Can we ban the bunt?

Emanski's Heroes posted:

High school playoff game (Stafford at Atlee). Lead off hitter for Stafford walks and we get the immediate bunt. Number three hitter doubles. 1-0. What might have happened if an out wasn't given away?

Bottom 1st: lead off hitter reaches 2nd on error. Coach has number 2 hitter attempt to bunt the runner to third twice before hitting a sharp single to left to score the run. Number 3 hitter promptly gives away an at bat with a weak grounder back to pitcher on a hit and run. 

Shockingly both coaches played for one run and its 1-1. Can we just stop talking the bat out of their hands? Let them hit and see what happens?

PS: top 2 now, lead off hitter walks, gets balked to second, and the hitter bunts through a pitch (again trying to bunt a runner to third) then strikes out. Painful. 

We had some alumni come back for the last games over the weekend.  They all made comments regarding the coach's love of the bunt.  One in particular said, "I bunted more than I swung, and I was top of the order."  

I love the bunt and believe it is an effective weapon both offensively and psychologically.   The scenario you presented with the 2 strikes and then the successful hit might not have transpired if the hitter swung away.  There are so many times when a bunt and run, sac, squeeze, ... drastically change a game.  I've helped coach a team that won a state title where we used the bunt extensively in the championship game. 

I'm fine with bunting in a situation where you "drastically change a game" to use your words. A first inning bunt with no outs doesn't come close to fitting that description. Late in a game to tie or take the lead? I'm all for that. But the most important resource is outs because you only get 21. If you're going to give one away there better be major returns. The misuse of outs via the bunt is a rampant problem throughout high school and college which is why I'd be happy banning it altogether.

Btw Atlee won 11-1. Good thing both teams played for that one run early. 

Emanski's Heroes posted:

High school playoff game (Stafford at Atlee). Lead off hitter for Stafford walks and we get the immediate bunt. Number three hitter doubles. 1-0. What might have happened if an out wasn't given away?

Bottom 1st: lead off hitter reaches 2nd on error. Coach has number 2 hitter attempt to bunt the runner to third twice before hitting a sharp single to left to score the run. Number 3 hitter promptly gives away an at bat with a weak grounder back to pitcher on a hit and run. 

Shockingly both coaches played for one run and its 1-1. Can we just stop talking the bat out of their hands? Let them hit and see what happens?

PS: top 2 now, lead off hitter walks, gets balked to second, and the hitter bunts through a pitch 1(again trying to bunt a runner to third) then strikes out. Painful. 

1) The bunt put the runner in scoring position and was the run was scored.  Mission accomplished!!!!  What might have happened if he didn't bunt...the no. 2 might have rolled into a 6-4-3, and no runs score.

2) Sounds to me that the issue was not with the decision to bunt, but with the 3 hitter not doing his job!

3) I would like to present the other side of the coin.  Perhaps this coach is so confident in his kids, that he believes that if they don't get the bunt down, as requested...which apparently they need a lot more practice...he has confidence that they can handle the bat with a strike or two.  Further, perhaps this is a game where the coaching staff sees more of a 3-2 or 4-3 type of outcome where every single run is precious.  Just a thought.

Sounds like the government.  I don't like this part of the game, so lets ban it.  I am not a fan of the sac bunt with 1 out, but that's why coaches coach.  Like or not.

No, if banned, would change the positioning of the corner infielders.

Why do pitchouts?  Why do pickoff attempts?  Why play your infield in?  Why shift?  Why hit and run?  All parts of the beauty of this game.   In most cases, 2 quality teams play each other, the game is decided by one play here, one play there.  That bunt could be the difference in a game.  Forces the coach to possibly pull his corners in when the same situation arises, and have the other coach swing away and pull one past the corner infielder all because that bunt earlier in the game set this situation up.   It's a strategy to get runs across the board.  Nobody likes seeing a 3 hitter bunt, but that's HS baseball.  

I would be willing to ban bunting if you are also willing to ban off speed pitches.

Statistically speaking, the sac bunt increases your chances of scoring one run slightly more than just hitting away. However it greatly decreases your chances of scoring more than one run.

You have to decide based on game situations whether or not you want to make that trade off.  There are too many variables to pass a blanket edict as to when the bunt is justified or not.

Hey Emanski, long time no see!

Hate to tell you, but I'm a big fan of bunting.  I especially like it as a key component of pressure offense -- where you use aggressive base running, then add the element of forcing the defense to make a play with runners in motion.  It's a great way to break the ice with an early run, and if the opposition is weak defensively, you can break their spirit early.  The fact that the game ended up 11-1 might very well have been precisely because of the early approach.  Sometimes, when you play for the big hit, it doesn't come, and everyone ends up squeezing the bat so tight they just don't hit.  But when you get that early 1-0, then you make it 2-0, then it gets to 4-0 ... the other team starts hanging their heads, you get into their bullpen, and the floodgates open.

It does kill me that so many guys bunt so poorly.  It's really an easy skill to learn, so to me, this is a sign of either the absence of sound instruction or ofthe player just not putting his work in -- or both.  At the two games at Deep Run last night, I think I saw 8 guys TRY to bunt but only two who got it done well.  One kid did the thing where he bunted for a hit but was so intent on dusting the chalk that although he would easily have been safe, the ball rolled foul.  Most of the others just couldn't make contact while bunting, which when you think about it is pretty absurd.

I would definitely ban players who can't bunt from my lineup.  Maybe that would solve your concerns from a different angle!

Can we ban 2-0 take signs, or "take until you get a strike"?

(just kidding .  .  . sort of)

Hey Midlo,

I've got a 20 month old daughter so my HSBBW time has been decreased. I'm currently trying to decide whether to teach her to bunt by pivoting or squaring around

This was the second high school game I've seen this season. 

2019Dad posted:

Can we ban 2-0 take signs, or "take until you get a strike"?

(just kidding .  .  . sort of)

2019Dad posted:

Can we ban 2-0 take signs, or "take until you get a strike"?

(just kidding .  .  . sort of)

How about just banning all signs on 2-0? Unless you have a sign for "get a good pitch and swing really freaking hard". What else are you putting on there?

My personal fave is the coach that goes through signs like he's got a hornet inside his uniform that he's trying to smash and there's clearly no reason to have anything on. 

Emanski's Heroes posted:

Hey Midlo,

I've got a 20 month old daughter so my HSBBW time has been decreased. I'm currently trying to decide whether to teach her to bunt by pivoting or squaring around

This was the second high school game I've seen this season. 

You're going to hate fastpitch softball if she decides someday to play it.  LOL

CoachB25 posted:

Emanski's Heroes posted:

Hey Midlo,

I've got a 20 month old daughter so my HSBBW time has been decreased. I'm currently trying to decide whether to teach her to bunt by pivoting or squaring around

This was the second high school game I've seen this season. 

You're going to hate fastpitch softball if she decides someday to play it.  LOL

teach her pitch and slap there is always a home for that.

Yep. Way too many outs given away in high school baseball.. borderline maddening... and with the top OBP hitters and RBI guys on deck! Huh? Most HS teams only have 5 quality hitters... you only get 21 outs.. and you give away 3 to 5 a game - and never have a 3 run inning?

How about HS errors, passed balls, wild pitches, stolen base percentage, double potential, etc?? Just throw those away and bunt? Would love to play against that strategy for money. Oh and don't forget how many players end up with 2 strikes because of it - and now a crucial situation..

How about bunting with 1 out and a man on first? 1 out?!  Math - man on first 1 out - runner scores approx. 50% of time. Man on 2B 2 outs - runner scores 30% of the time... A SUCCESSFUL bunt in this situation is a reduction of scoring potential of 40 %!!

Major League pitchers should bunt.. and if you are giving kids a bunt sign with 1 out, you'd be wiser to give them a take sign for the entire at bat.

CoachB25 posted:

I love the bunt and believe it is an effective weapon both offensively and psychologically.   The scenario you presented with the 2 strikes and then the successful hit might not have transpired if the hitter swung away.  There are so many times when a bunt and run, sac, squeeze, ... drastically change a game.  I've helped coach a team that won a state title where we used the bunt extensively in the championship game. 

Just because you get lucky sometimes and have a pitcher throw the ball over the 1st basemen's head 3 times in a row... Doesn't mean you did the right thing? :0)

I'll add that I am a big fan of a Safe squeeze... because the result is a run scored... but as for the rest of the early in game, bunting with one out to move people, sacrificing quality hitters. It's completely against the percentages... and a huge downer.

The bunt in baseball is what the prevent defense is to football. Old school ways of thinking that seem like good ideas but statistically/analytically don't measure up.

pitchout31 posted:

CoachB25 posted:

I love the bunt and believe it is an effective weapon both offensively and psychologically.   The scenario you presented with the 2 strikes and then the successful hit might not have transpired if the hitter swung away.  There are so many times when a bunt and run, sac, squeeze, ... drastically change a game.  I've helped coach a team that won a state title where we used the bunt extensively in the championship game. 

Just because you get lucky sometimes and have a pitcher throw the ball over the 1st basemen's head 3 times in a row... Doesn't mean you did the right thing? :0)

This intrigues me some.  Please explain. 

The reality is that a lot of HS lineups have 2-4 guys whose on base average is in the .250 range or lower.  Meaning, if you leave them to their own devices, you have a 75+% chance of them getting out.  Worse, a lot of those outs are K's.  So all too often it's an out where the runners go nowhere.  I would rather have that kid do something that might actually help lead to a score.

Now, if I have David Ortiz up there, he can swing away no matter what.  Easy decision.  But that's not what we're talking about. 

And if you're talking HS ball, where fielding is always iffy, you're not playing smart if you don't force the other side to make plays.  So often, they just don't make the plays.

Plus, why not make the corner guys play in, so that your sharp grounder then gets past them?

BTW this kind of baseball is especially valuable if you run into a team that has a big horse on the mound.  If you see one of those rare 95 mph guys, and you think you're going to put 10 hits on the board, good luck to you.  You either make things happen or you end up sucking wind.

What I really want is a team that knows how to do both things, so that the defense has to always wonder what's coming next, and so that you can attack in whatever way most exploits the other team's vulnerabilities.  Closing yourself off to one option just makes things that much easier on your opponent.

CoachB25 posted:

 

This intrigues me some.  Please explain. 

Just hypothetical sarcasm. What year was that State title?

Myself as a coach, except for a squeeze, we always bunt for a base hit and if it is only a sacrifice we are still good.  With that philosophy we either have 3-4 free singles from bunted singles or at worse case the other team squeezes down their defense and now the hitters average goes up for ground balls and line drive due to tighter defense.  Its good baseball, its chess, its mental warfare, its flat out fn with people some time.  The beauty of the game.  There are a ton of HS coaches that dont utilize the bunt properly and therefore some may misunderstand the reasons and applications.

I'm a big fan of the hit and run - try to shoot the ball to the right side and maybe get the 2B moving towards 2nd.  If the batter misses, you still have a straight up steal play - and hopefully don't get thrown out.  If the ball squeezes through the infield, runner ends up on third - runners on corners.  If they make a decent defensive play, you should still end up with runner on 2nd.  Worst case is you get doubled up or hit into double play, but you can drill this type of hitting.

pitchout31 posted:

Yep. Way too many outs given away in high school baseball.. borderline maddening... and with the top OBP hitters and RBI guys on deck! Huh? Most HS teams only have 5 quality hitters... you only get 21 outs.. and you give away 3 to 5 a game - and never have a 3 run inning?

How about HS errors, passed balls, wild pitches, stolen base percentage, double potential, etc?? Just throw those away and bunt? Would love to play against that strategy for money. Oh and don't forget how many players end up with 2 strikes because of it - and now a crucial situation..

How about bunting with 1 out and a man on first? 1 out?!  Math - man on first 1 out - runner scores approx. 50% of time. Man on 2B 2 outs - runner scores 30% of the time... A SUCCESSFUL bunt in this situation is a reduction of scoring potential of 40 %!!

Major League pitchers should bunt.. and if you are giving kids a bunt sign with 1 out, you'd be wiser to give them a take sign for the entire at bat.

 

 

Besides, chicks dig the long ball. 

pitchout31 posted:

CoachB25 posted:

 

This intrigues me some.  Please explain. 

Just hypothetical sarcasm. What year was that State title?

1990 when I was an assistant coach at Edwardsville High School.  However, used the bunt a lot in 1998 for a second state title.  BTW, runner up in 1991 after winning 64 games in a row. 

I think people make a mistake by using statistics from MLB and attempting to translate them to HS baseball. The spread in player skills is drastically different from the top of the roster to the bottom.

Example - we have a center fielder who covers way above average ground, plus arm and heady kid. he hits about .200 maybe less but he runs very well and has good instincts on bases. he strikes about 25% of his AB's...he should and does bunt every time there is a reasonable sacrifice situation vs a good pitcher. His strike out rate vs good pitching is probably 40% or so and his batting average is probably 150...he beats out or forces an error in at least 1 of 10 sacrifice attempts. It would be stupid not to bunt him.

I have told his father, who like many of you here hate the bunt, he should be bunting for a hit once a game and for a sac once a game, if that doesn't happen he isn't doing his job.

I believe the bunt is over used by some programs and totally misunderstood, ignored by others...

old_school posted:

I think people make a mistake by using statistics from MLB and attempting to translate them to HS baseball. The spread in player skills is drastically different from the top of the roster to the bottom.

 

This is a good point.  The bunt value calculations come from pro and college levels, so it is hard to take them as gospel at lower levels.

At the same time though, if you consider the lower defensive skills coupled with the lower offensive skills I think there could be more value to the bunt in high school - but it's hard to get enough of a sample size to calculate it.

My biggest issue isn't using the bunt in a strategic manner given the game situation - it's coaches who default to using the bunt any time a lead off batter gets to first.

P.S. If you are a coach who likes to sac bunt, please for the love of humanity make sure your players can get the bunt down.  As a fan there isn't much more frustrating than a hitter fouling off two bunts and then striking out.

old_school posted:

I think people make a mistake by using statistics from MLB and attempting to translate them to HS baseball. The spread in player skills is drastically different from the top of the roster to the bottom.

Agree. The inconsistency of high school bunt defenses is another reason MLB probabilities don't apply.

Crooked numbers are pretty - most of you guys would love me as a coach.  MOST of the time (situations will vary) I'm not looking to bunt until about the 5th inning or later because we need to tie, get the lead or add important insurance run late because they have a tough pitcher.  Outside of that you have a weapon in your hands so use it.

Love the hit and run as well but I don't believe you automatically try to go opposite field to the hole.  I still want my guys to hit it as hard as they can.  I have no statistical analysis for this but I believe with a runner in motion it puts more pressure on the defense trying to catch a hard hit ball while reacting to a runner.  But second worse case scenario is an out with a runner on second. Worst case is a double play - it happens.

Since I'm probably never going to play any of you guys let me just say if you see me get my lead off guy on and the batter is bunting then I'm trying to get that runner to third.  I'll do a bunt and run where the runner takes off on a steal but he's looking go to third.  Typical defenses will have the short stop backing up the throw to second on the steal.  The third baseman will usually charge.  So I want my guy to bunt it to third to vacate the base and my runner is basically racing the short stop and / or the catcher to third.  

I'll do the same with a runner on second but I'm looking to score.  This time bunt at first especially if they have a RH first baseman because they will usually turn their back to third to make the play.  LF first baseman don't.  This is a much riskier play but you can catch them napping.

I love putting runners in motion to see what the defense does.  Obviously I'm in the 3rd or 4th round of playoffs the other team isn't a slouch but they are still high school kids.  Pressure does a funny thing to kids.......even my own.

As we are in the Virginia forum, I would point out that Glen Allen's 3-2 win over Deep Run in the conference semifinal last night was fueled by a bunt fielded cleanly by the pitcher, but then thrown away.

I suppose we'll never know what the hitter would have done had he not bunted.  But we do know that without making something happen right then and there, the other team would be advancing right now, because that error created two runs.

I'm with Midlo and others on the pro-bunt in HS.  Some years we have a deep hitting lineup and will use it far less.  Some years, our league opponents will have more LHP's who can hold runners and we'll use it more.  There are lots of other variables but my experience is that bunting in HS is VERY effective.   It seems like most innings where runs are scored (for any team) involved a bunt somewhere.  

I also go against the grain of the stats and popular current thinking and will bunt early.  Assuming you are anticipating a competitive game or good pitching matchup, I find there is definite value to getting the early lead.  I like fast R2, 1 out with my 3 and 4 hitters up (of course, if defense is such, we will steal second instead of bunt but sometimes first go-around, it can be tricky for leadoff to see and get comfortable with P pick move before we need to get the bunt down).  And lot's of times, that is R1,R3 no out with 3 and 4 hitters up (due to overthrow or beating out the bunt).  Conversely, leadoff reaching and #2 grounding into a double play or K and then #3 GIDP to start a game is deflating.

That said, our hitters are instructed to bunt for hit when given bunt early in the game.

Here is a perspective on bunting and why.  I have been a HS baseball coach for 16 years and I know have a son in the youth ranks playing travel ball.  Week in and week out the lower ranks I see some REALLY BAD SWINGS that get rewarded during travel ball games.  These are swings that I know that do not translate and the HS level or further on but get rewarded due to the juiced bats(not illegally juiced).  I see even WORSE SWINGS at the rec ball level.  Now these kids get to HS and they are given a -3 BBCOR and have no idea how to hit.  You want to ban the bunt, how about give every kid a -3 BBCOR starting at age 8 and coaches won't have to bunt so much.  I know that at 14u kids transition to a -5 but it is still not the same.  If you want to allow the kids more freedom it starts with the kids learning how to ACTUALLY properly swing a baseball bat.  It is very easy to blame a high school coach and I to sac bunt but we are not the only ones to blame, the blame is on us, the parents, the system, and the kid himself.

It appears the only ones in favor of bunting are coaches. Ask the kids if they like bunting or swinging away. The game is played for them.

Wonder what former Diamondback Curt Schilling thinks of the bunt?

I have seen a HS baseball game where the team won 5-0 with NOT A SINGLE HIT outside of the infield.  Barry Bonds was by far the best bunter on the GIants. They used to have bunting contests which he always won. Bunting is part of bat control, which many kids never develop. 

Ok, here's a bunt story.  Freshman year.  Kid is up to bat.  Coach give him the "signs."  He swings, good base hit.  etc.  Stranded on the bases.  Poor kid was petrified he missed the sign.  Comes into the dugout after the third out and asks coach -- "did you give me the bunt sign."  Coach looks at him, laughs, and says "what, you think I'm freaking crazy."   

Same story here, golfman25.  Local high school coach gave an up and coming stud the bunt sign in a game.  Young man fouled off two bunts.  Coach took the  bunt sign off.  Young man launched one over the left field fence.  Never got another bunt sign during his high school career.

Not advocating the elimination of the bunt.  It has its time and place!