I'm simply saying that you do not want to come around the ball...that is all......
quote:Originally posted by LOW337:
Maybe this will help, Info....
By moving the head I am referring to it moving side to side... BEFORE you release the ball....
Clearly, all 5 pitchers move their head to the side before they release the ball.
Choosing descriptors is very important, and trying to illustrate actions (verbally) can be very difficult. As well, a cue that results in an affirmative response or action by one person does not mean that cue works for all.
Richard…this forum is not the place for you to try to save the throwing world from "the establishment" by ridiculing participant’s and/or their statements.
I encourage debate, but I discourage the constant badgering and attempted belittling (by you) toward every person that doesn’t word their thoughts exactly as you think they should word them.
If you continue with this style of posting, then things will change.
Richard…this forum is not the place for you to try to save the throwing world from "the establishment" by ridiculing participant’s and/or their statements.
I encourage debate, but I discourage the constant badgering and attempted belittling (by you) toward every person that doesn’t word their thoughts exactly as you think they should word them.
If you continue with this style of posting, then things will change.
Wow yhis had gotten interesting if not confusing.
TJ's head is very steady and moves to the target. He normally stays down a little longer but his foot falls off the mound and brings him up early after release. On a ball diamond he finishes in a BFP position allowing him to face the plate and move in any direction.
To me head movement is when you turn your head away from the target in order to get more power and I don't see that here.
Some things have been pointed out that need attention but his coach may have worked on them already.
TJ has been used to demonstarate proper pitching mechanics by MLB scouts and the pitching coach of Team Ontario. PG knows this gentleman very well.
Shep I hope you weren't referring to me about ESTAB bashing. I love all the establishments.
TJ doses what the coach standing in front of him tells him to do.
TJ's head is very steady and moves to the target. He normally stays down a little longer but his foot falls off the mound and brings him up early after release. On a ball diamond he finishes in a BFP position allowing him to face the plate and move in any direction.
To me head movement is when you turn your head away from the target in order to get more power and I don't see that here.
Some things have been pointed out that need attention but his coach may have worked on them already.
TJ has been used to demonstarate proper pitching mechanics by MLB scouts and the pitching coach of Team Ontario. PG knows this gentleman very well.
Shep I hope you weren't referring to me about ESTAB bashing. I love all the establishments.
TJ doses what the coach standing in front of him tells him to do.
no no Bobble...not at all referenceing you into that category, at all. Quite the opposite in fact 
Shep
Shep
quote:Originally posted by LOW337:
I never the said the head doesn't move....you just want to avoid any violent head jerking and spinning or flying off of the pitch at least untill you release it.....
Thats what i meant people
forget i said anything. This guy had great mechanicsI was looking at Jake peavy right now, and he keept his head on target and DIDN'T violent jerk it.
quote:Originally posted by Shepster:quote:think you move your head a little too much. Most good pitchers hardly move their head throughout the whole delivery. They dont pull it to the opposite side
BTW,
This is the post by Smokey that I was referring...
Shep
LOL i meant a violent jerk. You head moves but it's not a violent jerk to the ground
smokky1
Glad you cleared that up for us and apologize in advance for miscommunication.
Shep
Glad you cleared that up for us and apologize in advance for miscommunication.
Shep
See that's what the prolem is really. People using words that possibly do not describe what they are thinking or how they are trying to teach.
These "keep head steady" threads strike a nerve with me because I went to a clinic clinic with my son, and this college "coach" (who also happens to be a scout) teaches this head to the target junk, spews all the Tom House nonesense, towel drill up the wha zoo, and has my sons entire high school team fooled basically (for lack of a better word). Possibly a good portion of our community.
He's teaching kids that their throws (using their arms), should be akin to sitting in a pec deck machine when they throw. It looks laughable when you see him demonstrate it.
When he sees one kid who's head tilts to the side when they throw....."oh no...see...you gotta fix that!".
And yet, people here think he is going to save them and lead them into the throwing promised land. They are throwing money at this fraud. They don't know, that they don't know and it's sad. What's worse is that he is screwing up a lot of kids, and making their parents spend a lot of money with the hope that they may "make it" one day because of his connections.
These "keep head steady" threads strike a nerve with me because I went to a clinic clinic with my son, and this college "coach" (who also happens to be a scout) teaches this head to the target junk, spews all the Tom House nonesense, towel drill up the wha zoo, and has my sons entire high school team fooled basically (for lack of a better word). Possibly a good portion of our community.
He's teaching kids that their throws (using their arms), should be akin to sitting in a pec deck machine when they throw. It looks laughable when you see him demonstrate it.
When he sees one kid who's head tilts to the side when they throw....."oh no...see...you gotta fix that!".
And yet, people here think he is going to save them and lead them into the throwing promised land. They are throwing money at this fraud. They don't know, that they don't know and it's sad. What's worse is that he is screwing up a lot of kids, and making their parents spend a lot of money with the hope that they may "make it" one day because of his connections.
quote:Originally posted by RobV:
See that's what the prolem is really. People using words that possibly do not describe what they are thinking or how they are trying to teach.
These "keep head steady" threads strike a nerve with me because I went to a clinic clinic with my son, and this college "coach" (who also happens to be a scout) teaches this head to the target junk, spews all the Tom House nonesense, towel drill up the wha zoo, and has my sons entire high school team fooled basically (for lack of a better word). Possibly a good portion of our community.
He's teaching kids that their throws (using their arms), should be akin to sitting in a pec deck machine when they throw. It looks laughable when you see him demonstrate it.
When he sees one kid who's head tilts to the side when they throw....."oh no...see...you gotta fix that!".
And yet, people here think he is going to save them and lead them into the throwing promised land. They are throwing money at this fraud. They don't know, that they don't know and it's sad. What's worse is that he is screwing up a lot of kids, and making their parents spend a lot of money with the hope that they may "make it" one day because of his connections.
It's obvious that his head isn't looking at the left side dugout
http://www.padresnation.com/players/jakepeavyII.JPG
http://images.sportsline.com/u/photos/baseball/mlb/img7310772.jpg
http://images.chron.com/content/news/photos/03/08/31/peavy.jpg
LOL i'm sorry i ever brought this up. The kid has very good mechanics. And will get very good.
In the video clip that started this group snit, I don't see much head tilt in the first place.
Head tilt is NOT a good thing. There are a whole host of reasons, some dealing with control, some with injury prevention. Still, lots of effective pitchers have it. You wouldn't want to teach it, any more than you would teach a young hitter to copy Julio Franco's stance or swing, but clearly some people are capable of having departures from standard form and still doing well.
One thing I would note is that head tilt often accompanies a dragging throwing arm. In fact, the dragging arm will result in the ball's being delivered off the plate to the arm side (to the left-handed batter's box for a lefty) unless either the drag is corrected or some other accommodation is made. Most kids start pulling their torso to the glove side, leading with their head, to compensate for the dragging arm.
The best cure is to get the arm up and out front sooner, so that the head is behind the hand. If you do this, the head will be more straight on to the plate. In other words, instead of solving one problem (arm drag) with another mistake (head pull), you're better served if you fix the original problem and eliminate the need to compensate.
Again, in the video, there is only a modest amount of arm drag going on, and thus, only a slight head pull. In this particular pitcher I don't see much cause for alarm, and if he has good arm health and is effective, why mess with success?
Head tilt is NOT a good thing. There are a whole host of reasons, some dealing with control, some with injury prevention. Still, lots of effective pitchers have it. You wouldn't want to teach it, any more than you would teach a young hitter to copy Julio Franco's stance or swing, but clearly some people are capable of having departures from standard form and still doing well.
One thing I would note is that head tilt often accompanies a dragging throwing arm. In fact, the dragging arm will result in the ball's being delivered off the plate to the arm side (to the left-handed batter's box for a lefty) unless either the drag is corrected or some other accommodation is made. Most kids start pulling their torso to the glove side, leading with their head, to compensate for the dragging arm.
The best cure is to get the arm up and out front sooner, so that the head is behind the hand. If you do this, the head will be more straight on to the plate. In other words, instead of solving one problem (arm drag) with another mistake (head pull), you're better served if you fix the original problem and eliminate the need to compensate.
Again, in the video, there is only a modest amount of arm drag going on, and thus, only a slight head pull. In this particular pitcher I don't see much cause for alarm, and if he has good arm health and is effective, why mess with success?
I am surprised that you would be so bitter towards Tom House. His method are excellent and we have not given him a nickel. We take his books out every spring from the local library. His approach is generally referred to as Tall & Fall. I know lots of pitchers who use this approach and are very successful.
The other approach is Drop & Drive which suits a lot of pitchers as well. I recommend the Louisville Slugger book called everything you kneed to know about pitching. This book gives a wide range of views and is a great read. This book gives several frame by frame looks at MLB pitchers and their mechanics.
I was curious why you think it is a fraud ?
The other approach is Drop & Drive which suits a lot of pitchers as well. I recommend the Louisville Slugger book called everything you kneed to know about pitching. This book gives a wide range of views and is a great read. This book gives several frame by frame looks at MLB pitchers and their mechanics.
I was curious why you think it is a fraud ?
That's Jake Peavey. Take a look at VIDEO of others like Nolan Ryan.
I'm not bitter towards Tom House (although I don't think his methods are that great), I'm more dismayed at the local guy here using his methods and conning people that don't know any better. Using his "status" as a means of getting people to pay him, regardless of what he's teaching.
I think there are much better ways to optimally throw a baseball.
I'm not bitter towards Tom House (although I don't think his methods are that great), I'm more dismayed at the local guy here using his methods and conning people that don't know any better. Using his "status" as a means of getting people to pay him, regardless of what he's teaching.
I think there are much better ways to optimally throw a baseball.
quote:Originally posted by RobV:
That's Jake Peavey. Take a look at VIDEO of others like Nolan Ryan.
I'm not bitter towards Tom House (although I don't think his methods are that great), I'm more dismayed at the local guy here using his methods and conning people that don't know any better. Using his "status" as a means of getting people to pay him, regardless of what he's teaching.
I think there are much better ways to optimally throw a baseball.
I have seen video
Oh god...
Tom House and Molan Ryan are co authers of several books.
I understand but there is no need to spend huge amounts of money. We used books to get started and had various coaches tweak TJ's mechanics. We had different opinions from top level coaches and listened to all of them. He did what was comfortable for him. A college player who helped coach his varsity team tried to totally change his mechanics. He asked me what to do and I told him to try his method. He tried it but reverted back to his original motion during the games. The college guy was trying to help but TJ was not comfortable with the motion.
House's method may not be right for your guy but it won't hurt him either. The pitching motion is not a natural motion and you have to find what works for you. It may take time to adjust. I know lots of guys who went to a very qualified pitching coach and said they pitched worse than before they started.
I understand but there is no need to spend huge amounts of money. We used books to get started and had various coaches tweak TJ's mechanics. We had different opinions from top level coaches and listened to all of them. He did what was comfortable for him. A college player who helped coach his varsity team tried to totally change his mechanics. He asked me what to do and I told him to try his method. He tried it but reverted back to his original motion during the games. The college guy was trying to help but TJ was not comfortable with the motion.
House's method may not be right for your guy but it won't hurt him either. The pitching motion is not a natural motion and you have to find what works for you. It may take time to adjust. I know lots of guys who went to a very qualified pitching coach and said they pitched worse than before they started.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
...You wouldn't want to teach it, any more than you would teach a young hitter to copy Julio Franco's stance or swing, but clearly some people are capable of having departures from standard form and still doing well.
...
A kernel of wisdom.
BobbleheadDoll,
I'm curious why you posted the clip of your son. You sound happy with his mechanics and his production on the mound so why did you have cap_n post the clip?
I'm just wondering what exactly you're after.
Jason
I'm curious why you posted the clip of your son. You sound happy with his mechanics and his production on the mound so why did you have cap_n post the clip?
I'm just wondering what exactly you're after.
Jason
Flip I am very happy with his mechanics. Is he perfect ? No !
I wanted other peoples imput and I got some good discussion. I agree with some negatives and not others. This is a moote question because the only thing that matters is his college coaches imput.
Can I ask you the same question ?
I'm just wondering what exactly you're after ?
I wanted other peoples imput and I got some good discussion. I agree with some negatives and not others. This is a moote question because the only thing that matters is his college coaches imput.
Can I ask you the same question ?
I'm just wondering what exactly you're after ?
I'm after the truth and I think I got it. I made an assumption that you were looking for advice to help your son improve. I was wrong.
Good luck!
Jason
Good luck!
Jason
I think for the most part the discussion has been very good. It is very interesting to see what others think.
Hey, I wish your son nothing but the best. You should post an updated clip of him down the road. It might be an interesting before and after to see what kind of progress he's making.
Take care!
Jason
Take care!
Jason
Good idea if I ever get to see him again. Maybe in the summer.
I hope your son continues to grow and get stronger. I have watched this clip many times and I would like to offer you some free advice. It looks as if your son may have been over-gurued. The angle of this clip makes it hard to tell exactly, but when his right knee pumps up it could pump back more over the rubber, while closing the lead shoulder more as well. This can help create more power. Also the knee is pumping up, then going straight down, then going out toward the plate. The knee is meant to pump back, closing off your lead hip, and leading toward the plate with your back pocket. This windup appears to have the power of a slide step. Your sons arm works well, and I bet you know that theres more juice in that delivery. If he throws 84 while not using his bodys leverage to its full potential then WOW, thats gas. Anytime you get lessons for someone the intructor has a vested intrest to make a change. If you show up and there is nothing wrong with your sons delivery, and no need to make any changes, are you going to continue to pay for his services?....thats where the vested intrest comes in....good luck with the upcoming season.
Dee thanks for the advice. Your comments are similar to BBscouts before he removed his posts. That is a point that I have mentioned to him.
His college coach has made some minor changes but I am not clear on what he has done. I tend to be hands off at this level.
He has only had 4 sessions at 15 with a private paid pitching coach. All thye other coaches have been part of his teams program.
He needs a lot of physical development to sqeeze some more MPH out.
His college coach has made some minor changes but I am not clear on what he has done. I tend to be hands off at this level.
He has only had 4 sessions at 15 with a private paid pitching coach. All thye other coaches have been part of his teams program.
He needs a lot of physical development to sqeeze some more MPH out.
Sometimes velocity developes late in pitchers, and hopefully his teams pitching coaches are making the most of his ability. Take care.
I agree that "sometimes" velocity develops late in pitchers. But I also believe that "many" times it does not.quote:Originally posted by DeeMack:
Sometimes velocity developes late in pitchers
You don't throw hard throwing soft.
Jason
Flip I have seen several pitchers gain 5-6 + MPH over 4 years of college. I am leaving it to him and his coaches to get it out of him. I mentioned the comments and he is going to try a couple. I thought some tweaking might help.
He has no meat on his arms or legs and I feel 20lbs of muscle can't hurt.
If he can hit 83-84 I am sure he can get 88-89 by the end of college.
He has no meat on his arms or legs and I feel 20lbs of muscle can't hurt.
If he can hit 83-84 I am sure he can get 88-89 by the end of college.
You can throw hard throwing effortlessly though peace
Shep
peaceShep
Question:
Do you actually throw 90+ mph "effortlessly", or do you appear to throw 90+ mph effortlessly?
Do you actually throw 90+ mph "effortlessly", or do you appear to throw 90+ mph effortlessly?
Cap_n
Now that's a good question, sir. I appreciate you giving me a chance to clarify.
A 90s plus pitcher may appear to throw effortlessly but is just a optical illusion because body is actually working hard even though not noticable in mechanics if mechanics are good> That's what I mean by a pitcher who is able to throw hard effortlessly peace
Now that's a good question, sir. I appreciate you giving me a chance to clarify.
A 90s plus pitcher may appear to throw effortlessly but is just a optical illusion because body is actually working hard even though not noticable in mechanics if mechanics are good> That's what I mean by a pitcher who is able to throw hard effortlessly
peace....quote:... if mechanics are good>
I prefer efficient in place of good.
I've found the word "good" becomes very subjective
quote:I prefer efficient in place of good.
Cap_n,
If you really want to get technical in the semantics, proficient would even be better than efficient. peace
........heck no, not at all, butquote:If you really want to get technical in the semantics
............The notion (or illusion) that someone throws effortlessly at high velocity means that the thrower is getting the most velocity out of the least effort put in, or, their mechanics are efficient. After that, the hard part is repeating (or being proficient at) those effortless looking/efficient mechanics. I would rather have a pitcher proficient with efficient (effortless) mechanics over a pitcher proficient with inefficient (labored) mechanics.
Good Morning Cap_n and Board,
I absolutely agree 100 percent Cap_n.
Shep
I absolutely agree 100 percent Cap_n.
Shep
I have seen many 90+ throwers and to be honest you can hardly see the difference in terms of effort. Some have jerky motions and others smooth.
Jeff Francis of the Rockies is an example of a guy who threw 80 MPH at his senior HS level and could not get a US school to look at him. He went to the University Of British Columbia in Vanciuver and came out throwing 90mph. 6'5" LHP that worked hard and was drafted in the 1st round. I talk to the UBC coach often and he has told me the dedication this guy had and the gains he made. I am hoping my son who is also dedicated will do the same.
Jeff Francis of the Rockies is an example of a guy who threw 80 MPH at his senior HS level and could not get a US school to look at him. He went to the University Of British Columbia in Vanciuver and came out throwing 90mph. 6'5" LHP that worked hard and was drafted in the 1st round. I talk to the UBC coach often and he has told me the dedication this guy had and the gains he made. I am hoping my son who is also dedicated will do the same.
Shep - you have a pm.
Back at cha bro.peace,Shep
quote:Originally posted by FlippJ:I agree that "sometimes" velocity develops late in pitchers. But I also believe that "many" times it does not.quote:Originally posted by DeeMack:
Sometimes velocity developes late in pitchers
You don't throw hard throwing soft.
Jason
I don't see where DeeMack said anything about throwing soft.In fact, his statement about velocity developing late in pitchers is right on the money. I see more college pitchers throwing harder than high school sophomores.
I have no facts from any study but based on the guys I know most have picked up 5-6mph at college. Some like Francis 9-10mph.
There are lots of guys who are physically well developed before college who throw 85+. Some of them can pitch and some can't. When they reach college level the pitchers are separated from the throwers pretty quick.
There are lots of guys who are physically well developed before college who throw 85+. Some of them can pitch and some can't. When they reach college level the pitchers are separated from the throwers pretty quick.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I have no facts from any study but based on the guys I know most have picked up 5-6mph at college. Some like Francis 9-10mph.
There are lots of guys who are physically well developed before college who throw 85+. Some of them can pitch and some can't. When they reach college level the pitchers are separated from the throwers pretty quick.
Based on what you are saying, if son is throwing at 93, he should be 98 in another two years? I tend to doubt that.
There is NO guarantee that any pitcher will increase velocity in college. Some tend to think becoming more mature, added weight will do it. Like Flipp says, sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesn't. Most college coaches don't have time to wait for a pitcher to develop, what they do is teach them to effectively work with what they have and sometimes with that adjustment, velocity increases.
College does not seperate the pitchers from the throwers, that's why we have pro ball.
