Change vs. Curve

It sounds like you are in HS, and in general fewer HS players can hit a CB. The reason your coach likes CB’s, is because they are easier to get two plane movement on them, hence HS coaches will prefer this pitch. Once you get to college you will need all three, many HS players can throw a “change of speed” CU, but few can get good two plane movement on them.

I betcha two bits, your new head coach calling pitches has no clue what off-speed pitchrd are working for you throughout every inning worked.

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Originally posted by NW Knights07:

So my question is which pitch is more important to master, and once mastered which is more devastating?

I don't know the answer to your question, but I do have my own opinions. The effectiveness of a solid breaking ball compared to a nice change, depends on your fastball, IMO. I can tell you that the college my son will be attending in the Fall has put a big emphasis on the change up over the years, and they're pretty successful.

Despite the wishcasting I see here, I don't see many good changeups in high school. I see mostly FB and Curve.

Pre-HS, they were good for HR balls.

Here's my take on it- Both the CB and CU are offspeed pitches that if thrown with the same arm action (slot and speed) should look like the fastball initially out of the hand to the batter. But, because the CB has greater movement, it makes it thus more difficult to hit when kept down in the strike zone. Think about it- what would you rather try to hit- an offspeed pitch that moved a little or one that moved sharper with harder bite?

Besides that fact, the CB is controlled the same as the FB with the fingertips exclusively just as the FB. The CU on the other hand is not controlled by the figertips exclusively and as such it is harder to master and control effectively because it is harder to "feel" coming out of the hand. Even in the big leagues there is a reason why you see more CB's than CU's.

Not saying a good CB is always better than a good CU, just saying that it is generally easier to get greater and more consistant results with the CB as it is easier to control and increasingly more difficult as an offspeed pitch to hit squarely when kept down in the zone.

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The effectiveness of a solid breaking ball compared to a nice change, depends on your fastball, IMO.

My FB is generally low to mid 70's, 4 seam has a slight cut to it, and the 2 seam runs in and sinks. Change has similar movement to my 2 seam, and has the exact same arm action. CB has 12-7ish movement with a sharp late break.

Does that help set the two pitches apart?

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Pre-HS, they were good for HR balls.

IMO they also tend to be HR balls in HS...

Knight keep working hard on all of your pitches, mostly on getting your FB velocity up. It is my experience unless you are the type of pitcher who pitches backwards effectively, you need to get up around mid 80's to throw a FB by a HS batter. If you are throwing a mid 70's FB with a mid to upper 60 CU a batter still has enough time to adjust. Once you get up around 83-85 you have the advantage. Of course keep working on your change and really work on getting the second plane movement.

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Originally posted by BOF:

quote:

Pre-HS, they were good for HR balls.

IMO they also tend to be HR balls in HS...

Knight keep working hard on all of your pitches, mostly on getting your FB velocity up. It is my experience unless you are the type of pitcher who pitches backwards effectively, you need to get up around mid 80's to throw a FB by a HS batter. If you are throwing a mid 70's FB with a mid to upper 60 CU a batter still has enough time to adjust. Once you get up around 83-85 you have the advantage. Of course keep working on your change and really work on getting the second plane movement.

Hate to admit it, but that is my experience with my son as well. He generally throws 85-87 sometimes touching 88 or 89 on the fastball. Has an excellent CB and when working, a very good change. The problem is that when the change isn't working (and it works less often than the CB), it tends to be left up and flat and will get hammered. Not just for HS, but summer tournaments as well.

I continue to preach to son to throw in some changeups because I feel it can be a very effective pitch, but he just says "dad, they can't catch up to my fastball, my change up is perfect speed for guys to hit." Hard to argue. In fact, we talk after the games and every time I ask him what he threw on a ball that got hit hard, he says it was his changeup. Now, if you can consistently keep it low and get it to drop off the table, it may be more effective in HS ages, but if you leave it up at 78-79 mph, it can get hammered.

I think the trick is to continue to work it in bullpens and get confident with it. I will never quit encouraging him to work on and throw the CU. I love the pitch and will not give up on it.

If the hitter is fouling off fastballs behind the batter, then it's changeup time. If they are fouling them off in front of the plate, don't throw a changeup.

I am more of a power pitcher in the sense that i throw mainly fastballs and locate it then start using my cu and cb to get the batter thinking when they start looking fastball.

The way i learned how to use my change is to throw a fastball up and in or some chin music then the change on the outside part of the plate to get a ground out. I keep my curve in the closet until the second time through the order maybe third depending on what kind of outing i'm having.

A good changeup is enough to accompany your fastball imho, but i have noticed a lot of coaches have become infatuated with the curve just because kids can't hit it instead of getting a good change which kids wouldn't be able to hit either.
10-12 mph off your fastball for a change will not let a kid bomb it if its low and on the outside corner, that makes it slower through effective speed. it's when it gets left up thats the problem but people are too impatient to work with it, just go streight to the curve.

Satchel paige never threw either, but none of us are satchel paige, are we?

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then the change on the outside part of the plate to get a ground out.

I actually tend to throw the CU down and in to hitter as opposed to down and away. I dont know how common that is, but it produces TONS of strikeouts.

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I actually tend to throw the CU down and in to hitter as opposed to down and away. I dont know how common that is, but it produces TONS of strikeouts.

My highschool coach loved effiency so he loved to do this to kids and have a 2 pitch at bat. either way i love a good CU

Nothing is better than a good old fashion fastball with velocity and movement. I don't think anyone will argue that fact. But IMHO the Change and Curve, if used effectively, are equally as important. There were two very dominant closers that spent the majority of their career in Southern California. Trevor Hoffman had a mid-90's fastball when he came to the Padres from the Marlins. Hoffman had some arm problems, and his velocity suffered. However, he had a devastating changeup that kept MLB hitters off balance and frankly embarrassed them at times. We'll most likely see Hoffman in Cooperstown in the near future. Eric Gagne had a fastball that touched triple digits on occassion (Yes, I know about the PED's), but he recorded just as many strikeouts with his nasty change during his 3-4 year run of dominance. There are many more players that I can bring up. I apologize for using west coast MLB players in my example, but obviously I see them more often.

I pitched in high school and junior college years ago. Most coaches didn't call pitches for us back then, so we had to learn by trial and error. In high school I was able to dominate our league with a mid to upper 80's fastball and decent secondary pitches to garner league MVP, blah-blah-blah. The first time I toed the rubber in a college game, I got lit up! My pitching coach took me aside and said, "son, your FB is straight, it doesn't move and college hitters are going to love you...We need to work on this!" So I did, and learned to throw a two seam FB with more sink. I also learned the circle change, and frankly, that pitch helped me succeed and receive more time on the mound.

I've worked with my son since he was eight years old. I didn't allow him to throw a breaking ball until the end of his 12U season, and even then, it was a knuckle-curve that I taught. There were other kids throwing the curve, but I stuck to my guns and preached the change up to him. I taught him and many of his teammates how to throw a split change (middle & ring finger on top of the ball with the index and pinky splitting). Earlier, BOF spoke of good two plain movement needed for an effective CU, and honestly, he had that when he was 10-12 years old, and dominated that age group. So what happened? He turned 13, started throwing breaking balls, and forgot the importance of a changeup. Yes, most kids can not hit a curveball. Because of this, coaches fall in love with the curve and throw it too often.

As our kids continue to climb the baseball ladder, they're going to realize that good hitter's will recognize the spin on a curve and learn to spit on it. However, if thrown properly, those same hitters have a difficult time laying off a good change. BTW, so I don't get hammered with responses, if I had the choice of a Nolan Ryan breaking ball and a Trevor Hoffman change, I'm going with #30/34...The Express. But that in no way diminishes the overall importance of a good change up. When we went on my son's recruiting trip to his college, his HOF coach sat down and made small talk with our family. Afterwards, he turned to my son and said "I've heard good things about you son. I'm told that you have a good fastball, and a very good breaking ball. How's your changeup? We really stress the importance of that pitch here." I smiled, and said "coach, I've been preaching that to him for the last four years!"

I apologize for rambling in this long post. I just wanted it to be clear that IMHO a good change can take you far...unfortunately it's not considered a glamorous pitch.

"which is more important to master?"

IMO, unless you have exceptional velocity and a nasty off-speed pitch with good movement, the answer, undoubtedly, is "both".
A good HS hitter will hit a guy who just throws hard. A good HS hitter will hit the average 2-pitch HS pitcher all day, regardless of whether the second pitch is curve or change. The key is having the third pitch. It is so much more difficult for a hitter to focus, recognize and adjust when there are three options instead of two. If you can throw three different pitches and locate, you can be very effective in HS against even the best hitters.

Let's ask MLB hitters what they think about Jered Weaver's change.....His numbers, all with a fastball that touches low 90's (on a good day) speak for themselves. Pedro Martinez had a bit of success with the change as well, eh? If it's deceptive and you can command it in any pitch count, I believe it to be the most important pitch, as it also makes the pitcher's fastball that much better. You see more ugly swing and misses on a great change-up then you do on a curve, I think.

I have seen kids miss pretty bad on the CU and the CB both. I have footage of batters missing the ball by as much as 3 feet on both pitches. I love a good CU, it is just quite rare that you see it these days ( a good CU) at the HS level. I see a lot of wanna-be CU's where the arm slows down but not very often do I see a kid throwing a fast arm deceptive CU in HS. When I do see a good CU I also see a polished pitcher. Mastering the arm speed, location of pitch and decpetion is extremely difficult for kids to do. All season long in our entire area, I only saw one kid who had a great CU and threw it often getting excellent results. On the other hand, I probably saw at least a dozen kids with great breaking balls that were just as effective as that one kids CU. The bottom line here is that in my opinion, this is the era of the breaking ball and all good pitchers have one.

As a side, I have seen just as many kids throwing junk pitches like the knuckle ball with not much effect on the batter other than it being just a show me pitch.

GBM,

I won't disagree with you, as it's evident that far more pitcher's throw breaking balls compared to changeups. Simply put, the changeup isn't a Glamorous/Wow pitch. When kids are messing around on the side warming up, they're not trying to throw a nasty changeup. They're throwing sliders, curves, knucklers, spitters...basically everything but a change. I will disagree with one statement that you made, I don't think it's as difficult as you suggest to learn a good changeup. A little more work is involved to find a comfortable grip that you can command with the same arm speed as your FB, but once that's established, it's just like any other pitch that you're attempting to master.

I believe cabbagedad made a good point earlier, he and I are on the same page...both pitches are equally as important. A HS pitcher that has a three pitch mix will likely be more successful than the one with only two. With that said, a young man from my son's league was recently named on the Sophomore All-America Team for MaxPreps. Not too shabby for a kid with a low 80's fastball, and average slurvy breaking ball. What took him over the top you ask? A very good changeup did it. Yes, he's pretty polished for a 16 year old. I believe in the changeup, but I'm a huge fan of any pitch that will get the batter out...that's what it's all about, right?

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
GBM,

I won't disagree with you, as it's evident that far more pitcher's throw breaking balls compared to changeups. Simply put, the changeup isn't a Glamorous/Wow pitch. When kids are messing around on the side warming up, they're not trying to throw a nasty changeup. They're throwing sliders, curves, knucklers, spitters...basically everything but a change. I will disagree with one statement that you made, I don't think it's as difficult as you suggest to learn a good changeup. A little more work is involved to find a comfortable grip that you can command with the same arm speed as your FB, but once that's established, it's just like any other pitch that you're attempting to master.

I believe cabbagedad made a good point earlier, he and I are on the same page...both pitches are equally as important. A HS pitcher that has a three pitch mix will likely be more successful than the one with only two. With that said, a young man from my son's league was recently named on the Sophomore All-America Team for MaxPreps. Not too shabby for a kid with a low 80's fastball, and average slurvy breaking ball. What took him over the top you ask? A very good changeup did it. Yes, he's pretty polished for a 16 year old. I believe in the changeup, but I'm a huge fan of any pitch that will get the batter out...that's what it's all about, right?

Throwing a good polished CU is all about arm speed and getting that location down in the zone. At the HS level and everything leading up to it, it is rare to see that. When you do see it, it comes from an advanced polished pitcher who has spent a lot of time on it. I think pretty much all decent pitchers throw a decent CU, but almost all lack the correct arm speed that makes it truly deceptive. I took a lot of video footage of the best talent in our area and almost everyone of them slow the arm down. Good batters can pick this out and not swing on the pitch. The CU is a pitch that is meant to be swung on.

GBM,

Yes, the changeup is meant to be swung on. In fact, a pitcher with a good changeup will have lower pitch counts due to balls put in play early in the count and therefore tend to log more innings. I also agree that arm speed is important, not just for deception, but the added bite (movement) in the pitch. I can say the same thing with any pitch, if you slow your arm down, you'll lose your effectiveness. That's why I stressed the importance of finding a comfortable grip that you can command with the same armspeed as your fastball. Play catch and alternate with your change grip, continue even as you stretch out your throws to farther distances. This will help your pitcher achieve added confidence with the pitch. If he's able to play catch with a change grip, he'll have an easier time when he gets on the bump. Lastly, I apologize if I come across pompous with my next statement, I don't mean to...but perhaps you're video taping pitchers in the wrong area? We have a few pitchers out here with excellent armspeed that do just fine with their changeup.

bsbl247,

I never really knew what to look for in a good CU until I went to a camp a few years ago and had an instructor explain it. He said to watch the follow through and look for the "effort" as if they were throwing a hard fastball- one like you would throw knowing a gun was on you. From there I have set that standard when watching others pitch. Perhaps my expectations are a little high I guess in what I classify as a great CU and thus why I see the good ones far and few between. I guess I am looking for that Tim Lincecum CU (arm speed and "effort" follow through)as a standard. Perhaps my standards on the pitch are too high?

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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
bsbl247,

I never really knew what to look for in a good CU until I went to a camp a few years ago and had an instructor explain it. He said to watch the follow through and look for the "effort" as if they were throwing a hard fastball- one like you would throw knowing a gun was on you. From there I have set that standard when watching others pitch. Perhaps my expectations are a little high I guess in what I classify as a great CU and thus why I see the good ones far and few between. I guess I am looking for that Tim Lincecum CU (arm speed and "effort" follow through)as a standard. Perhaps my standards on the pitch are too high?

Not at all GBM. We should all have high standards, that's where improvement comes from, IMHO. If it was easy, everyone would be pitching. Take care!

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Originally posted by like2rake:
You see more ugly swing and misses on a great change-up then you do on a curve, I think.

I agree.
Once a player gets to the pro level, you see a seperation in who throws what more often, of course depending on lefties or righties and the pitchers velocity.

The FB is the most important pitch for everyone, all other pitches are considered secondary to it.

A starting pitcher is expected to throw 80%+ FB, of course if you can't locate your FB properly, you will suffer. That is not to say that a pitcher who realize the FB is not working will rely on his other pitches and hope that they are working on that day as well. You do not have to have a polished CU for it to work for you, but you also have to make sure that it comes from the same slot to work for you as well. The easiest pitch to tip is the CU. My son, who always threw a great change has had trouble with tipping (change in slot). CC has a new change up, which is not uncommon for pitchers as they age and lose velocity.

The more frequent use of the CU has changed the game at the pro level, used to be that most pitchers wouldn't throw them, now young pitchers use it with success and not afraid to use it certain times in the count. Slider more common than CB for rhp, IMO at the pro level.

I am not sure I get this about arm speed, if the arm speed is off it's because the person teaching them had no clue how to properly teach it. I tend to agree with the above from bsbl247, really good pitchers I have ever seen in our area don't slow down their arm speed. Perhaps that is because the best youth coaches teach the CU when the pitcher is young so he will not be afraid to use it as he gets older, I think that's the whole idea here, CB are a lot easier to master. That's the reason for their frequency. If you go to gameday on MLB and see the hitters preferences in the box, the CB is the most popular for them for success and mentioned the most.

The reason that you see it less often on the pro level is because of two things, the pitcher wasn't shown the CU until late and reverted back to the easier pitch and called more often by the coach to get players out when younger changes are he couldn't teach it properly either, or the FB is the more predominate pitch (every else is secondary as it should be). That would include the 4 as well as the 2 seam. My son uses the CU only to produce a swing and miss (the reason for the pitch) when he has to off set the timing from a 97 to 10- in speed but he uses it sparingly. It used to be his best pitch but now probably his least called to use. He gets better results from his FB's, which is they way it should be and what they want you to do.

BTW, some pitchers have more movement on their CU than any CB or FB they have ever thrown.

Keep in mind that all pitchers are different, a pitcher will eventually figure out what works best for him.

The most dominant closers in baseball use pretty much two pitches- the fastball and the slider. Craig Kimbrell of the Atlanta Braves probably has the best combination of these in the Big leagues. Not sure but it seems he has the highest strikout per inning pitched for any closer. What is it batters fear with guys like Kimbrell? That oh so nasty breaking ball that fools them.

I agree with the above that some peoples CU's move more than their CB's.

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Originally posted by TPM:
He gets better results from his FB's, which is they way it should be and what they want you to do.

uuhhhhh yep generally is the case when you throw 97...

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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The most dominant closers in baseball use pretty much two pitches- the fastball and the slider. Craig Kimbrell of the Atlanta Braves probably has the best combination of these in the Big leagues. Not sure but it seems he has the highest strikout per inning pitched for any closer. What is it batters fear with guys like Kimbrell? That oh so nasty breaking ball that fools them.

I agree with the above that some peoples CU's move more than their CB's.

I would say his 97-99 FB with movement first and foremost. A nasty slider doesn't hurt either, but to see a 97-99 FB for one inning is pretty devastating.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The most dominant closers in baseball use pretty much two pitches- the fastball and the slider. Craig Kimbrell of the Atlanta Braves probably has the best combination of these in the Big leagues. Not sure but it seems he has the highest strikout per inning pitched for any closer. What is it batters fear with guys like Kimbrell? That oh so nasty breaking ball that fools them.

I agree with the above that some peoples CU's move more than their CB's.

GBM,
I have seen some devastating sliders that bring hitters to their knees, no one likes to be embarrassed. I don't think that most are fooled, they know what's coming, they just can't hit it.

I agree with bballman it's the velocity for one inning that gets the job done. The slider is just the secondary that adds to the devastation, not the other way around.

It's just another example of how the FB is most important.

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Originally posted by BOF:

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
He gets better results from his FB's, which is they way it should be and what they want you to do.

uuhhhhh yep generally is the case when you throw 97...

I know that not everyone throws with that velocity, that is why I mentioned all pitchers are different.

However I know that you will agree that when pitchers are young, the main focus should be on developing the FB first, later on the pitcher settles in to what works best for them.
No pitcher should ever stop working on the FB, they should strive for the highest velocity as well as command.

I know I know. Just pulling your chain a bit.

Actually I just exchanged emails with our mutual friend in the Cardinals organization and was asking him why his numbers were so much better this year, and he said it was his ability to command his FB in and out. If he got behind he still made them hit his pitch and does not give in and throw anything over the middle of the plate.

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Originally posted by bballman:

I would say his 97-99 FB with movement first and foremost. A nasty slider doesn't hurt either, but to see a 97-99 FB for one inning is pretty devastating.

Yeah, it's all pretty devastating. A guy like him only needs those two pitches. I have seen him throw his slider in the low 90's before with tons of sharp movement. That would scare the holy shipyards out of most people!

"holy shipyards"

i think this is worthy of adding to your list cd and woody. sorry for being off topic. anywhoo....

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Originally posted by bigheat27-42:
"holy shipyards"

David Cone: "The key to pitching is throwing strikes that look like balls and balls that look like strikes."

Slotty brought up something in another topic and I don't understand why people don't get it.

The reason (IMO) that you see very few really good change ups is because the kids are taught to depend on curves early on. Keeping the injury issue out of it, teach it early on so by HS the pitcher might feel comfortable (they don't always do) throwing and can rely on it at any count, it will make a huge difference in their game and turn heads.

I'll bet if you ask Lincecum which off speed he relied on when younger it would not be a curve ball.

Tim Lincecum's HS prep days

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On October 25, 2002,

The 5-foot-10, 145-pound right-hander was 4-2 with four saves and a 0.85 earned-run average for the Patriots last season.

Lincecum said he throws a fastball — which has been clocked as high as 94 mph — and three different kinds of curveballs.

Lincecum throws a forkball CU as out pitch to righties and a slider as his out pitch against lefties.
A 1-5 CB, which do you suppose were 3 he threw in HS?
I am not sure if he had that velo out of HS. If he did just goes to show how you need to develop that pitch over others.

On averge, in general, the CB is predominantly the best offspeed pitch in professiopnal baseball and overall is second only to the fastball.

Season averages (from MLB 2008 season)

* Fastballs thrown 60% of time at 90 mph (91 for 4SFB)

* Sliders thrown 15% of time at 83 mph (or 7 mph slower than fastball)

* Changeups thrown 11% of time at 81 mph (or 9 mph slower than fastball)

* Curveballs thrown 11% of time at 76 mph (or 14 mph slower than fastball)

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
On averge, in general, the CB is predominantly the best offspeed pitch in professiopnal baseball and overall is second only to the fastball.

Do you mean best or most frequently used?
I wouldn't know if that is true, where did you get that information? Does that pertain to lefties as well as righties?

If the info that Sultan gave (slider) I would agree.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
On averge, in general, the CB is predominantly the best offspeed pitch in professiopnal baseball and overall is second only to the fastball.

Do you mean best or most frequently used?
I wouldn't know if that is true, where did you get that information? Does that pertain to lefties as well as righties?

If the info that Sultan gave (slider) I would agree.

If we assume that in professional baseball pitchers use their pitch selection as the best being most frequent down to the least then--

Best pitch- Fastball
Next best pitch- Breaking ball
Next after that- Change-up



That said, some peoples Change-ups are beter than their curveballs. It's a mix and match, but generally speaking the second best and also the second most frequently thrown ball in professional baseball is the breaking ball. The change-up while still a dominating pitch, is in the back seat to the breaking ball at this moment in time.