Change vs. Curve

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
That said, some peoples Change-ups are beter than their curveballs. It's a mix and match, but generally speaking the second best and also the second most frequently thrown ball in professional baseball is the breaking ball. The change-up while still a dominating pitch, is in the back seat to the breaking ball at this moment in time.

You said CB originally is the best off speed pitch, now you changed it to breaking ball which could be a cb, slider, cutter and different than an off speed pitch.

So which did you mean is used more often? The curve or the slider or a cutter, or just that a breaking ball is more often used (which I agree to)?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
That said, some peoples Change-ups are beter than their curveballs. It's a mix and match, but generally speaking the second best and also the second most frequently thrown ball in professional baseball is the breaking ball. The change-up while still a dominating pitch, is in the back seat to the breaking ball at this moment in time.

You said CB originally is the best off speed pitch, now you changed it to breaking ball which could be a cb, slider, cutter and different than an off speed pitch.

So which did you mean is used more often? The curve or the slider or a cutter, or just that a breaking ball is more often used (which I agree to)?

In generic terms at the HS level, a curveball can mean any kind of breaking pitch. I used it in that context.

A curveball at any level is a breaking pitch.

You referred the CB as an off speed. You might have been confused.

You said that the CB was the most used often used, did you mean that over and above a slider and if so where is that information listed?

Or do you come to that conclusion from hearing it on TV?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
A curveball at any level is a breaking pitch.

You referred the CB as an off speed. You might have been confused.

You said that the CB was the most used often used, did you mean that over and above a slider and if so where is that information listed?

Or do you come to that conclusion from hearing it on TV?

I am not confused at all. When I said "curveball" earlier I was speaking in the context of "breaking ball". In HS, generally, people call any type of breaking ball at that level the "curveball". I went to a tryout with son at the beginning of summer. At that tryout the three scouts/coaches who were well trained called mys son's breaking ball different things. One said it was a curveball, one said it was a slider, and the other just called it a breaking ball.

As I am sure you are well aware, someone may call someones curveball a slider while another equally as trained calls it a curveball. One thing is for sure though, as I am sure you are well aware- whatever one calls it, it is still classified as both a breaking ball and an offspeed pitch. In truth, a slider can be classified as a "curveball", it just depends on what standards are applied to classify it. Both the slider and curveball are typified as the same type of pitch- a "breaking ball" pitch.

So when I say that the "curveball" is used more than the change-up, I am referring generally to "breaking balls" whether they be a slider, curveball, slurve, bender, hook or whatever name one wants to call it or classify it by some certain standard.


Hope that clarifys things.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
On averge, in general, the CB is predominantly the best offspeed pitch in professiopnal baseball and overall is second only to the fastball.

Help me here, you said that the CB is the best off speed.
Now you changed it to the breaking ball as the second best pitch used in professionalbaseball. But refer back to HS lingo?
IMO there is a visual difference between a slider and a CB, you may just not have seen it yet, on the HS level.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
On averge, in general, the CB is predominantly the best offspeed pitch in professiopnal baseball and overall is second only to the fastball.

Help me here, you said that the CB is the best off speed.
Now you changed it to the breaking ball as the second best pitch used in professionalbaseball. But refer back to HS lingo?
IMO there is a visual difference between a slider and a CB, you may just not have seen it yet, on the HS level.

You just don't get it do you. I said, and perhaps more importantly meant- the "breaking ball" is the best offspeed pitch in professional baseball based off of both frequency and results.

Now if you really want to get into the whole nuts and bolts of slider versus curve we can debate that, but that was never my intention because I used the context of "CB" at the HS level to generally take into account all types of breaking pitches. Somehow you don't get that.

Now, as to the specific differences of a slider versus a curve- It all depends on who you ask. Some define the difference between the two by the break motion. Some define the differences by the speed of the two in relation to their fastball. Some define it as both speed and angle of break in relation to the fastball. Some define the differences as how tight or loose the break is.

The truth of it is that the only real differences are when you have a pitcher who throws a true CB with a long sweeping motion downwards versus another who throws a breaking ball- the "slider" with a motion that tends to be short and moving more to the side in it's quick sharp break due to the more velocity over the Cb pitch.

But, as one can readily see, it is all relative as to what standard you are measuring it by. Some analysts look entirely off of velocity and not the angle of break. We have all heard some of the endless debates by ESPN announcers on if a pitcher is throwing a CB or a slider. Of course it is no debate when you have a pitcher who throws both with one having a more sweeping downward break (CB) while his other has a smaller tighter break and more velocity.

We both know though (or should)that as for the angle of break, be it 12-6 or 2-8, neither one defines the difference between a CB or slider without more added information. This should give us a clue. But, at the same time, the amount of break- be it 4 inches or 12, doesn't define the difference either between the two pitches without other added information.

We could literally go on forever debating on what a slider and CB is or isn't, but it is a mute point. But, I do think you should know that I am not an idiot and I really do know the diffewrence between the two pitches as long as we are speaking in relative terms and conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
On averge, in general, the CB is predominantly the best offspeed pitch in professiopnal baseball and overall is second only to the fastball.

Sorry to say, but that's what you said.

Then you changed it to the next best pitch was the breaking ball. But again, a breaking ball encompases many different type of pitches (and they are different and do differet things).

Then you changed that.

Please, asking again, show us in writing where the CB is the best "off speed" pitch in professional baseball second only to the fastball....not in terms on the HS level.

Just want to get straight where you get your facts and derive your conclusions from.

In other words try to make your information clear or don't make it at all. There is a definite difference between a slider and a CB. The slider is often times called the most effective pitch at the professional level (not talking HS baseball here) because it over powers and deceives. The CU by many may also be considered the best pitch by some.

In guess that, there is a lot that goes into the equation I suppose of figuring out, people spend lots of time collecting data that supports their theories, other than someone here just throwing out what they think is the best answer.

This is older data but seems to me if you want to decide which is the most effective pitch you have to consider balls in play and who the pitch is coming from.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/m...he-games-best-pitch/

Here's something you might find interesting:

http://www.startribune.com/spo...twins/125930578.html

GBM,
If you can find some newer info to support your statment on the CB (besides the guys chatter on ESPN) please post.

tpm,

For what it is worth. I don't want to argue over something we both agree on. I don't want to nit-pick on how I use the english language either. I explained my point about the matter and I am satisfied with that. We both agree that breaking pitches are thrown more frequently in the Big leagues than any other offspeed pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
On averge, in general, the CB is predominantly the best offspeed pitch in professiopnal baseball and overall is second only to the fastball.

Nah, we don't agree, you said the CB is predomimetly the best offspeed pitch in pro ball. I say it's the slider which is not a CB. I also beleive that all pitches are not off speed, but that could be debated.

You also stated that a curve ball can mean any kind of breaking pitch (at the HS level).

You made a mistake, sometimes all you have to do is man up instead of trying to change what you meant to say.

Just sayin.....

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
On averge, in general, the CB is predominantly the best offspeed pitch in professiopnal baseball and overall is second only to the fastball.

Nah, we don't agree, you said the CB is predomimetly the best offspeed pitch in pro ball. I say it's the slider which is not a CB. I also beleive that all pitches are not off speed, but that could be debated.

You also stated that a curve ball can mean any kind of breaking pitch (at the HS level).

You made a mistake, sometimes all you have to do is man up instead of trying to change what you meant to say.

Just sayin.....

TPM,

I am only going to say this one more fricken time. IN HIGH SCHOOL BALL- YOU KNOW, THE BALL BEFORE GOING TO COLLEGE, IN GENERAL A "CURVEBALL" CAN COVER EVERYTHING FROM A TIGHT SLIDER TO A LOOPY CURVEBALL. THIS IS BECAUSE OF TWO FACTORS- PEOPLE (PLAYERS, PARENST AND NOT SO GOOD COACHES) ARE IGNORANT THAT ANY OTHER BREAKING PITCH EXISTS AND SO TO KEEP THINGS UNDERSTANDABLE, THE GENERAL TERM "CURVEBALL" IS USED FOR A PITCHERS BREAKING BALL. THE OTHER FACTOR IS THAT GENERALLY SPEAKING, HS KIDS ARE TAUGHT TO THROW A CURVEBALL FIRST IREGARDLESS IF IT ACTUALLY MORPHS OVER TIME INTO A TRUE SLIDER AND THEY JUST DON'T REALIZE IT. THUS, WHEN DISCUSSING THE GENERAL HS BREAKING BALL, PEOPLE USUALLY ARE REFERRING ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY TO A "CURVEBALL" REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE ACTUAL PITCH IS TECHNICALLY SPEAKING.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
On averge, in general, the CB is predominantly the best offspeed pitch in professiopnal baseball and overall is second only to the fastball.

Don't yell, you were NOT refering to HS, see above quote.

I don't mean to interupt the party you two are having but my opinion from watching major league games over the past few years is that the most effective "out" pitch, not counting FBs, is the change up. How many times have you seen batter after batter swing at CUs in the dirt, or be way out in front with their swings?

Just the opinion of a baseball watching lay person.

Now you two can go back at it.

That's why I keep quoting him, h is original statement was that the best OFFSPEED pitch was the curveball. Then it changed, then it changed again.
And the reference to parents/players/coaches being ignorant. Look in the mirror!

The difference is that you, filsfan, admit that you are a layperson and your statment is probably your opinion.

I did ask for support for that statement, or was that just his opinion?

I never heard in HS that all breaking balls were curveballs (did anyone), there is a distinct difference in a slider, unless the HS player is throwing a slurve, but the original comment was directed to the pro level. In pro ball a slider is a slider and a CB a CB and they don't throw slurves.

Stop being an idiot and admit you goofed. If not, show me where you got you facts to make that statement.

My contention is that if you want to act like an expert, then back up your info with facts, stop trying to change what you posted that was misleading in the first place.

TPM,

How is the weather down there in Florida? It rained here a little yesterday, otherwise nice and sunny.

caling a poster an idiot---very mature

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
TPM,

How is the weather down there in Florida? It rained here a little yesterday, otherwise nice and sunny.

Whenever you can't come up with an answer you turn to the weather.

GBM,
I offer you the challenge once more, provide some information that the CB is the best "off speed" pitch in professional ball, second to the FB.

Then we can chat about the weather.

are you both calling the slider an offspeed pitch?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
TPM,

How is the weather down there in Florida? It rained here a little yesterday, otherwise nice and sunny.

Whenever you can't come up with an answer you turn to the weather.

GBM,
I offer you the challenge once more, provide some information that the CB is the best "off speed" pitch in professional ball, second to the FB.

Then we can chat about the weather.

I already made the statement that when I first mentioned "curveball" I was using it in the context to refer to a breaking pitch such as both the true curveball, the slider, and anything inbetween. I think pretty much everyone but you understood that clarification. I also showed to you that I do know the difference between a slider and a curveball and also showed where there can be some confusion, especially at the HS level on how to individually classify each breaking pitch. So, for the last time to clarify my statement-

The breaking ball is the best offspeed pitch in baseball. That includes both the curveball, slider and any pitch inbetween those two as some may classify. If you would like to be any more techincal perhaps we can hire lawyers to write it up in a 10,000 page document. Perhaps we can then let them go address the issue to congress.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
are you both calling the slider an offspeed pitch?

The "slider" is an offspeed pitch, at least in my neck of the woods.

TPM,

Just curious, as you seem to be the expert here, what is the exact difference between a slider and a curveball. I am also curious to know where a curveball stops being a curveball and becomes a slider.

Personally i already have my own opinions on it but I would like to hear your professional opinion.

To add another piece into the mix, when does a cut fastball become a slider?

I know some of what GBM is talking about in terms of the CB vs. the Slider. My son throws a breaking pitch that has been called many things. His PC used to call it a cut fastball, sometimes PG will call it a slider, sometimes a CB and sometimes both. He basically holds it the same way, although sometimes, it will be later breaking and sometimes more sweeping. He throws from low 3/4, so the pitch does have 2 plane movement. He also throws a CU that will drop off the table when working to the point coaches have asked it was a split finger pitch.

I think the breaking pitches (CB, Slider and even cut fastball) are all variations of the same pitch, it's just a matter of degree. It really depends on the movement that will determine what it will ultimately be called. CB will have the most break and movement, Slider will have less than that and it will occur later and the cut fastball will have the least movement and the latest break.

The problem I see with calling all of these "off-speed" pitches is that you would have to consider a CU as an offspeed pitch and I don't put them in the same category as the others. I would consider breaking balls to be the CB, Slider and maybe cutter (although I'm not real sure on that) and off speed to be the CU and maybe even the split finger (not sure about that either).

Anyway, just my opinion as a lay person who has been watching, listening about and asking about pitching since my 18 year old was 8. I sure don't know everything, that's for sure.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
To add another piece into the mix, when does a cut fastball become a slider?

I know some of what GBM is talking about in terms of the CB vs. the Slider. My son throws a breaking pitch that has been called many things. His PC used to call it a cut fastball, sometimes PG will call it a slider, sometimes a CB and sometimes both. He basically holds it the same way, although sometimes, it will be later breaking and sometimes more sweeping. He throws from low 3/4, so the pitch does have 2 plane movement. He also throws a CU that will drop off the table when working to the point coaches have asked it was a split finger pitch.

I think the breaking pitches (CB, Slider and even cut fastball) are all variations of the same pitch, it's just a matter of degree. It really depends on the movement that will determine what it will ultimately be called. CB will have the most break and movement, Slider will have less than that and it will occur later and the cut fastball will have the least movement and the latest break.

The problem I see with calling all of these "off-speed" pitches is that you would have to consider a CU as an offspeed pitch and I don't put them in the same category as the others. I would consider breaking balls to be the CB, Slider and maybe cutter (although I'm not real sure on that) and off speed to be the CU and maybe even the split finger (not sure about that either).

Anyway, just my opinion as a lay person who has been watching, listening about and asking about pitching since my 18 year old was 8. I sure don't know everything, that's for sure.

Funny you should bring this up but last year someone taught my son how to throw a cutter and he started throwing it only in his bullpens. This year he started throwing it in games. The problem however was that it wasn't really a cutter at all- it had too much movement and in fact was a true tight slider. this is all too funny because earlier at a tryout camp he was told by a scout that his breaking ball (what son normally calls his curveball to most unknowing people) was actually a true slider because of it's velocity and break. So, what we thus had was an obvious problem of sorts because you can't really have two different sliders. What we finally decided was that his cutter is a true slider and his other pitch a hard power curve with short tight break.

This is why I often just refer to a persons curveball or slider as a breaking ball. Ther eis so much variation from pitcher to pitcher with everything inbetween a cutter to a curveball that it gets really hard to define the boundaries between all pitches.

Any pitch other than a Fastball is considered an off speed pitch.

There are as many "definitions" as there are coaches. I'll have to look it up to be sure, but as I recall House refers to Fastballs and Sliders as "power pitches", the implication being that the slider has more in common with the fastball than the curveball. Does that make it gospel? Of course not. It's all a matter of opinion, and semantics.

quote:

Originally posted by standballdad:
Any pitch other than a Fastball is considered an off speed pitch.

quote:

There are as many "definitions" as there are coaches. I'll have to look it up to be sure, but as I recall House refers to Fastballs and Sliders as "power pitches", the implication being that the slider has more in common with the fastball than the curveball. Does that make it gospel? Of course not. It's all a matter of opinion, and semantics.

quote:
Originally posted by standballdad:

Any pitch that is thrown slower than the FB is an off speed pitch by definition.

In baseball what is an offspeed pitch?

Answer:

An off speed pitch is any type of pitch other than a fastball of any kind. In other words, an off speed pitch is any type of pitch that is not thrown with maximum speed. Examples are a curve, a slider, a sinker, a screwball, etc.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/In_b..._pitch#ixzz1U06tclKx

By whose definition? Is that in the Universal Baseball Rulebook somewhere? Is a Get Me Over Fastball an "offspeed pitch?"

When it comes to a good hard slider I think the term "breaking pitch" would be more accurate than "offspeed pitch." But I've seen some slow, loopy "sliders" that are very much "offspeed" pitches. Bottom line is NEITHER term is perfect, which is why everyone can't agree.

Back to what consitutes a slider, according to MY definition a slider has ballistic spin. (i.e. you can see the dot in the center). But my definition doesn't matter. It's just an opinion. Does K-Rod throw a slider? Not in MY opinion. I'd call it more of a hard curve.

But who cares. Nasty pitches are like pornography, I know it when I see it. Doesn't matter what you call it.

quote:

Originally posted by standballdad:

quote:

There are as many "definitions" as there are coaches. I'll have to look it up to be sure, but as I recall House refers to Fastballs and Sliders as "power pitches", the implication being that the slider has more in common with the fastball than the curveball. Does that make it gospel? Of course not. It's all a matter of opinion, and semantics.

quote:
Originally posted by standballdad:

Any pitch that is thrown slower than the FB is an off speed pitch by definition.

If it's on the internet it must be true. :-)

quote:

Originally posted by standballdad:
In baseball what is an offspeed pitch?

Answer:

An off speed pitch is any type of pitch other than a fastball of any kind. In other words, an off speed pitch is any type of pitch that is not thrown with maximum speed. Examples are a curve, a slider, a sinker, a screwball, etc.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/In_b..._pitch#ixzz1U06tclKx

OK. That makes sense. So, you could definetely say that the off speed pitch is the second most effective pitch in baseball then.

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
OK. That makes sense. So, you could definetely say that the off speed pitch is the second most effective pitch in baseball then.

I love it, that is just too good!

I would like to modify my earlier statement to

"The second best pitch in baseball is the offspeed pitch".

It reminds me of a another great statement-

"When you come to the fork in the road, take it" (Yogi)

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
TPM,

Just curious, as you seem to be the expert here, what is the exact difference between a slider and a curveball. I am also curious to know where a curveball stops being a curveball and becomes a slider.

Personally i already have my own opinions on it but I would like to hear your professional opinion.

I am not in the business of baseball. In the professional world of baseball a CB is a CB and a slider is a slider. You can't tell the difference?
The slider breaks down and away and very distinct in difference so therefore are you saying that when someone throws a slider (used more often in professional ball than the true CB), the guy announcing is wrong when he says it's a slider and not a CB? I realize there are different types.

You didn't say the breaking ball was the best off speed pitch in BB after the FB, you said the curve ball was. Yes, we know they are all breaking balls.

You changed what you said (I know your explanations came after you made the wrong statement) and still have not come up with facts to support even a breaking ball is second to the fastball...in professional baseball?

bballman,
You bring up the same point as GBM did, it's very hard to tell in HS exactly what type of breaking ball is being thrown. In high school son threw a slurve, not a curve not a slider. I understand that, however, GBM referred to professional bb, and yess sometimes pitchers throw a ball called unknown because it is their own version.

As far as a cutter, although there is a break, I consider it more of a FB pitch than a breaking pitch, but each to his own.


I do realize that some use the term "off speed" as any pitch that is slower than a FB.

In professional baseball (what GBM referred to in his quote) he stated that the CB is the best off speed pitch in baseball, I simply asked for him to show where he got that information, something that he still is unable to come up with.

Some say the best is the slider, others the CU, so is this an opinion or fact?

That is all I asked from the beginning...

I think the other thing that makes it difficult is arm slot. A traditional CB has a 12-6 break. It is all but impossible to get that kind of break from a 3/4 or low 3/4 delivery. Is every breaking pitch thrown with 2 plane movement a slider, or can you have a pitch with 10-4 movement be a CB and not a slider? I'm not sure, I'm asking.

My 2 cents worth on the two breaking pitches-curve & slider. I'm not going to research the internet to get any fancy definitions, but here goes my simple take as I see it:

CURVE (Bender, Hook, Hammer, Uncle Charlie)- As bballman stated earlier, a traditional curve has a 12/6 break or an 11/5 for a righty and 1/7 lefty. Anything higher/lower on the imaginary clock it becomes a slider or slurve. A good curve has tight forward spin with sharp downward break, "it falls off the table". You sometimes hear the saying "he pulled the string on that one", I was taught to turn the light off or pull the string and bring it back through my belly button or belt buckle area with the same speed as my fastball. I varied the speed on my curve based on my grip, but sustained good arm speed. I taught my son the same way, and it's worked out so far. A curve is generally thrown in the 65 to 80 mph range. I did look this up, the average Major League curve is thrown at 77MPH. Nolan Ryan and Bert Blyleven had the best curveballs that I've seen...a little before my time, but Sandy Koufax had a nasty curve too.

SLIDER- A slider is supposed to look like a fastball coming out of the pitchers hand, and it's generally thrown with more velocity. The rotation (axis) of the ball spins a bit sideways which generates the "slide". If you catch or attempt to hit a pitcher throwing you sliders, you can usually pick up a Dot in the middle of the baseball. A good slider will usually break/tilt at the last second. The break or tilt will vary from pitcher to pitcher. I was taught to simulate opening a door knob. My follow through, arm speed, etc...was the same as my other pitches. I don't know what the average velocity of a slider is in the MLB, but I'm guessing 85-88? There are several guys currently throwing sliders in the low 90's, Chapman from the Reds comes to mind. Some of the MLB pitchers with the best sliders that I've seen...Randy Johnson, Steve Carlton, and from the right side, Dave Stieb.

SLURVE- IMO...is a pitch that can not be identified as a curve or slider, but has a True Break so someone coined the phrase Slurve to give it a name....A sweeping breaking ball, if you will.

I'm definitely not a pitching guru, just a dad that knows a little about pitching, and this is the most simplistic way I can explain the pitches...but hey, I could be wrong?

quote:

Originally posted by bballman:
I think the other thing that makes it difficult is arm slot. A traditional CB has a 12-6 break. It is all but impossible to get that kind of break from a 3/4 or low 3/4 delivery. Is every breaking pitch thrown with 2 plane movement a slider, or can you have a pitch with 10-4 movement be a CB and not a slider? I'm not sure, I'm asking.

Arm slot has a lot to do with the type of pitches you can master. My son can't throw a cutter due to his slot, and relies on a slider as his breaking pitch, never being a great with the curveball, which to throw one with success on the pro level, needs that sharp break he couldn't get. He went to college with a slurve, typical HS breaking ball neither here nor there, and came out with a true slider and curve ball. He has had to overhaul his change up and working on it, his 2 seam sinker is his pitch.

The big difference between the two.... one breaks down and the other breaks down and away (thus the slide), the slider appears more as a FB than a CB does(and faster). It also depends if you are facing lefty vs rightys to what you use (as with the cutter). Assume that a 10-4 if it moves away is a slider it it drops vertical it's a CB. The true curve and hardest to throw is 12-6, why it;s not used as much as the slider. That's my understanding and that is what I see in the difference in pitches, with that box (what ever they call it) they have on games, there is no mistaking, IMO.

There are distinct differences between these two "breaking balls", the higher you go up, the bigger the difference. Just ask a hitter.

The average slider most likely is that velo you mentioned, based upon a 90-92 FB (?), once you get higher a slider can be low 90 (using Chapman 100mph as an example).



That's why I have to chuckle when I hear people say my son throws a 2 seam, 4 seam, CB, slider, CU, cutter, you don't need all of those pitches and not even pros can master that many.


I am not an expert, I just wanted someone to supply where they got the info they provided. BTW, wikipedia does a pretty good job on the explanation.

Something i have always debated is at what point does a curveball be classified as a slider. We all know that pitchers throw breaking balls with a huge variety and with enough out there, it can be thus assumed that every slight variation in arm slot, velocity, break and rotation rpm can be catalogued. This surely is true because we see such a myriad of differences, albeit sometimes very slight, from one pitcher to another. Because of this fact, it must also be true that there are pitchers stuck halfway inbetween that ground of it being either a curveball or a slider and yet not be classified as a "slurve" either.

This is where it gets interesting because there isn't really any true facts or conditions that clearly separate the two pitches when they get to that fuzzy middle ground that so many of today's pitchers are now throwing within. They are both thrown with very similar arm actions and follow through. The placement of the fingers can be identical on the seams from one to the other. Even the wrist angle and motion can be identical from one pitcher to another. In today's standards, not even the motion of break can determine whether it be a curve or a slider. I have seen sliders with 2-8 break and also with 12-6 break. Sometimes, a pitcher from one game to another will have different movement (break) on his slider or curveball due to differences in release point variations, slight differences in finger placement on the seams, etc. I watch the Braves a lot and see this effect with their closer Craig Kimbrell quite often. Some nights his slider has a short tight break with almost a 12-6 break and other nights that same pitch will not be as tight and move with 2-8 break. Because he throws it hard (around 90 mph) no one questions if it is a curveball because curveballs are not thrown that hard generally speaking. But, sometimes it's around 87-89 mph while his fastball is touching a 100 mph. The differential percentage is basically exactly the same as a curveball here. Curveballs are generally thrown about 12-15% slower than a pitchers fastball. So, an 87 mph slider compared with a 99 mph fastball fits in that differential. Suppose that Kimbrell only threw a fastabll that topped out at 90 mph. His slider, if we hold to his same differential, would only be 77-78 mph. Because of the slower speed of the pitch it would have greater movement and would probably be called a "curveball" and not a slider anymore. So, in this case why isn't his 90 mph breaking pitch called a curveball? It's thrown the same, has the same break (albeit it being faster) as a curveball. Why? Because the standards we have placed (imaginary at best) on breaking balls places mph limits on pitches as a way of differentiating or cataloguing pitches.

This is just one example but it just shows that the imaginary line between a curveball and a slider is so vague at times that it must be true that sometimes a curveball is/can be classified as, a slider and vice-versa.

Whereas it is true by old school standards that a true curve had a much lower velocity, a larger downward break, etc. and a slider had higher velocity, tighter break with more sideways movement, now days pitchers are overwhelmingly blurring those lines more and more. Nowdays, you see everything between a true curve and a true slider (if there even is such a thing, eh eh) with no clear line or point to separate the differences bewteen the two.

I do not dispute the above a lot has to do with speed, for one to determine what type of breaking ball the pitcher is throwing. A lot is based upon the velo of the pitcher. Most ML pitchers have distinct differences in pitches, they wouldn't be there if you couldn't differentiate.

That's not my point, I will make it one more time, for the last time, you stated that the CB was the second best off speed pitch in baseball.

You didn't say the breaking ball, you said the CB, and I have been asking for some info to support what you said.

If you don't have it just say so, and stop beating around the bush with long winded explanations to try to change it up.

I don't think you get that, but you have done a very good job of trying to convince me that you didn't make a mistake.

Ok, I am going to give an example with some numbers. I use my son because I am familiar with what his numbers are. I am getting my numbers and descriptions from his Perfect Game profile page.

Here are straight numbers from the tournaments he has played in:

FB:85, CB:71, SL:70, CH:72
FB:84, CB:71
FB:83, SL:70
FB:84, CB:71, SL:74
FB:84, CB:72, CH: 75
FB:87, CB:81, SL:80
FB:87, CB,71, SL:71, CH:76
FB:86, CB:72, SL:71

Finally, here are numbers and a description from his 2 PG showcases he has done:

FB:86, CB:71, CH:78
"feel for 10 to 4 curveball"

FB:86, SL:70, CH:76
"nasty 10-4 slider with very good late life"

OK, at least according to PG, who is supposed to be the premier scouting organization in the country, velocity doesn't matter when it comes to the difference between a slider and a CB. I know that my son can throw this pitch with a more loopy action with tons of movement that appears slower or with a more late breaking with less movement (but still a pretty good bit) that appears to be thrown harder. The numbers don't show that. Looks like both travel at the same speed and sometimes are called a slider and sometimes are called a CB.

Apparently even the experts are unsure and apparently, velocity doesn't really matter in determining what the pitch is called. Maybe it's just movement. You make some good points GBM, but apparently not everyone is on the same page.

Very interesting debate.

bballman,
I appreciate your effort, you are super, I guess that is what seperates websters here, some like to help.
I am not understanding the chart only that if was top readings they got from his outing?
If PG could weigh in as to how they make determinations what each pitch is and why would help.
Interesting thing is they did't call those pitches breaking balls, did they, they were either a slider or a CB. I think (my opinion) the slider is more effective when just a few mph are taken off the FB.

You have to understand that these are readings from a HS pitcher, way different from on the professional level. It is probably called a slider due to movement (?). JMO, your son should be using a CH more often in his outings.
How is his CU?

TPM,

For one last time, I never meant to say that the curveball (in it's strictest sense) was the second best pitch in baseball. Perhaps it was my fault in that first post not to make that understandable. To be clear though i did explain myself many times in correcting my statement to reflect what i really meant. If you find yourself happy with the conclusion go give yourself a pat on the back. Everyone else on this board already realizes that I made it clear from later posts that i was really meaning that the "breaking ball" was the second best pitch in baseball. I also made it clear that by todays standards, the fuzzy line between a curveball and a slider was getting more and more. I also made it clear that at least in HS, many kids "curveballs" could in fact be "sliders". I said it all in that context.

So, for the last time- get over it! We are both on the same **** page here. We both agree that the breaking ball is used more effectively in professional baseball than any other offspeed pitch and is second only to the fastball.