The hips are gone,the shoulders are gone and the bat is just starting.
Is that what you say leaving the barrel and hands behind?Seems to work pretty well for him.
Just looks like the rubber band affect to me along with the box.
As I am responding with this,I see your response.
I didn't say the box was MAINTAINED,I said it gets you to proper position at contact.it is clear there is a box in the photo I posted but you often see and say something different from what you post.
My GOD,look at where the clip of bonds freezes.There couldn't be a more perfect box if you drew it with a square.
Well....I guess I could draw a box anywhere. How about a horizontal through his belly button, down his sides to his belt.
Means as much as drawing a box through his arms if the movement or maintenance is irrelevant.
The box is always associated with "maintaining it", as you swing, as if that has something to do with anything.
I can tell by your definition of motion that you're into still pictures....the position they get to.
Good luck with that.
I'm in Pujol's position right now. I didn't swing. I just assumed the position. Is that all I need to do?
The smart money is on how they get to that position.
Means as much as drawing a box through his arms if the movement or maintenance is irrelevant.
The box is always associated with "maintaining it", as you swing, as if that has something to do with anything.
I can tell by your definition of motion that you're into still pictures....the position they get to.
Good luck with that.
I'm in Pujol's position right now. I didn't swing. I just assumed the position. Is that all I need to do?
The smart money is on how they get to that position.
The clip you posted of Jim Thome you said his hips were open but he stopped his swing,heck,his hips BARELY moved.His hips were far from open.If they had been open,his belt buckle would have been facing the pitcher.
That is what I mean you see something different from what you post.
You have alot to offer but back up and punt from time to time.
That is what I mean you see something different from what you post.
You have alot to offer but back up and punt from time to time.
No....I don't need to back up.
YOU need to get up to speed.
You need to learn what these details mean.
Thome's hips ARE open.....and yet he didn't swing. Learn what that means. It will help you.
Did you see this one?
Is Posada open enough?.....even though he didn't swing.
More importantly....watch what his barrel does AS his hips open.
YOU need to get up to speed.
You need to learn what these details mean.
Thome's hips ARE open.....and yet he didn't swing. Learn what that means. It will help you.
Did you see this one?
Is Posada open enough?.....even though he didn't swing.
More importantly....watch what his barrel does AS his hips open.
quote:
I'm in Pujol's position right now. I didn't swing. I just assumed the position. Is that all I need to do?
The smart money is on how they get to that position.
You prove my point.How do you get to the proper position AT CONTACT? I have said that repeatedly.The box,which both bonds and Pujols demonstarte quite vividly can get you there.It isn't maintained but can be used as a learning tool.
All I ask in a debate is two minds.
One is missing here.
Later.
One is missing here.
Later.
Yes,his hips were open but there again,you make my point for me.
Good thing the hands and the bat barrel was behind,which you stated was a problem with your son's previous style.
You can see,I am NOT promoting any particular style,which I will not do.
I am pointing out flaws in all this bickering you seem to enjoy so much.
Good thing the hands and the bat barrel was behind,which you stated was a problem with your son's previous style.
You can see,I am NOT promoting any particular style,which I will not do.
I am pointing out flaws in all this bickering you seem to enjoy so much.
And when the debate gets to be more than YOU can handle,out come the personal attacks.
Thanks for staying true to form.Very predictable.
You would get alot more respect if you left that **** to yourself.Trust me,I am.
Thanks for staying true to form.Very predictable.
You would get alot more respect if you left that **** to yourself.Trust me,I am.
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
Did you see this one?
Is Posada open enough?.....even though he didn't swing.
More importantly....watch what his barrel does AS his hips open.
Could you be so kind as to point out the point in time of Posadas "Go" move in the clip on the right?
Between all the personal attacks and the bashing and the I know more than you and your way stinks. I have to admit I learned from all of you guys. At least some of these guys post clips and are brave enough to believe in a system and stand up and say your way is right or your way is wrong. And when I say all of you I really do mean all of you. I feel you can take alot of information and make it work for you , whether it be someone's rotation theory and someone else's linear theory. I have read all the threads and all the arguing but in between it all I learned alot and passed it on to my son.
So for that I say thanks!
So for that I say thanks!
Chameleon,
Once again, your posts have got me asking alot of questions. I'll try to organize these to make it easier to reply if you have time....
1) Could you re-post the video of Posada and Thome taking the pitches, and slow down the video? I suspect there is much to be learned from how these hitter take pitches, maybe as much as seeing a slow mo full swing video.
2) When hips start opening....Though the videos are pretty fast, it looks like Posada's front foot lands pretty well closed, which leads me to think his hips do not start opening until the front foot is completely down. Hard for me to tell with the speed of the video. Looking back at the Matt Holliday video you posted previously (full swing), he appears to start opening the hips while his front foot is in the still up, landing with his toe pointed pretty well right at the pitcher. Is either of these methods preferable? Is it just a "style" thing? Seems to me it might be important...but I don't know when the hands should start (i.e. barrel tip? or swivel?) in relation to the hips starting to open.
3) Hand path - how would you describe the ideal hand path? I realize pitch location probably affects any answer so you can give multiple answers here I guess if you need to. But, I'm curious if you like a "circular hand path" prescribed by Mankin or a more straightish path? Do you like the hand path to be relatively close to the body or do you like "extension". Perhaps those things aren't mutually exclusive. Or is the hand path just a reactionary thing for the hitter?
4) Looking at the video of your son, I notice his back foot doesn't rotate around onto the toe which I commonly see in MLB players. Is that significant? I'm guessing it might not be given the bat speed he's generating. But, he appears to have a bit of an inward turn with his foot, kinda rolling his rear foot toward his front foot. His hip turn looks pretty full in the newer 2nd clip, so perhaps it's not that big of a deal.
Thanks again for patiently answering my previous questions. And I look forward to seeing what you have to say here.
Jon
Once again, your posts have got me asking alot of questions. I'll try to organize these to make it easier to reply if you have time....
1) Could you re-post the video of Posada and Thome taking the pitches, and slow down the video? I suspect there is much to be learned from how these hitter take pitches, maybe as much as seeing a slow mo full swing video.
2) When hips start opening....Though the videos are pretty fast, it looks like Posada's front foot lands pretty well closed, which leads me to think his hips do not start opening until the front foot is completely down. Hard for me to tell with the speed of the video. Looking back at the Matt Holliday video you posted previously (full swing), he appears to start opening the hips while his front foot is in the still up, landing with his toe pointed pretty well right at the pitcher. Is either of these methods preferable? Is it just a "style" thing? Seems to me it might be important...but I don't know when the hands should start (i.e. barrel tip? or swivel?) in relation to the hips starting to open.
3) Hand path - how would you describe the ideal hand path? I realize pitch location probably affects any answer so you can give multiple answers here I guess if you need to. But, I'm curious if you like a "circular hand path" prescribed by Mankin or a more straightish path? Do you like the hand path to be relatively close to the body or do you like "extension". Perhaps those things aren't mutually exclusive. Or is the hand path just a reactionary thing for the hitter?
4) Looking at the video of your son, I notice his back foot doesn't rotate around onto the toe which I commonly see in MLB players. Is that significant? I'm guessing it might not be given the bat speed he's generating. But, he appears to have a bit of an inward turn with his foot, kinda rolling his rear foot toward his front foot. His hip turn looks pretty full in the newer 2nd clip, so perhaps it's not that big of a deal.
Thanks again for patiently answering my previous questions. And I look forward to seeing what you have to say here.
Jon
Its in the game. Good post. There is plenty of dead hands in the game. Especialy at the younger ages and even into HS and college. Most of it is coach driven. Its illiminate movement and keep the head and body as still as possible then let the aluminum bat do the work, if only you can just get the bat to make contact with the ball.
I also see the war's continue over theory. There just aren't many good hitters who just hang onto the bat and turn.
I also see the war's continue over theory. There just aren't many good hitters who just hang onto the bat and turn.
You asked....so here goes....
I believe the hips start to open as the weight shfits forward. It's part of the "lower body running start". How much they open does vary hitter to hitter.....and also pitch to pitch in the same hitter. I think the goal of "keeping them closed until toe touch" is a horrible thought. If you consider each hitter has his own "rhythm"...and his own amount of movement and speed of movement necessary for him to "get there" (launch zone) on time....I think you'll see that on some pithces the same hitter will be swinging before the foot gets down and on other pitches he may sit into his front leg before he swings. I think the hitters personal rhythm creates a "window"....a "margin of error"....that lets him launch early or later depending on the pitch speed and location.
So...the hips open, within the hitter's rhythm EVERY PITCH, and hopefully that matches closely the pitchers rhythm. This opening of the hips, before "go", is to create separation and stretch. You really need to achieve a certain threshhold of stretch on every pitch but you can easily get more by delaying launch.
Launch is completely controlled by the hands. So...start the process, get the stretch creation going...you recognize fastball inside....SWING. If you recognize off speed.....keep stretching....THEN SWING.
This is all possible because the swing becomes instantaneous once you get your rhythm and stretch/separation creation process down pat. The time from decision (go) to contact must be instantneous. It must be just as quick as the time it takes a pinball flipper to flip after you hit the button. Or the time it takes your forefinger to launch from it's load against the thumb in the marble example I used earlier.
Once you learn just how to do that and the amount of time you need to do so, you then learn to "carve out" that much time against each pitcher. That time carved out will include a margin of error that allows you to swing quickly in the process...or continue the stretch and swing later...or anything in between.
I am not a fan of circular hand path teaching. In fact, I think mlb hitters try to NOT have a circular hand path...becaue a circular hand path pulls them off the ball...out of the zone. But, I also acknowledge that they will always have one because the body's rotation will eventually create one. Fight it all you want...the body's rotation is going to bend the hand path.
I teach my son to visualize three lines on the ground. One from his hands to the shortstop, one from his hands to the pitcher and the other from his hands to the second baseman. These are three paths that the hands will take...I guess technically there are an infinite number of paths but this gets him thinking "in the ballpark" about what and where they should go. And...they will not travel down these lines very far before rotation "wins" and bends them. But, to allow rotation to "win" too early, or to attempt to create a circular hand path, pulls the hitter off the ball.
I believe Mankin and others misread the video. The HANDS are turning the barrel...NOT THE SHOULDERS. This is a VERY important point. And since the hands are turning the barrel, powered by forearm rotation, this allows the arms to move the hands....down one of those three lines...while they turn the barrel....to the path of the ball.
Notice the path of Guillen's hands on these different pitch locations. IMO they travel to the ball as he turns the barrel. The length of travel has much to do with the speed of the pitch and his own personal swing and rhythm.
The marks on this clip of Ryan Howard also demonstrate the hand path.
The key is to be able to turn the barrel rearward at "go", generating batspeed, early batspeed, before commitment, which can then be adjusted as necessary. AND, this adjustment can easily be made due to the fact that the barrel going rearward "locks" the hands at the armpit for the first few frames of the swing. IF batspeed was created by moving to the ball, whether by arm pull or shoulder rotation, this would not be possible.
I believe Brandon's rear foot could be better. Most hitters get all the way to their toes....and some all the way off the ground.
Here is a hitter that rarely gets to his toe. And it doesn't seem to have an influence on his power.
Here is another hitter that does the same thing through contact, foot barely raises, and THEN gets to his toe long after the ball has left.
More Bonds
IMO, it has to do with the amount of momentum you are able to generate in the swing rotation process. I believe Brandon's mechanics match these two hitters pretty well (if you consider there will always be individual differences). I believe as he "grows" in his new mechanics, he'll be able to execute them better, and with better execution will come more momentum and he will eventually get to his toe.
In other words....I don't think it is a "mechanics" issue. I think it is a "strength within his mechanics" issue. And that it will improve with reps.
And, more importantly. Beware of internet comments and/or in person coaches that use the rear foot as an absolute. You and your son will know by the ball flight just how important that is to you.
Trust the ball flight. I have witnessed numerous "swing suggestions" that get a player onto his toe while at the same time reduces his explosiveness and power and his ability to get the barrel to the ball on time.
BTW...a thought....if there is truly and equal and opposite reaction for each action....what way should the rear foot go?
quote:Originally posted by willj1967:
2) When hips start opening....Though the videos are pretty fast, it looks like Posada's front foot lands pretty well closed, which leads me to think his hips do not start opening until the front foot is completely down. Hard for me to tell with the speed of the video. Looking back at the Matt Holliday video you posted previously (full swing), he appears to start opening the hips while his front foot is in the still up, landing with his toe pointed pretty well right at the pitcher. Is either of these methods preferable? Is it just a "style" thing? Seems to me it might be important...but I don't know when the hands should start (i.e. barrel tip? or swivel?) in relation to the hips starting to open.
I believe the hips start to open as the weight shfits forward. It's part of the "lower body running start". How much they open does vary hitter to hitter.....and also pitch to pitch in the same hitter. I think the goal of "keeping them closed until toe touch" is a horrible thought. If you consider each hitter has his own "rhythm"...and his own amount of movement and speed of movement necessary for him to "get there" (launch zone) on time....I think you'll see that on some pithces the same hitter will be swinging before the foot gets down and on other pitches he may sit into his front leg before he swings. I think the hitters personal rhythm creates a "window"....a "margin of error"....that lets him launch early or later depending on the pitch speed and location.
So...the hips open, within the hitter's rhythm EVERY PITCH, and hopefully that matches closely the pitchers rhythm. This opening of the hips, before "go", is to create separation and stretch. You really need to achieve a certain threshhold of stretch on every pitch but you can easily get more by delaying launch.
Launch is completely controlled by the hands. So...start the process, get the stretch creation going...you recognize fastball inside....SWING. If you recognize off speed.....keep stretching....THEN SWING.
This is all possible because the swing becomes instantaneous once you get your rhythm and stretch/separation creation process down pat. The time from decision (go) to contact must be instantneous. It must be just as quick as the time it takes a pinball flipper to flip after you hit the button. Or the time it takes your forefinger to launch from it's load against the thumb in the marble example I used earlier.
Once you learn just how to do that and the amount of time you need to do so, you then learn to "carve out" that much time against each pitcher. That time carved out will include a margin of error that allows you to swing quickly in the process...or continue the stretch and swing later...or anything in between.
quote:3) Hand path - how would you describe the ideal hand path? I realize pitch location probably affects any answer so you can give multiple answers here I guess if you need to. But, I'm curious if you like a "circular hand path" prescribed by Mankin or a more straightish path? Do you like the hand path to be relatively close to the body or do you like "extension". Perhaps those things aren't mutually exclusive. Or is the hand path just a reactionary thing for the hitter?
I am not a fan of circular hand path teaching. In fact, I think mlb hitters try to NOT have a circular hand path...becaue a circular hand path pulls them off the ball...out of the zone. But, I also acknowledge that they will always have one because the body's rotation will eventually create one. Fight it all you want...the body's rotation is going to bend the hand path.
I teach my son to visualize three lines on the ground. One from his hands to the shortstop, one from his hands to the pitcher and the other from his hands to the second baseman. These are three paths that the hands will take...I guess technically there are an infinite number of paths but this gets him thinking "in the ballpark" about what and where they should go. And...they will not travel down these lines very far before rotation "wins" and bends them. But, to allow rotation to "win" too early, or to attempt to create a circular hand path, pulls the hitter off the ball.
I believe Mankin and others misread the video. The HANDS are turning the barrel...NOT THE SHOULDERS. This is a VERY important point. And since the hands are turning the barrel, powered by forearm rotation, this allows the arms to move the hands....down one of those three lines...while they turn the barrel....to the path of the ball.
Notice the path of Guillen's hands on these different pitch locations. IMO they travel to the ball as he turns the barrel. The length of travel has much to do with the speed of the pitch and his own personal swing and rhythm.
The marks on this clip of Ryan Howard also demonstrate the hand path.
The key is to be able to turn the barrel rearward at "go", generating batspeed, early batspeed, before commitment, which can then be adjusted as necessary. AND, this adjustment can easily be made due to the fact that the barrel going rearward "locks" the hands at the armpit for the first few frames of the swing. IF batspeed was created by moving to the ball, whether by arm pull or shoulder rotation, this would not be possible.
quote:4) Looking at the video of your son, I notice his back foot doesn't rotate around onto the toe which I commonly see in MLB players. Is that significant? I'm guessing it might not be given the bat speed he's generating. But, he appears to have a bit of an inward turn with his foot, kinda rolling his rear foot toward his front foot. His hip turn looks pretty full in the newer 2nd clip, so perhaps it's not that big of a deal.
I believe Brandon's rear foot could be better. Most hitters get all the way to their toes....and some all the way off the ground.
Here is a hitter that rarely gets to his toe. And it doesn't seem to have an influence on his power.
Here is another hitter that does the same thing through contact, foot barely raises, and THEN gets to his toe long after the ball has left.
More Bonds
IMO, it has to do with the amount of momentum you are able to generate in the swing rotation process. I believe Brandon's mechanics match these two hitters pretty well (if you consider there will always be individual differences). I believe as he "grows" in his new mechanics, he'll be able to execute them better, and with better execution will come more momentum and he will eventually get to his toe.
In other words....I don't think it is a "mechanics" issue. I think it is a "strength within his mechanics" issue. And that it will improve with reps.
And, more importantly. Beware of internet comments and/or in person coaches that use the rear foot as an absolute. You and your son will know by the ball flight just how important that is to you.
Trust the ball flight. I have witnessed numerous "swing suggestions" that get a player onto his toe while at the same time reduces his explosiveness and power and his ability to get the barrel to the ball on time.
BTW...a thought....if there is truly and equal and opposite reaction for each action....what way should the rear foot go?
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:quote:4) Looking at the video of your son, I notice his back foot doesn't rotate around onto the toe which I commonly see in MLB players. Is that significant? I'm guessing it might not be given the bat speed he's generating. But, he appears to have a bit of an inward turn with his foot, kinda rolling his rear foot toward his front foot. His hip turn looks pretty full in the newer 2nd clip, so perhaps it's not that big of a deal.
I believe Brandon's rear foot could be better. Most hitters get all the way to their toes....and some all the way off the ground.
Here is a hitter that rarely gets to his toe. And it doesn't seem to have an influence on his power.
Here is another hitter that does the same thing through contact, foot barely raises, and THEN gets to his toe long after the ball has left.
More Bonds
IMO, it has to do with the amount of momentum you are able to generate in the swing rotation process. I believe Brandon's mechanics match these two hitters pretty well (if you consider there will always be individual differences). I believe as he "grows" in his new mechanics, he'll be able to execute them better, and with better execution will come more momentum and he will eventually get to his toe.
In other words....I don't think it is a "mechanics" issue. I think it is a "strength within his mechanics" issue. And that it will improve with reps.
And, more importantly. Beware of internet comments and/or in person coaches that use the rear foot as an absolute. You and your son will know by the ball flight just how important that is to you.
Trust the ball flight. I have witnessed numerous "swing suggestions" that get a player onto his toe while at the same time reduces his explosiveness and power and his ability to get the barrel to the ball on time.
BTW...a thought....if there is truly and equal and opposite reaction for each action....what way should the rear foot go?
Chameleon,
Do you think the reason some hitters come up on their toe more could be their back to front body movement? Just wondering if you've looked at enough side view videos to be able to tell if there could be any correlation. I'm more talking head movement.
C-
Thanks for taking the time, and now I'll try to take some more of it (this might be a good spot for one of those little winking smiley faces but I find them annoying). I think I'm following what you're saying. One thing I don't quite get yet is the "stretch", which I'm guessing means to counter the slight linear movement forward and/or the opening of the hips, with movement in the hands/forearms.
Am I in the neighborhood with that crude description? Let me tell you a couple things I think I see and you tell me if I'm right or if I've lost my mind.
I'm a lifelong Cardinals fan so I'm obviously pretty familiar with Pujols' swing...so I'll start there. The slow motion video you posted previously showed that when Pujols picks up his front foot, he begins a slight forward movement of his body (toward the pitcher). To be honest, before seeing that in slo mo, I just assumed he remained stable or leaned back into the inside of his back leg at that time. Mistake number 1000 for me. I also notice that Albert starts with a high back elbow, then appears to take it even higher and tips his bat forward(??), all while he has his front foot up and is moving his body forward.
Is this the "stretch"? Is Albert offsetting the linear movement forward and the initial opening of the hips with raising his back arm and tipping his bat forward? Am I trying to make this too simple? To be honest, I'm not even sure if I'm asking the right questions. It seems there must be more to it. Do you take the hands toward the backstop? Do you take the front elbow/arm toward the backstop? Do you make a little inward turn? Or do the hands stay in the same general spot, but torque or twist a bit to allow the bat to tip?
It's pretty easy to see in the videos at hittingillustrated.com that Pujols does not "hide his hands". Even from a camera angle toward the shortstop side of the pitcher, you can still see his hands when he loads and unloads. So surely the pitcher has a 100% view of them. He obviously keeps them in front of his body.
I'd love to hear an explanation any and all of this stuff.
Once I figure this out a bit, I'd like to talk more about the swivel and how exactly that is accomplished (mechanically).
Thanks.
Jon
Thanks for taking the time, and now I'll try to take some more of it (this might be a good spot for one of those little winking smiley faces but I find them annoying). I think I'm following what you're saying. One thing I don't quite get yet is the "stretch", which I'm guessing means to counter the slight linear movement forward and/or the opening of the hips, with movement in the hands/forearms.
Am I in the neighborhood with that crude description? Let me tell you a couple things I think I see and you tell me if I'm right or if I've lost my mind.
I'm a lifelong Cardinals fan so I'm obviously pretty familiar with Pujols' swing...so I'll start there. The slow motion video you posted previously showed that when Pujols picks up his front foot, he begins a slight forward movement of his body (toward the pitcher). To be honest, before seeing that in slo mo, I just assumed he remained stable or leaned back into the inside of his back leg at that time. Mistake number 1000 for me. I also notice that Albert starts with a high back elbow, then appears to take it even higher and tips his bat forward(??), all while he has his front foot up and is moving his body forward.
Is this the "stretch"? Is Albert offsetting the linear movement forward and the initial opening of the hips with raising his back arm and tipping his bat forward? Am I trying to make this too simple? To be honest, I'm not even sure if I'm asking the right questions. It seems there must be more to it. Do you take the hands toward the backstop? Do you take the front elbow/arm toward the backstop? Do you make a little inward turn? Or do the hands stay in the same general spot, but torque or twist a bit to allow the bat to tip?
It's pretty easy to see in the videos at hittingillustrated.com that Pujols does not "hide his hands". Even from a camera angle toward the shortstop side of the pitcher, you can still see his hands when he loads and unloads. So surely the pitcher has a 100% view of them. He obviously keeps them in front of his body.
I'd love to hear an explanation any and all of this stuff.
Once I figure this out a bit, I'd like to talk more about the swivel and how exactly that is accomplished (mechanically).
Thanks.
Jon
Generally speaking, stretch is created when you turn the lower body one way (open) while the upper body turns the other way (closes). When you do that far enough you will come to a limit....where it just doesn't go any further. Something has to give. I guess that would be max stretch.
Now, you will see other examples of stretch. Sometimes the upper body doesn't close it just "holds". It provides the resistance for the lower body to open against. Sometimes you see the hitter use the barrel (sending it rearward) to provide the resistance for the lower body to open against.
In any case....the hitter ends up with a rubber band type stretched feeling. That wants to unwind. The hips don't stop once they reach stretch. They continue. And eventually you reach a point that the swing is almost a 'release' rather than a swing....although the release occurs as the hands send the barrel rearward.
Here is a clip of Pujols creating stretch.
There is forward movement. There is hip opening. There isn't much turn rearward of the upper body...but there is a cocking of the barrel which does the same thing.
Basically, you're just trying to gain a mechanical advantage....an unstretch....and unwind of something that is already wound. Like the hips pulling against the hands....but the hands have a "hold" on the system....and then they release the "hold" and the barrel is accelerated rapidly by the release as much as by the energy supply.
Here is Chipper using the barrel's rearward movement to "stretch" against in his left hand swing.
As soon as Chipper lifts his leg he has an uninterrupted, fluid, rhythmic lower body running start that works against the rearward turning barrel.
Notice the "link" between the lead knee and the barrel. They are synced as they create stretch.
His right hand swing is similar but a little different. Same thing going on.....separation/stretch.....just achieved with a slight variation.
And the guy with the best mechanics EVER....
The last "nope" should be a "yep". But....during all the other "nopes", Bonds is creating stretch, reading the pitch, making a decision, then......KAPOW.
Basically a 3 frame swing....because he can check it up until the last possible second because his launch is instantaneous......due to the stretch and fire mechanics. The immediate launch and spend.
Now, you will see other examples of stretch. Sometimes the upper body doesn't close it just "holds". It provides the resistance for the lower body to open against. Sometimes you see the hitter use the barrel (sending it rearward) to provide the resistance for the lower body to open against.
In any case....the hitter ends up with a rubber band type stretched feeling. That wants to unwind. The hips don't stop once they reach stretch. They continue. And eventually you reach a point that the swing is almost a 'release' rather than a swing....although the release occurs as the hands send the barrel rearward.
Here is a clip of Pujols creating stretch.
There is forward movement. There is hip opening. There isn't much turn rearward of the upper body...but there is a cocking of the barrel which does the same thing.
Basically, you're just trying to gain a mechanical advantage....an unstretch....and unwind of something that is already wound. Like the hips pulling against the hands....but the hands have a "hold" on the system....and then they release the "hold" and the barrel is accelerated rapidly by the release as much as by the energy supply.
Here is Chipper using the barrel's rearward movement to "stretch" against in his left hand swing.
As soon as Chipper lifts his leg he has an uninterrupted, fluid, rhythmic lower body running start that works against the rearward turning barrel.
Notice the "link" between the lead knee and the barrel. They are synced as they create stretch.
His right hand swing is similar but a little different. Same thing going on.....separation/stretch.....just achieved with a slight variation.
And the guy with the best mechanics EVER....
The last "nope" should be a "yep". But....during all the other "nopes", Bonds is creating stretch, reading the pitch, making a decision, then......KAPOW.
Basically a 3 frame swing....because he can check it up until the last possible second because his launch is instantaneous......due to the stretch and fire mechanics. The immediate launch and spend.
The more you sit, the more you can stretch...
To delay "go" once you are really stretched, sit some and stretch some more....
To delay "go" once you are really stretched, sit some and stretch some more....
On the offspeed stuff and how do you "wait", I used to believe that you 'sat' more and then launched.
I may be picking nits...but that gives me a feeling of stopping and then starting. That is an absolute no no. As you sit, you can not slow or stop or hesitate to wait for the ball.
In other words, when you sit you can not stop the hips from opening. Once those hips begin the stretch process you can not stop and restart.
I feel it happens more like this. Your good swing has a time duration to it....from beginning of stretch creation to launch and within that you have a margin of error within the stretch process.
So....I believe the lower body is consistent every swing....the hitter starts his stretch and there is a crescendo of hip energy. It starts small and builds. As it builds, so does the "hold". Then you reach a point that enough stretch is created to pull off a very good swing.....but more can still be created if necessary....all controlled by the hands. This is the launch window.
In other words the lower body is the ongoing people mover at the airport. (Example in another thread) Once it starts it continues...and it builds in strength over a period of time (crescendo) that matches the hitters rhythm and his timing. This hip movment is consistent every swing. The crescendo is consistent every swing. The "window" of launch, that is within this crescendo, is consistent every attempt......so that swinging early for the heat...to the swinging later for the offspeed...can be accomplished by simply controlling the release of the barrel rearward. Adequate stretch has been created to "launch and spend" on both the fastball and the offspeed. Your hands are in control. When your eyes say it's time....send it rearward. Instantaneously. On any pitch because of the "stretch window".
This really highlights the "instantaneous" launch present in high level hitters. Because the launch is instantaneous and because they have learned how to create this "stretch window"....they are really really tough.
So.....the sit? I suppose. As your hands "hold" longer for the offspeed you will sit more. As the crescendo of the hips continue you will lower your center of gravity and appear to be sitting. But, IMO, the sit is the effect.....not the cause.
That is why you'll see Bonds appear to start his swing before his front foot lands......often. Yet....you'll see him "wait" also.
This leads to something else you can chew on.
I believe teaching toe touch to heel drop as the beginning of hip rotation....or as the launch of the swing.....or as some indicator of anything.....is nonsense.
The REAL significant indicator is "go". Compare where hitters feet are at "go".....Do not compare anything to toe touch or heel drop.
And look at Bonds "go" decision in each of these swings.
Bonds Chase
I may be picking nits...but that gives me a feeling of stopping and then starting. That is an absolute no no. As you sit, you can not slow or stop or hesitate to wait for the ball.
In other words, when you sit you can not stop the hips from opening. Once those hips begin the stretch process you can not stop and restart.
I feel it happens more like this. Your good swing has a time duration to it....from beginning of stretch creation to launch and within that you have a margin of error within the stretch process.
So....I believe the lower body is consistent every swing....the hitter starts his stretch and there is a crescendo of hip energy. It starts small and builds. As it builds, so does the "hold". Then you reach a point that enough stretch is created to pull off a very good swing.....but more can still be created if necessary....all controlled by the hands. This is the launch window.
In other words the lower body is the ongoing people mover at the airport. (Example in another thread) Once it starts it continues...and it builds in strength over a period of time (crescendo) that matches the hitters rhythm and his timing. This hip movment is consistent every swing. The crescendo is consistent every swing. The "window" of launch, that is within this crescendo, is consistent every attempt......so that swinging early for the heat...to the swinging later for the offspeed...can be accomplished by simply controlling the release of the barrel rearward. Adequate stretch has been created to "launch and spend" on both the fastball and the offspeed. Your hands are in control. When your eyes say it's time....send it rearward. Instantaneously. On any pitch because of the "stretch window".
This really highlights the "instantaneous" launch present in high level hitters. Because the launch is instantaneous and because they have learned how to create this "stretch window"....they are really really tough.
So.....the sit? I suppose. As your hands "hold" longer for the offspeed you will sit more. As the crescendo of the hips continue you will lower your center of gravity and appear to be sitting. But, IMO, the sit is the effect.....not the cause.
That is why you'll see Bonds appear to start his swing before his front foot lands......often. Yet....you'll see him "wait" also.
This leads to something else you can chew on.
I believe teaching toe touch to heel drop as the beginning of hip rotation....or as the launch of the swing.....or as some indicator of anything.....is nonsense.
The REAL significant indicator is "go". Compare where hitters feet are at "go".....Do not compare anything to toe touch or heel drop.
And look at Bonds "go" decision in each of these swings.
Bonds Chase
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
I agree that the video of Chameleon's son is very telling.....Those videos, IMO, are truth in advertising.......
His swing has prospered with "stretch and fire" and "launch and spend".......Just the homerun stats, alone, are proof enough for me.......
looks like chameleons boy hits the ball better his bat speed is better and he gets more extension,,does his back leg concern you? why cant brandon get on his toe? does it matter? no sarcasm just wondering?
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
No....I don't need to back up.
YOU need to get up to speed.
You need to learn what these details mean.
Thome's hips ARE open.....and yet he didn't swing. Learn what that means. It will help you.
Did you see this one?
Is Posada open enough?.....even though he didn't swing.
More importantly....watch what his barrel does AS his hips open.
this is a great clip..wheres the box on clip 2?..looks like alot of hand action and running start,,,,a yes yes yes yes no ,
The box is there,it is plain to see,well,atleast the box that my son is being taught is there.Look where he stops,there is a perfect box with the bottom hand and front elbow but IT IS NOT maintained throughout the swing.
Naturally,pitch location will determine exactly when and where the box is broken off and extension starts.
No sense arguning over semantics,but it is there.
IMO,look at the right clip,where he stops is where the box ends and extension starts on a perfect pitch scenario.
But I agree,there is alot of running start and hand action,that is what is important.
Naturally,pitch location will determine exactly when and where the box is broken off and extension starts.
No sense arguning over semantics,but it is there.
IMO,look at the right clip,where he stops is where the box ends and extension starts on a perfect pitch scenario.
But I agree,there is alot of running start and hand action,that is what is important.
quote:.......does his back leg concern you? why cant brandon get on his toe? does it matter?
No....Don't know, maybe he knows.......Not to me.....
quote:.......does his back leg concern you? why cant brandon get on his toe? does it matter?
Chameleon,
You've done a great job with your boy, but It's the only thing in his swing that does concern me.
You guys that are such big believers in video should take all your video and see how many great hitters do not get on the back toe in one way or another... Rather than finding one or two who don't!
Just my opinion. He would be in a better position and hit even better if he made that one change. Though it may not be entirely necessary, it is by far the general rule.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:quote:.......does his back leg concern you? why cant brandon get on his toe? does it matter?
Chameleon,
You've done a great job with your boy, but It's the only thing in his swing that does concern me.
You guys that are such big believers in video should take all your video and see how many great hitters do not get on the back toe in one way or another... Rather than finding one or two who don't!
Just my opinion. He would be in a better position and hit even better if he made that one change. Though it may not be entirely necessary, it is by far the general rule.
PG,
What in your opinion makes a hitter go on their toe? I know John Cohen says that the back knee should be driving in the direction you are hitting the ball. I believe that too, but my son kind of spins on the bottom of his back toes, if you can picture that, and ends up with his knee facing the Pitcher pretty much on every swing. He has power to all fields, so I hesitate to try to "fix" it. Like you say, most good hitters do get to their toe, but it's not usually at the same point in the swing when they do and some even come all the way off the ground, as you also point out. Like I indicated to Chameleon in an earlier post, I think it might be due to weight shift. The more a hitter transfers his weight to the front foot, the more he will come to his back toe or even off the ground. I guess I'm saying, where is the energy going? I'm wondering if it might not be like a follow through. Meaning, that what happens with it after the ball is gone really doesn't matter. Bond's foot spins out completely on many pitches, but that's only because he holds onto the bat with both hands, finishes below his shoulders, has incredible core strength and rotation. The only guy I can think of with the big back to front motion that didn't get to his toe much was Cal Ripken, but I have to think his forward momentum (of his head) was stopped before he started his hands forward. It could also be the distance their feet are apart at contact.
I'd like to hear you guy's opinions on what you think causes this to happen or why you think it is or isn't important.
mic,
I will reply later, don't have time right now. It's not a must, but it can help a hitter open up and cover the inner half of the plate better. To me it's not quite as important on the outside pitch.
It just seems that not getting the back foot turned can restrict the swing in "most" hitters. I understand there are exceptions as always. It's kind of like a pitcher releasing the ball without his foot changing position. Not sure there are any exceptions in that though.
I will reply later, don't have time right now. It's not a must, but it can help a hitter open up and cover the inner half of the plate better. To me it's not quite as important on the outside pitch.
It just seems that not getting the back foot turned can restrict the swing in "most" hitters. I understand there are exceptions as always. It's kind of like a pitcher releasing the ball without his foot changing position. Not sure there are any exceptions in that though.
