Club vs. High School baseball, next round

quote:

If I understood the situation correctly the players were doing this because the HS program would not allow them to play on a competitive team in the summer. Instead they were told they had to play on the HS summer team. If this is the case then I dont have a problem with a player making this type of decision.

If they are just choosing to play on a more competitive team instead of playing HS baseball I think thats a shame.

Thats my understanding Coach May,
It seems like the High Schools want to control where there players play in the off season. Thats not right.

I believe in HS baseball strongly.
But talented players are going to seek the toughest competition.
Thats the only way to judge your own talent.

I think Mike Spiers is just conteracting what the HS association is trying to pull. ( control Players for the benefit of a summer program for the HS ).

EH

Coach Spiers may be trying to do what is right, to his perception. But it is the same reason that people started skipping LL to play travel. Exactly the same reasons. The reasons for staying in HS are exactly the same used by community based youth teams. It is a slippery slope and for everyone that is doing it for the right reasons, you will have a few doing it for the wrong reasons. If they are successful and a few kids get D1 spots or high draft choices, HS ball will be dying just like LL. The HS's need to adjust when there is competition. The states that allow travel in the off season will do OK. But they will feel the pain.

quote:

The states that allow travel in the off season will do OK. But they will feel the pain.

Pain of what, its the HS off season. They do not control were a player can play. ( but the HS is trying to control when and where you play ).
Thats not right.

EH

quote:

What competitive team would he find during the high school baseball season if all of the competitive high school aged players are playing high school ball?

Great point. Depends on the marketing ability of Mr. Spiers and who he can influence. The first line of the newspaper article says a lot: "An Inland man with hefty influence in amateur baseball". Obviously he has a lot of clout. My opinion is being formed as I read on --- I notice in these threads that PGStaff comments about high school players:
They still need to play against the best possible competition when ever possible. That won't happen during the high school season unless the entire country avoids high school baseball. I don't see this becoming popular throughout the country. At least not in the near future. Many would call that an endorsement from probably the most respected baseball person I know about.



MTS, answer this question and I think you will find your answer. Who did the first travel team play?
Fungo

quote:

Pain of what, its the HS off season. They do not control were a player can play. ( but the HS is trying to control when and where you play ).
Thats not right.

Is is anymore wrong than travel teams trying to dictate what high school sports and when a player plays them?

I meant the pain of clubs that play during the HS season. If you think it will only affect California, well, good luck. I have always thought it would become nationwide in the future. Wherever there is a bad HS coach, a parent who thinks his son is getting a raw deal in HS, or a kid that can play baseball but can't stay eligible, you will have a candidate for starting a spring team. They will be able to pick talent from the entire region. Most will do it for good and honorable reasons. That doesn't matter. All HS's will feel the pain of competition.

quote:

They do not control were a player can play. ( but the HS is trying to control when and where you play )

EH this same situation you describe happened in Tennessee in about 2001. A High School Coach in Tennessee kept his team together (which was allowed) for the summer and would not allow them to play for another team telling them they would be cut from the HS team if they did so. The powers determined the high school coach had no right to coerce a player during the summer months. He lost his job and since that time the restrictions have tightened significantly on high school coaches and their off season activities.

If there are travel team coaches telling players what sports to play that is wrong. If there are "and apparently there is" hs coaches telling hs players where they can play in the summer that is wrong. Put yourself in this situation. Your son plays for a hs program. He is a talented player but plays in a hs program that offers very little as far as coaching , exposure and competition for this player. He is offered the opportunity to play for a very good summer team with and against other very good players. This opportunity will give him the opportunity to be coached by some other coaches and give him a chance to become a better player. The hs summer team is just an extension of the hs season for him.

Now the hs coach tells him "You play for us or there will be consequences next season." The parents of the other players say "Yeah I guess what we know what he is all about now." Your telling me thats a fair situation? If your son was in this situation what would you do? Is that a coach looking after his players best intentions or a coach trying to look after himself?

If these coaches dont want this stuff to happen then they need to stop trying to control what these players do on their own time.

As a parent you have to do what is best for your son in the off season. If you spend all your time worrying about makeing everyone else happy you will at the expense of makeing yourself and your son very unhappy. There will always be people upset when they feel your getting opportunities their sons are not getting. But your son earned it. He worked for it. Maybe while your son was busting his butt getting better their kid was chilling?

I dont have a problem with the other players and parents that stuff is always going to be there. But the coaches? Should they not want what is best for the player? Since when did the hs coach have all this power when school is not even in session? Since when did the hs coach become so powerful that he can decide where your son plays in the off season?

For some kids extending the hs season is not appealing. They want more in the off season. They want more instruction , instruction from other coaches , better competition , play with like minded players that have the same goals and aspirations as they do. But they have to play for the HS coach in the summer , or else. Boy , what a load of you know what.

Let me just add a couple of thoughts here.

HS coaches need to understand there are tremendous benefits to players when they get coached by other coaches. They actually learn some things. Sometimes they actually get some great instruction that you are not getting them. Myself included. There are some great coaches out there. Getting coached by other guys sometimes can get that light to turn on that you have not been able to turn on. Its a nice break for some kids. If your a bench guy all year long and now your playing for the same hs coach all summer whats that like? Maybe someone else will see something you dont see?

Sometimes a change of pace in coaching is just what the doctor ordered for some kids. Sometimes just a different approach even though your teaching the same thing can be the difference maker for a kid. Different drills? Different styles? Different adjustments? I have seen kids struggle during the hs season , go play for someone else and tear it up. More comfortable? More at ease? More confidence? Just a different venue?

All I want is for them to come back better than they were when they left. If someone else can do that I am all for it. I learn from my players all the time. "Hey Coach , Coach Smith was telling me I was opening up way too early." "He showed me this and now I really feel more comfortable." Great , keep it up.

What the hel is wrong with people? Never let your ego stop a kid from getting better or having a better opportunity. If it does get out of coaching , your a stumbling block and need to go.

Could we back track a bit. Because I don't recall endorsing anything.

Rbinaz posted

quote:

Just an aside note, Mr. Spiers is also the West Coast Director for Perfect Game.
I'd like to hear PG Staff weigh in on this.

PGStaff replied

quote:

To be honest I don't know enough about this to make an intelligent comment.

I will say... I support high school baseball. I also think high school baseball should support other baseball programs.

We will be following this closely. If the idea is to destroy high school baseball, we will never be involved. That doesn't necessarily mean we would be against what Mike Spiers is trying to accomplish.

In Southern California there are many players. They still need to play against the best possible competition when ever possible. That won't happen during the high school season unless the entire country avoids high school baseball. I don't see this becoming popular throughout the country. At least not in the near future.

It appears that there are a lot of HS coaches in California dictating what their players can and can not do during the off season. Not saying that what Mike's doing is the answer, but someone needs to make a stand. High School coaches are extremely important, but they don't own the kids they coach.

Need to add... High School coaches aren't any different than players or any other coaches... Some are good... Some are bad! If all they care about is there corner of the world, they are among the bad. As great as high school baseball can be, there is much more involved in the game of baseball.

Then I replied to a post by justbaseball

quote:

justbaseball,

I remember you bringing that up. I sincerely hope my grandkids play high school baseball, too. It's a very special thing!

Fungo Posted

quote:

My opinion is being formed as I read on --- I notice in these threads that PGStaff comments about high school players:
They still need to play against the best possible competition when ever possible. That won't happen during the high school season unless the entire country avoids high school baseball. I don't see this becoming popular throughout the country. At least not in the near future. Many would call that an endorsement from probably the most respected baseball person I know about.

If I said something that sounds like an endorsement I didn't mean to. I don't know everything that is involved, but it seems like a simple solution. Club Baseball leaves high school baseball players alone during high school season. High school coaches allow their players to do other things when it is not high school season. I don't know what is going on, but have been told that the problem was started from the high school side. If not I doubt there would be any problem.

Either way, I am not endorsing anything here! Especially not endorsing the destruction of high school baseball. Sorry if anything I have written looks in any way like an endorsement.

What I meant by the comment Fungo quoted was the whole advantage of club or travel ball is to be able to play the best competition nationally. So if S. California does what ever the plan might be... who will they play that is any better than normal high school unless the rest of the country does the same thing. That is not likely to happen in my lifetime. Sometimes it is hard to explain your thoughts accurately when posting.

Strangely enough this is starting to sound like some kind of "end times" discussion. I really doubt anyone will destroy high school baseball anytime soon.

I certainly can't speak for others experience, but mine has been a mixed bag as regards high school baseball outside of the school academic year. Most of the good programs in our area have summer teams, and the coaches of those teams each handle the issue differently. Some make it very easy for their players to participate on travel clubs. Others aren't quite as accomodating, but still work with us to a degree to try to make it work for all sides. Still others fight the concept of the player being anywhere but with them at all costs.

My philosophy is that we begin play once the high schools release their players by finishing their spring season. We generally start over Memorial Day weekend and then play until early to mid August so that the players will get plenty of baseball in front of as many college coaches as we can play in front of, while also stopping early enough to give the boys some down time from when we end till school starts. We do almost nothing in the fall except one large showcase tournament in Arizona where the players have an opportunity to play in front of many college coaches again. In the winter, we work out a little bit on weekends, and those workouts are great as we get a mix of coaches there to work with the players. Some of the coaches are our travel club coaches, some are jr. college coaches, still others are MLB scouts or coaches there to work with the players and get to know them better. The players get exposure to many different points of view and coaching styles this way.

The problem we run into is when a high school coach tells a player that he can't play with us during summer because he has to play for HS summer team or legion team. I've literally had to take a player to the Atlanta airport in the middle of a WWBA tournament at East Cobb to fly him home early because his high school coach told him that if he weren't home to pitch in a legion game, that he could forget playing spring HS ball the following year. I've also seen one of our players kicked off his HS summer team, and then made to try out for the spring season team as if he were a new kid despite being the starting shortstop the previous year. Why did he get kicked off? Because he had the audacity to go with us to USA Baseball's Jr. Olympics in Arizona! Last summer, we had to drop out of a large tournament at it's midpoint because a certain high school coach told the players who are on his spring team that they had to be at a tournament he had entered a team into, even though they hadn't played a single game for weeks. I lost three players due to that stunt due to their fear of not doing as their HS coach told them. That type of conduct is wrong, plain and simple and there is no justifying it.

On the other hand, there are many excellent high school coaches who realize that we should all be coaching for the players and who work around all these schedule conflicts that we invariably create by young men playing on two teams in summer. I respect those coaches and try to do everything I can to work cooperatively with them to benefit both programs and the players.

Like I said before, there are good and bad on both sides of the fence.

This will quickly become a "hot potato" for many.

PGStaff, my apologies for including you in my comments but I did so to explain how I see this unfolding. As a much deserved compliment to you, the vast majority of baseball people respect your opinions and comments, me included. I was careful not to say you endorsed these types programs because you didn't. I said Many will see your comments as an endorsement and they will. If you don't see this as a huge problem, I will repeat that many will see that as an endorsement. You are an icon. Your position on this is extremely important. While I don't always agree with what you say (nor do you with me) I do have the greatest respect for what you say.
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As I see it these programs will have a devastating impact on high school baseball if they gather momentum. I think it's wrong to abandon a high school team and justifying it by saying the high school coach won't allow a player to play summer ball.

If one reads the California Interscholastic Federation Article 50 #510 it addresses undue influence to participate in high school athletics and in doing so will jeopardize the schools standing in the CIF. If Mr. Spiers wants to correct a wrong then he should go to the CIF and specifically namethe high school coaches that allegedly are using undue influence on their hs players and they will be punished. He won't because that's not his goal.

quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:

The problem we run into is when a high school coach tells a player that he can't play with us during summer because he has to play for HS summer team or legion team. I've literally had to take a player to the Atlanta airport in the middle of a WWBA tournament at East Cobb to fly him home early because his high school coach told him that if he weren't home to pitch in a legion game, that he could forget playing spring HS ball the following year. I've also seen one of our players kicked off his HS summer team, and then made to try out for the spring season team as if he were a new kid despite being the starting shortstop the previous year. Why did he get kicked off? Because he had the audacity to go with us to USA Baseball's Jr. Olympics in Arizona! Last summer, we had to drop out of a large tournament at it's midpoint because a certain high school coach told the players who are on his spring team that they had to be at a tournament he had entered a team into, even though they hadn't played a single game for weeks. I lost three players due to that stunt due to their fear of not doing as their HS coach told them. That type of conduct is wrong, plain and simple and there is no justifying it.


Like I said before, there are good and bad on both sides of the fence.

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IMO this is the stuff that will hurt high school baseball, not the travel teams. If HS baseball disappears or loses players, the losses will be self inflicted by there ignorance and rigidity. People like to make there own decisions, not have them made for them and jammed down there throats. If a hs school coach forces a kid to play summer ball do you think the kid will be happy? Would an unhappy player who is ticked off get better or help his team? Probably not.
These coaches better think about what they wish for. After a year or so I think players will make the choice to play elsewhere.

I can say right now that if my son's coach told him "play summer ball with me or don't come back in the spring" he wouldn't bat an eye before he said "nice knowing you coach." While his hs coaches seem to be nice men, they know about 1% of what the travel program coaches know. Not including the recruiting game.

I agree with Fillsfan in that requiring a player to force a player to play summer baseball locally is not a good thing. Players should be able to take the path that's best for them, and for better players, travel and tournaments is a better way that local American Legion of Babe Ruth leagues.

It's been my experience that recruiting today occurs almost exclusively through summer travel baseball and showcase environments, which makes it important for players to get themselves seen at these events. So I agree that the "nice knowing you coach" approach could be necessary in some situations.

I don't agree that HS coaches unilaterally know less than travel coaches. I know some truly amazing and highly knowledgable coaches around here. They are just focused on building the best HS team possible with the players they have. That includes, in some cases, trying to require the better players stay with their scholastic teammates in local leagues. I've also seen some pretty blockheaded coaches in travel baseball through the years.

I think high school baseball is the most important thing to play, for many reason's.

As people say recruiting is done in the summer. maybe for your playing ability. high school, like college is a test for time management. school work, baseball,etc. you won't find those things out in a travel team.

i may be naive in my thinking,around here coaches want to see you play high school ball. unless your hitting 96 on the gun.

Yes, its certainly true that there are 'idiot' HS coaches...just like there are 'idiots' in the general population. Our older son experienced an 'idiot' or two in HS (along with some good guys) and our younger son is experiencing the antithesis of idiot.

But some of these 'idiots' behave as they do because of 'idiots' running summer or travel ball teams...or even moreso, 'idiot parents' who think their son IS an "elite" player from an "elite" travel team, and therefore that translates into "must-be-a-star" at his HS.

We've all either witnessed or heard about the parent who makes an appointment with the HS coach and his AD to "discuss" how their son should be/must be a starter on varsity as a freshman because he's a superstar on his "travel elite team" that won 13 trophies this past summer.

Why does the parent feel this is necessary? What HS coach do you know that doesn't want to put the best team on the field? I know...the "idiots?"

I personally know of parents (thats plural) who run or are involved in the coaching of their son's "elite" travel team...question the value of HS baseball at all...have tried to do what is described in this article...and when they couldn't pull it off, became one of their son's HS coaches (there's a shortage of good folks wanting to do that out here). Now tell me, who/what are they in it for?

Even if we assume/accept that Mr. Spiers is doing this for all of the right reasons...he would most certainly attract the parents I described above...especially if they can enroll their team intact or become a coach themselves. Its all about the parents having the control...in most HS's, the parents have very little control and that drives us crazy...doesn't it?

I also know, from reliable sources, of stories such as a stud HS pitcher who "couldn't pitch" in his HS's championship game...because, it was later found out...he needed to pitch for his travel team coach 2-3 days later. Or the HS QB who called in sick on a game Friday but was later found out to be out of town in a baseball "elite" event.

So who is the knucklehead here? The HS coach who gets fed up and invents silly rules? Or the parent/kid who lies to get out of a HS game? Or the summer coach who tells him that his team is more important than the HS team?

Its a slippery slope. Well-intentioned people sometimes make unintentional ice...that parents/kids are more than happy to slide on. And HS coaches are caught looking like the "idiot."

There are just some things, no matter how they must taste from time to time, that cannot be messed with. Apple pie is one. Hot dogs too. But HS baseball is another. Thats my view...sorry if I offended anyone.

Why don't they all get along and sing Kumbayah.

There are 12 months in the year. In Cali and other nice climates the opportunity exists for baseball the entire year. Isn't the option to play outside of high school for 9-10 of those months enough for players to seek college opportunities and a whopping average $5000 baseball grant?

Enterprising adults looking for a buck(CLUB)appear to be the root of the issue.

High School sports are about your school, pride, your buddies, and most of all, FUN.

You know this Cali kid:

Moustakas' most memorable moment from the season was when he pitched four shutout innings against Kennedy High School in the City Section Championship.

He was named California Sophomore of the Year by Cal-Hi Sports.

"“I had one goal this year,” said Moustakas, The Times’ player of the year. “That was to win the City championship, at all costs.”

While media members concentrated on his record-breaking home run march and scouts attended every game to analyze his skills and gauge his potential, he kept his eye on the prize.

“I can’t think about records too much,” he said. “If I did, it would have impeded the season. My goal wasn’t to break any home run records, my goal was to help my team win the City championship.”

As a freshman's Dad, I am eager to find out if my son can make the JV, I am not asking for Varsity spot, just JV will be fine for me. I heard JV is just a "honorable" team to put all those Juniors and Seniors who can't never play Varsity and save face. Is that true? If that's the case I might be disappionted.

The reason I want my freshman son to play JV is because I saw the miserable talent level of the freshman team. I don't want my kid to be dragged down with them. Having been playing for the top travel team in the state as the top player, I really don't have a lot patients to wait our turn. I maybe the "idiots" parent like "Justbaseball" mantioned, but for my son's future, I will talk to the coaches about it and I will let my son transfer if he has to play with the freshman team.

I keep my finger crossed and I wish the coach make the right decision.

Good luck BBKing. I hope your son's talent matches your initiative.

On a related note, there is a kid from Illinois who is going to AZ State who has never played a game in HS. Jackson I believe.

quote:

Yes, its certainly true that there are 'idiot' HS coaches...just like there are 'idiots' in the general population. Our older son experienced an 'idiot' or two in HS (along with some good guys) and our younger son is experiencing the antithesis of idiot.

But some of these 'idiots' behave as they do because of 'idiots' running summer or travel ball teams...or even moreso, 'idiot parents' who think their son IS an "elite" player from an "elite" travel team, and therefore that translates into "must-be-a-star" at his HS.

We've all either witnessed or heard about the parent who makes an appointment with the HS coach and his AD to "discuss" how their son should be/must be a starter on varsity as a freshman because he's a superstar on his "travel elite team" that won 13 trophies this past summer.

Justbaseball nails another angle of the arguement quite well. Travel ball is way too full of people just like described above. You see, the problem isn't high school coaches or travel ball coaches, the problem is IDIOTS.And they are easily found if you just take a moment to look for them.

Everyone, no matter where you come down on this topic, is a little bit different. I could get on my soapbox and go on for too long about this and a few other choice topics, but you'd all fall asleep or decide that if I'm not an idiot, I might be a lunatic. Instead, I'll simply say this. Everyone needs to make an effort to be better, no matter whether you're on the high school, club or parent side. Make excellence the goal. Make helping the kids the goal, not helping one's self.

One of my big pet peeves is somewhat similar to this issue we've been debating, and that is the 'seminar, clinic, showcase or camp' business that has really taken off the last few years. While many of these are good, worthwhile and run by quality people; there are also way too many that are run simply as another profit center for people more interested in their own well being, as opposed to the players and parents they draw in. Earlier, I alluded to a seminar that we ran last weekend that had a group of highly respected pros as speakers. The biggest part of our motivation for doing that was to 'give back', but there was another angle at work too. That other angle was to poke some of these promoters in the eye by doing this for free, and opening it to the general public. We couldn't think of a better way to give people a reason to not sign up for some of these seminars than getting better speakers and making it free. I'm saying this for one reason - I wish more people would do this around the country. Why does it always have to be about the almighty dollar for some, and ego for others? I will say this, the only reason those pros decided to do this, is because they knew that nobody was going to make a dime off of it, and that the only people who would get anything out of it would be the kids and parents who came to hear them.

We need more people who'll take that approach.

Once again, not to endorse anything. The solution is to work together or at least not get in the way. Both sides should be guided by what is best for the players.

The way I understand this issue is all about the 10-12 months. I'm not sure what is going on, but have been told that some HS coaches are telling kids that if they do anything other than what they are told (during the off season) they will be punished. I've been told that this has already happened in some cases. That doesn't seem right to me.

The other side, is when the people involved in these additional off season baseball activities attempt to disregard the high school coach and his wishes during the high school season. This is even more wrong!

So both sides have drawn a line in the sand! To me the very best is when all kids give 100% to the high school program during high school baseball season. Never should a kid miss a high school game to attend another baseball event without the HS coaches blessing. Then during the rest of the year the other baseball opportunities have proven to be very helpful to baseball players. It seems that during that time, high school coaches should try to work with those type programs rather than against them. That is if everyone believes that both high school baseball and baseball outside of the high school season is a good thing. I'm not sure all people on either side are looking at this the right way. On the other hand, I think most people on both sides of the issue, do see the light.

We live in Iowa. Many parents have asked us to put together a national team of the top players in the state for the big summer events. Iowa plays their high school season in the summer rather than spring. Iowa kids do not see or compete against the best national competition when most other states do, in the summer. This puts the Iowa players behind from a recruiting and a developmental stand point. Years ago we started a spring and fall wood bat league for the top players in Iowa. It is heavily scouted and nearly every Iowa high school player that has been drafted or played DI baseball has come out of this league. Yet, there are a few high school coaches who have told their players they want them to compete in their local Babe Ruth or other leagues. We never have given any serious consideration to putting together an Iowa summer team because it would hurt Iowa High School Baseball. We are never going to do that, ever!

I agree 100% with “justbaseball” and others who say high school baseball is perhaps the most important of all to protect. It’s not a matter of what is best or who is an idiot. When kids are young they play in all kinds of different leagues. As they get older there are many different organizations for kids to play baseball. USSSA, AAU, AABC, WWBA, CABA, etc. Some kids go on to play college and/or professional baseball, most don’t. Some continue playing in any of the many opportunities that exist. There is ONLY one constant, only one place that all but a very few baseball players have all experienced. Only one true institution in all of baseball that is shared by almost everyone who has been talented enough to take their ability to the next level. Yes, that one institution is in fact HIGH SCHOOL BASEBALL. It doesn’t have to be the best for everyone, but it is the most important!

Here is exactly what I endorse!

Seems like the answer sounds too simple for those not directly involved. People whether they are involved in high school baseball or what happens outside of high school baseball, need to pull their head out of their A** and quit working against things that can be good for the kids who play the game. What ever happened to working together? No one is bigger than the game! There are some very good people on both sides of the fence. Those people need to take charge and do what is best for the kids and the game.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:

As I see it there are those out there that will destroy HS baseball in the name of doing "good things" for the talented players. If this takes hold in California and I see no reason that it won't, high school baseball will be effected from coast to coast border to border. This could be terrible for some while others reap rewards ---- rewards that in reality were destined for them wherever they played.

Fungo

I think this is an interesting discussion, and Fungo is right that some people will do things to better themselves regardless of the consequences. Just a fact of life. You are wrong however regarding this taking hold in California and replaceing HS baseball.

If you read the article carefully Mike’s league is for kids who did not make their team or were kicked off, or chose not to participate for some reason. Do not stretch this to this is going to ruin HS baseball and replace it. Doughnutman you are also wrong in saying this is the same thing as league ball getting replaced by travel. The dynamics are completely different. Here is why:

HS ball takes the best kids from the various leagues that feed into a program. A freshmen class has about 15 players that will make the team. (10-11 will play regularly) These are the best 15 from 2-3 leagues in an area. (maybe some travel kids also) From these 15 players you may have 2-5 that could be considered Varsity material who will move up and play significant minutes on the Varsity squad. (over the next 4 years) We are talking about very few kids here from a wide area.

When you get to play HS ball you get daily practice, and play 2-3 games per week essentially free. You will NEVER get this on any travel team unless you have lots of $$. So now you take the very few kids with the talent and now you are tying to get even fewer who have the $$. The numbers simple don’t add up to support it.

Not going to happen period end of story. Been a great discussion for nothing in my opinion.

S o c c e r is different as it as fringe sport, the most similar major sport is basketball and yes there are elite teams that play off season like baseball, but HS basketball is still the main event just like HS baseball is the main event.

quote:

Originally posted by bbking:
As a freshman's Dad, I am eager to find out if my son can make the JV, I am not asking for Varsity spot, just JV will be fine for me. I heard JV is just a "honorable" team to put all those Juniors and Seniors who can't never play Varsity and save face. Is that true? If that's the case I might be disappionted.

The reason I want my freshman son to play JV is because I saw the miserable talent level of the freshman team. I don't want my kid to be dragged down with them. Having been playing for the top travel team in the state as the top player, I really don't have a lot patients to wait our turn. I maybe the "idiots" parent like "Justbaseball" mantioned, but for my son's future, I will talk to the coaches about it and I will let my son transfer if he has to play with the freshman team.

I keep my finger crossed and I wish the coach make the right decision.

At my son's high school freshman ball is where kid's rec ball careers go to die. The JV team is freshmen and sophomores who are prospects to play varsity in the future. There are also a few sophs and juniors who haven't figured out they're not likely in the future plans of the program. My son told me only one of last year's JV juniors have showed up for offseason workouts this year. The kid loves the game. He knows his place is on the bench. He'll get a uniform. He's a good cheerleader. This year varsity will have one soph starter, one on the bench who will get some playing time as a key backup and another in the bullpen.

Speaking of playing top level travel, my son struggled with the weak JV pitching as a freshman until he made some adjustments. Early in the season he was striding and opening up way too soon anticipating higher velocity. Fortunately the adjustments were good for his mechanics in any situation. The freshman team was unwatchable.

I want my son to play HS ball. My son wants to play HS ball. He is a freshman and he will play wherever the coaches put him. He will have the opportunity to work his way up the ladder. In my opinion, he has been working all these years to play for his HS. If things lead beyond that, that is great, but you need to take things one step at a time.

I guess we are fortunate that our HS coach wants kids to play at the highest level possible during the non-HS season. Whether that is for the HS summer team or on a high quality travel team. In fact his opinion is, if you can play on a high quality travel team, do it. If you are not playing on one, you can play on the HS summer team.

As I stated earlier, Triple Crown and USSSA (our two major travel organizations here in GA) do not even put on tournaments for 15u up during the HS season. I don't know where these outside HS teams would even play.

I agree completely with Coach May. HS coaches should worry about their players getting better regardless of where they do it. As far as those who say that the kids are not being team players by not playing on the HS summer team. I just don't agree with that at all. A player has an obligation to get themselves better in order to help the team accomplish it's goals. If the kid is playing on the HS team during the HS season, they are being a team player.

At least around here, a travel team would never even think of doing something during the HS season. In fact most of the teams work out the month of January to get the kids ready to tryout for the HS team, then do nothing at all till the HS season is over. No conflicts, no problem. HS is still king. At least from the travel/club side. I have heard of HS coaches putting pressure on kids to play for them during the summer, thank god our coach is not one of them.

quote:

I maybe the "idiots" parent like "Justbaseball" mantioned, but for my son's future, I will talk to the coaches about it and I will let my son transfer if he has to play with the freshman team.

If your son is that good you let his talent to the talking in tryouts. If you attempt to influence the coach your son may be temporarily assigned to the freshman team so you understand who's in charge of evaluating talent.

quote:

Originally posted by bbking:
I agree with "theEH"

"But talented players are going to seek the toughest competition."

JV may not be the best team, but at least they play the long schedule as the Varsity team. 16 games for the freshman team is about 2 weeks of work at our travel team. How could my son improve his skill with that kind of play time?

Let’s see, how could a freshman improve his skills….If he is the top player in the state, I would say that he will probably see every inning of those 16 games. If he is on JV or Varsity, maybe about the same amount of innings.

Then he could do extra work in the cages, extra fielding and more long toss. Throw in some weight room work and speed/agility training and I think he could probably fill up that time quite nicely at this stage of the game.

However, if he is already the number #1 player in the state he probably already does all that stuff and should make varsity. However, the 80 – 120 AB’s in high school are probably not as important developmentally as the 150 – 200 AB’s on the top travel team against other close to the top teams in the state and at national tournaments.

And if he is a pitcher, freshman pitching is pitching in my opinion. Trying to throw mechanically correct in competitive situations. When you are a Junior/Senior trying to get recruited – is when it makes a difference facing top level hitting.

Then there is always making sure he achieves the best possible grades he can get.

My guess is that you are setting yourself up for a very dissatisfying couple of years, unless you live in SOCAL and have access to that club program. Then you won’t need to post here on the HIGH SCHOOL BASEBALL forum, then your son's future/playing time can be mapped out to your liking.

quote:

With the short HS season and if you got an "idiot" coach, he may not relaize your son's talent before the season is over. That will be totally wasting your time to play HS ball.

bbking - I see you are new to this site and I do truly hope you stick around and continue to post.

But I just do not, just do not agree with this comment at all. Even the "idiots" we've run across in HS and travel ball get this part right 99% of the time within the first 5 or 6 games.

Again, I hope you stick around. Don't mean to make you feel unwelcome at all. Sorry if I did.

quote:

Originally posted by bbking:
one more problem, Can the HS coach ID the talent before they see the kids play in the real game? I have serious doubt about it. I watched several camps and open gyms the HS coaches ran. I noticed they are more focus on the physical make up of the players other than the true talent. In the travel team you at least have 80+ games to prove your self-worthness. With the short HS season and if you got an "idiot" coach, he may not relaize your son's talent before the season is over. That will be totally wasting your time to play HS ball.

Did your son attend a middle school in the same school district? If so, I'll guess the coach isn't completely ignorant of your son's ability. It appears you're assuming the high school coach is a moron until he proves otherwise by placing your son on at least the JV team.

Our high school coach knew the talent coming up from the middle school. Even though none of them made varsity, three freshman were allowed to try out for varsity. It gave him idea of how far away they were from competing on that level. I expect all three to make varsity this year. One may begin the season on JV.

quote:

That's great, then they have 5-6 games to prove they are not "idiots". BTW, if you like to call out "idiot" parents, You should let people call out the "idiots" coaches. It goes both ways.

Go re-read my posts (carefully) and you will see that I did just that.

Good luck to your son.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
They want more in the off season. They want more instruction , instruction from other coaches , better competition , play with like minded players that have the same goals and aspirations as they do. But they have to play for the HS coach in the summer , or else. Boy , what a load of you know what.

When my son was 10 years old I asked a kid why he was pitching out of the "stretch" intead of the "wind-up". He looked at me and answered quite frankly, both my trainer and pitching coach told me to.

This is in LoCal. There are incredible opportunities for kids to be exposed to high level training and instruction. And kids are dedicated.The problem is, it becomes a mini arms race. Johnny is now being trained by ex mlb guy, the words gets out so everybody ramps up. Why... Because your kid wants to play HS baseball. And you support this through instruction, travel teams, tournaments etc., because you want your kid to be in the baseball gang, instead of the goth gang or skateboard gang. Unfortunately when the baseball gang gets to HS there's 50 really good kids trying out for the frosh team. And the coach needs 20. There are HS teams in the area that maintain 30+ kid rosters and there legit.

I think what ABD is doing is terrific, It's allowing kids play and develope. As a freshman my son attended a school that required he play with his HS team during summer, for whatever reason, I believe it was monetary. He transfered to another school where the coach refers kids to elite travel ball clubs during the summer and fall so they can develope their skills.

The coaches that feel threatened by the introduction of spring club teams, should take a closer look at their program and what they have to offer. Competition is good.

quote:

If my son have to play with the freshman team, you know IMHO they are totally "idiots", I will not waste 4 years in the HS. Is that fair enough?

Does the school have a history of placing freshmen who don't make varsity on the JV team or do they all play freshman ball? If they all get assigned to freshman ball, what's the big deal for one year? It wouldn't be a matter of the coach being a moron. It would be a matter of policy. He'll get daily reps. Your son would get on the radar screen and develop his game with the travel team in the summer. Then if he's that good he's a candidate to make varsity his soph year. I'm not sure why you're so concerned about his future if he's so good. Talent will prevail.

BOF,
I read the article carefully and here are the main points I found:

"An Inland man with hefty influence in amateur baseball has formed a club league that could, if successful, compete directly with high school baseball by poaching its most promising athletes.

The league -- said to be the first of its kind -- will take place in the spring and provide an alternative opportunity for players dissatisfied with the high school baseball experience, said Mike Spiers, the league's founder."

Poaching the most promising players!!
Provide an alternative for players "dissastisfied" with high school. Of course that should also include parents dissatisfied with the high school coach, playing time, stats and all the other things we know exist.
I find the article and effort in a range of feelings from discomforting to appalling.
At a time when we need to recognize being more of a community and less "I" we see more of an effort to emphasize "I" and not the community.
To illustrate my point:
Our son's high school coach was strong on discipline and rules and it did not matter who was involved. In their senior year, a top player/pitcher began to show senior tendencies.
One day, he and another senior were late for practice. They made it worse by then hiding behind a dugout until they had a chance to blend in.
Of course the coach knew.
He suspended them for 5 days and one game.
One player accepted the decision. He ended up having a career season.
The other player and his parents fought the "injustice." They got him reinstated. The next day he violated another school rule of leaving campus. Baseball was the least of his issues.
With what I see being proposed, that kid who jacked practice, his teammates and the school can now head over and play for the Club team.
This is a wrong answer, in my view. These are some of the issues with Mr.Spier's approach. They are not the only ones, just some of them.
In my view, there is no experience like high school and high school baseball. NONE.
I read many, many posts on this board about parents who are doing things "only" to get their son the ability to get better by playing against the best.
Why...scholarship!!
What happened to playing high school baseball for fun? What happened to sports being fun?
Why do they need to be done with a goal other than competing and loving the game and competition?
If Mr. Spiers were to limit his efforts to providing a baseball experience limited to those who get cut and cannot play for their high school, well, we can talk about that.
That isn't what he intends to do according to what he tells the reporter.
Reading between the lines, this sounds very much like money as the goal. The reason or the "tool" in getting to that goal, as we too often see, is kids.
Seems to me if Mr Spiers is successful, we will all be posting on the "Club Baseball Website" and won't that be a shame.

bbking - I am not as inclined to be as understanding as justbaseball. I am getting this sense that you like to get into people's faces. We understood your points the first time you made them. We are not a confrontational type message board. If you are looking for confrontation, please post somewhere else.

I hope your son lives up to your lofty expectations btw.

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

Poaching the most promising players!!
Provide an alternative for players "dissastisfied" with high school.

What happened to playing high school baseball for fun? What happened to sports being fun?

When did having options and choices become a bad thing?

Lets say Mr Speirs is able to cull 5 studs from a HS team, For whatever reason. Has that not opened up 5 spots on the roster.

Pretty sure you still need to be on the team to have fun.

quote:

Originally posted by bbking:
RJM, it's the "untold" policy of this HS. "Freshman if not making the varsity team will have to play in the freshman team for one year." They've been doing this for serveral years now. I don't know if they will make an exception this time. I was just feeling sick when I was watching the incoming freshmen playing baseball. It maybe as you called "unwatchable".

The reason I called it unwatchable is our high school's good freshmen play JV. No, freshman ball won't be like travel ball. But all the future varsity players from his class will be on the team. It's the beginning of the bonding as teammates process. It's also his first step onto the radar screen.

I just realized where this is all headed. Open your mind and extrapolate. Ask yourselves why our 14U and 16U teams go to baseball rich areas of the world and bash other teams brains out. Hell, these other countries are lucky to play a competitive game against our young guys. Have these other countries best players, in these age groups, already signed pro contracts locally or with MLB in some cases? Didn't the Giants or A's sign a 16 year old dude from south of the border to a million dollar plus contract?
I've heard about a kid out of Vegas that is a 2011 guy, that would be drafted by MLB right now if he were eligible. If this guy is on a team with a bunch of other phenoms playing a team of other phenoms ESPN would pick it up in a heartbeat. Just like they have Pop Warner Football, the LLWS, National Youth pitch putt and chip contests...need I go on. Stop me if I've completely lost it. Now you have to know where I'm headed. Why let the Pro-Travel Club Association make the cash. Sign that 15 year old from Vegas to a multi-year deal before MLB gets his hands on him. If he were my kid and and the system (NCAA,LLWS,Max Preps,UTube,My Space) is going to make a bundle on him before he blows up, he should share in the revenue. I've got to believe the ABD guy has a dream. Think about it, these are entertainment dollars...the Olsen Twins (I could name dozens) are worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
Maybe I'm nuts, but the world was flat once to.

Here's why this spring league has a shot. A post from another board .......

My HS son's baseball team has a new coach for this year. His qualifications for the job appear to be ok. He played college ball for a good program and played on a world champion Legion team from the area. Here is the problem. My son is a pitcher and he has been working all winter with a pitching coach who is very good and he has made some really big improvements. His velocity is up a lot over last summer and his breaking balls are working very well and his strike ratio is much improved. a lot of this is due to a very big is a change he has made in his delivery. He worked very hard to develop it and the pay off has been well worth the time he has spent. His pitching coach and others who have seen him throw expect good things from him this season.

Now his new coach steps into the picture. He watched my son throw basically for the first time at practice this week and has told my son he wants him to change his delivery. He wants him to change his wind-up and change his stride and do something different with his leg kick on release. He also wants him to stop working with his pitching coach so he can only pitch during practice with the HS.

My son, not wanting to make it appear to this coach that he isn't listening and isn't coachable tried to make the changes he said he wants him to do. The result was a drop in his velocity and less control of pitch location along with what he described as a tightening in his elbow. Needless to say I was beside myself with what the coach is trying to do. What was worked on so hard during the winter and had made such a big difference is trying to be torn down by the guy. He was a catcher his entire playing time so while he is used to catching pitchers he doesn't have any experience pitching.

Another pitcher on the team who is an underclassman has been taking pitching lessons from an ex-professional pitcher and before he started to throw for this coach he was told to forget everything he was told about pitching and only listen to him.

Not sure if this guy is on an ego trip or what but the problem is that he is the coach and my son is afraid that if he doesn't do what the guy wants his playing time will be affected. Son is at the age where it is time to start getting noticed if he performs well enough and the changes that coach is wanting to make will only hurt how well he pitches.

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:

quote:

Originally posted by infielddad:

Poaching the most promising players!!
Provide an alternative for players "dissastisfied" with high school.

What happened to playing high school baseball for fun? What happened to sports being fun?

When did having options and choices become a bad thing?

Lets say Mr Speirs is able to cull 5 studs from a HS team, For whatever reason. Has that not opened up 5 spots on the roster.

Pretty sure you still need to be on the team to have fun.

By the word "cull" would we be talking about "recruiting?" So, by advocating for "choices," would we also then be advocating in favor of "recruiting" for 14-17 year olds?
Bob Howdeshell started the HSBBW. The HSBBW has become a baseball community with a common bond at it's core...high school baseball.
I don't dismiss that value or underestimate these bonds and community.
If I compare and contrast, it is far more important to be playing high school baseball,to be with my peers, to be part of my high school community.
Being "culled" as a "stud" by Mr. Spiers is a value I don't endorse as it seems to be largely about "I" and nothing about "team" when the latter is what sports should be about at those ages, in my view.

I'm amazed by some of the scenarios posted to this thread. 50 freshmen trying out for the team... 2-3 travel teams all attending the same high school... what are kids supposed to do who don't make the team? Sounds like there's a need for this type of opportunity in SoCal, questions of money, attitudes of coaches, etc., not withstanding.

At my son's middle school, he was one of 4 travel baseball players -- in the entire school!

LHPMom