Skip to main content

142 replies

Change vs. Curve

GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bballman:
Ok, I am going to give an example with some numbers. I use my son because I am familiar with what his numbers are. I am getting my numbers and descriptions from his Perfect Game profile page.

Here are straight numbers from the tournaments he has played in:

FB:85, CB:71, SL:70, CH:72
FB:84, CB:71
FB:83, SL:70
FB:84, CB:71, SL:74
FB:84, CB:72, CH: 75
FB:87, CB:81, SL:80
FB:87, CB,71, SL:71, CH:76
FB:86, CB:72, SL:71

Finally, here are numbers and a description from his 2 PG showcases he has done:

FB:86, CB:71, CH:78
"feel for 10 to 4 curveball"

FB:86, SL:70, CH:76
"nasty 10-4 slider with very good late life"

OK, at least according to PG, who is supposed to be the premier scouting organization in the country, velocity doesn't matter when it comes to the difference between a slider and a CB. I know that my son can throw this pitch with a more loopy action with tons of movement that appears slower or with a more late breaking with less movement (but still a pretty good bit) that appears to be thrown harder. The numbers don't show that. Looks like both travel at the same speed and sometimes are called a slider and sometimes are called a CB.

Apparently even the experts are unsure and apparently, velocity doesn't really matter in determining what the pitch is called. Maybe it's just movement. You make some good points GBM, but apparently not everyone is on the same page.

Very interesting debate.


My point exactly- when even the professionals can't decide between the two, it becomes rather apparent that indeed at times, either pitch could be classified as either pitch. This proves that in that middle area- the point where both pitches look alike, even the experts have no clear defining lines between the two.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
You can't make that statement without any one of those scouts weighing in, did they base it on just speed or what they saw?
GBM, you realize that you messed up and changed the wording to the breaking ball, which I agree.

Then you went on about HS breaking ball frequency, of course the CB is used more often, most can't throw proper sliders in HS and most shouldn't be (until later).

What you have posted above is from the HS level, the original statement was about professional ball. A slider, a CU, a CB on that level is much differnt than one in HS.

Again where does it state that a CB (in professional ball) is next frequent pitch to the FB?

I am waiting.............
Last edited by TPM
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
bballman,
I appreciate your effort, you are super, I guess that is what seperates websters here, some like to help.
I am not understanding the chart only that if was top readings they got from his outing?
If PG could weigh in as to how they make determinations what each pitch is and why would help.
Interesting thing is they did't call those pitches breaking balls, did they, they were either a slider or a CB. I think (my opinion) the slider is more effective when just a few mph are taken off the FB.

You have to understand that these are readings from a HS pitcher, way different from on the professional level. It is probably called a slider due to movement (?). JMO, your son should be using a CH more often in his outings. Smile
How is his CU?


TPM, in terms of the CB/SL, from standing behind the radar gun while he pitches, his breaking pitch is always between 70-72 or so. Not a lot of variation in speed. I gave the top velocities for FB. There was variation in that, which I don't always understand either. One tournament, they listed his fastball as 86-87, another 80-87, another 79-86. My feeling is that some of those 79-80 pitches were CU's that they put down as FB's.

I could not agree with you more about using the CU more. Believe me, I preach it all the time. When it is working, it can be devastating. When it's not working, it can get hit hard. His arm slot and arm speed for FB and breaking ball (CB/SL) is the virtually the same. He works them well together. His fastball has a lot of life to it and even though it is not 90mph, batters rarely pull his FB. His response to me is that if he throws his CU, it is putting the pitch right in their bat speed zone. I just think he does not have the confidence in it to throw it as much as he needs to.

I will ask him after games what he threw to a particular batter that hit the ball hard and almost always he says it was a change up (left up). So, I continue to preach - Work on it more in bullpens, Throw it off the plate in 0-2,1-2 counts. I'm working on him TPM.
Last edited by bballman
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Does your son throw just a 4 seam?

You are right about when to use CU, but if he doesn't have confidance in it he won't. It defintely needs practice, why so many people believe that should be the next pitch taught to young pitchers. I think that is how the use of the change up dies eventually and the purpose of this topic change vs curve.

Me personally, I think the CU is the greater secondary pitch for any player, but as stated left up it can get hammered and then you are afraid to use it.

If what you all say is true about the CB and slider appearing or maybe the same, that means he is really only relying on only two pitches (bb and Fb) he will eventually need another secondary pitch to compliment his FB for the better D1 schools, no matter how hard he throws.
What does he use for his outpitch?

I know that you are working on it. Wink
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Most pitchers have to have a good fastball. Most pitchers will have a secondary pitch that they use for either an out pitch or a strikeout pitch. Very few have three plus pitches they can command. Most three/four pitch guys will have a third/fourth pitch that is used for show purposes. Those with three or more real quality pitches tend to be all star types.

The best secondary pitch differs from one pitcher to the next. For some it is the change, for others the curveball, others the slider.

Without knowing the exact circumstances surrounding “bballman’s” son, our scouts are taught to determine pitch types in several different ways. Number one is to find out what the pitcher throws. Then watch the spin and break/shape and lastly velocity. Based on velocity, typically true sliders are approximately 8 mph or so less than the fastball. True curveballs are usually a slower speed. However, some pitchers throw true curveballs at slider type speeds. Some pitchers throw sliders at curveball type speed. Obviously velocity is important for a good slider. Changeup is normally about 12 mph slower than fastball.

None of this is really means a lot because every pitcher is different. We have seen knockout 74 mph curveballs and terrible 74 mph curveballs. We have seen outstanding 90 mph fastballs and not so good 90 mph fastballs. What we don’t see a whole lot of is pitchers with three or more true quality pitches. We see lots of pitchers with two real good pitches. The pitch type doesn’t matter, the very best of every pitch type will dominate. However, For most everyone the good 4-seam or especially 2-seam fastball is a must. Velocity is very important, but movement and command is even more important IMO.

Bballman,

I’m guessing that if I were to watch your pitcher without any prior knowledge, I would call most all of those pitches a curveball, possible slurve. Other than the time he was FB:87, BB:80-81, Guessing I would have called all of those sliders.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:

Without knowing the exact circumstances surrounding “bballman’s” son, our scouts are taught to determine pitch types in several different ways. Number one is to find out what the pitcher throws. Then watch the spin and break/shape and lastly velocity. Based on velocity, typically true sliders are approximately 8 mph or so less than the fastball. True curveballs are usually a slower speed. However, some pitchers throw true curveballs at slider type speeds. Some pitchers throw sliders at curveball type speed. Obviously velocity is important for a good slider .


I am curious here. Even though you haven't seen my son (incoming sophmore) pitch. How would you judge this scenerio (actual speeds from recent tryout camp)

Fastball: 80mph
Breaking ball: 73-74mph
Changeup: 70-72mph

Do you suppose your first reaction would be to call son's breaking ball a "slider" or a "curveball" without any other information?
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

This is where it gets interesting because there isn't really any true facts or conditions that clearly separate the two pitches when they get to that fuzzy middle ground that so many of today's pitchers are now throwing within. They are both thrown with very similar arm actions and follow through. The placement of the fingers can be identical on the seams from one to the other. Even the wrist angle and motion can be identical from one pitcher to another. In today's standards, not even the motion of break can determine whether it be a curve or a slider. I have seen sliders with 2-8 break and also with 12-6 break. Sometimes, a pitcher from one game to another will have different movement (break) on his slider or curveball due to differences in release point variations, slight differences in finger placement on the seams, etc. I watch the Braves a lot and see this effect with their closer Craig Kimbrell quite often. Some nights his slider has a short tight break with almost a 12-6 break and other nights that same pitch will not be as tight and move with 2-8 break. Because he throws it hard (around 90 mph) no one questions if it is a curveball because curveballs are not thrown that hard generally speaking. But, sometimes it's around 87-89 mph while his fastball is touching a 100 mph. The differential percentage is basically exactly the same as a curveball here. Curveballs are generally thrown about 12-15% slower than a pitchers fastball. So, an 87 mph slider compared with a 99 mph fastball fits in that differential. Suppose that Kimbrell only threw a fastabll that topped out at 90 mph. His slider, if we hold to his same differential, would only be 77-78 mph. Because of the slower speed of the pitch it would have greater movement and would probably be called a "curveball" and not a slider anymore. So, in this case why isn't his 90 mph breaking pitch called a curveball? It's thrown the same, has the same break (albeit it being faster) as a curveball. Why? Because the standards we have placed (imaginary at best) on breaking balls places mph limits on pitches as a way of differentiating or cataloguing pitches.


GBM,

I've personally never seen a 12-6 Slider? If it's 12-6, it's a curve...IMHO. I don't see Craig Kimbrell as often as you, but I'll admit he's fun to watch. I'll tell you one thing, if Kimbrell has been throwing a breaking ball with a 2-8 break, then it sounds like he now has a Nasty Screwball in his repertoire! Big Grin I'm just playing with you, I know that you and the majority of us on this site are interested in helping kids get to the next level. Curve, Slider, Slurve, Breaking Ball...it's all good.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
You can't make that statement without any one of those scouts weighing in, did they base it on just speed or what they saw?
GBM, you realize that you messed up and changed the wording to the breaking ball, which I agree.

Then you went on about HS breaking ball frequency, of course the CB is used more often, most can't throw proper sliders in HS and most shouldn't be (until later).

What you have posted above is from the HS level, the original statement was about professional ball. A slider, a CU, a CB on that level is much differnt than one in HS.

Again where does it state that a CB (in professional ball) is next frequent pitch to the FB?

I am waiting.............


First, I disagree that you don't see the same type of breaking balls in HS that you see in professional ball. They are pretty much exactly the same except for perhaps the velocity (lack of strength and skeletal maturity)being down. Other than that, you see the same breaking motion, deception etc.

I frequently go and watch the local professional baseball team play and I don't see any difference in their breaking balls from the ones I see in HS except for the fact they are throwing a wee bit harder on average.

I don't know how bad you can beat something intot he ground but FOR THE LAST TIME-

I MEANT "BREAKING BALL" WHEN I FIRST MENTIONED THE WORD "CURVEBALL" IN ONE OF MY FIRST POSTS. GET OVER IT- WE BOTH MEAN THE SAME DANG THING!!!
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
I frequently go and watch the local professional baseball team play and I don't see any difference in their breaking balls from the ones I see in HS except for the fact they are throwing a wee bit harder on average.


Ah, geez GBM, you cannot be serious. C'mon, you just cannot be serious.
The difference in breaking balls between HS and college is dramatic, and not just in speed/velocity. Any good college pitcher will tell you how much better his breaking ball gets and his ability to pitch gets almost from game to game, and certainly from the 1st day of Fall ball that Freshman year until "play ball" is the call in February.
Taken a different way, if you are throwing a HS breaking ball in college, you won't last and won't make it on a college diamond.
In Milb, the steps from low A to high A to AA are really a reflection of the ability of the pitcher to command any pitch in any count and any situation, and get guys out. Pitchers who get hitters out in low A often times cannot get them out at the next level because the breaking balls are still low A and hitters are so much better at each level.
To suggest that breaking balls from HS pitchers in Idaho are no different than those in the Pioneer league, except thrown a "wee bit harder" lacks credibility, unless you are watching 17-18 year olds from the Latin countries who are still learning to pitch in Milb and are still learning the breaking ball.
I would propose to you that if you put your Idaho HS breaking ball pitcher on a college baseball diamond against quality college hitters, the results will tell you the difference that apparently are not being seen.
Last edited by infielddad
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bsbl247:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

This is where it gets interesting because there isn't really any true facts or conditions that clearly separate the two pitches when they get to that fuzzy middle ground that so many of today's pitchers are now throwing within. They are both thrown with very similar arm actions and follow through. The placement of the fingers can be identical on the seams from one to the other. Even the wrist angle and motion can be identical from one pitcher to another. In today's standards, not even the motion of break can determine whether it be a curve or a slider. I have seen sliders with 2-8 break and also with 12-6 break. Sometimes, a pitcher from one game to another will have different movement (break) on his slider or curveball due to differences in release point variations, slight differences in finger placement on the seams, etc. I watch the Braves a lot and see this effect with their closer Craig Kimbrell quite often. Some nights his slider has a short tight break with almost a 12-6 break and other nights that same pitch will not be as tight and move with 2-8 break. Because he throws it hard (around 90 mph) no one questions if it is a curveball because curveballs are not thrown that hard generally speaking. But, sometimes it's around 87-89 mph while his fastball is touching a 100 mph. The differential percentage is basically exactly the same as a curveball here. Curveballs are generally thrown about 12-15% slower than a pitchers fastball. So, an 87 mph slider compared with a 99 mph fastball fits in that differential. Suppose that Kimbrell only threw a fastabll that topped out at 90 mph. His slider, if we hold to his same differential, would only be 77-78 mph. Because of the slower speed of the pitch it would have greater movement and would probably be called a "curveball" and not a slider anymore. So, in this case why isn't his 90 mph breaking pitch called a curveball? It's thrown the same, has the same break (albeit it being faster) as a curveball. Why? Because the standards we have placed (imaginary at best) on breaking balls places mph limits on pitches as a way of differentiating or cataloguing pitches.


GBM,

I've personally never seen a 12-6 Slider? If it's 12-6, it's a curve...IMHO. I don't see Craig Kimbrell as often as you, but I'll admit he's fun to watch. I'll tell you one thing, if Kimbrell has been throwing a breaking ball with a 2-8 break, then it sounds like he now has a Nasty Screwball in his repertoire! Big Grin I'm just playing with you, I know that you and the majority of us on this site are interested in helping kids get to the next level. Curve, Slider, Slurve, Breaking Ball...it's all good.


Here is a video of Kimbrel's slider. In this game his slider was almost breaking straight down (12-6).

Kimbrel's slider

This slider was thrown at 89mph. I can just about bet that if he didn't throw as hard as he does, that same pitch, being slower would be called a "curveball".
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by infielddad:
quote:
I frequently go and watch the local professional baseball team play and I don't see any difference in their breaking balls from the ones I see in HS except for the fact they are throwing a wee bit harder on average.


Ah, geez GBM, you cannot be serious. C'mon, you just cannot be serious.
The difference in breaking balls between HS and college is dramatic, and not just in speed/velocity. Any good college pitcher will tell you how much better his breaking ball gets and his ability to pitch gets almost from game to game, and certainly from the 1st day of Fall ball that Freshman year until "play ball" is the call in February.
Taken a different way, if you are throwing a HS breaking ball in college, you won't last and won't make it on a college diamond.
In Milb, the steps from low A to high A to AA are really a reflection of the ability of the pitcher to command any pitch in any count and any situation, and get guys out. Pitchers who get hitters out in low A often times cannot get them out at the next level because the breaking balls are still low A and hitters are so much better at each level.
To suggest that breaking balls from HS pitchers in Idaho are no different than those in the Pioneer league, except thrown a "wee bit harder" lacks credibility, unless you are watching 17-18 year olds from the Latin countries who are still learning to pitch in Milb and are still learning the breaking ball.
I would propose to you that if you put your Idaho HS breaking ball pitcher on a college baseball diamond against quality college hitters, the results will tell you the difference that apparently are not being seen.


Perhaps you didn't notice that I said the "velocity" wa shigher in pro ball. A higher velocity on the same breaking ball is better. That is why a pro ball breaking ball is good- it has better velocity. Other than that fact, there is not much difference in "how" it is thrown. That is what I meant.

Let me ask you this- what is the difference between a HS fastball and a professional league fastball? Perhaps nothing except for "velocity" on average. Thus, the BB is no different. They may have better command of it the higher you go up, but generally, it is thrown exactly the same.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
First, I disagree that you don't see the same type of breaking balls in HS that you see in professional ball. They are pretty much exactly the same except for perhaps the velocity (lack of strength and skeletal maturity)being down. Other than that, you see the same breaking motion, deception etc.


Your comment..." they are pretty much exactly the same....you see the same breaking motion, deception, etc" in HS pitchers and professional ball.
.
No, you don't!
In college and Milb, hitters see better, sharper, tighter spin and later breaking motion, better deception, better command, as well as breaking balls thrown in any count and any situation.
HS pitchers cannot get out college and Milb hitters with the "same breaking motion, deception, etc" you apparently see in a HS breaking ball in Idaho.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
GBM,

Thanks for the video...like I said, Kimbrell is fun to watch. That's Not a 12-6 slider! Watch McCann (Braves catcher) drop to his knees and shift outside. I will admit, it's nasty. You didn't address the 2-8 either, you realize that's a lefty's breaking ball, right?

I have to agree with infielddad, there's a HUGE difference between an average Idaho HS pitcher (any HS pitcher for that matter) and a D1 college pitcher. And the differences continue to mount as they climb the ladder in the Minor Leagues on up to MLB. You're trying to suggest that the biggest difference is velocity and command? I agree, those are big factors, but I'd also bring into play the sharpness and depth of the pitches. You listed your son's breaking ball at 73-74? Jamie Moyer's breaking ball has been clocked in the low 70's as well. I'm using Moyer as an example because he's a soft thrower that barely breaks 80 with his FB. In your opinion, does your son or any other kid that throws his breaking ball in the low 70's match up with Moyer? Some kids do...but the majority do not.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bsbl247:
GBM,

Thanks for the video...like I said, Kimbrell is fun to watch. That's Not a 12-6 slider! Watch McCann (Braves catcher) drop to his knees and shift outside. I will admit, it's nasty. You didn't address the 2-8 either, you realize that's a lefty's breaking ball, right?

I have to agree with infielddad, there's a HUGE difference between an average Idaho HS pitcher (any HS pitcher for that matter) and a D1 college pitcher. And the differences continue to mount as they climb the ladder in the Minor Leagues on up to MLB. You're trying to suggest that the biggest difference is velocity and command? I agree, those are big factors, but I'd also bring into play the sharpness and depth of the pitches. You listed your son's breaking ball at 73-74? Jamie Moyer's breaking ball has been clocked in the low 70's as well. I'm using Moyer as an example because he's a soft thrower that barely breaks 80 with his FB. In your opinion, does your son or any other kid that throws his breaking ball in the low 70's match up with Moyer? Some kids do...but the majority do not.


I tend to get things backwards. "2-8" is how I describe it from the pitchers POV.

Perhaps I am just biased but like in my son's case, his BB is top-notch at the HS level. It is definately his strike-out pitch. He probably has one of the best breaking balls in HS ball in our portion of the state (about 20 high schools) and definately the best I saw all year for his specific age. The last camp he went to, the guy in charge was really impressed with the quality and level of his breaking ball. He was more impressed with that than his above average velocity on his FB for his age, That is saying something.

But anyways, I see quality BB's from quite a few varsity pitchers this year. Some of those are going to big colleges and others going to small colleges to play. One even got drafted this year but chose instead to go to college. The biggest difference I have seen has been the velocity from one age group to the next. Velocity plays the most important factor in a breaking ball. Most HS kids don't have the strength to throw a mid to upper 70's breaking ball let alone 80! but the same motion is there, they just need to get stronger.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Here is a recent video of my son's slider. It was hung a little but you can see the break on it. It was strike three looking for this kid.

GBM son slider pitch


I knew he was going to get junior in there somehow.

So you are telling me that's a slider, how about a frame by frame, did I missed down and away? Definetly no difference between him and a MLB pitcher? Roll Eyes

infielddad, I think he IS serious.
Last edited by TPM
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Long hot summer.

GBM, do you realize that the league is rookie class? These are beginners at the bottom of the rung? That doesn't even fall into A ball?

I find that insulting, you mean to tell me that my pitcher has been in pro ball for 4-5 years throwing a slider and you are implying it's the same as a high schoolers?
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
Long hot summer.

GBM, do you realize that the league is rookie class? These are beginners at the bottom of the rung? That doesn't even fall into A ball?

I find that insulting, you mean to tell me that my pitcher has been in pro ball for 4-5 years throwing a slider and you are implying it's the same as a high schoolers?


Oh, I'm sorry, everyone under your sons level certainly must be ****** throwing a slider or curveball.

Does that make you feel better? Smile
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Here is a recent video of my son's slider. It was hung a little but you can see the break on it. It was strike three looking for this kid.

GBM son slider pitch


I knew he was going to get junior in there somehow.

So you are telling me that's a slider, how about a frame by frame, did I missed down and away? Definetly no difference between him and a MLB pitcher? Roll Eyes

infielddad, I think he IS serious.


Are you suggesting it isn't a slider?
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
I can't tell. Frown

Sorry, maybe someone else can. I do see the break, that means it's a breaking ball, if you insist that it's a slider....you did say in HS some call it a CB and some a slider and can't tell the difference, and depends upon the standards applied velocity (not recorded in your video)..just sayin...
Last edited by TPM
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
A 12/6 breaking ball is not a slider. Frown


Did you even look at the video I posted on Kimbrel's slider? It has almost a 12-6 break- it's certainly not far off.


How can a 12/6 breaking ball be a slider?

I may have not made myself clear, there is a very big difference between how professional pitchers throw for their pitches and HS pitchers. You are watching very young and very inexperienced players at the lowest level at the pro level. It wasn't a knock, just making a point.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:

How can a 12/6 breaking ball be a slider?

I may have not made myself clear, there is a very big difference between how professional pitchers throw for their pitches and HS pitchers. You are watching very young and very inexperienced players at the lowest level at the pro level. It wasn't a knock, just making a point.


I agree that a breaking ball with 12-6 break shouldn't be classified as a slider. It's rather interesting that Kimbrel himself actually thinks his breaking ball is a curveball, in the which I mostly agree. But pretty much everyone besides Kimbrel himself insists it's more of a slider. Here is what "Baseball America" had to say on the matter before he came the big star he is today-


Kimbrel has the stuff and mentality to be a big league closer. He aggressively challenges hitters with his plus-plus fastball, which sits at 93-95 mph, touches 98 and has nasty life. He also throws an above-average breaking ball that he calls a curveball but looks more like a slider. He flashes a deceptive change-up, though he rarely used it in 2009."



There are times in a game where it is breaking straight down like a power curve and they call it a slider, heck, everyone calls it a slider.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
I can't tell. Frown

Sorry, maybe someone else can. I do see the break, that means it's a breaking ball, if you insist that it's a slider....you did say in HS some call it a CB and some a slider and can't tell the difference, and depends upon the standards applied velocity (not recorded in your video)..just sayin...


This pitch in the video is his first version of his slider, it's what most scouts and college coaches have called the "slider" at camps we have been to. Some think it is a curveball, and some just call it a breaking ball. Sunce that outing he further developed his "cutter", as son calls it, which I believe is actually more of a true slider. On any account, son's breaking balls move a lot to the side with hard break rather than than downwards break.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by past time:
Many HS pitchers throw a useful slider. There are not many who throw a useful curveball or change-up. I've seen kids at the highest level of summer ball throw change ups at 70-80% of the arm action of their fast ball.


That's because they were throwing (when younger) an easy to hit breaking ball to get players out and now they are being hit and they are too lazy to work on a good change up, or a harder more effective curve ball.
JMO.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
Truth of the matter is that in HS, most of the decent pitchers do have harder more effective breaking balls that they work hard on to try to perfect. Otherwise, they wouldn't be decent. One thing I have noticed at the HS level is that if you don't have a decent offspeed pitch, you fade into the sunset and they find someone else who can pitch. For most, that offspeed pitch will more than likely be the breaking ball.
bballmanbballman10,000+ posts
OK, since I brought up my son's velocity numbers on his pitches from perfect game earlier and there is some debate about the difference between when to call a breaking ball a CB or slider, here is a clip of my son I finally managed to pull together. First pitch is a FB full speed, then slo mo. Second pitch is a BB full speed, then slo mo.

Fast forward thru the FB if you want. I know the video is off center, but I couldn't help that. Let me know what you would call the second pitch. Is it a slider or CB? Probably easier to see if you watch in full screen.

Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...eature=youtube_gdata
Last edited by bballman
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bballman:
OK, since I brought up my son's velocity numbers on his pitches from perfect game earlier and there is some debate about the difference between when to call a breaking ball a CB or slider, here is a clip of my son I finally managed to pull together. First pitch is a FB full speed, then slo mo. Second pitch is a BB full speed, then slo mo.

Fast forward thru the FB if you want. I know the video is off center, but I couldn't help that. Let me know what you would call the second pitch. Is it a slider or CB? Probably easier to see if you watch in full screen.

Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...eature=youtube_gdata


Just from the angle of the camera it looks to me as if it is a slider.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bballman:
OK, since I brought up my son's velocity numbers on his pitches from perfect game earlier and there is some debate about the difference between when to call a breaking ball a CB or slider, here is a clip of my son I finally managed to pull together. First pitch is a FB full speed, then slo mo. Second pitch is a BB full speed, then slo mo.

Fast forward thru the FB if you want. I know the video is off center, but I couldn't help that. Let me know what you would call the second pitch. Is it a slider or CB? Probably easier to see if you watch in full screen.

Thanks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...eature=youtube_gdata


I would lean towards a slider on that pitch bballman, however, I guess we can call it a slurve? Nice bite, your son looks good. I hope he enjoys his senior year of HS.

All the trees in the background reminds me of the trip we made to Georgia last year for the WWBA 17U. I was amazed at some of the scenery in and around the East Cobb area schools.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
GBM,

I'm not going to argue with you. I leaned towards the slider for bballman's son, no big deal. You're absolutely correct, there are a number of pitchers that have had their breaking ball "coined" a slurve due to the fact that it's hard to make a determination between the two pitches. Maybe they don't call those "inbetween pitches" slurves in your area of Idaho...but the term is widely used here and other areas in baseball...that's a fact! Wink
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
They use that term here too, come to think of it maybe more of a slurvy ball. My son threw one going into college, as per Kevin O'Sullivan (his description).

Definetly are those that think there is not a distinction, but there is.

I recently sent this to GBM, pretty interesting stuff, he hasn't responded but according to pitchf/x, Kimbrel throws 2 pitches, a 4 seam FB and a slider.

http://pitchfx.texasleaguers.com/pitcher/518886/

Now someone tell me, why wouldn't they just call it a breaking ball, why is there a distinction?
Last edited by TPM
J HJ H5,000+ posts
I just got back from vacation and read this thread all the way through for the first time. I must say...some impressive conversation here.

I don't want to get too involved on the thread but I will add one thing...if I threw the same offspeed pitches (I throw a circle changeup and a curveball...and I don't believe anyone in their right mind would argue that it is anything else but a true curveball) in high school as I do currently in college, I wouldn't last very long on the mound.
GM Gingerbread Man500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TPM:
They use that term here too, come to think of it maybe more of a slurvy ball. My son threw one going into college, as per Kevin O'Sullivan (his description).

Definetly are those that think there is not a distinction, but there is.

I recently sent this to GBM, pretty interesting stuff, he hasn't responded but according to pitchf/x, Kimbrel throws 2 pitches, a 4 seam FB and a slider.

http://pitchfx.texasleaguers.com/pitcher/518886/

Now someone tell me, why wouldn't they just call it a breaking ball, why is there a distinction?


Did you ever watch the video I posted of Kimbrel throwing a particular slider? It has more downward bite than it does sideways bite (very little at all on this particular pitch). In that particular video he is throwing a "power curve" and not really a slider. Everyone has their own definitions, but I did mention that even Kimbrel at one time said his breaking ball was a "curve" and not a "slider". There are games in the which his breaking ball is a true slider and other times when it is more of a curveball.
PreviousNext

Add Reply

Post
High Level Throwing

Driveline Baseball

Membership Required

We're sorry. You must be signed in to continue. Sign In or Register
×
Are you sure you want to remove from your Block List?
×
Loading...
×
When you block a person, they can no longer invite you to a private message or post to your profile wall. Replies and comments they make will be collapsed/hidden by default. Finally, you'll never receive email notifications about content they create or likes they designate for your content.
Note: if you proceed, you will no longer be following .
×
Advanced Search
Advanced Search
Link copied to your clipboard.
×