Bonds is a Joke!! Mays, Aaron on Steriods.

How do steroids help endurance and reaction time?

LATEBLOOMER

The man has not been found guilty of anything

One still has to hit the ball !!!!! And that aint easy for anyone!!!

Do they also help you see the ball as clearly as Bonds obviously does? And do they improve eye-hand coordination?

700 bombs is no joke. His .370 BA is serious too. Don't be shocked when he goes to the AL to DH in two or three years and hits a hundred more before he hangs 'em up at 47 or 48 years old. I'm guessing peeen stripes for Barry.

Bonds is a great player no doubt. they talk about the steroid rumors etc etc etc but I wonder if Mays Ruth AAron and company would have benefitted by wearing armor on their arms as Bonds does. I know in my playing days I would have hung in there a little more with that protection. Any thoughts.

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Originally posted by TRhit:
LATEBLOOMER

The man has not been found guilty of anything

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Neither was OJ!

Does anyone here believe that steroids don't make you bigger and stronger?

Does anyone here believe that being bigger and stronger doesn't help you hit?

Does anyone still believe Bonds didn't do roids?

Another question although not as obvious as the other three, "Does anyone believe OJ didn't do it"?

No Bonds hasn't been convicted of anything. Then again how did those extemely talented but getting a bit long in the tooth BALCO clients do in the Olympics now that the IOC is testing for THG? I think if using the steroids Bonds may have used were a crime at the time a criminal jury would have to acquit given the current "evidence". A civil jury would probably find against him. Beyond a reasonable doubt - no. A preponderance of the evidence - yes.

It's obvious the originator of this thread never played above a slow pitch softball game.

Suspicion is not evidence...
Accusation is not evidence...
Slander is not evidence...

Consistency across a long career of excellence is evidence...

Who carries the heavier weight of preponderance, Bonds does...

Any decent lawyer could use his stats to get him off any silly accusation...and a good coach could explain his increase in hitting prowess.

But if you don't like Bonds for other reasons beside he's not on your team, then nothing anyone says will convince you of the man's greatness.

Personality is not the criteria to play MLB baseball...might be to run for political office. But based on the stiff that is running that can't throw a baseball you don't even need that to run for president.

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Originally posted by SBK:
Does anyone here believe that steroids don't make you bigger and stronger?

Does anyone here believe that being bigger and stronger doesn't help you hit?

Does anyone still believe Bonds didn't do roids?

Another question although not as obvious as the other three, "Does anyone believe OJ didn't do it"?

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AND Bond's home run record will always be tainted. There will need to be PRE-roids records as well as POST-roids records:
Maris/Ruth/Aaron vs Bonds/Bonds/Bonds

If ANYBODY believes that bonds has NOT taken roids, you are nuts! BUT, he will still go down as one of the greatest of all time. Have the roids allowed him to hit the ball farther? Maybe. But he still has to see the ball and hit it and no drug can make you do that any better.

PiC

Question:

How does a 40 year old cath up to a high 95mph fastball?

Answer:

Steriods


P.S. Played NYC H.S. Baseball 3 City Championships, and Scholarship to D1. If I took steriods it would have been Major D1

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Does anyone here believe that being bigger and stronger doesn't help you hit?

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Yes.

It may help with distance, but it doesn't help you make contact.
Examples:
Ichiro Suzuki 5'9" 160lbs. .328 BA (career through 2003)
Tony Gwynn 5'11" 199 .338
Mickey Mantle 5'11" 198 .298
Willie Mays 5'11" 180 .303

Soriano (.280 this year with 28 HR) weighs about 180 lbs. and Roberto Clemente (.317) tipped the scales at all of 175.

Bloomer, the answer:Practice, practice, practice, focus, concentration, experience, his teacher/father Bobby, and teacher/godfather Willy Mays!

I don't know what Bonds may or may not have taken, I have my suspicions like anyone else, but an interesting point that has been overlooked is what old time greats might have done with the pharmaceuticals available today.

From the limited medical literature I have read about steroid use, the gains are short term with major long term complications.

Would Mays have been even greaters after 40?
Would Aaron have hit 900 dingers?
Could Joe D or Mantle come back from those leg problems?

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Originally posted by 08catcher:
If ANYBODY believes that bonds has NOT taken roids, you are nuts! BUT, he will still go down as one of the greatest of all time. Have the roids allowed him to hit the ball farther? Maybe. But he still has to see the ball and hit it and no drug can make you do that any better.

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True, but he is not entitled to the records. MLB should of had the rules in place to protect the integrity of the game. They made a bold statement with Rose and gambling but took no hard steps with drugs. Does a crimnal on drugs pull the trigger any quicker and more accurately when on roids...probably, does he need good hand and eye coordiantion to hit the target...probably. Does he need to pay the penalty for the crime...not if you're an MLB baseball player...

Chicks
Baseball proved that Rose bet on games. Thus, he's banned.

What rule has Bonds broken? I'll answer for you, none.

Which investigation by baseball proves he used? None.

If they want to investigate him they should.

Otherwise, it sounds like just so much player hating.

People who categorically say that roids can't help you with making contact are wrong.

Roids help you become stronger. Being stronger in baseball is normally equated to having a faster bat.

Having a faster bat can help you catch up to heat better. You can also wait longer before you start your swing. Both of these we can all agree can attribute to better contact.

My Quote of the day - The better version of Bonds today reminds me of the Bonds of yesterday only on steroids.

Let's look at both sides of this.

Bonds has continued to hit home runs at not much older than Aaron so far. Aaron was 39 when he had his best year in terms of home runs per at bat. He dropped off pretty rapidly after that. It makes sense that with better training Bonds could continue to produce at a greater age.

On the other side is Bond's significant increase in home run production per at bat beginning in 2000 and continuing through this season. The increase in production seems to have occurred in the same time frame as his alleged involvement with BALCO.

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The better version of Bonds today reminds me of the Bonds of yesterday only on steroids

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If He's on steriods, or was because he is so good, then we can assume that all of the merely good players are not using right? Say Bernie Williams, Edgar Martinez, Palmeiro.

What about Manny? His numbers are sick too. He's on steriod's?

The fact is without testing data or investigation results nobody knows. Its a bunch of witch hunt c r a p.

Dad,

You don't really believe Bonds is clean do you????

Any truth that Palmeiro's performance has been enhanced with Viagra?

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Originally posted by SBK:
Any truth that Palmeiro's performance has been enhanced with Viagra?

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Not without testing and validation will we know for sure.

As someone who is old enough to have seen Mays, Aaron and Bonds play (I've even seen his dad, Bobby, play), I can tell you that I am biased and I've watched Bonds since his days at Arizona State.

As a hitter, the man is the best of all time.

In my opinion, it is an embarrassment to the game of baseball that they allow so many "intentional" walks to Bonds. Pitchers in the big leagues with such "pin-point" control should pitch to Bonds.

The fact that the don't, proves my point. He is the best and they are afraid to pitch to him. These are major league pitchers making millions of dollars!

Congrats to Barry on his 700th.

To those of you who think it is so easy, try doing anything that you used to do at 20 now that you are 40!

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Pitchers in the big leagues with such "pin-point" control should pitch to Bonds.

The fact that the don't, proves my point.

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Exactly. If steroids were the reason he was so good there would be many, many more like him.

He has 204 walks. The second place guy has about 125. Not even close.

Soooo, if the roids don't help, why the hill is it's use so widespread in MLB? For health reasons?

I'm apparently as old as Beenthere, as I've seen them all play as well. Including Bonds' daddy, who was pretty darned good too.

Do I think Bonds has used something illegal? Absolutely.

Can I prove it?
No

Do I think he's one of the greatest hitters of all time?
Yes, even without his added bulk, his hitting eye borders on phenomenal, and to see so few good pitches and hit so many out, he is indeed a very vare rare player.

Having given Bonds his due, had Mays and Aaron had personal trainers in the off season, flexibility training, coaches telling them the best way to do ever thing but blink (oops, forgot vision training is now available too), video analysis, computer analysis of pitchers, etc., they may've hit even more home runs, but we'll never know.

As an individual, Bonds is an embarrassment. Can you picture Willie Mays putting a lounge chair in front of his locker? Can you picture Bonds stopping and playing stick ball with a bunch of kids on his way home after a ball game? Does anyone else notice he takes a lot of plays off? Mays may've been embarrassed at errors in the Mets' World Series game at the end of his career but it wasn't because of lack of effort. Bonds does look more motivated lately because he does want the one thing money can't buy, A World Series ring (although King George tries every year....).

Bonds is a great player but he will never have the class about him that Mays and Aaron carried so gracefully. With which of the three would you like to spend an hour chatting? No question, 90% of the baseball fans would not choose Bonds. Give me Willie or Henry any day. And I'm even a Giants fan......

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Soooo, if the roids don't help, why the hill is it's use so widespread in MLB? For health reasons?

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Thank you for proving my point that anyone with with a bus ticket to Tijuana can buy over the counter steroids, and they do (or did for years), by the bus load.

Yet still there is only one player who will exit the game with 800+ bombs. There will never be another.

I'm not saying he never did steroids. I don't know. As a reasonable person I can only surmize that had he done steroids, there is something else separating him from everyone else in the history of the game, besides steroids.

Certainly plenty of players work out year round.

His god given ability made him what he is and kept him healthy and driven for the last 20 years

Personally, I think if he did steroids someone would prove it. If he didn't do steroids he's better than anyone will ever know or be again.

My guess is that Bonds has never taken anabolic steroids. My hope is that he has never taken anything illegal. I don't think people know what you can do with advanced methods of training and legal supplements. It is a proven fact that Bonds has been on an off-season workout regimine for the last 5-6 years that is unlike any in Baseball. Sheffield tried to stay with him and could not keep up. The guy will not win Mr. Congeniality- who cares. Let's just enjoy the greatness we are witnessing.

Dad,

I do not believe anyone here is saying that Barry Bonds is a great hitter because of steroids.

What a lot of us are saying is that Bonds is a “greater” hitter because of steroids.

Barry is a better version of his dad. Kind of like a Bobby Bonds on steroids.

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Originally posted by SBK:
Dad,

I do not believe anyone here is saying that Barry Bonds is a great hitter because of steroids.

What a lot of us are saying is that Bonds is a “greater” hitter because of steroids.

Barry is a better version of his dad. Kind of like a Bobby Bonds on steroids.

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That is exactly why his records will always be tainted. However, it will be excused and overlooked because of MLB and the need for greed!

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Bonds is a “greater” hitter because of steroids.

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If he gave a rip about that statement he'd ask you to prove it.

We all know the size of the ego of Mr Bonds

Harold Reynolds made a statement one evening pertaining to his ego and that in his mind, Reynolds, if anyone offered Bonds any substance and proclaimed that it would make him better Bonds would have told the guy to go fly a kite--- his own ego tells Bonds that he is the greatest and he needs no help from anyone or anything

Can we also go back to Babe Ruth and ask why his numbers were so superior in his day and that was among others who are in the Hall of Fame ??

In terms of bodies--look at college pictures of Clemens and look at him now !!!! The male body matures as you age and takes various shapes and forms thru the years

We can sit here and debate endlessly regarding 'roids and the players but until such time as the accused are found guilty it is only an assumption.

Additionaly is it not true that the 'roid in question until this year was never on the banned list.

Give the man his just due--he may well be the greatest hitter of all time and also has a number of Gold Gloves as well

TR,
Hard to believe you would accuse Clemens of steroid use!

Just kidding!

Barry Bonds may be a lot of things, but he is far from being a JOKE. He was a great player who was going to be a hall-of-famer until he reached 34 years of age. Since then he has become "arguably"? the greatest hitter ever. And not just home run hitter!

So the bottom line is... He is one of, if not THEE, greatest hitter ever. How he did it, may or may never be determined for absolute. Only thing we know for sure is that he has done things that no one else has ever done. If someone doesn't enjoy seeing it, so be it!

Willie Mays was my favorite player and I think he was the greatest all-around player who ever lived. But Bonds is a better hitter... the truth hurts.

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Originally posted by CADad:
Let's look at both sides of this.

Bonds has continued to hit home runs at not much older than Aaron so far. Aaron was 39 when he had his best year in terms of home runs per at bat. He dropped off pretty rapidly after that. It makes sense that with better training Bonds could continue to produce at a greater age.

On the other side is Bond's significant increase in home run production per at bat beginning in 2000 and continuing through this season. The increase in production seems to have occurred in the same time frame as his alleged involvement with BALCO.

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CADAD, assuming your information is correct, the increase in HR's also correlates well with the Giants move from the miserable and pitcher friendly Candlestick to the friendly confines of PacBell Park and McCovey Cove.

infielddad,
Good point. Perhaps we should be asking how many home runs Mays would have had if he hadn't played so many games at Candlestick. Brrrr...

Bonds came close to 1 hr every 10 at bats in '94 and '99 both years where he had less than 400 at bats. From 2000 through 2003 he did much better than that. I'm not sure when he became affiliated with BALCO but I think it was somewhere around '99 or 2000.

...or how many Bonds would hit if he didn't walk 200 times per year. One of the amazing things about Bonds is the change he made in the last 4-5 years to be able to hit the fastball which was up and in. That was the one place pitchers got him out. He is the one player whose hands and bat are so fast now that he can get around on that pitch without hooking it foul. bbscout talked about this on another thread. Agree with you though that Mays would have more than 660 if he didn't play at the 'Stick.

Dad04,
Don't forget Caminiti and Canseco. Don't forget that McGwire was taking perfectly legal supplements, etc. that I believe have since been banned.