Change vs. Curve

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
GBM,

I'm not going to argue with you. I leaned towards the slider for bballman's son, no big deal. You're absolutely correct, there are a number of pitchers that have had their breaking ball "coined" a slurve due to the fact that it's hard to make a determination between the two pitches. Maybe they don't call those "inbetween pitches" slurves in your area of Idaho...but the term is widely used here and other areas in baseball...that's a fact!

I wonder....how many guys in the big leagues throw "slurves"? Now certainly there must be a plethora of "inbetweeners" at even the big stage?

I know that some may call those inbetween pitches "slurves" but yet people in general still refer to a breaking ball as either a curve or a slider or even a cutter.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
GBM,

I'm not going to argue with you. I leaned towards the slider for bballman's son, no big deal. You're absolutely correct, there are a number of pitchers that have had their breaking ball "coined" a slurve due to the fact that it's hard to make a determination between the two pitches. Maybe they don't call those "inbetween pitches" slurves in your area of Idaho...but the term is widely used here and other areas in baseball...that's a fact!

I wonder....how many guys in the big leagues throw "slurves"? Now certainly there must be a plethora of "inbetweeners" at even the big stage?

I know that some may call those inbetween pitches "slurves" but yet people in general still refer to a breaking ball as either a curve or a slider or even a cutter.

Here's your answer below per Wikipedia...and I'm sure I can find more info for you. BTW, I consider a cutter to be in the Fastball Family, a perfect example is the Cut Fastball that Rivera throws up to 93 MPH (96 in his prime) for the Yanks. That's JMO, I pitched in HS and JC in the 80's. I've been the sole pitching coach for my son who will be attending a pretty decent college beginning this fall. I realize that there are some members on this site that have forgotten more about baseball than I currently know, but I have a feeling that you're not one of them. I apologize if I appear to be harsh in this post, I honestly try my best to keep my reactions civil on this site...I just get annoyed when someone constantly thinks he has the answers to Everything Pitching. Again this is from Wikipedia...from Cy Young to Stephen Strasburg:

History
The first pitcher to utilize the slurve pitch is unknown. Johnny Sain of the Boston Braves was known to throw a slurve in the 1940s.[2] On May 6, 1998 Kerry Wood of the Chicago Cubs utilized the slurve in a major-league record tying twenty strikeout game.[3] Former Los Angeles Dodgers, Yakult Swallows and current Seibu Lions pitcher Kazuhisa Ishii, despite his well-documented control problems, uses a slurve almost exclusively against left-handers. Alfredo Aceves from the Boston Red Sox was also identified to throw a slurve pitch. Popular rookie of 2010 Stephen Strasburg claims to throw a slurve although experts still call the pitch curveball. Hall of Fame relief pitcher Goose Gossage stated that learning how to throw a slurve changed his career in his Yankeeography. Both Cy Young and Walter Johnson had slurves in their arsenals and Cy Young is the earliest known user of the pitch, having started his career in 1890.

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
GBM,

I'm not going to argue with you. I leaned towards the slider for bballman's son, no big deal. You're absolutely correct, there are a number of pitchers that have had their breaking ball "coined" a slurve due to the fact that it's hard to make a determination between the two pitches. Maybe they don't call those "inbetween pitches" slurves in your area of Idaho...but the term is widely used here and other areas in baseball...that's a fact!

I wonder....how many guys in the big leagues throw "slurves"? Now certainly there must be a plethora of "inbetweeners" at even the big stage?

I know that some may call those inbetween pitches "slurves" but yet people in general still refer to a breaking ball as either a curve or a slider or even a cutter.

Here's your answer below per Wikipedia...and I'm sure I can find more info for you. BTW, I consider a cutter to be in the Fastball Family, a perfect example is the Cut Fastball that Rivera throws up to 93 MPH (96 in his prime) for the Yanks. That's JMO, I pitched in HS and JC in the 80's. I've been the sole pitching coach for my son who will be attending a pretty decent college beginning this fall. I realize that there are some members on this site that have forgotten more about baseball than I currently know, but I have a feeling that you're not one of them. I apologize if I appear to be harsh in this post, I honestly try my best to keep my reactions civil on this site...I just get annoyed when someone constantly thinks he has the answers to Everything Pitching. Again this is from Wikipedia...from Cy Young to Stephen Strasburg:

History
The first pitcher to utilize the slurve pitch is unknown. Johnny Sain of the Boston Braves was known to throw a slurve in the 1940s.[2] On May 6, 1998 Kerry Wood of the Chicago Cubs utilized the slurve in a major-league record tying twenty strikeout game.[3] Former Los Angeles Dodgers, Yakult Swallows and current Seibu Lions pitcher Kazuhisa Ishii, despite his well-documented control problems, uses a slurve almost exclusively against left-handers. Alfredo Aceves from the Boston Red Sox was also identified to throw a slurve pitch. Popular rookie of 2010 Stephen Strasburg claims to throw a slurve although experts still call the pitch curveball. Hall of Fame relief pitcher Goose Gossage stated that learning how to throw a slurve changed his career in his Yankeeography. Both Cy Young and Walter Johnson had slurves in their arsenals and Cy Young is the earliest known user of the pitch, having started his career in 1890.

I certainly don't claim to be an expert in pitching and I know that there is tons I don't know about. However, the term "slurve" is not generally used in evaluating breaking balls. There are a few however that do tend to use it to describe the breaking motion of a curveball or slider, and, also a few who use the term to describe an actual pitch. That is all fine by me, but generally speaking, the term "slurve" is in large part absent from mainstream baseball in describing the variations of breaking balls. You just don't turn on the TV and hear announcers calling pitches "slurves". Sure, there may be a few (and I have heard them), but generally speaking, you can watch a full episode of baseball tonight on ESPN and hear about pitchers throwing both curveballs and sliders and usually never once hear mention of the term "slurve".

I'm not sure what the consensus is here as I didn't read all 7 pages, but to me the answer is clear.

If I could have a plus curve/slider/slurve/whatever you want to call your "breaking ball" or a plus change, I pick the change for absolute certain.

A well thrown change-up has the similar advantage to the curve in that it is slower. Some hitters may read them similarly as fastball out of the hand and be fooled.

However, as a hitter myself in HS and college summer league, ID'ing curveball is typically not difficult because the spin is distinctly different. Better hitters than I should really be able to see this spin, even on the best curveballs.

The hitter can see the spin on a good changeup and should still not know what pitch is coming. Or, preferably perhaps, the batter should believe a fastball is coming because it should spin basically the same way. The well thrown changeup is also thrown at a speed that is not "too slow," meaning that the batter should not realize until too late that the ball is moving more slowly. I've seen a chart that shows for Tim Lincecum, batters don't have a chance when his CU is 9 mph off of his fastball. Hitters are all over him when it is 12-13 mph off -- it's just too slow, they can adjust.

As far as movement, I believe the best changeups move. However, I also believe the best fastballs move. The changeup should look as much like the fastball as possible. While one should expect and hope for a bit more movement on the changeup, a straight fastball and a big break on the changeup will give up some deceptiveness. Look to Mark Buehrle who succeeds with his changeup. Fastball is slow and straight, changeup is about 8 off of it and also straight. Batters just can't tell the difference and can't help but roll over it for the most part.

Nonetheless, like others have said, why not have both?

Also, if the question is which one should I teach my son, there are all kinds of new factors to consider. Certainly, part of the advantage at younger levels is that the curveball will typically move more and the novice hitter will either never ID curveball and swing where the ball first appeared to be going or the hitter will ID curveball but not know how to hit it. Only a better hitter is deceived by the changeup because he is tuned in to the fastball timing-wise and is apt at reading spin.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:

quote:

Originally posted by bsbl247:
GBM,

I'm not going to argue with you. I leaned towards the slider for bballman's son, no big deal. You're absolutely correct, there are a number of pitchers that have had their breaking ball "coined" a slurve due to the fact that it's hard to make a determination between the two pitches. Maybe they don't call those "inbetween pitches" slurves in your area of Idaho...but the term is widely used here and other areas in baseball...that's a fact!

I wonder....how many guys in the big leagues throw "slurves"? Now certainly there must be a plethora of "inbetweeners" at even the big stage?

I know that some may call those inbetween pitches "slurves" but yet people in general still refer to a breaking ball as either a curve or a slider or even a cutter.

Here's your answer below per Wikipedia...and I'm sure I can find more info for you. BTW, I consider a cutter to be in the Fastball Family, a perfect example is the Cut Fastball that Rivera throws up to 93 MPH (96 in his prime) for the Yanks. That's JMO, I pitched in HS and JC in the 80's. I've been the sole pitching coach for my son who will be attending a pretty decent college beginning this fall. I realize that there are some members on this site that have forgotten more about baseball than I currently know, but I have a feeling that you're not one of them. I apologize if I appear to be harsh in this post, I honestly try my best to keep my reactions civil on this site...I just get annoyed when someone constantly thinks he has the answers to Everything Pitching. Again this is from Wikipedia...from Cy Young to Stephen Strasburg:

History
The first pitcher to utilize the slurve pitch is unknown. Johnny Sain of the Boston Braves was known to throw a slurve in the 1940s.[2] On May 6, 1998 Kerry Wood of the Chicago Cubs utilized the slurve in a major-league record tying twenty strikeout game.[3] Former Los Angeles Dodgers, Yakult Swallows and current Seibu Lions pitcher Kazuhisa Ishii, despite his well-documented control problems, uses a slurve almost exclusively against left-handers. Alfredo Aceves from the Boston Red Sox was also identified to throw a slurve pitch. Popular rookie of 2010 Stephen Strasburg claims to throw a slurve although experts still call the pitch curveball. Hall of Fame relief pitcher Goose Gossage stated that learning how to throw a slurve changed his career in his Yankeeography. Both Cy Young and Walter Johnson had slurves in their arsenals and Cy Young is the earliest known user of the pitch, having started his career in 1890.

I certainly don't claim to be an expert in pitching and I know that there is tons I don't know about. However, the term "slurve" is not generally used in evaluating breaking balls. There are a few however that do tend to use it to describe the breaking motion of a curveball or slider, and, also a few who use the term to describe an actual pitch. That is all fine by me, but generally speaking, the term "slurve" is in large part absent from mainstream baseball in describing the variations of breaking balls. You just don't turn on the TV and hear announcers calling pitches "slurves". Sure, there may be a few (and I have heard them), but generally speaking, you can watch a full episode of baseball tonight on ESPN and hear about pitchers throwing both curveballs and sliders and usually never once hear mention of the term "slurve".

Because it's not mentioned soesn't mean it doesn't exist.
According to son's former pitching coach, the HC at UF, the slurve is usually seen in a HS player that is just beginning to use a slider in his repotoire and doesn't have a strong reliance to the CB due to arm angle.
According to the natural slot used, the pitcher then is instructed towards a CB or a slider and is an ongoing process. As the pitcher moves forward it's either or.
The use of the slurve is not deemed 100% safe, because it's in between, could be why Strasburg had issues? Who knows how long he relied on that pitch. I am a strong beleiver his FB didn't do him in.

No, we know that they don't classify bb as a slurve when calling pitches. That's because by the time the pitcher reaches that level it's either a CB or a slider they rely on as their breaking pitch, not usually BOTH based upon what pitch is best for him individually(as the pitcher gets older and loses velocity he may have adjusted or relies on both).

I refuse to beleive that a dad from Idaho knows more than a high profile college pitching instructor.

Pitchf/x is real data, no where in that graph does it say that Kimbrel uses a CB. Now you want to argue that what you see in that graph or what someone calls is less accurate?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
According to son's former pitching coach, the HC at UF, the slurve is usually seen in a HS player that is just beginning to use a slider in his repotoire and doesn't have a strong reliance to the CB due to arm angle.
According to the natural slot used, the pitcher then is instructed towards a CB or a slider and is an ongoing process. As the pitcher moves forward it's either or.

I would agree with this. I would tend to classify my son's pitch as more of a slurve, moving toward the slider. His arm slot does not really allow him to throw a true CB. His PC has been working with him to throw more of a true slider. Less break, later break. This pitch has been effective so far, but it could be trouble at the next level.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
They still work most of the time though, except for the best 1-2 hitters per team.

And these are they guys you will be facing up and down the lineup when you move on to college ball.

If it doesn't work against them in HS, it won't work against anyone in college. My experience has been that this pitch can be effective, as long as you hit your spot and set it up correctly. If you make a mistake with it and either hang it or leave it over the middle of the plate, it will get hammered (as with almost any pitch). No question in my mind that this slurve pitch needs to move towards the slider with more velocity, less break and as late a break as you can get. The slower, more slurvy pitch can still be used as a 1st pitch strike pitch. Most guys are not going to swing at a BB for strike one. If you can hit the strike zone with it, it can be used for that, but not really as an out pitch with the better hitters.

Just my opinion. Could be wrong. We are not at the next level yet, so don't have experience with that, but I can imagine.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

Because it's not mentioned soesn't mean it doesn't exist.
According to son's former pitching coach, the HC at UF, the slurve is usually seen in a HS player that is just beginning to use a slider in his repotoire and doesn't have a strong reliance to the CB due to arm angle.
According to the natural slot used, the pitcher then is instructed towards a CB or a slider and is an ongoing process. As the pitcher moves forward it's either or.
The use of the slurve is not deemed 100% safe, because it's in between, could be why Strasburg had issues? Who knows how long he relied on that pitch. I am a strong beleiver his FB didn't do him in.

No, we know that they don't classify bb as a slurve when calling pitches. That's because by the time the pitcher reaches that level it's either a CB or a slider they rely on as their breaking pitch, not usually BOTH based upon what pitch is best for him individually(as the pitcher gets older and loses velocity he may have adjusted or relies on both).

I refuse to beleive that a dad from Idaho knows more than a high profile college pitching instructor.

Pitchf/x is real data, no where in that graph does it say that Kimbrel uses a CB. Now you want to argue that what you see in that graph or what someone calls is less accurate?

Yeah, I guess if I lived in South Florida I would somehow know! Being in "Idaho" must mean we are just a bunch of hillbilly potato farmers


Seriously, at the HS level, you generally tend to see more curveballs than anything else. The HS kids who have a lower arm slot combined with a harder breaking ball tend tio have sliders- naturally. Even at the HS level amongst the varsity decent pitchers, they either throw a curveball or slider and not a slurve.

My point with Kimbrel was to show that even a "slider" can have more up to down motion than side to side and that often times, by todays standards, a slider is defined first by velocity and second by motion of break.

At the MLB level, you are going to see breaking balls thrown regularly from straight up to down to side to side and everywhere inbetween. A "slurve" is basically defined as having break somewhere inbetween a curveball (straight up to down) and a slider (more side to side than up to down). But in defining this it may be better to say a slider is closer to a slurve than a curveball because most sliders at the MLB level move diaganol (kind of halfway inbetween). This is typically why a HS kids "slider" may be called a "slurve" by unknowing folks because they still lack the strength to throw it harder to give it a tighter break.

So, having thus understood that, a HS slider and a pro's slider really only differentiate by the velocity at which they are thrown.

Have a nice day.

GBM, don't think TPM's point was about Idaho vs. Fla. Don't mean to be speaking for someone else, but TPM's son is playing at a very high level - much higher than either one of our sons. Her input is coming from the experience of her son playing HS, top level college and now professional baseball. She has experienced things through her son that you and I can't possibly even imagine yet. I'm not saying that her input is always 100% right, but I don't think her input should be discarded by those of us with players with much less experience.

I know this - the farther up the chain a player goes, the more intense and specific the instruction is. Any instruction our kids have received (even if by former or current major leauge guys) is not near the intensity of what a top level college and professional baseball player receives on a daily basis. I wouldn't take her opinion lightly.

Just sayin'

quote:

So, having thus understood that, a HS slider and a pro's slider really only differentiate by the velocity at which they are thrown.

GBM, continued comments like this, as JH and others also point out, seem to illustrate a comparative belief between pitching in HS and pitching in Milb/MLB which is not at all reality.
If you take your son to AZ or Fla next March and go to a Milb complex, you will see 4-8 fields all in use at the same time. You can watch pitchers from low A to AAA, all at the same time.
At the professional level, the differences between a a low A, high A, AA and AAA breaking ball, curve ball, slurve and or slider can easily been seen, It isn't "only differentiated by velocity."
AA and AAA hitters can crush the breaking balls of high A and low A pitchers and it is not because of velocity.
Pitchers in Milb usually don't move up because their velocity on the breaking ball/slider increases.
They move up if their breaking ball/slider gets better at every level. When it does not, they get hit and released.
Sorry, but your continued comparative comments that only velocity differentiates between HS pitching and Milb/MLB breaking balls just do not have a relationship to reality. They just don't.

I get a kick of GBM.

He makes statements and then it takes him a while before he gets his story straight. I see this as a pattern, over teh years, he makes statments which are totally off the mark, if going back and doing research helps for him to understand better, good for him.

What infielddad posts is true, in milb ball a player doesn't move up because his velocity increases, he does so because the stuff he has gets better.

I find this amusing because my son came out of college with the tag, "polished". I didn't see it that way and I am his mom. It's taken a lot of work to refine his pitches, this being his 5th season. I don't think that anyone can really understand what it all entails unless you live it. He came out with a great slider but it is now 100% better than it was, and that has nothing to do with velocity. If there were no difference as GBM stated why is he still in AA? Even GBM's Kimbrel'sslider has gone through a change, everyone's stuff does.

It's easy to make conclusions when you have no clue what you are talking about.

I strongly believe in this case that GBM beleives that the only thing that differentiates HIS son's pitches from that of professionals is the lower velocity. He also believes that there is no difference between players that reside in states such as Idaho, Montana, compare to those from CA, FL, TX etc.

Maybe it does heve something to do with living in FL vs Idaho. It has nothing to do with having a player still in the game.

Good suggestion from infielddad, get yourself down for a week to watch some spring training in AZ, or take a trip down for the fall league, you will definetly see a difference between players in relation to age, ability and level last played. You will definetly see a difference between ML and milb players. Better yet, get to Omaha next year. That's a trip that shouldn't be missed by anyone.

Until then, IMO, you can continue to make the above type of statement, and contine to look foolish.

THE SANDBOX IS FULL

I guess it's settled. No HS or college kid can throw a slider with a late break.

quote:

Originally posted by SultanofSwat:
I guess it's settled. No HS or college kid can throw a slider with a late break.

Sultan, I'm sure you or someone will be able to explain where and how that comment fits.

Why is it that just because someone lives north of Arizona (as I do) that they somehow can't play or know talent? I can guarentee that if I lived in Southern California that no one would question my input.

Pretty much everything i have said regarding the breaking ball is true. You can go back and read all my posts- they don't varry on this thread. TPM believes that just because I live in Idaho that we have no talent here. Even when i state that a kid in our HS conference just graduated early and was pitching for a big D-1 school this year, she thinks that it is justa "filler" kid for the roster. I am sorry but big D-1 schools just don't sign kids to graduate early and come play in their program.

You need to get out of your own little corner of the world like others do to see what's out there.

By that I suggest trips to either East Cobb next summer or Jupiter, the big tournies in AZ. I suggested that you get into a PG showcase for an honest assesment of your players skills. Not until my son (and most players) got out of his own little corner (even in FL) did he realize there were a whole bunch of kids who are really talented all over the country, not just in his state. It gives them an idea of who he will be competing for regarding college scholarships, all over the country.
You don't have to live in FL, CA, TX, etc to actually have people respect your opinion. You do have to know what you are talking about though, regardless of where you live.

You named 3 programs "some" kids got scholarships to, Lewis and Clarke, University of Washington, Oregon (no other programs, D2,D3) and I asking you are they starters? You claim one almost got drafted. Yet you insist that talent is no different no matter where you live. You seem to know so much going on, but you can't give any info as to where players from where you live get recruited to?

I don't get that.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
You need to get out of your own little corner of the world like others do to see what's out there.

By that I suggest trips to either East Cobb next summer or Jupiter, the big tournies in AZ. I suggested that you get into a PG showcase for an honest assesment of your players skills. Not until my son (and most players) got out of his own little corner (even in FL) did he realize there were a whole bunch of kids who are really talented all over the country, not just in his state. It gives them an idea of who he will be competing for regarding college scholarships, all over the country.
You don't have to live in FL, CA, TX, etc to actually have people respect your opinion. You do have to know what you are talking about though, regardless of where you live.

You named 3 programs "some" kids got scholarships to, Lewis and Clarke, University of Washington, Oregon (no other programs, D2,D3) and I asking you are they starters? You claim one almost got drafted. Yet you insist that talent is no different no matter where you live. You seem to know so much going on, but you can't give any info as to where players from where you live get recruited to?

I don't get that.

TPM,

Right now I am actually at the largest showcase in the northwest. Every college from D-1 down to the junior colleges are at this event. Over 800 kids composing a field of over 40 teams representing whole states and metropolis areas are at this event. Most of the top players from 7 states and Canada are here. The Kids that go through this are the kids getting recruited by top colleges in our area and are getting drafted. Perhaps you don't realize it but they actually do have excellent players here in the NW just as they do in California or Florida. They play no different here than they do where you live.

I know where my own son stands at this point. I realize that there are many kids all over the country who are better than him, I don't have to go to East Cobb to know just where my kid stands. I have also not wasted money to this point going to showcases because after all- he was just a freshman this year. I have seen enough players though from the west (just about every state out west here) to know where my son stands. We know what son needs to work on to get to that next level. Son knows it is hard work, yet he has the determination to do just that! Over the next two years we will be getting out and showcasing at other events. But I already know exactly where he will stack up at least at this point. one doesn't have to go to an East Cobb tournament to know if he is good enough to play at a top D-1 school or get drafted. Sure, tournaments like that are nice if you can afford to go or get selected to play there but it isn't a requirement if one wants to know where one actually stacks up against.

I respect both of your opinions, but I can speak only for my son.

He did tournaments in Idaho.
Washington. Canada.
Big PG events and tournaments in California.
Oregon, Montana and Utah.
Texas.
Nevada.
He has played in Arizona almost a dozen times.
Wisconsin, Ohio and yes, Florida.

(He did well wherever they actually pitched him.)

I can tell you there are just as many stud pitchers in the Northwest, including Idaho, as anywhere else. Maybe not in overall numbers, but if you looked at the population and the total number of players the percentage of top players is about the same.

There is a misperception that the weather in the Northwest detracts from a pitcher's development. Not true. The weather is playable 8 months a year and the other 4 months you train. Playing year-round is not good anyway.

In fact, I lived in Florida, and I know it's 92 with thunderstorms and humidity in the summer--absolutely miserable (that's why they have a dome in Tampa)-- while in the Northwest it's delightful in the summer and fall and okay in the Spring. Seattle, where I grew up, despite its reputation, receives about 1/2 the annual rainfall as any Florida city. (Look it up.) (The Mariners have used their roof what, 10 times in 10 years?) They even have winter leagues in Seattle. 60 degrees in winter is not unheard of and 50 is about normal.

Boise, where I believe GBM lives, is sunny and warm most of the time.

Bum Jr. played about 110 games a year in the Northwest--that's enough.

(BTW Lewis and Clark could kick a** on most D1 programs.)

GBM,

I truly wish your son the best. I hope he does well at this weeks showcase tourney, his future showcases/tournaments, and his next three years in high school. I've learned that the farther our kids move on in this sport, the smaller the baseball world becomes. It would be cool if a number of the poster's on this site had kids that move on to play at the highest level. TPM's son has been pretty close, making the 40 man roster earlier in the year. We hear of Zach Duke, there's a thread on Vance Worley, and of course, Nick Adenhart. Their parents have all posted in the HSBBWeb, and I'm sure there are many more. Maybe we'll be talking about your son 7-8 years from now...who knows?

I don't care about the differences you and TPM had throughout this thread regarding curveball or breakingball? The truth is, I was just going with the flow until the Craig Kimbrell slider video was posted and you stated it was a 12-6 break? And then you followed it up stating sometimes it's a 2-8 break (Lefty?)? You went on to say that you didn't see much of a difference between breaking balls in a high school game in your area and the professional team that you've watched on occasion...only that the Pro's throw their breaking balls a Wee Bit harder on average. That statement alone makes me question your knowledge...Wow, I hope you also noticed the depth/bite/deception differences?

After we went back and forth on Kimbrell, you posted this, followed by a video of your son throwing his breaking ball in a Frosh Game:

"Perhaps I am just biased but like in my son's case, his BB is top-notch at the HS level. It is definately his strike-out pitch. He probably has one of the best breaking balls in HS ball in our portion of the state (about 20 high schools) and definately the best I saw all year for his specific age. The last camp he went to, the guy in charge was really impressed with the quality and level of his breaking ball. He was more impressed with that than his above average velocity on his FB for his age, That is saying something."

I know there is good baseball in the Northwest. My son played some excellent teams from that area over the last couple of years. But you opened yourself up by stating your son's BB is top-notch at the HS level, and followed that up with a video of him striking a Freshman baseball player out looking, with what you admit was hung a little. You also said "he has one of the best breaking balls in HS ball in our portion of the state (20 high schools)." That's a bold statement, it could be true? But why would you put that out there?

Lastly, bballman posted a video of his boy. I watched the video and gave him my input, stating that I thought his son was throwing a slider, possibly a slurve? You had to chime in and my frustration got the best of me.

I'm going golfing tomorrow, so I won't be checking out the HSBBWeb until the weekend. I hope that this thread has run it's course and we can all move on and start some new topics. Like I said earlier GBM, I sincerely hope the best for your son...maybe we'll have a thread on him in the future?

bsbl247,

I respect you and I wasn't meaning any harm with the whole "slurve" deal. We both know that breaking balls and their definitions can get very confusing. I also stated earlier that the 2-8 break from Kimbrel was from the pitchers point of view- just to clarify.

In the video I posted, my son was actually striking out the a varsity (senior) batter from that team. Sorry for the confusion if you thought he (the batter) was a freshman. In the video I was stating that my son was a freshman at this time. Sorry for that confusion.

quote:

Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
bsbl247,

I respect you and I wasn't meaning any harm with the whole "slurve" deal. We both know that breaking balls and their definitions can get very confusing. I also stated earlier tha

t the 2-8 break from Kimbrel was from the pitchers point of view- just to clarify.

In the video I posted, my son was actually striking out the a varsity (senior) batter from that team. Sorry for the confusion if you thought he (the batter) was a freshman. In the video I was stating that my son was a freshman at this time. Sorry for that confusion.

Bum,
I beleive you, no one said there was not talent in the NW, however, the above is an example of what usually has turned people off, the "my son is better than anyone else" attitude, I have known you for many, many years and you have been most helpful and you know your stuff and that you have been through the drill and you know what it takes due to your son's persaon experiences and sometimes it's a lot harder than we all can imagine.

Your opinions are a reflexion of where you have been in the process with your son, not where you are going. I have never seen you post how much better your son was than any other player he's played up against, as I have never seen that with many of the parents here on this site. In fact, there are amnay folks here whose sons attend great programs and they are good players, but you would never know.

There is a big difference between parents such as yourself and GBM.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I have also not wasted money to this point going to showcases because after all- he was just a freshman this year. QUOTE]

My point exactly, he's just a freshman. You will know a lot more after he is a senior!

TPM, thanks for the nice compliment. And you're so right, looking back I can tell any parent of an aspiring h.s. or college player that I've seen more players washed up due to lack of hard work, overbearing parents, or mental toughness than lack of ability.

In fact, lack of ability usually is associated with one of these three factors.