Bean ball etiquette?

Well, I guess with all of the retaliatory "beaning" some on this thread are praising their players and sons for...well, I guess Mr. Darwin is at work again. 

I didn't justify anything. I never said anything about hitting a kid in the head being good. i said that obviously keeping your mouth shut is mandatory. I said that my kid hit the kid on the hip and he deserved it and I was fine with it. I didnt instruct anything but to keep your mouth shut. That still seems correct to me.  

Some other posted went off on how a pitcher is going to miss and throw the head shot.

i simply said that with the helmets today the head is very well protected... I think that is pretty self evident. We have all seen multiple kids get hit in the head and balls go shooting off to the side. 

You are making a HUGE leap to accuse me of saying that it should happen, wanting it to happen and supporting it to happen. The fact of the matter that is - that leap is totally incorrect but you didn't have the comprehension to get past The obvious disagreement you have.

as far respect the game. Yep that statement I stand by, believe and support. I believe anyone that has played or coached against or with me would agree. 

^^^^

Speechless. 

i simply said that with the helmets today the head is very well protected... I think that is pretty self evident. We have all seen multiple kids get hit in the head and balls go shooting off to the side

This has to be one of the nuttiest things I've ever seen posted on any message board...anywhere.

Just to be clear, I do in fact know a young man who was intentionally hit by a pitch (in the head)...while wearing a state-of-the-art batting helmet.  After he could barely walk off the field (with assistance) he was taken to one of the world's great hospitals.  Thankfully, he is a highly functioning adult, but he has ringing in the ears from the incident and the doctors tell him it will never, ever go away.

Nope, not my son.

I would be pretty sure that the highly skilled pitcher that hit him did not intend to hit him in the head, but he missed and he did and this young man will pay for it forever.

Yea. I understand - it is amazing the levels to which so many people overreact. 

How about  incredulous?  I would not want any player or anyone's son to be playing a HS or college(or any game for that matter) where the risk of head injury from being hit by a thrown baseball is minimized in the way this post comes across.

I have a friend who, in his 40's, told me about the time a guy in HS punched him at his locker, and he didn't retaliate. To this day he feels a sense of shame. No one likes that feeling, and young athletes are probably more likely to want to get even than most, when they feel they've been disrespected -- on or off the field.

In one sense, that's good, isn't it? None of us wants to raise boys who can't or won't defend themselves, their principles, their teammates or people they love when necessary, right? We're able to debate here, after all, because young men like ours who didn't know us chose to fight and die for us.

So philosophically, I understand you, Stro.

That said, I cannot agree with you.

The thing is, this is baseball. It's not life or death. And yet as evidence shows ... it can be, if young men are permitted to act out their aggression as you describe.

Yes, the odds against a catastrophic outcome are high. And sure, batting helmets help.

But while young men who have to hurt, maim or kill for real ... live with what we hope is a clear conscience ... Coach May's perspective cannot be ignored, and is one you might ask your son:

"Can you live with intentionally throwing at a kid and it all goes wrong?"

So is the argument that the head is not well protected? I understand a kid could get hurt but that doesn't mean the head is not well protected.

plus where a few of you are going off on where you seem to think I feel it is ok to throw at the head. I never said that anywhere. 

Well put and a good question. Would throwing high and inside while ahead the count and missing lead to any different outcome? You are not intentionally going after his head just setting up the next pitch. In reality you would have to miss by more while throwing at the hip then the above? Could you live with either one? Should you never throw inside?

A miss is a miss - the head was never the target.

There's a difference between "shit happens" and "making shit happen." It's a shame not only can you not see the difference, you are actually in favor of the latter.

Old school - failed argument,....one has intent to hit the batter, the other is hitting a spot. I can live with the consequences of missing a spot, but I can't live with missing the hip, and hitting the head.  In fact, intentionally hitting any body part is wrong.

Plus is anyone really selling the fact that they are REALLY gaining anything by doing so.  I ain't buying that you are changing any behavior by doing so, especially if like some are advocating, a "love tap" on the hip or thigh.  Nah, I still ain't buying it!

The difference is unknown because we would never talk about it!! in either case there is no intent to throw at the head, it is a miss.

Ah, yes. It's only wrong if someone else knows about it. I forgot that part of ethical decision-making.

Old School: You're absolutely right. Outcomes cannot always be controlled. We all learn that at some point.

But we also learn, whether we like it or not, that intentions can be.

And when the outcome is catastrophic, intention is everything for people with a conscience, isn't it?

LOL you are really up tight that was obvious sarcasm on the not talking about it. Sadly that is our legal system dictating that. 

The miss is a miss part was totally legit. I honestly think some of you aren't not being with yourselves 

Obviously, it wasn't obvious.

Interesting question. yes I agree with you but there was no intent to throw at the head. I believe there is a difference. 

Originally Posted by old_school:

You seem to have missed the video I posted earlier of a Major League pitcher hitting a Major League batter in the head. I'm sure that pitcher was aiming there.. or did he miss his spot? Things happen. I can live with that. I can't live with the mentality of "my kid will do it whether I say to or not."

Oh BTW... what happened to that batter anyway? I thought he was "well-protected" in the head??? And regardless, NO helmet can protect brain injuries. Can they help? Sure, but they cannot prevent movement of the brain inside of the skull...

For those who think it's okay for HS pitchers to deliberately throw at batters because they have appointed themselves the enforcers of justice, sportsmanship, and fraternal order within baseball:

If you really believe your sense of baseball's unwritten rules trumps your responsibility as an adult for the safety of children, and you aren't dissuaded by the risk of injury, ejection, suspension, lawsuits, or prosecution, please consider one last appeal to your own self interest.

Whenever I competed at anything in life--doesn't matter whether it was football, baseball, chess, love, or money--if I could get my adversary to concentrate on things around the game rather than the game itself, I generally figured I was well on my way to victory.  And whenever I knew my opponent could be provoked into putting the game behind his pursuit of peripheral issues, I would exploit his propensity to be distracted from the real prize.

Now maybe you find baseball easy.  Maybe wins come so easily that you can focus on all the peripheral macho posturing around the game and still dominate your opponents in the game.  But if you're like most people, baseball is a challenging enough game that you don't have the spare brain cells, physical energy, and emotional reserve to both play the game effectively and be the culture policeman on the beat.  

You may think you're "protecting" your team.  You may think you're standing up for the history of the game.  But there's a good chance you're being manipulated on occasion by opposing teams that recognize your pride as the vulnerability it is.  You probably are not increasing your chance of winning close, hard fought important games.

Old school,

answer this question, and I'll understand you, perfectly:

you are not for throwing at the head, however you are ok with inflicting intentional physical pain on other body parts, against amateur teenage boys, right?

If your answer is yes, then I have no other comments or advice, other than to say this:

I don't often talk about BFS, jr., however he is a very talented 2017 LHP pitcher, and I expect to watch him play this game at a high level for a few more years.  He has been put in these situations before, and even let his emotions in the heat of a game get the best of him, where he thought about it.  What makes me the most proud, is not so much that he can light up the radar, has an absolute + wipeout slider, was offered as a Freshman, and just last night while pitching the game of his life, he hit a 380' bomb, to give his team the lead in a district deciding game....that stuff was cool, but what makes me proud, is knowing that as a Fresh LHP standing 6'1 / 180 lbs., he throws hard enough to break bones, and knowing that, has always given him pause when an opposing team had an idiot acting like a fool.  He has a conscious, so my pride is hoping I had something to do with that.

I LOVE this, swamps. Damn true.

Wouldn't want to play you in poker.

So if I'm understanding you, if you have a pitcher aim for the hip to hit him for a bruise and a lesson but the hitter gets injured that's ok because it wasn't your intent to injure him.

(Honest judge I was aiming over his head. I didn't mean to shoot him in the heart. Actually I forgot, you're not going to admit to it. So you're innocent)

I'm amazed anyone can have such low ethics and lack of conscious to think they had no part in anything going wrong because it wasn't their intent. If you can sleep at night with no conscious morality good luck to you. This is the psychological make up of mass murderers.

Wow! 

Either the above or you're a troll trying to light up the board.

Jack Hamilton was never the same as a pitcher after hitting Tony Conigliaro in the face. He wasn't trying to hit him. He was backing him off the plate which is part of the game. But someone here wouldn't have a second thought if throwing at a hitter went wrong because injury wasn't the intent.

OK I think we have finally touched on what this is all about for the bean ball advocates. It's about protecting your manhood. The coach using a young man to protect his in some cases. And the players their own in other cases. And in some cases both. The premise being that if you don't retaliate, enforce, react to their disrespect of you and or your team then they are somehow taking your manhood from you.

As a retired law enforcement officer I investigated and responded to numerous homicides and serious incidents during that time for the same reasoning. They dissed me. Or they dissed my mom. Etc etc. Many of these dissed individuals ended up dead. Many ended up in jail. Many times lives were ruined and changed forever because they were just protecting their manhood or challenged someone's manhood.

Coaches and parents should be teaching young men that the only person that can take your manhood from you is you. That it takes a man to react to a situation like a man. And reacting in retaliation for another person's ignorance is childlike behavior. Instead we have parents of players and coaches who have no clue. They actually think they are teaching their young players how to act like a man by acting like a child.

Bow out your chest and show them. Show them your a man. Your going to teach them a lesson. Your going to order a kid to throw at a kid. Your going to throw at another kid to show them your a man. Instead of simply playing the game and showing restraint you stoop to level of the opponent to show them your a man. When your son or player takes that same mentality to the real world and it all goes wrong own up to it. Be proud of the fact that you taught them that. How pathetic.

One of the all time greatest posts on this site Coach May.  

+ 1 Coach May.  You sir, get it, in baseball, and real life,...... and because baseball ends at some point for everyone, is what we hope the game teaches us...REAL LIFE LESSONS.

Yes you would. I stink at poker.  My pupils dilate in direct proportion to the quality of my hand, and I can't sit still when I'm holding good cards.  

I'll teach you how to avoid that.

Let me consider that offer, Matt.  Right now, awareness that I can't play is saving me a lot of money.  That could change if I suddenly thought I could play.  

RJM,

With all due respect to a poster whose opinion I have come to respect on the this site you are not understanding. Nowhere in this thread did I state that “I have pitcher aim” or hit a batter. I never said I was a proponent of bean ball wars. I am actually fairly neutral on them, I do believe that hitting a batter has a place in the game. I am open to discussion on at what level that starts to become part of it. You may disagree with that opinion but…there is a vast gap from disagreeing on that topic and what was your verbiage

“If you can sleep at night with no conscious morality good luck to you. This is the psychological makeup of mass murderers.”

Pretty sure if you go back read the entire thread you will change your mind – and if you don’t well whatever. I do assure you I am not a mass murderer, I have no terrorist ties, I don’t attend any neo Nazi meetings…I work, play golf, I watch baseball and cut the grass, I serve on the board of 2 local charities, I have sponsored baseball in my community since before my children were born and don’t envision I will stop when they are done playing, I owe a couple businesses and have been asked to run for public office… it is actually amazing I am wasting time with this conversation. The only reason I even respond to this is because you seem to be a reasonable guy as opposed to a couple others. I will give you the cliff notes below.

I said I didn’t have a problem with pitcher hitting a batter properly and I was going to have to have conversation with son about never saying anything to anyone if he does hit somebody again. That was posted due the lawsuit comments that were going on that the time. I hate attorneys with a passion (I guess that is fall out from being self-employed and paying the fees to protect yourself) From there somebody escalated that to being hit in the hands, wrist, broken bones or the head. I said that the head was a fair safe spot to be hit – reason being that helmets are very good, the vast majority of balls to the head are glancing blows from a moving head – be honest very few kids get head injuries from baseball…from there, it was taken to the face…not by me I was referring to the top part of the ‘HEAD’ which is used that word. I didn’t say ear, I didn’t say face I said the head was actually fairly safe!! Which it is.

From there the conversation turned to intent – we disagreed over intent. I believe a miss is a miss regardless if you are aiming high and inside to set up the next pitch or at the hip send a message…either in a resulting in a bad situation that was not intended. Again you can agree to disagree or just say I am wrong but the head was never the target. I also made some reference to nobody know what the intent was because you have to keep it to yourself…which again is the society we live in. If you say nothing there nothing that can be proved – plus in my opinion there was no intent because the target was the hip.

And from that point I became a mass murderer in the making, who shouldn’t be able to live with myself and all of the other comments that were posted.

YES I BELIEVE THERE IS A QUITE A BIT OF OVER REACTION GOING ON HERE

Over reaction?.......Only possibly,  but that's because we are talking about an issue that might happen if a pitcher beans a batter.....

but its clearly not an over reaction if we are talking about it after a bean ball goes tragically wrong....

I'm wondering then if these answers would be considered good ones...

• its old school baseball
• its the unwritten code
• he deserved it
• he wasn't trying to hurt him
• just sending a message
• kids will be kids
• it was nobody's fault but his own

or would the lies come out?

• it was just a tragic accident
• the ball slipped
• its the umpires fault for not putting a stop to it....
• we don't endorse that sort of unsportsmanlike play

see above - bolded to your hypothetical

This thread is pretty interesting.  You've got most everyone here trying to convince old_school to rethink his position on HS bean balls, but you have to give o_s credit... He's dug in.  

Ultimately the thread is like being Tony Soprano's lawyer... all the valid points made aren't going to persuade him do the right thing, just helping him to do a better job of covering his tracks.  Fuhgeddabowtit...

It's tough when you fall on the opposite side of an issue, disagreeing with so many posters who you like, follow and respect.  While I can't say I "side" with Old School and all he's said, I fall on the side where I just don't see what overreaction is necessary when a kid gets hit, especially below the waist.

If a kid gets hit in the head, face or area where something breaks, that is tragic whether intentional or not, agreed? But kids do get hit in games every day.  Mostly unintentionally.  And mostly, they have some bruising and soreness and they move on.

I've still asked the question, and never had it answered: does the INTENT matter if it is transferred? (legal definition)....we teach our kids to throw inside,sometimes high and inside either to move the kids feet, or to change his eye level when we follow it with low and away.  So I want my kid to throw 6 or 8 inches away from a hitter's chin, if he doesn't have pinpoint accuracy (and most high school kids don't) there is certainly the possibility of hitting that kid in the neck, head or face, yes?

Now if that same pitcher is trying to plunk a batter in the butt, who do you think is more likely to come near the head?  Come on, we all know the answer to that.  If you have a pitcher who is so inaccurate that he tries to throw below the waist and instead hits the kid in the head, that same pitcher is just as likely, or MORE likely to hit the batter when you call for a high inside FB, or even for a pitch at the top of the strike zone in the middle of the plate!

Again, I'm not condoning hitting players, but I just don't understand where the intent is an issue, other than with the responsibility of the coach or player who instigates it. If I called for hitting a player and he gets hurt, that will be on me, no question whatsoever.  If I called for my pitcher to throw at the hitters thigh, and he goes high and hits him in the head, I would also feel terrible that the kid got hit there.  But would I feel any worse than if I called for him to go high and inside and he hit him in the head?  No, I wouldn't.  In either event I would feel bad that what we tried to throw didn't go where it was supposed to and someone got hurt.

As I've noted before, I haven't called for a kid to hit another kid since I was a very young and inexperienced coach, many, many years ago.  And I can't imagine a situation now a days where I'd ever do it again.  But quite honestly, I cringe with some of my pitchers when we do call for a "high, inside" FB because i DO worry they might miss further inside and hit the kid.  I would be LESS worried about that happening if I wanted a pitcher to hit a kid in the thigh.  I really would, because I just don't think he'd miss 3 feet high....and if he was THAT wild, he'd probably be hitting kids all over the place!

Additionally, I don't have anyone who throws 85.  In fact, my hardest thrower is probably 80-81 on a good day. Does getting hit with a 75 mph fastball in the leg, butt, arm or back hurt? Yep.  Is it a risk that EVERY hitter takes when he steps in to the box? Yep.  I think baseball is just as dangerous as football, wrestling and hockey, where we all accept that there will be physical damage and pain inflicted on virtually ANY play or match, and players are TOLD to inflict pain (not to play dirty, mind you) but to do something that hurts the other player.  Isn't that infliction of pain an accepted parts of sports?

I know I throw out a lot of rhetorical questions here as part of the Socratic method (uh oh, another lawyer!), but I just see where there a few too many "absolutists" posting on both sides of the issue without opening their minds and seeing that there may be two sides to every position.

I "absolutely" think it is wrong to intentionally hit a batter at the HS level.  I think adults who call for it from their pitchers shouldn't be coaching kids (nor be running for office, even if asked).  And I am absolutely fine with my 'absolutist' attitude about it.

No apologies…whatsoever.  

The thing is nowhere in the is thread did I say it was good, or that I liked it – only that it is a part of the game and I didn’t find it upsetting if done properly! From there it has taken on a life of its own based on speculation, some sarcasm to what I found to be obvious overreactions and some very sensitive people. Jeez i would have thought most if not all of you on here were ex athelets, you must have gotten killed in the locker room if you skin is this thin.

I am going to add a new account under the name Mass Murderer…that was awesome!!

Agreed.

Great post by Coach May.

These players are imitating what they see on TV.  Players are taught that under no circumstances should a pitcher intentionally hit a batter,  ESPECIALLY on the youth or HS level. 

Experienced pitchers give warnings by throwing behind the back or way up out of the zone but they have the control and the experience to do it and even make it look unintentional even if it is intentional.  When you get paid big time money to play the game or manage it, then you can make those decisions.

old_school,

You opened yourself up for criticism after you posted it was ok as long as the pitcher says nothing to anyone (my understanding).  With that thought then to me and most likely to others you are indirectly saying that it is ok. That's not ok.

Your son hit someone on the hip and you felt it was ok because the kid deserved it? That's crazy stuff.  Instead of worrying about where he is going to bean him, why not just have your son strike him out and show him who owns who?  That sends a much greater message.  While I agree that this happens often on the pro level, when watching the game most people have no clue what behind the scenes drama may be happening.  Besides in case you haven't noticed, the game is changing, there are more pitchers being tossed,  penalties  and suspensions getting handed out even for intent.  These guys get paid millions and the new_school thinking is that I don't want to not get a return on my investment. I think that in college the coaches can get penalized.

This absolutely has no place in the level that your son is at. Tell your son to stop thinking he is a big leaguer.

High and inside for a pitch, then the pitcher is doing his job, high and inside as retaliation is completely different.

FWIW, having a son who has played pro ball I see both sides, but this is HS baseball and that side I am not on.

JMO

Yes, you can hit someone pitching inside.  

The big difference is with one you are not throwing to hit someone on purpose.  Whether one yields more risk of serious injury or not, they both have risk, and clearly there is only one case where if something does goes wrong, the conscious remains clear.  That should be the litmus test, since either can go wrong.