Clemens, Petitte, Tejada

Talent, work ethic, they're all stars. Is there a right answer to this?

They get slandered on the internet by losers. Right?

They were all screwed by Grimsley

Despite all of this, 2 of the 3 will probably end up in the Hall of Fame, as they should.

As far as Clemens and Tejada these accusations are old news (that's 2 of 3)
Clemens and Petitte have the same trainer (that's 2 of 3)
Clemens and Petitte have the same agent (2 outta 3)
Innocent, gulity or whatever, given its past history (pretty much other than the 1919 black sox 'scandel' and pete rose) MLB will do nothing about any of this ultimately (oops, I guess that is 3 outta 3)

They were all mentioned in an article written by Lance Pugmire in the LA Times…..

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/la-sp-clemens1oct0...ry?coll=chi-news-hed

They are all not having a very good day today.

Where's Bud Selig? He promised an investigation when the Barroid Grand Jury testimont made it to book form...then he virtually vanished.

I'd seen somewhere that Clemen's comeback this year happened after 50 days had passed...I didn't count the days up, but there may be some credibility to the rumor that swirled about the Rocket getting suspended, but not publicized.

If it's true, it really stinks. And the whole time, it is a given that there are players using masking agents, non-detectable designer steroids, or Human Growth Hormone.

None of the players have tested positive (as far as we know). Innocent until proven guilty. Speculation? Sure. There are many other players I suspect had "help." But until one tests positive, or admits it (like Giambi), I will withhold judgement.

Here is my "beef" with all of this. Say a hitters name and they are instantly guilty. Some are guilty despite undergoing several drug test in their playing days. Guilty despite the fact that what they took was legal at that time and not "barred" from MLB. Guilty because their achievements broke traditional standards. However, let it be certain pitchers or, for that matter, A CERTAIN PITCHER, and now for most of our society it's innocent until proven guilty. Oh the Hypocracy!

Told recently by someone with close access to players that HGH use is quite high and players laugh at steroid testing. Only fools and minor leaguers without the $ or access to "right guy" still using the roids.
Again, no test for HGH so any players coming out and saying they're clean means nothing. Years from now the real secret to come out will be use of HGH, not the steroids. Till they test for it nobody is "clean".

dennis400, so true! We just had this converstation. Given the scenerio that you or your teammate both stand a chance to make it to the bigs. The teammate has put on 20 lbs in the offseason in muscle. You battled this past spring and held your own but now it's the off season again. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO KNOWING NO TEST EXIST FOR HGH?

Technically they are "clean"

quote:

Originally posted by denisr400:
Again, no test for HGH so any players coming out and saying they're clean means nothing. Years from now the real secret to come out will be use of HGH, not the steroids. Till they test for it nobody is "clean".

...and nodody is dirty. It's all just polite conversation unless there is physical evidence. Heresay is just that and proves absolutely nothing. We will never really know the identity of the vast majority of offenders, imo.

This goes against logic but maybe it's time to approach this in a different light to bring them out of the closest. One time partial amnesty. If caught using a banned substance for the first time you would have your suspension reduced by 50% if you cooperate with authorities and turn on your supplier. The supplier can then negotiate with authorities by turning on others he supplied. Next offence nail them all to the wall.

Some might say that no one would turn on a "buddy". I say bull, these guys are all about money and cheated to begin with so integrity is not an attribute high on their list of values. Soon there will be fear running throught the system at the user level and thats where you want fear to reside.

Without a test for HGH, when will they ever get that first guy to rat out? Um, with million$$$ at stake the honor system doesn't appear viable, in a sport notorious for cheating going back about a hundred years including the use of a telescope to steal the sign for the pitch from Ralph Branca to Bobby Thompson to win the 1950 something World Series, to spitballs, cork bats, testing is the only recourse.

rz1....way too intelligent for MLB to put in play!

Problem is...it just might work!

I agree with TR that they are clean to this point. I also have a problem with the witch hunt mentality of reporters, networks and prosecutors. My question is how much is all this hurting the game we love. Take yesterday for example.

Three division races up for grabs, a total of six games meant something yesterday. Where was the coverage by the so called big four networks. Instead MLB was playing second fiddle to week four of the NFL, a NASCAR race and a golf tournament involving Tiger. Further, you had a catcher chasing the batting crown and a second year player chasing 60 homeruns. Is the steroid controversy and surrounding circus making the public question everything that happens and making the national pasttime, a sidenote on the sporting landscape.

Selig better figure this out quickly. I have little faith in his ability to manage this situation.

what all 3 have in common is that since they are nice to the press they will not be destroyed like barry bonds

.

Add this to a plan like Rz's...

Stock the samples. Tell the players that no, we can't test for HGH, but it is illegal, a reliable test is not far off and we will retroactively test samples. Big penanlties. Take the risk?
Maybe. Maybe not.

44
.

I am always amazed at the number of people who would rather avoid the question than expose the truth. We don't know if these guys took steroids or not bot if anything is hurting the game it is those who take steroids. It is cheating and gives them a huge advantage over straight players.
I have seen what it can do. It is like putting a tiger in your tank at the risk of serious helth problems. Why should a clean player be put under pressure to compete by taking steroids.
A LHP who I have known for years got into the steroids and he went from average to a beast over night. Added 20 lbs over a few monthys and huge increase in intensity and velocity. He would only admit to taking creatin but everyone was talking about him. He bgecame a dominant pitcher and I remember my son being scheduled to pitch the final 3 innings behind this guy. 1st game of the season. I watched him and said to myself how is he going to look behind this guy ? I was shocked at thye difference in him. Everything he did was intense like he was on dope. He eventually went to college and failed the drug test. No longer at college or playing baseball.
This stuff creates an unfair playing field and pressure kids to take steroids inorder to compete. His coaches pre colleg new he had to be on drugs and siad nothing to him.

i used to think who cares if their on the juice ,they still have to hit the ball. but it's not size that's the issue .it seems to me it's the recovery time that is the issue,with pitchers anyway.i'm sure it makes them stronger as well.


maybe they should make everyone take it ,wipes out the advantage?

20dad

Perhaps everyone is taking it!!!


And what about the stuff Randy Johnson takes in his knees and now for the disc problem in his back--isnt that an enhancement?

IMO - You need a compromise that combines reality - the unstoppable desire for money - and fan support.

Here is my idea:

You start another league. Exactly the same as MLB. We will call it MLHB. Stands for "Major League Hulk Baseball".

In this league - you will have an exemption - granted by our government - to take whatever you want. Nothing illegal.

No limits - the only testing required to play in the league is testing to prove that you are juiced out of your mind. Horse membrane - HGH - anabolic steroids - anything you want. But you must prove it.

Then we will keep the current MLB. But you test for real.

My guess - is - we will see more opportunities for players - as we will have another 32 teams or so.

Fans will love both leagues:

The purists will love MLB - who still believe you shoudnt inject yourself with all sorts of freaked out Twilight Zone stuff.

The new wave fans will love the MLHB deal. Monster players - hitting 700 foot home runs off the end of the bat - and growing heads the size of large pumpkins. Pitchers throwing so hard - their arms seperate completely from their bodies after a particularly hard fastball. Like a WWF thing - only more hard core.

No one has to hide anything.

I think both can work.

quote:

And what about the stuff Randy Johnson takes in his knees and now for the disc problem in his back--isnt that an enhancement?

Please...don't tell us that you're comparing an epidural injection of lidocaine and cortisone with the cattle steroids and Human Growth Hormone that is being used by athletes to get bigger and stronger ...I know it's late, and I've had a long day at work, but I've got to be hallucinating the fact that you're even writing that..

tr
you have a point.maybe they are all taking it.lol

2seamer

PLEEEEEEEEASE--- we are talking enhancement drugs---for me anything that is used as Johnson uses his drugs is an enhancement drug---ALL players want an edge and most do not care how they get it

Is taking two ADVIL prior to a game a performance enhancement drug. Where should the line be drawn????

To me the enhancement is when you turn a 150 pound kid into an NFL linebacker based on "conditioning" and supplements .....

catcher09

Taking two advil before every game is a bad habit to get into--it is not healthy

Tell me what does taking advil before the game do for you ?

That wasn't my point - where do we cross the line - ADVIL can make a player feel better for an inning or two - it enhances his ability to play with pain - bad in my opinion as well.

What about injections of pain relievers, etc, etc.

Again, where is the line???

As for the line you need to ask MLB---their line is a very braod and grey one

For me the use of pain relievers, especially to the extent that they relieve pain from a herniated disc or injections in the knee so the bones don't rub are definite enhancers, just as much so as "greenies"

quote:

PLEEEEEEEEASE--- we are talking enhancement drugs---for me anything that is used as Johnson uses his drugs is an enhancement drug---ALL players want an edge and most do not care how they get it

So, using your half-cocked definition of "enhancement drugs", you would include anything that could conceivably give an athlete an edge...Advil, Tylenol, coffee, Mountain Dew, iced tea, Gatoraid, ice water, a high carbohydrate meal, icing a shoulder after throwing, BenGay, having a Cool Mister blow on you in the dugout during a hot game, eyeblack, sunglasses, batting gloves, maple bats, watching film of a batter/pitcher, keeping stats..they all give an edge.

That's all utterly ridiculous. Last time I checked, unprescribed anabolic steroids and Human Growth Hormone were illegal...a ham sandwich isn't. MLB doesn't test to see if a player has an extra plate of pasta for a pregame meal. What they SHOULD be testing for, they're not...that'll be Bud Selig's legacy, if he ever comes out of hiding.

Catcher09, since TR cut you short without an answer, taking Advil or other anti-inflammatories will do just that..reduce inflammation. The flip side of that is that it makes you more prone to bleeding..so, for example, if you throw a lot, it can actually cause increased bleeding in your shoulder where the act of throwing causes "micro-tears". Anywhere else that you may sustain an injury..getting hit by a pitch, rolling an ankle running the bases, having a collision at home plate...will tend to bleed more into surrounding tissues.

2seamer

I have to apologize to you--I totally forgot that you are the "medical expert"

What about what ADVIL can do to the stomach when taken regularly ?

I just love your adjective use !!! And talk about, to use your term, "half-cocked"---you are a bit ludicrus arent you ( and I do not mean the rap star)

Note to 2Seamer---I too have medical knowledge what with a number of doctors in the family(uncles and cousins) and as you well know there are various theories on all of this discussion matter.

Truly enjoy the banter with you

We continue to look at MLB management as the culprit. The more I read these posts the more I feel that MLB has lagged behind in the detecting, reporting, and penalty of banned substances for two reasons.

1. Because initially the league gave the benefit of the doubt to the players to "do the right thing" and police themselves. As fans we always use the quick draw approach to fixing problems when in reality it take years for problems to fester into monsters. When those problems are identified and those that make the rules are convinced that they will not be cured from within, it then takes time to develop testing procedures, resolve union issues, establish penalties, and at the same time keep up with "real time" day to day issues. Doesn't this sound like the way local, State, and the Federal government works and how they handle issues? I will always complain about issues but as I have gotten older and watched history unfold I've come to realize that this is the way things happen and and get resolved. If they slammed the hammer down on every issue when it came up without letting it unfold we would then complain that we live in a dictatorship type environment.

2. We live in a world that loves to litigate but fears litigation. It's much safer to sit on your hands and watch problems unfold; than pound your fist, be wrong, and pay for it.

Steroids is the "now" issue. I'm going to throw something out on the table and 10 years from now you will say "I know this idiot who predicted this 10 years ago". My crystal ball says.......

Pitchers that are drafted very high and get the big bonus money will be shelved after the draft and will go under the TJ knife as an elective surgery. Besides protecting an investment, the surgery will be even more refined than it is today and those pitchers will come out of the procedure stronger and more resilient than they started off being. Now the issue. Is this a form of bionic enhancement that will have to be regulated because throws off the level of the playing field? Maybe it's not the joint issue, it could be ocular, who knows.

I hate science fiction but with my sons recent experience, talks with doctor, agents, and scouts, I've come to the conclusion that while none of them has come out with the theory they all have reasons that could make it a reality.

I didn't go into the issue of bleeding ulcers or the potential of liver damage because that tends to happen more with long term, chronic use...not a 17 year old baseball player that wants to eliminate soreness. The short term, more immediate effect to a person like catcher09 is just what I described.

You still haven't explained the similarity in your mind between taking Tylenol and injecting oneself with cattle steroids.

In Barry Bond's own words..

quote:

"Doctors ought to quit worrying about what ballplayers are taking. What players take doesn't matter. It's nobody else's business

...

quote:

"You're talking about something that wasn't even illegal at the time. All this stuff about supplements, protein shakes, whatever. Man, it's not like this is the Olympics."

2seamer

Read what I posted, please

I asked why the player was taking ADVIL before the game and did he realize the dangers

And yes if the ADVIL is being taken to "mask" pain then it an enhancer, at least in my mind, just as cortisone shots are enhancers

quote:

Because initially the league gave the benefit of the doubt to the players to "do the right thing" and police themselves.

It all comes down to one thing...money. More for the players, more for the teams. Players have the inducement of using an illegal substance which will make them more money..if you cheat, and hypothetically boost your batting average 20 points, hit an extra 10 home runs, or pick up 3 mph on your fastball, those differences could be worth tens of millions of dollars.

Likewise, the teams make more because of the players. Anyone that thinks that the teams aren't aware that a guy that drastically changes their body in a short period of time is doing something shady is fooling themselves.

2seamer

Based on your above post how do you explain the numberS Howard put up this year ?

quote:

Read what I posted, please

I asked why the player was taking ADVIL before the game and did he realize the dangers

And yes if the ADVIL is being taken to "mask" pain then it an enhancer, at least in my mind, just as cortisone shots are enhancers

You didn't tell the kid anything about the dangers of Advil. You asked him a question and basically cut him short. Your definition of an "enhancer" is vague..it would include all the things I'd previously mentioned, including taping a sprained ankle. Once again, you're trying to muddy the water in the distinction between legal substances and illegal substances.

And for the record, I'm not for players getting cortisone shots to try and play.