Buster Posey Runned Over

I agree wholeheartedly that allowing a runner to plow into the catcher (who often times is pretty much defenseless if concentrating on the throw)is the dumbest thing permitted in baseball.

I don't see any realistic way around it. If the catcher is doing his job, he will block the plate if there is a play to get the runner out. Since the runner has every right to cross/touch the plate, he must go through the catcher if he chooses to block it.

What would be a realistic alternative?

We aren't going to make catching a sissified position now are we? Just because Posey is the "franchise" player, we're not going to go the way of the NFL quarterback, please. The dumbest thing permitted in baseball up until yesterday was allowing Posey to remain a catcher when he was so valuable an asset at the plate. Posey was never built to take the abuse of a major league season behind the plate. Don't block the plate if you don't want your bell rung. It's a choice. He made the wrong one. He's not defenseless....he can stay out of the way. Or he can take his medicine.

Example #473 on why the catcher SHOULD NOT be on his knees when receiving a throw.

"Posey's agent, Jeff Berry, said he was planning on calling Joe Torre, the new leader of on-field operations, in the hopes of changing the rules that allow runners to barrel into catchers.

"You leave players way too vulnerable," Berry said. "I can tell you Major League Baseball is less than it was before [Posey's injury]. It's stupid. I don't know if this ends up leading to a rule change, but it should. The guy [at the plate] is too exposed.

"If you go helmet to helmet in the NFL, it's a $100,000 fine, but in baseball, you have a situation in which runners are [slamming into] fielders. It's brutal. It's borderline shocking. It just stinks for baseball. I'm going to call Major League Baseball and put this on the radar. Because it's just wrong."

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
Posey was never built to take the abuse of a major league season behind the plate.

What do you propose that ML catchers be "built" like so that they can take a hit like the one delivered by Cousins last night? I disagree that he wasn't built to take the abuse. His last 5 years have been focused on building his body to be a MLB catcher, he was in fantastic shape for the position demands.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
We aren't going to make catching a sissified position now are we? Just because Posey is the "franchise" player, we're not going to go the way of the NFL quarterback, please. The dumbest thing permitted in baseball up until yesterday was allowing Posey to remain a catcher when he was so valuable an asset at the plate. Posey was never built to take the abuse of a major league season behind the plate. Don't block the plate if you don't want your bell rung. It's a choice. He made the wrong one. He's not defenseless....he can stay out of the way. Or he can take his medicine.

Look at this photo
how much further should he have been out of the way in your opinion?

plate open

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
Don't block the plate if you don't want your bell rung. It's a choice. He made the wrong one. He's not defenseless....he can stay out of the way. Or he can take his medicine.

Posey was not blocking the plate. He was in front of the plate to the fair side or the foul line. The runner had the line and the foul side all to himself. Posey was not blocking access to the plate.

ESPN Sports Science Plate Collisions

I am prepared to defend my comments. I might lose in the end but the debate should be spirited.

Buster Olney Blog, ESPN
On the incident:

quote:

But that is the least of the Giants' worries, in the aftermath of the devastating leg injury that Posey suffered while blocking home plate in the 12th inning Thursday night.

quote:

What follows is not meant to be a criticism of Posey or Scott Cousins: In the current world of assessing value, the act of blocking home plate is simply not worth the potential cost. Not even close.

Olney apparently has seen the incident and describes Posey's actions as "blocking" home plate. What else would you expect Posey to do? Go for a hotdog? Of course he set up in front of the plate waiting for the arrival of the ball and then expecting Cousins to be sliding toward the back of the plate moves to block the plate and deny the run. Unfortunately, Cousins had other plans.

ANTONIO GONZALEZ, AP SPORTS WRITER

On the incident:

quote:

The deciding play came when Emilio Bonifacio hit a shallow fly ball to right-center off Guillermo Mota (2-1) for the second out. Cousins tagged from third base on the sacrifice fly, beating the throw from Schierholtz and lowering his shoulder to slam into Posey for a clean - albeit cringing - hit on the reigning NL Rookie of the Year.

A clean hit.......Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just quoting people who should know.

Don't get me wrong, I do feel sympathy, make that empathy for Posey. That could have very well been a hit that costs him untold millions in future salary once he becomes a free agent.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
We aren't going to make catching a sissified position now are we? Just because Posey is the "franchise" player, we're not going to go the way of the NFL quarterback, please. The dumbest thing permitted in baseball up until yesterday was allowing Posey to remain a catcher when he was so valuable an asset at the plate. Posey was never built to take the abuse of a major league season behind the plate. Don't block the plate if you don't want your bell rung. It's a choice. He made the wrong one. He's not defenseless....he can stay out of the way. Or he can take his medicine.

This is a great post Dino! That is the exact reason Washington switched Bryce Harper from catcher.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
I am prepared to defend my comments. I might lose in the end but the debate should be spirited.

Buster Olney Blog, ESPN
On the incident:

quote:

But that is the least of the Giants' worries, in the aftermath of the devastating leg injury that Posey suffered while blocking home plate in the 12th inning Thursday night.

quote:

What follows is not meant to be a criticism of Posey or Scott Cousins: In the current world of assessing value, the act of blocking home plate is simply not worth the potential cost. Not even close.

Olney apparently has seen the incident and describes Posey's actions as "blocking" home plate. What else would you expect Posey to do? Go for a hotdog? Of course he set up in front of the plate waiting for the arrival of the ball and then expecting Cousins to be sliding toward the back of the plate moves to block the plate and deny the run. Unfortunately, Cousins had other plans.

Why look to the words of others when both live action video as well as stills are available to review with your own eyes? Those who speak on it are not always very reliable frankly; Cousins himself reported he decided to attempt to jar the ball lose only after seeing Posey secure the ball; of course this is bs as posey never secured the ball, if he slides into the clearly open plate he would have been safe and posey's career not at risk. None so blind etc.....

Don't normally get into the baseball "shoulds and should nots", but here goes. Points I contend...he was not blocking the plate (no matter what some pundits may say in illustrating their argument..seemed clear to me by photos and videos). There was plenty of access to the plate...he just probably would have been out (had the ball been caught).

I also contend IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER in this particular instance, because what was done is what is/has been ALLOWED. Runners have been allowed to go slightly out of the running path to try and "free the ball". Might not be the rule, but it has been allowed. This is why I would not be faulting the runner. He did a normal baseball play, because it is allowed. I think it is unneccessary, but it is allowed. If he was blocking the plate, the same thing would have happened.

Let's say he HAS THE BALL and is waiting...runner is ALLOWED to do whatever he wants in "accessing" the plate. This does not happen anywhere else on the field. An ejection would occur if it happened at second base. If ss was waiting at 2b with a stolen base attempt tag..slightly to the side of the bag (or even over the bag), an ejection would occur if the runner blasted into him to "access" the bag. Why is it different here? (Because it is ALLOWED.) Please do not use the "catcher has protection" argument..there is no protection for these types of collisions (head, neck, arms, wrists, ankles).

I say all this to say that I do believe THERE IS PLENTY OF ROOM FOR DISCUSSION about what is allowed at the plate...especially for an all-out, head-lowering trucking to occur.
Thank you, and you are welcome.

First it was ran over not runned over.

This is terrible for anyone.

I have watched Posey many times he's a smart guy, he was not directly blocking the plate. It looks like a dirty hit to me. Posey never even caught the ball.

What is allowed isn't always what most do.



JMO.

It looked like a clean hard-nosed baseball play. I'm not sure why there's even a shred of controversy here. These things are part of the game. Both players were doing their job and somebody got injured. Injuries happen. Catching a tough job. What else is there?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
First it was ran over not runned over.

JMO.

Nah..Posey was definitely RUNNED OVER!

quote:

Originally posted by DaddyBo:
Don't normally get into the baseball "shoulds and should nots", but here goes. Points I contend...he was not blocking the plate (no matter what some pundits may say in illustrating their argument..seemed clear to me by photos and videos). There was plenty of access to the plate...he just probably would have been out (had the ball been caught).

I also contend IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER in this particular instance, because what was done is what is/has been ALLOWED. Runners have been allowed to go slightly out of the running path to try and "free the ball". Might not be the rule, but it has been allowed. This is why I would not be faulting the runner. He did a normal baseball play, because it is allowed. I think it is unneccessary, but it is allowed. If he was blocking the plate, the same thing would have happened.

Let's say he HAS THE BALL and is waiting...runner is ALLOWED to do whatever he wants in "accessing" the plate. This does not happen anywhere else on the field. An ejection would occur if it happened at second base. If ss was waiting at 2b with a stolen base attempt tag..slightly to the side of the bag (or even over the bag), an ejection would occur if the runner blasted into him to "access" the bag. Why is it different here? (Because it is ALLOWED.) Please do not use the "catcher has protection" argument..there is no protection for these types of collisions (head, neck, arms, wrists, ankles).

I say all this to say that I do believe THERE IS PLENTY OF ROOM FOR DISCUSSION about what is allowed at the plate...especially for an all-out, head-lowering trucking to occur.
Thank you, and you are welcome.

Nice analysis.

Running into the catcher is being taught at all levels of baseball where it is allowed. I've seen my son do it and I don't like it one bit but I know he is doing as instructed.

I am obviously a Cleveland Indians fan and I believe a great career was cut short by Pete Rose. I also don't believe Rose did anything technically "wrong" although what was controversial about that play was that it occurred in an "exhibition" game.

This foolishness needs to stop and I appreciate PaDino's arguments on the subject.

I hate to pile on here but he was definitely runned down and hitted by a loaded freight train.

And that's why his knee is all blowed up today.

ClevelandDad, I hope this isn't Ray Fosse all over again. I saw that all-star game. First thing I thought of today.

And of course we all tried to be Pete Rose the next day in wiffle ball- running everyone over.

"It's legal! It's legal!"

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
It looked like a clean hard-nosed baseball play. I'm not sure why there's even a shred of controversy here. These things are part of the game. Both players were doing their job and somebody got injured. Injuries happen. Catching a tough job. What else is there?

What else?...well, I think these instances are legitimate times to open the discussion as to why it IS a part of the game. (i.e., "job descriptions" ) Catching is a tough job, even without unnecessary, intentional-force injuries (i.e., why are these types of plays allowed?). Maybe there should be no rain delays/cancellations. Shortstop is a tough job. Let's have a discussion to allow blasting the shortstop on plays at second. "Plays of the Week" would immediately get more interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by DaddyBo:

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:
It looked like a clean hard-nosed baseball play. I'm not sure why there's even a shred of controversy here. These things are part of the game. Both players were doing their job and somebody got injured. Injuries happen. Catching a tough job. What else is there?

What else?...well, I think these instances are legitimate times to open the discussion as to why it IS a part of the game. (i.e., "job descriptions" ) Catching is a tough job, even without unnecessary, intentional-force injuries (i.e., why are these types of plays allowed?). Maybe there should be no rain delays/cancellations. Shortstop is a tough job. Let's have a discussion to allow blasting the shortstop on plays at second. "Plays of the Week" would immediately get more interesting.

I can see where your son inherited fine intelligence and common sense to enable him at a place like West Point Daddybo. On a personsl note, I have gotten pm's asking if everything is ok with CPLZ. Is everything ok with Chip Daddybo?

quote:

he was not blocking the plate (no matter what some pundits may say in illustrating their argument..seemed clear to me by photos and videos). There was plenty of access to the plate...he just probably would have been out (had the ball been caught).

I understand and agree with the analysis of the moment but the incident is a "play" which develops over time, time enough for humans to respond to sensory perceptions as the play is developing. When the ball was arriving at home plate, Cousins perceived that he could not score by sliding. He realized that Posey was going to get him out by catching the accurate throw, and throwing himself toward the plate leading with his glove. An out at the plate was imminent in the mind of Cousins. His acceptable, organizationally taught option was exercised.....become a train wreck and knock the ball loose. To cry foul now.......begs the question, why do we applaud the other plays at the plate, and the catchers who have willingly become part of the train wreck and recorded the out?

What next, no more taking out the second baseman or shortstop on the double play? A kinder gentler baseball.......

I'm sorry to hear that Buster Posey was injured. I don't want to see anybody get seriously injured ... but stuff happens.

A part of sport is a raw, human, it's me against you, show me what you got, spirit. You can't cut this out of sport. If anything, for my money, we have gone too far that way already. In MY OPINION we have been on a march to sissify our sports and our society for a good 40+ years as we have tried to eliminate all risk from life ... which can never be accomplished.

When you have grown men being paid real money to prove who is the best on a particular field of battle, someone is going to get hurt. It happens. Yes, I feel badly for Buster Posey, but when you sign up to play, you sign up for the risks that go with it. That's part of the bargain.

I'm not saying that a player should go out and look for a way to injure an opponent, but you cannot take all of the risk out of the game without eventually suffocating the spirit of competition.

Then again, I used to do this for fun, so I may be somewhat biased ... or suffer from residual head trauma:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvMFHXcd0yQ


My thoughts and prayers are that Buster Posey will be able to come back from this incident physically strong, and maybe even mentally stronger than he was when it happened.

Let's change the rules. The catcher may no longer be allowed to stand on the plate (during force out situations) and the runner is not allowed to bowl the catcher. If the catcher leans his knee into the runner to impede his slide into the plate, then the catcher "deserves" what he gets. Somebody point out the error in my logic or illogic if you will ...

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
I hate to pile on here but he was definitely runned down and hitted by a loaded freight train.

Is that correct as in the run down but this time he was runned down? I am not sure there is such a word, Buster Posey got run over.

Not all organizations use that philosophy, because not only can the catcher get hurt but the runner as well. Once you get to that level, it's up to the player to decide what to do, and my understanding is that most prefer not to take out the catcher, or themselves. If it were widely accepted on the ML level guys would be doing it all the time, but they don't, which lets you know how they really feel about it.

Conklin is a marked man, most likely not just with the Giants.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
I can see where your son inherited fine intelligence and common sense to enable him at a place like West Point Daddybo. On a personsl note, I have gotten pm's asking if everything is ok with CPLZ. Is everything ok with Chip Daddybo?

Thanks, CD.
I believe Chip to be fine...actually, he's probably exceptionally fine..his son received his 2nd LT bars just this past weekend, after graduating from The United States Military Academy. I think his younger son is excelling in track & field, so he may be re-focusing his attention.

Only one person has hit upon what was the main reason for the injury - that was Redbird with his post. Posey was pretty much wrong in what he did as to what is taught. The only two things he did right was he had his cushion up the line and he gave a small lane to the plate. Then he messed up by dropping to his knees to try and catch the ball. That is the absolute worst thing he could have done.

He stays on his feet and he's probably just sore today. Two rules of thumb for catchers - 1) keep your knees bent and 2) NEVER go to your knees when you're getting run over. It's one thing to go to a knee to block a slide but you will get hurt if you take a full force of the hit.

Catchers are taught to stay on their feet and when they are going to get nailed to fall back and give with the hit. Basically the catcher is going to start falling backwards just before contact. This allows the force of the hit to go over the catcher while still making the tag. You can't do this when you're on your knees.

First I really don't think we need to use this play to create any change in the rules. Mainly due to Posey doing it wrong.

If there is going to be a change in the rules I say outlaw what the runner did. He gave up the lane to initiate contact away from the plate. He left his feet and launched his body into the catcher. I'm not going to say defenseless catcher because it was his fault. I think what the runner did was bush league and the Giants will get their payback throughout the season. If you're going to outlaw something then outlaw this cheap shot but don't take away the running over when the catcher has the ball in the line and is set up.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:


Olney apparently has seen the incident and describes Posey's actions as "blocking" home plate. What else would you expect Posey to do? Go for a hotdog? Of course he set up in front of the plate waiting for the arrival of the ball and then expecting Cousins to be sliding toward the back of the plate moves to block the plate and deny the run. Unfortunately, Cousins had other plans.

Olney either did not see the play or doesn't realize that that white thing on the ground is the plate.

Posey not blocking plate

quote:

Originally posted by NoReplay:
Look at this photo
how much further should he have been out of the way in your opinion?

plate open

quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy03:

Posey was not blocking the plate. He was in front of the plate to the fair side or the foul line. The runner had the line and the foul side all to himself. Posey was not blocking access to the plate.

I must admit that looking at the linked photo it appears that the runner went after him rather than the catcher having the plate blocked. If that is the case, maybe they should look into not allowing a runner to score on such a play. It could be just like a runner being called out because the runner going to 2nd goes outside the base path trying to breakup the double play. Granted it is a judgment call, but at times it is obvious.

So I wonder if umpires could call a runner out for crashing into the catcher if his obvious intent is not to touch home but rather hit the catcher(not blocking the plate)to dislodge the ball.

Buster Posey Runned Over

I'm sorry. But everytime I read this I laugh my backside off! It reminds me of Ernest T Bass on The Andy Griffith show.

Don't be sorry. I did it on purpose. I was a big fan of Big Jim McBob and Billy Sol Hurok.



I just saw the one where Ernest tried to join the Army to get a uniform.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
We aren't going to make catching a sissified position now are we? Just because Posey is the "franchise" player, we're not going to go the way of the NFL quarterback, please. The dumbest thing permitted in baseball up until yesterday was allowing Posey to remain a catcher when he was so valuable an asset at the plate. Posey was never built to take the abuse of a major league season behind the plate. Don't block the plate if you don't want your bell rung. It's a choice. He made the wrong one. He's not defenseless....he can stay out of the way. Or he can take his medicine.

Wasn't Posey a shortstop his soph year of college? I beleive the next season Delmonico transferred from Tennessee and Georgia Tech needed a catcher. I agree about moving that kind of bat to another position.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
We aren't going to make catching a sissified position now are we? Just because Posey is the "franchise" player, we're not going to go the way of the NFL quarterback, please.

Really? Try replacing the name, Buster Posey, with your own son's name, then get back to me about how sissified it would be to actually change the rule to try to protect a defenseless player not looking at whos about to plow his butt over.

As the rule stands now, a players career is in jeopardy everytime there is a play at the plate. I was just txting with my son, who is a catcher, about the situation. I made the comment about one run not being worth a career ending injury. His reply was yeah but that's a good way to lose the respect of your team and manager.

The catchers are stuck in a no win situation. Protect your self and lose respect. Block the plate and take a chance on your career being over.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:


A clean hit.......Don't shoot the messenger, I'm just quoting people who should know.

No, you're quoting sports writers. There is a huge difference.

But, if it's writers you turn to for advice, try this one:

Jon Paul Morosi... (Fox MLB writer)

"No player on the field is exposed to greater peril than the catcher. Foul tips, breaking balls in the dirt, and, yes, plays at the plate present varying degrees of danger. Catchers will tell you that it’s all part of their job.

Yet, as with football and head hits, it’s wise for Major League Baseball to take common-sense steps to protect those who wear the tools of ignorance.

MLB could accomplish this with a simple rule change: A runner should be called out if he initiates a collision with a catcher who is not blocking the plate.

If that rule were in effect Wednesday, Florida’s Scott Cousins would have been called out after initiating contact with Posey — rather than sliding — on a play at the plate in the Marlins’ 7-6, 12-inning win.

Posey was not in possession of the ball as Cousins arrived with what proved to be the winning run. Nor was Posey completely blocking the plate. Cousins had an alley to slide in safely, around the tag. He didn’t take it.

Instead, he lowered his right shoulder into Posey’s chest, toppling the reigning Rookie of the Year in a way that made his left ankle break beneath him."

comments deleted.

I caught for many years, was trucked many times in legit plays and loved it, but this was a cheap shot IMO

You enter the game, you assume the risks. We could enact numerous rules and regulations that would make the game safer for our millionaire athletes. No blocking the plate, no colliding with catchers, batters with face masks, pitchers with helmets, no take out slides at second, no diving in the outfield, no attempts at foul balls near the stands, no climbing the walls to snag homers, no playing when it rains period, no leaving your feet at all for anything, no head first slides at first base...ah what the heck...no head first slides period, no running on and off the field - please walk, no batting practice - people like A Rod get hurt, no long toss, no tossing balls into the stands, no tossing home runs back, especially in Chicago, ......

The longer the game survives the more watered down it gets, the more the players are paid, the safer we want it to be.

Every new rule is a new infringement on a right. The right to assume the risk. The freedom to block the plate, to earn the respect of your teammates, to deny the winning run.........well maybe that million dollar paycheck is our god after all.

sportsfan5,

quote:

Really? Try replacing the name, Buster Posey, with your own son's name, then get back to me.........

I've sat in the waiting room outside the ER praying the neurosurgeon would tell me my son was alive after being flown by helicopter for a life threatening head injury.

Your son is infinitely more likely to be injured or killed driving home from the game than playing in it. And we have all kinds of rules in place to protect him on the road.

Posey was doing what Posey was paid to do, stop runners from scoring. Do you think he ever saw the Ray Fosse Pete Rose play? Did he know what the risk was? Now if this had happened to Jason Kendall would we be having this discussion?

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
The longer the game survives the more watered down it gets, the more the players are paid, the safer we want it to be.

Every new rule is a new infringement on a right. The right to assume the risk.

By golly, you may be on to something.

Let's get rid of batting helmets and go back to when runners could be called out when plunked by a fielder.

Why take away the right of player to a severe concussion.

It's definitely a potentially one-sided affair when the catcher is blind sided by a player at the plate running full tilt after getting up a good 30 yards head of steam.

In this instance, the runner clearly had a straight shot at the plate and CHOSE to veer in front of the plate, lower his shoulders to take him out.

If a throw to any base beats you there, you are out. The defensive player can't obstruct your path to the base. Why then, should the rules allow the catcher to block the runner from getting to home plate and allow the runner to dislodge the ball from the catchers glove? Only at the Pro level is that contact allowed. I love this game but don't get this part of the game.

Jimmy03,

quote:

By golly, you may be on to something.

Let's get rid of batting helmets and go back to when runners could be called out when plunked by a fielder.

Why take away the right of player to a severe concussion.

It won't shock you to learn that I think the MLB helmet rule is unnecessary. Nobody in their right mind would bat without a helmet, but if you want to assume the risk, then you ought to have the right.

Looks like a cheap shot to me. The runner lowered his shoulder. I don't get it either.

If taking out Posey is a clean play, so is drilling Cousins in the ribs (or anywhere below the neck for that matter) every time he steps into the batters box against the Giants. Ironically, Cousins didn't play at all today. I wonder why that is?.

If Cousins or his manager have the stones to put him in the line up, Cousins is going to get drilled and Giants pitcher (and the manager) is going to be kicked out of the game. The reality is all 25 guys on the Giants know Cousins is going to get his and so do all the Marlin players.

Personally, if I were manager, I'd light him up every at bat.

You know what.....maybe Posey ought to sue Cousins, MLB and the owners for hazardous work conditions and potential loss of income.

Add John Buck, Marlin's catcher and and Whiteside, Posey's replacement to the list of those not calling for reform.

quote:

so is drilling Cousins in the ribs

Yes ! Now you get my point. Assume the risk.

Yes, they assume the risk when they enter the game and yes, they are paid millions of dollars to do so. They are ultimately paid that kind of money because, it entertains you and I. Would we really be less entertained if MLB implimented a simple rule that might reduce some of the risk and possibly sustain a star like Buster Posey's career a little longer? For our entertainment.

Posey didn't have control of the ball and it appears to me that there was a path the runner could have taken directly to the plate and avoided some if not all contact with Posey. In this situation, IMO, a rule needs to implimented. That's all I am saying. Don't change the game entirely but take away the blindsided hits and discourage players from simply trying to take out the catcher. He didn't go after the ball, he just lowered his shoulder and went after Posey.


Sorry, I might be too sissyfied for you. I'll go put my slippers on and grab a cup of milk before bed time. Nighty Night.

Fair enough......put some hershey's chocolate in it and warm it up...you'll sleep better.

Cousins is a bench player who has 1 HR, 4RBI, 38 AB and is hitting 158.

He wouldn't have been in the lineup today anyway.

He's going to be labeled a first year player punk. Some say he committed early on to intentionally hit Posey and not the plate. He says he's sorry but knew he hit him hard? I don't get that. But perhaps he's realizing he messed up and gonna have some long sleepless nights.

This doesn't happen often, so it's questionable as to the intent and I say there was (and I am fish fan). Pitchers job is also to back up home, does that mean he is not at risk as well? Definitely lots of blame is on MLB and the Players Association.

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/5...ey-injury-giants-leg

I wonder how soon he'll be optioned down to AAA.

Dino,

If drilling Cousins is a clean pay, why is it that the pitcher and manager will be kicked out after Cousins eats a fast ball. If it is a clean play, I would light him up every single at bat. And as stated on another forum, the relief pitcher, who has replaced the starter, (who will be ejected by the umpire), will repeatedly "attempt" to pick Cousins off at first so that the first baseman, in an "attempt" to tag the runner out, applies hard tags to the ear hole as well as the face of Scott Cousins.

John Buck was the starting catcher today for the Marlins. When the two teams meet again for a three game series in August, are you saying that it is okay to have a baserunner run him him over on any play at the plate? What about a batter letting his swing "accidentally" hit Buck in the head or upper body with the follow through of a swing? Buck didn't do anything wrong but he may end up taking one or more as well. Are those clean plays?

Cousins is going to get plunked....probably over and over. His biggest offense is dipping his shoulders to initiate the bulldozer move. The players can regulate their own game. No need for a new rule or clarification. It's their game anyway.

Wow, that was a firefight. I'm going home and lick my wounds.

quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:


It won't shock you to learn that I think the MLB helmet rule is unnecessary.

You were wrong, it did shock me. But it also enlightened me about your thought process and how futile any further discussion with you would be.

Moving on.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PA Dino:
It's their game anyway. [QUOTE]

You are so wrong, that game belongs to the fans who come to watch them play and pay their salary and want their team to win.

Dino aka Mr. Tough Guy,

I am no Buster Posey, but if you are calling him a sissy, I must be one too. Who said anything about law suits? I am talking about pay back via a clean play.

Since Cousins won't play in the next series, how many Marlins are taking one for the team? Which stars, Hanley, Stanton, etc. get it? An eye for an eye won't get Posey's health back.

I will talk to you later...I need to draw my bubble bath.

quote:

Originally posted by Proud Dad 24:
If taking out Posey is a clean play,

That's the point...it wasn't clean. Clean is when the catcher has the ball and is blocking access to the plate. Posey didn't have the ball when the decision was made and never was blocking access to the plate. Cousins had a clear and safe path to the plate and instead veered to his left, lowered his shoulder and went after Posey.

Anyone who can defend this play as clean or "just baseball" probably didn't wear a helmet in high school football.

Jimmy,

Obviously, it wasn't a clean play and I am not defending it. Dino, aka Mr. Tough Guy is the one who says it's clean. I am advocating retribution, whether it is considered clean or otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Proud Dad 24:
Jimmy,

Obviously, it wasn't a clean play and I am not defending it. Dino, aka Mr. Tough Guy is the one who says it's clean. I am advocating retribution, whether it is considered clean or otherwise.

I know.

Jimmy,

I thought you knew. This sissy's warm bubble bath was cloudng my good judgement.

Is this clean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxYpFQIVcpg

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
Is this clean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxYpFQIVcpg

Tough call. A clean hit in the pros. Met acceptable standards last year in NCAA. A violation this year in NCAA.

Jimmy- In your opinion, any shot this hit had something to do with the NCAA rule alteration?

quote:

Originally posted by J H:
Jimmy- In your opinion, any shot this hit had something to do with the NCAA rule alteration?

I suspect it was, but that's based only on informal discussions.

Thanks for the insight. The catcher in the clip was my catcher last summer. Interesting hearing his take on it, as well as his girlfriend's (girl in the white dress on the field towards the end of the video).

JH if you don't mind sharing what was his take on this?

He was completely on the line and up really far (due to the throw) but it looked like the runner tried to pull up at the last minute. Plus the ball isn't there yet.

The only reason this play is getting all this publicity is because Buster Posey got hurt. Had the catcher been some nobody minor leaguer, it would've never made the news.

He said he remembers nothing about the hit and come to about three days later in the hospital. He was only out for about three weeks and then joined us for the remainder of the summer. He said that in watching the replays, the play was clean. He had come up the line to receive the ball but didn't have possession, and therefore was obstructing the runner's path. A lot of our teammates asked him if he thought it was malicious and he said no, it was just a baseball play. He seemed very detached from the entire situation in his descriptions, most likely because he doesn't remember a thing. He wasn't excited to talk about it, nor was he upset. I think he was happy to be back on the field and didn't mind the popularity on the bus for a week to be honest, and most of the conversation about it dwindled down pretty quickly as the summer progressed.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
Cousins is a bench player who has 1 HR, 4RBI, 38 AB and is hitting 158.

He wouldn't have been in the lineup today anyway.

He's going to be labeled a first year player punk. Some say he committed early on to intentionally hit Posey and not the plate. He says he's sorry but knew he hit him hard? I don't get that. But perhaps he's realizing he messed up and gonna have some long sleepless nights.

This doesn't happen often, so it's questionable as to the intent and I say there was (and I am fish fan). Pitchers job is also to back up home, does that mean he is not at risk as well? Definitely lots of blame is on MLB and the Players Association.

http://mlb.sbnation.com/2011/5...ey-injury-giants-leg

I wonder how soon he'll be optioned down to AAA.

Telling point this. In Canada this is the well known hockey goon phenom. This was an assault by a bush league player, soon to be sent back down, who may even have been called up just for this attack upon a rival contenders franchise player.
Really, why would the marlins even care if they did put this goon back in the lineup and he took one in the face? Probably just consider it better him than one of the "quality"

You know that's a thought, with his average coming off the bench maybe he needed to prove he should remain on the big league bench.
He hit a grand slam this april and hasn't produced much else yet.

Giants fans want to assign guilt/fault to Cousins in order to deflect anger at the sheer stupidity of having Posey, reigning NL Rookie of the Year and franchise player, continually exposed in harm's way by inserting him in the lineup as a catcher. This is "a part of the way the game has been played for decades."

Certainly management had to foresee this coming. All they had to do is ask Ray Fosse or Chad Kreuger or Pete Rose or Johnny Damon or a list of other catchers and position players whose careers were either shortened or ended by such home plate incidents. Home plate has to be defended. It is the ultimate goal of the game, reach home. You put a guy like Sal Fasano here, do we hear the outcry? Let's say the league does enact a rule to satisfy your protecting the catcher. When Posey does return, will you be comfortable having him catch again?

Again, if Posey were standing up here, he would not have been injured. Stay off your knees!

I watched Cousins play in college. The kid was a stud: Friday night pitcher, hit 3rd, and starting the rest of the games in CF. There’s no doubt in my mind that he’s a good kid. It’s unfortunate that he’s going to have to wear this incident, but I don’t feel sorry for him. My sympathy is reserved for Posey.


I like the Coach 2709 approach of making this a teachable moment. By going to a knee Posey clearly used bad technique and put himself more at risk. From what I’ve read, and what I saw, his intent was not to block the plate. Trying to keep his star player healthy, Bochy had instructed Posey to avoid blocking the plate in these situations. Obviously that advice didn’t help much in this case. Better technique may have.

So what about Cousins? Is his technique being taught? Should it be? Surely not by any HS coaches. But teaching the hook slide? Definitely! It’s obvious Cousins had a lane to the plate—one he claims he didn’t see. If he executes a hook slide he’s safe —even if Posey holds the ball— and there’s your clean play. Same score, same team wins, and this controversy never happens.

I just watched the clip. Regardless of who is whom, there is no question in my mind: Scott Cousins is a dirty ***** and someone ought to kick his ***. He clearly could have scored without going after Posey. It's just a shame this had to happen, especially because it did not have to happen.

quote:

This is "a part of the way the game has been played for decades."

But WHY?!?! It's only a "part of the game" at that level. What is the point?

quote:

Originally posted by spizzlepop:
It’s obvious Cousins had a lane to the plate—one he claims he didn’t see.

I believe him. He's trying to score the go-ahead run in the 12th inning. I'm not out to make Scott Cousins a villain. I never thought his action was 'dirty' because, to me, he played within the rules. He had a split second to make the decision between sliding or trying to 'knock the ball out'.

Yes, it can be argued that he 'went out of his way' to initiate contact with Buster Posey. I'll grant that. Then what? He'd be called out? Buster Posey would still be lying on the ground, writhing in pain.

I don't believe, for one instant, that Scott Cousins intended to injure Buster Posey. No way. But, he definitely intended to knock Buster Posey into next week. And he did. Because he's allowed to.

Bottom line in this particular case is that Posey did nothing wrong from a positioning standpoint. I just went back and looked at the play in slow motion several times. He was clearly inside the line and in front of the plate giving Cousins a clear path to the plate. Had Cousins executed a hook slide as Sizzlepop suggested, he's safe, regardless if Posey has the ball or not. Cousins intentionally chose to go after Posey, not the plate.

Is this being taught to the base runners at the MLB level? It’s doubtful, but just like the steroid era when the front office was looking the other way, it's doubtful that the owners nor managers are telling the base runners not to take out the catcher if there is going to be a close play. MLB certainly isn’t telling them not to do it.

Cousins is a young player trying to make the team and trying to make a name for himself as a hardnosed player. He took a shot at the catcher trying to dislodge a ball, that wasn’t there, and make a point of saying "I'm not afraid of laying it all on the line for the team". Unfortunately Posey paid the price. Cousins was ruled safe and MLB has NO rule in place to discourage this type of mentality. The penalty for doing something like this shouldn’t be put in the hands of the opposing pitcher the next time Cousins steps in the box. But, under the current rules, that’s exactly what will happen.

If a catcher has the ball and wants to puts himself in harm’s way by totally blocking the plate, Katie bar the door, it’s on and the catcher does so at his own risk. But if the catcher doesn't have clear control of the ball and/or has given the runner at least a partial path to the plate and the runner still feels the need to plow the catcher, IMO, MLB needs to review the play and lay down a VERY harsh penalty... Something that discourages runners from the blindside hit.

PA, yes I still want to see Posey catch if possible when/if he comes back. He's too good of a catcher to move at this point in his career. Unfortunately, when/if he comes back will he be limited in his ability to play that position and will he be forced to one of the corner positions?

Thanks JH for the info.

I just don't think we need to take one play where the catcher is not doing the right thing to totally change the rules of the game. I personally think it was a cheap shot but not something to change the rules.

Has Posey spoken about the incident? I think he will be like Schaeffer and say that his technique was wrong. He may say it was a cheap shot but like redbird said - he stays on his feet and we are NOT discussing this today. Posey would probably be sore and need a day off but his season wouldn't be over.

quote:

Has Posey spoken about the incident? I think he will be like Schaeffer and say that his technique was wrong. He may say it was a cheap shot but like redbird said - he stays on his feet and we are NOT discussing this today. Posey would probably be sore and need a day off but his season wouldn't be over.

Coach, he was not on the ground like you two have stated. If he was, he gets trucked and it's over. His foot was in the ground. I'm not saying he should have gone to his knees, but to say that he was off his feet is inaccurate. If his foot hadn't been planted into the ground, he doesn't break his leg and tear the ligaments in his ankle.

I am not completely against collisions at the plate, but this one was out of line. The baserunner deviated greatly from the basepath to cause the collision. If Posey had been blocking the plate, he'd be game to be run over. That is not the case here as the video and photo evidence clearly shows he was not near the 3rd base line.

As for the NC-State incident last year, it appears to me that neither of them were "wrong" but that a collision took place. To me, that can't be eliminated. The baserunner is coming full steam down the line. The catcher goes up the line to catch the throw that was off target. The two collide because they are not looking at each other and occupy the same space. I would consider that an unfortunate and likely unavoidable injury.

Buster Posey's injury is avoided if the baserunner was more intent on scoring than he was on taking out the catcher.

Coach, so the cheap shot should just go unpunished? except for the ball that will placed in his ear hole his next AB.

True, if he stayed on his feet, we might not be discussing a broken ankle and torn knee. We could be discussing cracked ribs and a separated shoulder, instead.

What if a runner gets picked off at second and barrels his way to third and never stops- just runs through the hunched over 3B who is waiting for him, ball in mitt, and knees the 3B in the head (unintentionally)? I think there'd be an outrage, and, likely, one of those baseball riots where both teams run onto the field.

Why are things different at home plate?

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
Why are things different at home plate?

I asked my son the same thing last night. His response was "we have gear on and the other defensive players don't and the play is over once the runner crosses home"

He also told me that, in his organization, they are taught to stay on their feet and roll back with the blow. If the throw is high, don't jump for it and let it go. I didn't ask him about an off target throw that take the catcher up the line. I will ask him tonight and post his response.

Not that he or I are the experts in this, but I just want to share his response as that of what is being taught in one of the Milb organizations.

Bulldog I think the world of you but I'm not sure what video you're watching. His left knee is on the ground and his right knee is pretty darn close. His left foot is why the leg broke. He's not on the bottom part of his foot. His foot is turned sideways with the inside ankle part flat on the ground. The leg had nowhere to go when he got ran over so it broke.

He stays "on his toes" even in full squat or just flat footed then he's able to roll back and kick his legs free. He's probably hurting but his season isn't over.

I'm not trying to be a jerk but I don't see on video at all what you're saying happened.

sportsfan5 - what I'm saying is we don't need to let this one cheap shot completely change the rules to take away something that is part of the game that 95% of the time is just hard nosed competitive baseball. That's what I'm against. The NC State example was just a train wreck. It just happened but if you change the rules (using this example in the MLB settings) you are going to have umpires call the runner out or ejected for a train wreck that is unavoidable.

When you have two highly skilled / trained athletes vying for the same space in a bang bang situation there is going to be contact. Most of the time it's not on purpose so let's not change everything over one play. Cheap shots happen in all sports - some get caught and some don't. There are a lot of things that go on in baseball that are cheap but the average fan doesn't know it. This one was just obvious.

Coach I'm not totally disagreeing with you. I don't want to change the game any more than you do but if a simple rule or punishment can be implimented to eliminate even a few of the "avoidable" injuries, then why not do it?

Yes there will be someone called out or tossed by an ump that didn't have a clear view. So what? Isn't that better than losing another Buster Posey for the rest of the season, or longer?

Fans go to games to see the Buster Posey’s of the game. They don’t go to see his AAA replacement. Rules change over time to protect the players - be reasonable and use common sense. There is no less excitement at the play at home in HS or College ball with the rules there.

When inter-league play first started I went to a Dodger game vs Seattle. Ichiro was up to bat and got pegged in the head. A diehard Dodger fan next to me stood up and started yelling at HIS pitcher. “HEY what are YOU doing! Don’t take out the guy WE came to see”

I rest my case.

quote:

Originally posted by coach2709:
Thanks JH for the info.

I just don't think we need to take one play where the catcher is not doing the right thing to totally change the rules of the game. I personally think it was a cheap shot but not something to change the rules.

Coach, he may not have been doing the "right thing" in regards of avoiding an injury after the hit, however he was doing the right thing to avoid such a blow. He was not blcking the plate. The hit was avoidable without an out. Cousins went out of his way to hit Posey.

sportsfan5 I guess what I'm saying is if there is going to be a rule change then let's give it a couple of weeks and let the emotion of this play die down. Then MLB, fans, teams and whoever can make a rational decision and judgement without over reacting. When rules / laws are created out of emotion we tend to try and take a sledgehammer to kill a fly.

I guess my example wasn't very good about the premature ejection (no puns intended) but I wouldn't have a problem with an ejection call here as a rule if that's all it is. Even use replay to make this call but I just don't want rule changes to be made out of emotion.

Also, I've never been a fan of if this such and such helps just one person then it's worth it. I hear it all the time in education and it's wrong because if all we're doing is helping one person then we're wasting our time and need to do something else. I know that's not what you're saying here but it's in the neighborhood of the same senitment. If it IS only a simple rule change then I can live with it but look at the NFL. They made a snap decision based on emotion when some high profile QBs got hurt. Look at where they are now. I just hope MLB doesn't do the same thing.

Jimmy I agree with everything you said. I believe it was a cheap shot made worse by Posey's technique. If he's set up the way he should be set up and Cousins goes out of his way to do what he did then I really doubt this thread is 5 pages long in record time.

Jimmy is spot on here. Yes Buster's technique was not very good. But the runner had every opportunity to avoid a violent hit and still score. That imo makes it a cheap shot. He went out of his way to deliver a violent blow on Buster. Cheap shot.

Veteran umpires who have been around the game and called it at a high level know the game of baseball. They also understand how its played. I listen to what they think. If my opinion falls on the same side with these guys I usually feel pretty good about how I see it.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
He went out of his way to deliver a violent blow on Buster. Cheap shot.

My thought exactly.

Say what you want about him, but the home plate ump, Joe West, has been in the majors for 33 years. He was standing right there and ruled Scott Cousins 'safe'.

He was safe and I dont think I have heard anyone say he was not safe. He was clearly safe. That is not the issue here. And he was within the rules of the game to plow Posey.

What we are talking about here is wether or not it was a cheap play or not. You can be within the rules of the game, be safe and still take a cheap shot on someone.

Could he have scored without the big crash? Looking at endless slow motion replays and still photographs- probably. Still, I stop short of calling it cheap. The rest is up to the baseball gods.

What gets me about this whole thing is, while guys occasionally run into one another, direct contact between opposing players in baseball is limited to simple 'tagging', minor dust-ups at second... and destroying the catcher.

What I find interesting is that the majority of posters seem to believe that it was a "cheap" shot while most baseball commentators don't feel the same.

I have watched the replay several times and it looks to me like Posey was making a move to block the plate sliding to his left before contact was made. That would be the catcher's job in a tie game in extra innings. The play is a part of the game and catchers have the ability to inflict damage on runners too (look at the replay of Ben Revere getting smashed by a catcher.

If you want to avoid this, the rule would have to be no blocking the plate by a catcher and no contact by a runner. Seems like that would be still be subject to problems with the catcher having to move to catch a throw up the third base line.

For Posey's agent to be sounding off seems very self serving. I hope Posey comes back from his injury just like Carlos Santana has. Was there the same outcry last year when Santana was injured on a collision at home plate?

I have watched it several times as well. What I see is this. The runner veers inside before Buster even has the baseball. And while Buster is in the process of setting up to catch the ball. He is clearly not blocking the plate when the runner veers to the inside to take him out. A slide to the backside would have allowed him to score without taking out the catcher. Now thats what I see. I see a runner who has made up his mind he is going to hammer the catcher.

Everyone has an opinion. Yes you can plow the catcher at the ML level of play. And I am one of those people that simply believes it should be used as a last resort. In this case I do not believe it was. And that is why I see it as a cheap shot. Others are free to believe what they want to believe. No problem we all have our own opinion.

No doubt he sized him up and brought the wood. In my mind, he did what he felt he needed to do to score the run.

No problem. He certainly did score the run. All I am saying is he could have scored the run by simply going backside and he didn't HAVE to hammer Buster to score the run. If you think he had to hammer him to score then fine.

Where I have a problem with hammering the catcher is when you can score without hammering him. If you have no other choice and its in the rules then fine. If you have another option but you choose to hammer him anyway that is where I call it a cheap shot. And when he sized up him he had another option in my opinion.

But like I said thats just my opinion.

I agree that it looks like the runner veers left to create contact. I believe he was doing it because in his mind Posey was going to catch the ball and block the plate preventing the score.

For arguments sake - what if Posey had caught the ball a fraction of a second earlier cleanly and then pushed the runner off the plate preventing the score if he tried to slide to the outside part of the plate. Happens all the time in MLB.

Hard to tell what goes through a player's mind in that fraction of a second when he must determine whether to slide or try to bowl the catcher over. I have seen some plays where the runner has gone "headhunting" on this type of play. I just didn't see it on this play. I just hope that Buster comes back next year and continues what should be a great career.

Buster is a great kid and an outstanding player. We know him very well and baseball fans like him too.

I have mixed emotions about this play. It did look like the collision could have, maybe should have, been avoided. However, we would need to be in that runners shoes (or head) to understand exactly what happened.

Scott Cousins is a player trying to build a successful career. He is trying to score a run. If he avoids the contact and is somehow tagged out, what will his manager and teammates think? Will the decision makers think he is soft? Or will they think he is willing to do anything it takes?

It’s also safer for the runner to avoid the collision, that catcher has some hard equipment on. We have all seen runners get hurt on similar plays. Actually I saw a young kid break his neck (end his career) colliding with shin guards.

IMO… These things are fairly instantaneous decisions. You either commit to the outside or you commit to the collision. Once that decision is made, it is nearly impossible to change your path. He decided to go with the collision. I wish he had gone the other way, but I can see why things like this can happen. He doesn’t have slo-motion replay to guide him.

I fully believe that Cousins did what he thought was the right thing to do at the time. Unfortunately it ended up in a serious injury for Buster. The only way to avoid this in the future is to change the rules. I would bet there would be many differing opinions regarding that rule change. For sure, agents should not be in charge of the rules. Many have been injured, why is it so much more important now than it was when all the others were injured?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Many have been injured, why is it so much more important now than it was when all the others were injured?

There is always a "last one" that leads to change. It doesn't matter if it's the worst or not...it's a matter of timing. Sometimes people are just ready for change.

Baseball has been largely about money for years. But what money represents changes. Sometimes it's ticket sales, sometimes it's salaries. This time it might be about the team protecting its investment or the players proetecting their financial future.

Time will tell.

quote:

Many have been injured, why is it so much more important now than it was when all the others were injured?

Well, I can think of one immediately:
Owners like $$$$$, lots of it. Buster Posey, as evidenced by this thread and sports talk shows/ESPN/MLB.com is a hugely popular player who plays the game right and has major charisma.
Not only is Posey one terrific player, he has captivated the Bay Area(not just core baseball fans). Children love him.
He isn't just good for the game. He is far more than that; in less than one short year, he has become a face of the game for many.
Necessarily, fans and the public don't/won't pay to watch Eli Whiteside and won't take a Saturday or any other time to turn on the TV because Eli is catching.
Secondly, I think the media/slow motion and "violence" of the collision needs to be considered in terms of the present knowledge and awareness. Check SI.com right now to see the still photo and the image it creates and leaves.
Brain damage in NFL players, concussions( Mike Matheney in the Bay Area), and perhaps current thinking raise the specter that might be more receptive to the concept that major injuries, if they can be mitigated, don't need to be "part of the game."
Let's be realistic. Posey needs some type of significant surgery. Any such procedure carries risks, including infection and complications. In the Bay Area, this situation is being compared to Joe Montana when he had back surgery and faced career ending risks...in a fan's eyes.
Posey is taking on such a persona, maybe even bigger than Montana because information can be captured so quickly, because kids love him, true fans love him, marginal fans love him, the media loves him, and even those who don't know much about baseball love him.

I agree with sportsfan5 - change the rules and I believe I said that before he posted. His son is a catcher and a first round draft choice. If any of us had our catcher bowled over and injured like Posey, none of us would be arguing "oh shucks, thems da breaks of the game" (improper grammar intentional).

As I mentioned, there will be many different opinions regarding changing the rules. I would be interested in hearing what Buster thinks about changing the rules.

Ray Fosse was an "All Star" catcher that got run over by Pete Rose in the 1970 All Star game.

Ray Fosse: no need for rule changes

I do think safety should always be a concern when it comes to the rules. So who knows, maybe there will be a rule change. Lately, Football has made several rule changes in the interest of safety.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
As I mentioned, there will be many different opinions regarding changing the rules. I would be interested in hearing what Buster thinks about changing the rules.

Ray Fosse was an "All Star" catcher that got run over by Pete Rose in the 1970 All Star game.

Ray Fosse: no need for rule changes

I do think safety should always be a concern when it comes to the rules. So who knows, maybe there will be a rule change. Lately, Football has made several rule changes in the interest of safety.

PG - thanks for posting that. Ironically, I used the Ray Fosse example earlier in this thread for arguing why the rules ought to be changed. I am open to reason but have always been against bowling over the catcher. Obviously, any rule change should not allow them to block access to the plate either imho.