Club vs. High School baseball, next round

quote:

Originally posted by playfair:
ClevelandDad, I just could not disagree with you more.

Every kid that wants to play deserves to.

I am just going to stand on that statement.

If he took your sugguestion of "Go find something else to do." Well, he would not start off very good at that either. Might as well spend his time getting better at something his heart is in.

playfair - I respect your opinion.

If you are saying that every kid who wants to play baseball in a summer rec league ought to be given the chance, then I agree with you. If you are saying that every kid who wants to be on the high school team deserves to, then we disagree. If you are saying a seperate club league should be formed for all those kids who are cut from the high school team, we still disagree. It is ok to disagree here on the hsbbweb

Should all kids who want to be valedictorian be given that chance? What is achievement in our society? If everyone is made the same, what is left for achievement? Everyone has equal opportunity to tryout in our society but there should not be a guarantee of a result imho.

quote:

If you are saying a seperate club league should be formed for all those kids who are cut from the high school team, we still disagree.

CD,
Just out of curiousity... What would you have against that? Seems like a good thing to me... strictly from a baseball perspective. Besides, there really are late bloomers!

How could more kids playing baseball be a bad thing for baseball or the kids?

From the article I got the feeling that Mike was not looking for the kid who got cut, ot the kid with bad grades. It seems the intent is not to rehab the kid who has been socially lost, or to develop a non-prospect. For whatever personal reasons, he wants pro prospects. It does look like a chess move in a battle between HS and club for power rights. Which posses the question, What is best for ALLthe kids? Don't we have enough classes in society already that makes the "lowers" feel less adaquet? IMHO you do not use the school system as your player pool and then compete against the school for those players.

My opinion would be to follow the Junior Hockey solution. HS kids who want to play at the next level would leave their schools and move to a small town that has a Junior baseball team and go to school in those towns or be tutored. Their schedule is to play within the Junior baseball League. The key to this is "out of sight, out of mind" and in the end you have no "my team/your team" distractions within the HS.

However when I sit back and take off the blinders maybe this is an unintentional positive service to the baseball community. Whether it be looking for alternative fuels, or a better mouse trap, someone has to stick their neck out to give it a try. When all the results are counted you will end up either the super-hero of the sacrificial lamb, but, at least someone gave it a try. However with tests like you are better off not injecting personal vendettas into the equation.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Coach May,

I can't tell you how much I respect you and all the other high school coaches like you. High School baseball would last forever, and be even better, if everyone shared your thoughts.

There has never been a question about what comes first with you.

I have always agreed with Coach May's views on this topic. The two can happily coexist and really ought to compliment each other. There is no substitute for high school baseball. At the same time, summer league provides opportunities that hs baseball cannot. IMHO, I don't like the term elite in baseball. I think egos often get in the way. You get an egotistical high school coach who wants to control the summer time like an autocrat, then that is a problem. You get an egotistical travel team guy who thinks he knows more than the high school guy, well that can be a problem too. The solution is for high school to control the athlete's focus in the spring and then for the high school coach to trust the athlete in the summer time. He'll see the results the following spring.

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:
Truly amazing!!! As I read your list I could not think of one kid that has not played TB at one point in his life. What a stastical anomally that your son's HS Varsity team has 8. That's quite a collection of rec ball prepped talent.

dswan: Simple fact is that they were the best athletes at that point in time and it did not matter where they came from. My point is that TB is OK, but is does not guarantee anything. As an example, I am quite familiar with the ABD program. It is great, however they have a top team, the Bulldogs, with some truly exceptional talent and then a bunch of other teams that are average and I have seen regular HS teams beat them in tournaments. Parents get attracted because they think because their son plays for ABD, or any other program, that will guarantee a spot on their HS team. It won’t, the best athletes are going to play. Don’t get me wrong it won’t hurt, but it is not necessary for success.

I certainly see PGStaff’s point regarding scouts wanting to only go to PG events. Why not? Makes their life a lot easier. Our center fielder counters that point completely, he is consistently the best athlete on the field and has never played TB and has never been to a PG event. He was an early commit to a D1 and the programs that were interested in him came and watched him play HS or local summer ball.

Like Fungo I am done with this subject, but I am a strong believer in kids playing multiple sports, playing in their community. I would caution parents that spending a lot of money, taking their kids out of their community, and uprooting their family life by dragging little Johnny from TB tournament to TB tournament weekend after weekend will not make any difference. Save your money and enjoy life.

I am also concerned about the dollars influencing the sport negatively. I don’t know what the answer is, but replacing HS ball with some other “private league” certainly won’t change a thing.

quote:

CD,
Just out of curiousity... What would you have against that? Seems like a good thing to me... strictly from a baseball perspective. Besides, there really are late bloomers!

That is a good point and perhaps I misunderstood playfair's position. If you are suggesting a privately funded club league, then I would generally not have a problem with it. If you are suggesting the public should fund the league, then that is what I was mostly objecting to. If you are suggesting the club league recruits the high school players, then I also have a problem with it.

It seems we always have some connection, even in a small way, to many of the most controversial topics here.

This is an absolute great thread IMO. Everyone is speaking and thinking. Most of us don't know if this could possibly be a good or a bad thing (including yours truly).

This is a great example of the HSBBW in action. I hope no one gets too personal about anything here and ruins this thread, but I think everyone's opinion is very important on this topic. I'd even like to hear what scouts, college coaches, instructors and most of all... what other high school coaches and travel/club coaches think about all of this.

quote:

I certainly see PGStaff’s point regarding scouts wanting to only go to PG events. Why not? Makes their life a lot easier.

BOF,
Just to be clear... I didn't say that and it wouldn't mean much if I did! That was taken from a book quoting a Major League Scouting Director.

PG - Thats a good summary and if it all turns out that way it will all be fine.

But here's the problem...the "elephant in the room" that I know is there because I have kids that span this age group.

Lets just say I'm a parent of a pretty good ballplayer. Super duper all star in t-ball...travel ball by age 9/10...elite travel ball to Cooperstown, EC and AAU by age 12 (and doing well in those things)...and oh, did I mention I'm the coach (well, really assistant coach...I hired a former college stud to "coach" MY team)? And did I mention the kids on my travel elite team just love me?...cause I've done this before and without saying it, they all think I know the road to a college scholarship for THEIR son

Now my son gets to HS...oh, and I sent him to the private school with 18 consecutive district championships because Junior is such a stud he needs this kind of competition. And I talked 7 or 8 other kids from my travel elite team into going there too cause we're gonna add 4 more of those banners in the gym. Doesn't matter to us that the varsity is crowded...6, 7 returning college prospects.

Tryouts come...but Oops!, only 1 or 2 of my super elite travel ball kids made the varsity and my son wasn't one of them. Some of it has to do with talent evaluation, some with maturity, some with where the coach thinks playing time resides for these fine young players and some with the coach's knowledge (since he's a teacher at the school) about the kids' need to settle down academically...but nonetheless, MY SON did not make the varsity...he's on the freshman team. Guess what I'm thinking? "The coach is an idiot!" (Read previous posts by others in this thread!)

So I surf the internet...pick up the paper and read about this guy who runs a super-special travel ball outfit (I've heard of him...in fact, part of my "path" to a college scholarship was to get my son to this guy eventually). Oh, and this guy can give MY SON varsity-level play as a freshman without another tryout cause he'll just take my whole team into his league...cause he's a good guy and doesn't have time to question whether or not I'm telling him the truth about my son's HS team situation, maturity level or other factors...and I told him my son's HS coach is an idiot because of this and that...well then, he must be an idiot.

BINGO!

Now I move 6 or 7 good (future varsity) ballplayers from my own travel elite team who didn't make varsity either...I recruited another 6 or 7 from other HS's...also now OUT of HS baseball and into this league too. And it was all very easy because the guy running the league has a great track record, he has "connections" and he gives ME and all my fellow parents EXACTLY what we wanted...varsity baseball, away from the "idiot" HS coach...and I get what I wanted all along anyways...complete control.

Don't think this will not happen? I know parents who are already planning it if it becomes available. Thats all it needs to become ...available. And it didn't matter one bit whether or not the guy who started it was a good guy or not...whether his intentions were golden or not. Its all about (some) parents need for control and others' willingness to follow the leader.

Cynical? Yes. But also based on a fair number of conversations with the type of parents I described above.

quote:

If you are suggesting the club league recruits the high school players, then I also have a problem with it.

I am not suggesting that! In fact, I've already stated (in this thread) that I am absolutely against that!

justbaseball,

Cynical? Maybe

On the other hand, you laid that scenario out very well and I think it gives people something serious to think about. My brain hurts!

ClevelandDad, glad to see your last post clarifying your position. While I don't think every kid should find a spot on the HS team, every kid - or adult should have an opportunity to play somewhere at some level. That is why there are adult softball leagues out there. For those of us older guys who still love the game. Should we be allowed a spot on a MLB roster just because we want to play? No way. Same with the kids. Should everyone make the HS team just because they want to play? No way. But, they should be able to play somewhere at some level if they want.

I'm not saying this to defend or promote this ABD thing, but I don't like the idea or statement that if you can't play at a certain level, you should just not play which it sounded like you were saying earlier.

PG, I agree with you that a kids involvement in sports should not be used as a punishment. My father did that to me when I was in HS with football. Banned me from playing the next season because I did not meet his standard of grades. He later changed his mind, but I got stubborn and did not do it to spite him. My problem I know, but it does happen.

People have encouraged me to tell my son if he does not get a certain set of grades that I should take baseball from him because he is so passionate about it that it may motivate him. I have refused to do that because I feel that if I take that passion from him, he may never get it back. Might not be for everyone, but I do feel strongly about it. If he becomes ineligible for the HS team due to grades, I will support it, but I will not hold it over his head as a way to punish him.

quote:

The solution is for high school to control the athlete's focus in the spring and then for the high school coach to trust the athlete in the summer time. He'll see the results the following spring.

ClevelandDad,
Some HS coaches are inexperienced and just don't know how different the level of play is in the summer and the benefits of playing in national tournaments and showcases, and just resent players not making all their summer games; some are "old school" and don't want to know, and make the threats that posters have mentioned. We have both kinds around here. I don't know of any in our county or district that wholeheartedly support summer travel ball.

Regardless, all I can say is I'm glad there's nothing like this in FL yet (that I know of). There is only one reason that I am glad about this. The HS season gives my pocketbook a break so I can save up for summer! But I believe this kind of thing is probably coming in FL, too. Hopefully after 2011.

We always ask the question, If there was no baseball.
Would you still be happy at the school.

Well if there was no HS team to play on.
Would you still play baseball?

EH

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Some interesting thoughts in this thread...

LHPMom2012 said:
[QUOTE]what are kids supposed to do who don't make the team?

Find something else to do imho.

playfair said:

quote:

but every kid that wants to play deserves to.

No they don't imho.
"Should every girl who wants to be on the cheerleading team be allowed or only those who have won the position through competition and gymnastic achievement? We can go on and on..."

ClevelandDad,
Then eliminate minor league baseball, those guys haven't made it to the big leagues (and I can go on and on). You are right there are plenty of disappointing moments in life, but why should a kid give up his dream or hobby (that if nothing else provides needed physical activity) because a coach sez so.
With whats happened with kids school class ages, there are kids on my son's varsity team that are two years older than he is. I sent him to 1st grade when he was eligible to go. I gave no thought to keeping him in pre school for an extra year so he would be more competitive in HS sports. Had he not made the team his Jr year (it was close) as a young 16 year old, he would have been looking at a lost season. We don't have a travel ball season during the HS season where I live, but it would have come in handy. At age 17 he has had plenty of real life moments to learn from.

Lots of hand wringing. Why don't y'all let it play out and observe the results? I see the spirit of entrepreneurship. If this idea fills a need, it will succeed. If not, this will be forgotten in a couple years.

dbg_fan, Now your just being reasonable.

There will be none of that here on the HSBBW.

EH

quote:

justbaseball quote:
But here's the problem...the "elephant in the room" that I know is there because I have kids that span this age group.

How do you guys in the "hotbed" areas do it? I'm serious when I say that. So many options, so many issues, and so many opportunities to deal with. I feel like I live in Hicksville, USA. Our biggest issue is who's taking and picking up all those kids to the LL field for daily pick-up games and hr derbies.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
dswan: Simple fact is that they were the best athletes at that point in time and it did not matter where they came from. My point is that TB is OK, but is does not guarantee anything. As an example, I am quite familiar with the ABD program. It is great, however they have a top team, the Bulldogs, with some truly exceptional talent and then a bunch of other teams that are average and I have seen regular HS teams beat them in tournaments. Parents get attracted because they think because their son plays for ABD, or any other program, that will guarantee a spot on their HS team. It won’t, the best athletes are going to play. Don’t get me wrong it won’t hurt, but it is not necessary for success

I am also concerned about the dollars influencing the sport negatively. I don’t know what the answer is, but replacing HS ball with some other “private league” certainly won’t change a thing.

Agreed. There are those who drink the kool-aid and follow their baseball guru in hopes of reaching the promised land (HS baseball) and the sacrifices made by a family in time and lining the coaches pocket can be huge. I hear the word "elite" thown around quite a bit. When I think of an "elite" TB in the purest sense. I see a team comprised of top talent from a region, limited to paying maybe tounrnament fees at the most, if at all. Believe me those kids will make their HS team. Over the years I've come think of HS baseball not unlike spring training, get in shape, have fun, work towards a common goal. In preparation for the summer and fall battles.

Replacing HS baseball no chance, as long as there are kids trying out.

Here are some local scenarios where a kid would benefit from this non-HS league.

1. We have two top HS golfers that are also very good baseball players. The kids have to choose between the two HS spring sports, yet at 15 or 16, there is no way to determine which sport gives them the best chance to play at the next level. There are also several volleyball players and several track stars that have chosen not to play baseball. These great athletes could play in this club baseball league. A local ex-MLB star in our town says he did not know baseball was his sport until his senior year. He went through high school thinking he was a basketball player.

2. I happen to agree that kids with grade problems would greatly benefit from this league. Many people have great success in life without a college career and even sometimes without graduating from high school. I also feel that kids that may have dabbled in pot or alchohol in their teens can put that behind them and turn into great people, maybe even future presidents. Having something to focus on like baseball can be just what they need to pull them away from the partying.

3. Sometimes a kid and a coach or a parent and a coach just can't work things out. Our coach is old school, you practice hard, you run from station to station, you only talk baseball on the field. Most kids love it, but some clash early with the coach and end up in the doghouse. Sometimes the bridges are burned and the kid quits. Now he matures a little and would like to play, but he's burned that HS bridge. I believe kids change a lot in their teenage years and deserve a second chance.

4. Some kids are home-schooled. In our area they are forced to hook up with a high school to play baseball past the age of 15. I know of at least two kids that stopped playing at 15 for this reason.

I'm not sure this is what this Spiers team has in mind, but I can see a possible need for kids in these situations.

I certainly hope that club ball, elite teams, etc.. never replace HS ball. Go Jacks son was fortuneate to play for a couple of the big name clubs as well as next level down clubs but they were never as fundamentally important to him as playing for his high school team. I would guess that any kid, from the one who signs with a top D1 program, to the one who knows his playing days are over at the end of his senior year, would say that playing for, and representing his high school were more important to him on a personal level than playing for a club team. My son has his high school letters framed and hanging on his wall, not the tournament trophies he got during the summer.

I have heard some stories about conflict with regards to HS coaches and summer/fall ball in the DFW area. Not enough though to think there is cause for concern. But I am not the most wired in guy with regards to what is going on so I may be completely off target.

quote:

Originally


Now I move 6 or 7 good (future varsity) ballplayers from my own travel elite team who didn't make varsity either...I recruited another 6 or 7 from other HS's...also now OUT of HS baseball and into this league too. And it was all very easy because the guy running the league has a great track record, "connections" and he gives ME and all my fellow parents EXACTLY what we wanted...varsity baseball, away from the "idiot" HS coach...I and get what I wanted anyways...complete control.

Don't think this will not happen? I know parents who are already planning it if it becomes available. Thats all it needs to become ...available. And it didn't matter one bit whether or not the guy who started it was a good guy or not...whether his intentions were golden or not. Its all about (some) parents need for control and others' willingness to follow the leader.

Cynical? Yes. But also based on a fair number of conversations with the type of parents I described above.

I'm confused how does MS program differ from the family who moves within the county or state to better position their athlete in whatever sport. And yes the parent may get exactly wants, complete control. So what. The player moves on and becomes a 1st round draft pick or he falls on his A$$ because his parents did not allow him to compete, fail and think for himself.

The world needs ditch diggers too.

quote:

Here are some local scenarios where a kid would benefit from this non-HS league.

It has to be determined if the club level is pointed toward competitivness or a way to play in a rec environment. Is it fair to those who are giving 100% competitive play to have to rely on teammates using it as an escape or still not willing to give 100% to the team. A nice day for baseball is a great day for golf, which would they do on any given day?

Potentially I think we're looking at two different ends of the spectrum, both of which would require two vastly different types of coaches, and different sets of program goals.

btw- I don't know about other areas but our home schooled kids can participate with HS teams within their school district.

quote:

Originally posted by Go Jacks!:
I certainly hope that club ball, elite teams, etc.. never replace HS ball. Go Jacks son was fortuneate to play for a couple of the big name clubs as well as next level down clubs but they were never as fundamentally important to him as playing for his high school team. I would guess that any kid, from the one who signs with a top D1 program, to the one who knows his playing days are over at the end of his senior year, would say that playing for, and representing his high school were more important to him on a personal level than playing for a club team. My son has his high school letters framed and hanging on his wall, not the tournament trophies he got during the summer. .

------------------------------------------------

Go Jacks,
My son is an example of just the opposite of what you state here. If given the choice he would, without a doubt choose the travel team. He has spent the last 3 summers traveling with basically same the kids. They have experienced new places and things together. They have become some of his best friends. Not to mention the baseball is better.

He is very friendly with the HS baseball players and has a lot of fun during the season, but he does not hang out with many of them. He looks forward to the school season to end so "real" (his word) baseball can start. I have heard other kids who have graduated from his school say the same thing. It's probably because of the way the hs team is coached and handled, but it is the case.

Not all kids have the same experiences or conditions at their high schools. If my son played for someone like coach May I'm sure he would feel differently.

fillsfan - My older son DID play in a HS program a lot like the one you describe...and he also played on a high level travel team that had tons of success.

He enjoyed both (for different reasons) and would not have picked one over the other. Both provided unique and valuable experiences...and he maintains good friends from both as well.

I see no reason for it to be pushed into a choice...by either side.

justbaseball, I agree their should be no reason to have to choose between the two. I strongly disagree with a coach on either side that would have a kid choose one or the other.

I sometimes think however that we, the parents, wax poetic about school ball but our kids may not feel the same way we do.

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
fillsfan - My older son DID play in a HS program a lot like the one you describe...and he also played on a high level travel team that had tons of success.

He enjoyed both (for different reasons) and would not have picked one over the other. Both provided unique and valuable experiences...and he maintains good friends from both as well.

I see no reason for it to be pushed into a choice...by either side.

Good post. That is exactly what my son is doing right now.
He enjoys both teams for different reasons.

ClevelandDad, I appreciate the level of respect in your post. Thanks for letting me clarify.

I did not say evey kid should make their hs team. I believe in taking lumps. My kid has taken plenty of them. And, he grew a competitive streak a mile wide because of them. Lumps are good.

The new league is good as well. It is good for any kid who wants to play in it for any reason they want to play in it.

High school coaches will work with who ever they have in front of them just fine. They will still win CIF Championships with or without what ever kid choses not to play for their hs.

The scenario put forth is already going on and it happens like this many times.

Dad has coached his son his entire life. He has several other players on the team he has coached for a long time as well. They have moved up from age bracket to age bracket and played together for many years. They all move to a certain HS that has a great rep for producing solid players for the next level. When they get to the HS they realize that the coaches are not going to play favorites and the kids start to get different opportunities based on their ability and the teams needs. The coaches son ends up playing on the JV. The #8 hitter / utility player thrives in this new environment because he has had to battle all along coming up with this group. He makes the varsity and the others do not. "How could Johnny make the varsity? He was our #8 hitter. He was not close in ba or obp with the other kids? This coach is an idiot. We need to move to ****** HS where the coaches will appreciate our kids ability and not play favorites!" This is already happening and has been happening.

There will always be people that seek out other opportunities for their kid when things do not go as planned. Of course we all know this never helps a kid in the long term. It usually ends up bad for the kid and the parents.

What I do have a problem with is the HS coach trying to strong arm his HS players. It is simply ridiculous imo. When a HS coach starts thinking that he owns his players 12 months out of the year. When he starts thinking that he can tell them who they are going to play with in the off season. When he punishes them in order to make the rest fall in line with his thinking. You end up with this type of situation. What needs to happen is someone with the authority needs to step in and put an end to these types of tactics.

The real problem here imo is the coaches that have stepped over the line. Get them back in line and you wont have to worry about things like this. I have always said I never worry about a kid wanting to transfer out of our program. Why would I want someone in our dugout that didnt want to be there. If you do things the right way you will have the right guys in the dugout. If you dont do things the right way dont blame people for trying to find someone that does.

Of course the scenario I laid out and the other scenario laid out happens. And those people will never be happy no matter where they go. Why? They are no longer coaching and making all the decisions.

In Nor Calif we have off-season hs baseball called Joe Dimaggio. We were told our son was expected to play for his hs team during the summer. But he preferred his American Legion Team because it was much touggher competition. We let him make the decision and he decided to stick with his AL team

That went directly to how he was treated by his hs coach. When it came time for consideration both during the season and in the post-season consideration for playing time and awards, etc., recruiting assistance his achievements were recognized by his TB teams eg., American Legion but not his hs. Did my son care? not one whit because he knew his hs coach was paying him back for not playing DiMaggio ball. Even after he graduated his hs coach was calling him and asking him to play Summer DiMaggio ball.

I can see how a hs coach might want to use his position to control the off-season activity if your son is not playing in a good baseball program, but I can't see where a coach should have a problem with a player who is playing in a strong TB program. After all, doesn't he get the benefit of the players increased experience and skills during the season?

As a result of this we found that coaches have their favorites and it will always be up to the parents to assist their son in the recruiting and college process beyond hs if he is to have any chance to play college BB. That's was our experience.

I think the more alternatives there are for players the better it will be for the players, and the hs coaches will have to consider that when setting team policies.

JMO

This discussion has certainly created a healthy debate.

Mike; as you know your "Spring Club" Team or teams
will be very costly to form and operate and it will be three years, before you will know if you have achieve your goals.

Have you considered placing your talents and energy
to creating a "Charter" school?

You could provide an education to the players, join a competitive league and continue to operate your summer programs.

The MLB Urban Academy was considering a "Charter"
school last year. With Compton College adjacent it is a wonderful solution.

Bob

quote:

“Poor” students are not always “Bad” people!

I agree with that 100%. I understand families that have problems and kids from poor families etc, and all those types of exceptions. But I will bet you that when these travel teams in the spring start to take off, the poor kids unless someone is footing the bill will still be left off these teams.
I guess my mindset is not just about exposure, money for college,maybe I would put my son on one if he got cut,I just have a hard time putting my mind around a lot of peoples mentality these days that everyone deserves something just because. Maybe thats why our country is in such a mess.
I know there are bad HS coaches out there,we were lucky.I just know what it was like when My sons team won their HS section, and the entire community was there,people who had played together since they were 5 in Tball,gone to school together,It was a most memorable experience and for myself it topped any tournament trophy he has won.

quote:

I just know what it was like when My sons team won their HS section, and the entire community was there,people who had played together since they were 5 in Tball,gone to school together,It was a most memorable experience and for myself it topped any tournament trophy he has won.

This story can be twisted to anyone's liking.

HS sports are a life experience.

If some baseball guy wants to provide an alternative for those cut, that's fine. If that same person wants to try and gut the HS experience for those who are on teams, i.e fishhawking them with false promises or better deals, then that is wrong.

And HS coaches who have the need to control players after the HS season need to explore the benefits of their players expanding their baseball horizons. Using any threats of HS rostering and playing time should be cause for dismissal and them finding another gig.

See, it ain't that difficult.

OldSlugger: I'm with you.

I have the same amount of respect for baseball coaches who try to bully kids in the offseason as I have for FOOTBALL coaches who bully kids during baseball season..... ZERO.

The one major problem I see is what is going to give the kids the drive to maintain their academics and stay eligible---playing outside of school does give that incentive

quote:

Dad has coached his son his entire life. He has several other players on the team he has coached for a long time as well. They have moved up from age bracket to age bracket and played together for many years. They all move to a certain HS that has a great rep for producing solid players for the next level. When they get to the HS they realize that the coaches are not going to play favorites and the kids start to get different opportunities based on their ability and the teams needs. The coaches son ends up playing on the JV. The #8 hitter / utility player thrives in this new environment because he has had to battle all along coming up with this group. He makes the varsity and the others do not. "How could Johnny make the varsity? He was our #8 hitter. He was not close in ba or obp with the other kids? This coach is an idiot. We need to move to ****** HS where the coaches will appreciate our kids ability and not play favorites!" This is already happening and has been happening.

Wow! Does this ever describe the situation my son just left as a player and I left as an assistant coach. The head coach's son dominated in LL. By freshman year of high school he's a part time outfielder and pitching very little. Yet on the travel team he pitches, plays third and bats in the middle of the order. The team was successful in spite of it. It caused a lot of grumbling among players and parents. Many players aren't back for 16U despite the team's success.

The kid was supposed to play Junior Legion at fifteen. The dad said the JL coach reniged on the JL/travel relationship agreement. I think dad saw the writing on the wall following freshman ball in the spring and yanked his kid from JL. Dad controls sonny's destiny for now.

My son was the player on the short end you described who prospered. He was one of the stats leaders but always batted low in the order because he was small until last season. This year my son is 6'1". The coach's son is still 5'9", an inch taller than LL.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Williams:

Have you considered placing your talents and energy
to creating a "Charter" school?

You could provide an education to the players, join a competitive league and continue to operate your summer programs.


Bob

Lots of good stuff in this topic, I think the above one of the best. Education should be first and not second. Some travel coaches around here will not even let you play on a travel team if you do not have good grades. Reason being most are for college exposure, you can't get into college without the GPA. So I am trying hard to figure out what's really going on in SoCal.

As far as I know here, most coaches encourage you to play the best competition, they know that it is not always found on a HS team. I have never heard of anyone being kicked off a team here in my area because they wouldn't play in off season with a coach, that coach could lose his job for that. I see that OS8 alluded to the same. Can thse coaches do whatever they wish? Who's minding the store? Anyone in Florida aware of any coach here that does that? The HS season is only a few short months and as far as I know one cannot play or practice with any team until their season ends. Those that don't make the team, use that time to prepare for summer travel teams or summer legion ball.

I also agree with something in CD's post, good thoughts. I think he said a lot of things others reading may be thinking. JMO.

One thing I don't understand, coaches want to win, why would they kick off the better players on the team because of MLB tryouts, good travel teams, showcases, etc? Are they allowed to play both HS and TB at the same time? Is this the issue that too much overlaps?

BTW, I don't get the stuff mentioned about "poor" kids, are there actually any deprived kids in SoCal? Is this league for the underpriveledged?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
The scenario put forth is already going on and it happens like this many times.

Dad has coached his son his entire life. He has several other players on the team he has coached for a long time as well. They have moved up from age bracket to age bracket and played together for many years. They all move to a certain HS that has a great rep for producing solid players for the next level. When they get to the HS they realize that the coaches are not going to play favorites and the kids start to get different opportunities based on their ability and the teams needs.

Just the opposite has happened at our high school. "Dad" and his coaches all got together, moved an entire travel team into the school (they had to forfeit their Summer season when they were busted for boundary violations)--kids that had been together for years--and convinced the h.s. coaching staff that these kids were better than any other players in their system.

The team of "super" kids went straight to JV their first year (skipped frosh ball) and straight to varsity the next. All the while, this "dad" and his group showered money, donated tractors to the program, etc.. seemingly good things unless it is done quid pro quo to get their kids an advantage of playing time.

The kids a year older than this group, during summer ball, were assigned 15 y.o. uniforms they dug out of an old closet, and given ONE coach who I think was a backup catcher in h.s. The super kids? Four coaches, new uniforms, a major-leaguer as an assistant coach, and double the number of games and travel. Most of the older kids dropped out of the baseball program.

So it cuts both ways, Coach May. If the program is honest, the "Dad" of the super-kids pulls his kids out of the h.s. and joins this new alternative to h.s. baseball. More often than not, however, in most programs they have infected h.s. baseball with politics, run players not in their clique out of the program, and some of these players -- with a desperate love of the game of baseball -- find salvation in joining this new alternative team.

There is no right answer. But for h.s. baseball to succeed, in the long-run, it needs to a) play the best players with no influence, and b) treat the kids with respect and allow them to better their game outside of the school season and not force them into playing just for the h.s. team. If h.s. baseball doesn't do these two things, IMHO it is going down a slippery slope.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by TPM

Lots of good stuff in this topic, I think the above one of the best. Education should be first and not second. Some travel coaches around here will not even let you play on a travel team if you do not have good grades. Reason being most are for college exposure, you can't get into college without the GPA. So I am trying hard to figure out what's really going on in SoCal. [Quote]

In LoCal within a five mile radius from my home there are 5 HS that represent apprx 12,000 kids. If you were to increase the radius to 10 -12 miles you could easily add an additional 15,000 kids. Bare in mind, two miles to the west is the pacific. High incomes and big mortgages are prevalent as well as disposable income. Lots of type "A" personalities.

As stated in past posts kids are afforded virtually any type of conditioning, hitting, fielding, pitching, instruction you can image, typically at a early age. This training runs the gamit from local college ball players to dozens of retired MLrs to any type of specialized conditiioning program you can think of. It's pretty common place to go down to the local batting cage and see a few MLrs watching their kids go through their paces. Or see the retired MLrs coaching their kids team. When your 12 years old sitting next to Trevor Hoffman watching his kid take bp, it's pretty cool. For better or worse playing MLB now seems a little closer.

Now blend all these ingredients together, add year round access to playing, combine that with a attitude of I'm not going to earn my spot I'm going to find my spot because I need reps at ss and I can find a team that will provide that from the dozens in the immediate area. Because they have a dream not play HS ball or College ball but to go as far as they can.

IMO this is who MS is looking for. The kids will not be bad students and will understand the importance of a solid GPA or kids cut from the HS team, they will be kids who are looking for the best possible instruction and to play in the most competitive league possible, year round in hopes that it will give them an edge in their quest to accomplish their goals.

And I endorse it... If that's what the player and the families want, go for it. It's no different than the gymnast, skater, etc.. dedicating their lives to a sport. Time will tell if it was the right decision. Yeah it's different and so was the first time a catcher decided that using a mask will probably O.K

In the mean time my kid gets a few more at bats on the HS team. And enjoys the balance between hsbb and TB, scout bb or what ever opportunity presents itself.

[Quote] One thing I don't understand, coaches want to win, why would they kick off the better players on the team because of MLB tryouts, good travel teams, showcases, etc? Are they allowed to play both HS and TB at the same time? Is this the issue that too much overlaps? [Quote]

I believe it's greed and ego. If a coach can charge $200.00 ea. a mo for his mandatory summer and fall program with 24 guys on the team, that adds up pretty quick.

Finally you cannot play HS bb and participate on a TB team during hsbb season. At least in LoCal

That's pretty much whats going on in LoCal. IMO.