Biggest Change from HS to College as a Pitcher

@adbono posted:

100% correct, Bob. When I played I was a guy that liked to shake off pitches. Sometimes I did it for effect and sometimes I wanted to throw a different pitch. Our starting C didn’t like that so the backup C caught when I pitched b/c he didn’t care. Our starting C didn’t know how to call my game. He didn’t understand how I set up hitters. He only knew one way to call a game and that worked fine for our top 2 guys who went on to have very respectable big league careers. But it didn’t work for most of the rest of us as we didn’t have the same amount of talent. I recall a game during my senior year when I didn’t have my best stuff and I was trying anything to get outs. A really good hitter was at the plate and I shook off every sign to get back to the original pitch that was called. Sometime during that process I heard a loud comment from the opposing teams dugout - “what the hell are you doing? You don’t have that many pitches!”

LOL! You brought make a memory. I shook off the curve. Then I thought I should have gone with it. I shook off signs with the intention of the catcher coming back around to the curve. Instead, he called time. He took three steps in front of the plate and yelled at me, “You only have three effing pitches. Now effing pick one!” This is what happens when a freshman shakes off a junior.

@TPM posted:

Pitchers have different mentalities. Some make better starters some make better relievers, some are better set up guys, but it all depends on their "stuff".  I don't agree with giving a guy only one chance as a starter or leaving a young pitcher in the BP for 100 pitches.

I came into the discussion because sometimes it just boggles my mind what goes on in college baseball.

This has turned into a good topic with a lot of input.

Parents and future players do your homework.

Because it's not going to get easier.

One weekend I dropped in at a P5:game. The park was between the mall and our home. I saw a game and stopped. When I went to these games I was scoping out the opponent for future potential for my son. There was no way in hell he would play within biking distance of home. Plus the home team was mediocre on their good days.

I chatted up parents for information. One asked if my son was a pitcher or position player. Freshman year of high school was a little early to know. Then he handed me a stat sheet. He asked me if I saw anything unusual.

The starters had a disproportionate number of innings even for starters and high ERA’s. The relievers had a disproportionately small number of innings for college ball.

The parent told me if my son has starting pitcher potential to stay far away from the school where his son was pitching. Starting pitcher pitch counts were absurd. His son was a Sunday starter.

@d-mac posted:

Van Horn is on record that Opitz and James McCann called pitches at Arkansas. There is a recent podcast where he went into detail all of the ways teams tried to hit Kopps. Move up in the box, crowd plate, take 1st pitch, swing 1st pitch etc and all of the ways Opitz combatted that.

I can certainly say that Koch didn't call the games when my kid was on the bump for Arkansas - between getting the sign from the dugout, relaying it and my kid's cadence it seemed a lengthy process. There was at least one clock violation...

@JucoDad posted:

I can certainly say that Koch didn't call the games when my kid was on the bump for Arkansas - between getting the sign from the dugout, relaying it and my kid's cadence it seemed a lengthy process. There was at least one clock violation...

I don't think Wes would ever turn over pitch calling duties to a catcher.     

@d-mac posted:

I don't think Wes would ever turn over pitch calling duties to a catcher.     

I agree. I can’t imagine any college coach whose job status is dependent on winning turning pitch calling duties to a catcher.

Adbono;

Personally, I think it is a "team" effort!

The College Coach trains his catchers to be aware weakness & strength's  of the hitter at the plate, the "on deck" hitter, the game situation, the weather, defense alignment, the umpire, the score. The catcher know the pitcher's ability today.

Is his "fastball" heavy; is his curve breaking "sharp"; is he confident on one, 2 or 3 pitches.

When Nolan Ryan spoke at the College Coaches Convention, 1,000 coaches listened intently with admiration.

Bob

Son was FB CB guy and handled most teams faced during HS. Junior year 84-86/88 to Senior year 90-93/95 guy with plus CB.

Started 6 games as Freshman at Clemson coming off a fall where he dominated lives and scrimmages and there were some injuries in the rotation, he went 3 and 2. Dominated non division games and struggled in two ACC games, Ga Tech and Fla State. Surgery for broken bone in hand (pithed with it that season) that following summer and moved to BP in 2017 and 18 and flourished there. Big change for him, acclimating to that was up to him and it wasn't easy. Get hot was the call....how you do that and transition into  the game successfully isn't easy and there is NO handbook or coach who can help you with it.

I saw this while he was there, good to very good pitcher who could not perform when given the chance were moved to the back of the list, pitchers with more experience (upper classmen) were given more chances, even when they struggled. Winning is what its about, get ready for more competition  every season and you better perform or you may find yourself missing the bus rides to away games.

My son seems to do better the bigger the game.  He sometimes struggles in mid-week games that are blow outs.  I don't know if it is lack of focus or just needs adrenaline rush to compete.  His biggest games were the high profile SEC or big moment games, even mid-week games when it is against a tough mid major and game is really close.  He has done really good in the big moment games.    He says part of it is when the game is a big game he knows he has to get ready fast and can't miss much but when it is not as big the rotation changes and they seem to give everybody more leash so it is get warm, then get hot really fast.

I may still be wrong but I am going with this guy:

Tom House

@tomhouse

Calling your own game as a pitcher and catcher shouldn’t be a privilege. Give kids the ability to fail. Give them the experience to learn! If you force all your pitchers and catchers to throw exactly what you say, you’re taking a key part of the mental game away from them.

Good Knight;

Tom House spoke to our 320 Area Code players, 300 pro scouts 124 College coaches and parents at a Clinic I organized at Jack Murphy Stadium.

Unknown to all involved at 11 am, a Navy "plane" appeared over the Stadium and six Navy seals in black jump suits parachute into the Stadium outfield.

My best Promotion.

Bob

I met Tom House at spring training in Arizona when I was in my twenties.

Me: Are you Tom House?

Him: Yes. Who are you? How do you know my name?

Me: I remember when you were supposed to be the savior of the Red Sox bullpen.

Him. (He laughed). I’m surprised you know my last name. After a week when I was announced the booing was so loud you couldn’t hear my last name.

I'm going with the 30 year pitching coach who says "Why would you leave any more of your job fate in the hands of 18-22 year olds than you have to.  It is hard enough to get them to take batting practice, go to class, learn what they have to know to make good grades, and work on their catching skills.  Why would I add in the hours of video and information that I watch on each batter for the other team to know what pitch to throw?  I can put that information on a piece of paper and I would expect them to memorize it? Plus having to know what pitches that 15 different guys throw.   I would never expect that much of a college kid to spend hours each week memorizing the tendencies of 3-5 teams a week."

@PitchingFan posted:

I'm going with the 30 year pitching coach who says "Why would you leave any more of your job fate in the hands of 18-22 year olds than you have to.  It is hard enough to get them to take batting practice, go to class, learn what they have to know to make good grades, and work on their catching skills.  Why would I add in the hours of video and information that I watch on each batter for the other team to know what pitch to throw?  I can put that information on a piece of paper and I would expect them to memorize it? Plus having to know what pitches that 15 different guys throw.   I would never expect that much of a college kid to spend hours each week memorizing the tendencies of 3-5 teams a week."

I couldn’t have said that better myself.

@PitchingFan posted:

I'm going with the 30 year pitching coach who says "Why would you leave any more of your job fate in the hands of 18-22 year olds than you have to.  It is hard enough to get them to take batting practice, go to class, learn what they have to know to make good grades, and work on their catching skills.  Why would I add in the hours of video and information that I watch on each batter for the other team to know what pitch to throw?  I can put that information on a piece of paper and I would expect them to memorize it? Plus having to know what pitches that 15 different guys throw.   I would never expect that much of a college kid to spend hours each week memorizing the tendencies of 3-5 teams a week."

good coaches work hard and know what they are doing. From the above statement math is not one of those skills.

Explain please.

Tom House and Wes Johnson in the same thread…

Tom was a big part of my son’s baseball maturation process and I’m thankful for his influence in arm care, nutrition, and mental aspects of pitching. He’s a polarizing figure in the industry based on his views, I can only say that his input and guidance influenced my son in a very positive way since HS.

Wes was also a big part of my son’s journey, during both their single year at Arkansas. Wes, also polarizing as some blame him for arm issues that plagued Mississippi State. I can say that Wes’ program was like what my son was already doing on his own. This was a big change from juco, where Trev did his own workouts after practice (an activity that created some conflict). Regardless, Wes is all about science and positivity and was another positive influence in my kids journey.

Do I think Wes or Van Horn would let a catcher call the game? Certainly, a mid-week game or a series blowout sure… If things were tight, I don’t think there’s any strategy that coaches can control being put on the players shoulders at most college programs.  

@PitchingFan, I realize I’ve help drift this thread off topic and never actually answered the initial question. My apologies , I think this is what you were asking:

My son pitched in youth ball, but not in HS until his senior year. He was a thrower, touching low 90’s and not much else. He was used as a closer or stopper, he would typically come in mid inning, going from a corner position to the mound. He’d heat up playing catch while the coach talked to the current pitcher and waiting for the blue to walk out, and then Trev would get his warmups and throw.

In college he needed to learn how to pitch and leverage the unique things each pitcher has for an advantage (for him, velo, long stride, high spin, release point, etc). He got hammered for a while, but his velo improved along with his understanding of how to pitch. That combination with good coaching and physical/mental conditioning got him from juco to D1 – where he went from a closer to a starter.

Last year he went back to a relieving and enjoyed bullpen culture and comradery. Now the lockout is over, the proving himself starts anew, and he’s blessed for the opportunity.

@PitchingFan posted:

I'm going with the 30 year pitching coach who says "Why would you leave any more of your job fate in the hands of 18-22 year olds than you have to.  It is hard enough to get them to take batting practice, go to class, learn what they have to know to make good grades, and work on their catching skills.  Why would I add in the hours of video and information that I watch on each batter for the other team to know what pitch to throw?  I can put that information on a piece of paper and I would expect them to memorize it? Plus having to know what pitches that 15 different guys throw.   I would never expect that much of a college kid to spend hours each week memorizing the tendencies of 3-5 teams a week."

This is definetly true. Both hitting and pitching coaches spend hours preparing for games so that they are familiar with the opposing team.

Hours. Especially in the beginning of the season.

With the addition of electronics, things have changed, but the catcher still needs to be able to make decisions, especially if he is an early draft consideration. 

I would agree that they need the ability.  Ours lets them do it in the fall, or at least at the end of the fall this year with 3 new catchers.  But I can never imagine letting them do it in an SEC game.  They may let a guy call a mid week game but not the conference games.  I'm sure there are some coaches that do it but I would say they are in the minority.  I know lower level college coaches who do not do scouting reports.  Just don't have time with all the extra stuff that smaller schools put on those coaches like teaching classes or other administrative duties.

Video has definetly made it easier. Plus teams get scouting reports from other coaches, scouts, etc.

It gets easier, coaches become familiar year to year with players within the conference or in close proximity that play each other often.

JMO

(I realize I’m echoing what’s already been said here)

My D3 freshman son’s roommate is a pitcher.  He grew up in California.  Even in a baseball hotbed in high school he could occasionally leave one a little too much over the plate and (especially if it was the bottom half of the order) get away with it, even more so if it had some velocity.

In college, and yes even in D3, that pitch gets hammered by the entire lineup, and even more so if it’s a fastball that doesn’t move much.  

The other thing is in college, you aren’t going to get ahead in the count by simply throwing a fastball on the first pitch.  College hitters are hunting that and will either barrel up that pitch or get replaced

All this talk about calling one's own pitches.....  I remember reading Ted Williams saying Pitchers are the dumbest guys on the field, because they don't change anything and are way too predictable....  I took extreme offense to that and the retort to myself while reading that was,  No, catchers and coaches are.

I have had a few conversations with my son, that If he's not charting hitters in league play while he's not playing, he's not helping himself and Freshman year, he should have plenty of time to do that.

That said, his observations of biggest changes HS to College... way better coaches and more serious teammates.