Club vs. High School baseball, next round

I have brought this up before. HS is being treated more and more like rec ball in youth leagues. The reasons to stay in HS are the same to stay in rec ball. Play for your community. Play with your friends. It used to be that your HS coach was the only way to get to play past HS. It started and ended with him. Showcases, summer ball, and scout teams have made HS ball move down the list of importance. You have a whole generation of players and parents that skipped LL, CR, BR whatever to play travel. They are now coming into the HS system. Playing travel instead of HS isn't a hard decision if the cost and/or system makes you choose.

Everything changes.

I don't know the situation in So. Cal as to why they charge so much, But in North Ca. Bay Area, High schools Dist. charge $100 for first sport $75 for second and so on. Most of this fee is for transportation.
My question is in High School they are "Student Athletes" most of the players that were released were because of grades. Are the clubs going to use CIF rules of eligablity? If they don't what will keep the players from blowing off their grades and just play ball. My son's old high school coach required that each player show a progress report every other week to make sure their grades were above a minimim of 2.3 GPA and on line to graduate.

quote:

If baseball could be played under lights and start at 6-7PM

.... we would freeze to death for the first half of the season.

quote:

This leaves spots open on legion teams for kids who might not make the team if the travel kids stayed home. Thus developing these kids more for the HS team in the spring.

This is what I've been telling people who have ripped me for starting the first travel team that pulled players from the immediate local programs. The best players in our immediate area are now playing travel from 10U to 18U. Guess who advised the people starting the ensuing teams. What irony a dad who ripped me the hardest had his son in an 18U program last year due to lack of visibility in Legion.

It is sad to think that you would not be able to play with your high school...I understand budget cuts and wanting boys to play ball ...but there somethingspecial about playing with your high school. I agree with the statement about being a "Student Athletes "-How many good ball players are going to go to college without the grades.It will be interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I have brought this up before. HS is being treated more and more like rec ball in youth leagues. The reasons to stay in HS are the same to stay in rec ball. Play for your community. Play with your friends. It used to be that your HS coach was the only way to get to play past HS. It started and ended with him. Showcases, summer ball, and scout teams have made HS ball move down the list of importance. You have a whole generation of players and parents that skipped LL, CR, BR whatever to play travel. They are now coming into the HS system. Playing travel instead of HS isn't a hard decision if the cost and/or system makes you choose.

Everything changes.

Who will the stud play for during the high school season? All the good showcase and club teams shut down during the spring high school season until playoffs are done, to comply with high school rules. In So Cal the better players migrate to the better schools, for example Chatsworth High School, Long Beach Wilson, Simi Valley HS, Thousand Oaks High School, or Hart High School. Valencia High School seems to have a few players that are attracting scouts.

I cannot see this scenario happening in our region------players cannot even work out with their travel teams durimg the HS season

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

If baseball could be played under lights and start at 6-7PM

.... we would freeze to death for the first half of the season.

My son played all his little league games in the spring at 7-8PM. I'm sure your son did too.

The weather never bothered my son. But then again, he was a position player that was in the starting lineup most of the time from little league thru high school

It's cold in the first half of the season but it's also cold at 3:30PM too.

I would've traded a few degrees for a later start time.

The majority of our HS games are played at 7pm and almost everyone as lights. All playoff games are 7pm starts.

There is a problem when you have to "check" with the HS coach if you can play on a showcase , summer etc team. Why should you have to check with anyone outside of the HS season? If the coach wants to have a team out of season then fine. But why does that give him the authority to lay claim to anyone? During the HS season 100% of the players baseball efforts should be devoted to his HS team. Outside of that he should be allowed to pursue whatever baseball situation he feels is best for him.

It sounds like to me you have HS coaches that believe they own the rights to these kids regardless of what time of year it is. The players want to pursue opportunities that they believe are better for them. Now you have a conflict. BS! Any coach that is more concerned with his program in the off season than what is best for the player in the off season is selfish and not looking out for the best interest of his players.

In our School district you "better" play for the HS coaches' Legion teams or "you will not" get the recognition needed to play for them in the spring.

Someday the time may come that HS coaches will realize that a kid who plays travel ball will come back next spring a better player---

quote:

Someday the time may come that HS coaches will realize that a kid who plays travel ball will come back next spring a better player---

Or a cockier player because they had it stuffed down their throats that they are gods.

Bulldog

Do you have a problem?

So what does that tell you about that coach? A kid has an opportunity to better himself as a player but he has to do what the coach wants him to do in the off season or else.

No wonder stuff like this is happening.

TR some guys just don't get it. I always wanted my players to play at a level above what they were used to playing at in order to come back even better. What good does it do a rising sr that has already proven he is better than most to continue to beat up on them in the summer before coming back? Oh yeah , he helps the coaches team win in the summer.

That comment is one I hear all the time from players that are not good enough to make a select team in the summer.

Whenever people break away from the group to try and advance their abilities and opportunities there will always be people that are jealous. Funny thing is they are the same people upset they didnt make the team.

quote:

Do you have a problem?

Yes I have a problem. It is called the "everybody for themselves" society that we now live in. I have a former teammate who quit the football team the week before the first game because he wasn't a starter AND because his travel baseball coach wanted him to. This same coach has tried to tell his players they are not allowed to play any school sport.

I have a problem with so-called baseball experts blaming a high school coach when a pitcher hurts his arm due to pitching 100 pitches in a game when the real reason the pitcher hurt his arm is because he has been throwing nonstop for a year or more due to this season, that season, and every other season going over and over again.

I have a problem with a travel team claiming to be "national champions" because they win a tournament that is said to be a "National Championship" when in fact there are numerous of those tournaments each year for each age level!

Yes, to say that I have a problem is an understatement.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

If baseball could be played under lights and start at 6-7PM

.... we would freeze to death for the first half of the season.

My son played all his little league games in the spring at 7-8PM. I'm sure your son did too.

The weather never bothered my son. But then again, he was a position player that was in the starting lineup most of the time from little league thru high school

It's cold in the first half of the season but it's also cold at 3:30PM too.

I would've traded a few degrees for a later start time.

The LL season starts about April 10th. By then the high school has played 9 of the 20 regular season games. The games are longer. It would be real cold after dark.

quote:

Any coach that is more concerned with his program in the off season than what is best for the player in the off season is selfish and not looking out for the best interest of his players.

My son's baseball coach said, "I don't care where you do it. Play at the best level you can. Get in your offseason work somewhere." Obviously the best place to get in offseason training is in front of the coach if it's quality training. In my son's case it is.

The basketball coach cut him from the program for not attending offseason workouts even though he started on the freshman team last year. My son now calls this the best thing that could happen from a baseball standpoint. He can see the results of working out and working on skills six days a week. Last year he made two sessions a week.

quote:

Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

quote:

Someday the time may come that HS coaches will realize that a kid who plays travel ball will come back next spring a better player---

Or a cockier player because they had it stuffed down their throats that they are gods.

I don't understand this comment. My son played for ranked (in the state) teams the past three years. What he got from it is there was a lot of competition for positions on his team, and a lot of competition in the other dugouts. It told him being a hometown hero isn't enough if he wants to play past high school.

quote:

The LL season starts about April 10th. By then the high school has played 9 of the 20 regular season games. The games are longer. It would be real cold after dark.

I agree but going back to the point of getting more people to come out to high school baseball games, there'd be better crowds to come out to support the players if the games were played a little later. By April 10th, we typically got 3-4 games in so there's plenty of games left. While the 3:30-4:00 games are better for the early part of the schedule, the early start draws few people at the games because everybody's working.

quote:

Originally posted by zombywoof:

quote:

The LL season starts about April 10th. By then the high school has played 9 of the 20 regular season games. The games are longer. It would be real cold after dark.

I agree but going back to the point of getting more people to come out to high school baseball games, there'd be better crowds to come out to support the players if the games were played a little later. By April 10th, we typically got 3-4 games in so there's plenty of games left. While the 3:30-4:00 games are better for the early part of the schedule, the early start draws few people at the games because everybody's working.

Let's compromise and go play in the dome at Cust.

zombywoof, I'm gonna start a new topic about the game times because I think it makes sense to be on its own...

quote:

Posted February 03, 2009 08:17 PM Hide Post
quote:
Do you have a problem?


Yes I have a problem. It is called the "everybody for themselves" society that we now live in. I have a former teammate who quit the football team the week before the first game because he wasn't a starter AND because his travel baseball coach wanted him to. This same coach has tried to tell his players they are not allowed to play any school sport.

I have a problem with so-called baseball experts blaming a high school coach when a pitcher hurts his arm due to pitching 100 pitches in a game when the real reason the pitcher hurt his arm is because he has been throwing nonstop for a year or more due to this season, that season, and every other season going over and over again.

I have a problem with a travel team claiming to be "national champions" because they win a tournament that is said to be a "National Championship" when in fact there are numerous of those tournaments each year for each age level!

Yes, to say that I have a problem is an understatement.

Bulldog, I'm disappointed every time I see comments such as yours. There are good and bad coaches on both sides of the HS and Club fence. There are also good and bad players on both sides, and I don't mean ability-wise. I take a great deal of pride in not only helping develop better baseball players, but also better young men. Your timing for these comments is ironic, as just this past weekend, many of our players attended a seminar that we organized and sponsored (It was FREE and open to the public, by the way) where the speakers included a physical therapist to talk about arm health issues, among his other topics. Other speakers included the Hitting Coach for the Diamondbacks, Rick Schu; the New York Mets Manager, Jerry Manuel; former pro player, coach and manager, Leon Lee and finally Cincinnatti Reds Manager Dusty Baker. A great deal of what they talked about had to do with character, dependability, loyalty, honesty, integrity, perseverance and other qualities that can help a player advance, even though those things don't have to do with hitting, catching or throwing a baseball. So I ask you, do you think that any of the young men who play for our CLUB team are cocky? Do you think that we have pitchers arms being injured by overuse? Do you even get it that there are good and bad coaches on both sides and that some of us strive for excellence, not only in our players but in our young men?

It is also ironic that sitting next to me is a paper that I have to turn in for a college course tomorrow. I'd just finished writing and printing this paper for a class I have tomorrow (I've decided to go back to school, at 50) when I opened this thread. The topic I picked for the paper is mentoring. You and I are two different sorts, for sure. On the one hand, I just finished writing a paper titile "Giving Back" and much of it deals with my efforts to encourage my players to mentor those younger boys coming along behind them, just as those same boys were mentored by players who have now moved on to college and pro ball before them. On the other hand, your writing is an indictment of Club baseball coaches and the young men who play for the. You provide an interesting, and disappointing to me, contrast. I don't have much tolerance for cocky players, or parents who come off like you have.

I find your comments as troubling as you find the stuff your complaining about. You, sir, impress me as one of those who sits on "the other side of the fence". I'm glad to not be there with you.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

Yes I have a problem. It is called the "everybody for themselves" society that we now live in. I have a former teammate who quit the football team the week before the first game because he wasn't a starter AND because his travel baseball coach wanted him to. This same coach has tried to tell his players they are not allowed to play any school sport. [QUOTE]

How is playing on a travel team "everybody for themselves"? Would it be OK if the whole HS team decided to play elsewhere in the summer. Then would that be everyone working together?? Then the HS coach would really be screwed. People should do what is best for themselves as long as it doesn't infringe on others.

Why do people care what other people do with themselves. You play legion, he plays travel, good luck to both. Very simple. If a kid pulls that big shot travel **** the other kids will deal with him. IMO it wouldn't be because of the travel coach, it would probably be from the way he was raised.

I never agree with any coach telling a kid not to play any other sports or teams. Why should a non family member dictate what a child should do. I would look for the next team if someone demanded that of my son.

quote:

I cannot see this scenario happening in our region------players cannot even work out with their travel teams durimg the HS season

SURE they can! Thanks for bringing that up TRHit but you're not quite understanding how this evolves. HS "players" cease to be. The don't play high school ball. The state secondary sport association has no control over non-athletes and these "players" become non-athletes by their own description. That's the way sockker does it in Tennessee. They (the controlling body) have established all these rules governing when players can start, how they play, when they can play, and how many games they can play yada yada yada but that means NOTHING because competitive sockker players don't play high school sockker. The TSSAA (Tennessee Secondary Schools Athletic Association) controls high school ATHLETES and it's hard to kick a kid off a HS team when he's not on a HS team.

quote:

There are good and bad coaches on both sides of the HS and Club fence.

You almost NEVER hear about a "bad" coach on a travel team. It is always the high school coach who is "the problem." Did I ever say that all travel coaches are bad? Did I say that all hih school coaches are good?

quote:

Why do people care what other people do with themselves.

Because we have to work as a society to make our country better. Those who are "for themselves only" are the same people who are currently moaning about losing a $90k bonus when their base salary is over $120k. Meanwhile the companies who are expected to pay these are requiring the federal government to fund their businesses.

Both sides of the argument have been brought up here about a High School coach dictating where a player plays in the off season.

The big issue is, there are only 4 years. We have decided to play on his teams in the off season because we have seen previous players lose their chance after playing on other teams.

No choice really for us; right or wrong.

quote:

Why do people care what other people do with themselves.

Because we have to work as a society to make our country better. Those who are "for themselves only" are the same people who are currently moaning about losing a $90k bonus when their base salary is over $120k. Meanwhile the companies who are expected to pay these are requiring the federal government to fund their businesses.[/QUOTE]

Bulldog, I'm all for helping your neighbor and supporting the neighborhood but deciding to play on a out of town travel team is quite different. Helping and caring about others does not mean limiting our and our childrens' dreams and goals. If my neighbor does not have the talent to play for a travel team, that helps get kids exposure for college, does that mean that I shouldn't play and try to help myself?

My point is the vast variety of teams being available has made it that players are no longer "team players." If they aren't starting, then they don't want to do it. They have to be the "star."

BULLDOG

WRONG !!!!! Totally wrong

You sound like a player who could not make a travel team---Are you?

If players have an opportunity to play on a good summer travel team, and parents can afford it, they should. It'll only make them better by getting exposed to higher concentration of better talent. In fact, a lot of the top players double roster on Legion and showcase teams.

Legion ball is great but Legion is at it's best when the Counties and States are going on where the level of play and competition gets amped up.

Bulldog is right. You may disagree with him but what he describes is the way it happens. Level of play is determined by TALENT. If talent moves --- the previous level of play declines. I agree it has become an "everyone for themselves" mentality. I know because I'm guilty as charged. Is that all bad? Depends on which hat you're wearing and how deep your pockets are and what your goals are. If enough talent moves, it virtually destroys the previous level. Anyone that's been around youth baseball for 20 years have seen the migration of talent from rec ball to travel ball. Travel ball exploded and then elite travel teams started their predatory drain on the travel teams. Elite teams hurt the "travel teams" but now they too are facing competition from showcases teams for the same talent that --- strange as it sounds --- was at one time imbedded in the lowly recreational programs.

As I see it there are those out there that will destroy HS baseball in the name of doing "good things" for the talented players. If this takes hold in California and I see no reason that it won't, high school baseball will be effected from coast to coast border to border. This could be terrible for some while others reap rewards ---- rewards that in reality were destined for them wherever they played.

For the most part TALENTED PLAYERS produce successful events and teams --- EVENTS and TEAMS don't actually produce TALENTED players (even though they want to claim credit). Through all the juggling, spending, arguing and evaluations, the number of college and professional roster spots remains the same and the most talented will fill those spots.
Fungo

Since when is doing something for yourself a bad thing? I do not own my HS players. I don't want to. I encourage them to seek out the best situation for them in the off season. In fact I do everything in my power to help find them the best possible baseball situation in the off season. For some thats the HS summer league. For some thats a high level showcase team. For some its the local rec league. And for some its go fishing , work a job and go on family vacations.

This notion that guys that seek out better competition , more exposure to college coaches , better baseball opportunities is selfish and being all about themselves is ridiculous. I had several parents complaining that I helped find a very talented LHP a showcase team a few years back. They said "We could dominate with him on our team." Yeah thats great for your kid winning a few more games in the summer. But what does it do for the LHP? How does it help him? How about you get better and work harder and create some opportunities for yourself instead of trying to ride the back of another player not only during the HS season but the summer as well.

During the HS season its about the HS team. During the off season its about YOU. Its about YOU doing what you need to do to get better. Its about you finding the best baseball situation YOU can find. Who are you to tell someone else what they have to do when your season is over? Quite honestly I find this pathetic.

quote:

Anyone that's been around youth baseball for 20 years have seen the migration of talent from rec ball to travel ball.

I coached rec ball when I was in my early twenties. Kids had to make teams. All-stars were the equivilant of today's travel teams (given geographical constraints). When I returned to coaching with my kids everyone made teams. This diluted the quality of play. The "everyone gets to play at the highest level, feel good" approach drove the market for travel ball. Fortunately our LL was very competitive. Some may not like the level of competition scared off less talented kids to the Ripken program. Our LL was criticized by some locally for being very competitive.

When I coached BR baseball every kid was a former LL all-star since they had to make teams. They knew the game. They competed. This new feel good approach has made 13-15yo rec ball brutal in our area. There are kids who just can't play the game. Therefore, my son has played USSSA Majors (plays against fillsfan son) full time since 13U (now 16U).

I do like the memories I have of going from LL all-stars into BR all-stars with four teammates and then BR all-stars into Legion with eight of the players. Four of us played in the same LL (starting at nine) and all-stars and Legion together from eleven to eighteen. Three of us lived on the same street and played whiffle ball together at a very young age. Eight of us went through six years together. At 16U my son is playing with one player from his LL.

Coach May,
You give 2 examples:
1.

quote:

During the HS season its about the HS team.

2.

quote:

Since when is doing something for yourself a bad thing?

The conflict of #1 and #2 happens when players abandon high school baseball completely and plays for a "more competitive" team instead of their high school team during the high school season. That's what some are trying to implement in Calif. What are your thoughts on that?
Fungo

quote:

You sound like a player who could not make a travel team---Are you?

I never TRIED out for a travel team after 5th grade. Before that, I played on 3 of them. Whether I was good enough or not could be debated. Just like many other travel teams all the way up through high school..

I played baseball because I LOVE the game. If I played 100+ games a year, I don't think I'd love the game like I do now.

If I understood the situation correctly the players were doing this because the HS program would not allow them to play on a competitive team in the summer. Instead they were told they had to play on the HS summer team. If this is the case then I dont have a problem with a player making this type of decision.

If they are just choosing to play on a more competitive team instead of playing HS baseball I think thats a shame.

Fungo - I nearly always agree with you...so some may dismiss what I say here.

But your posts across this thread are some of the very best and most to-the-point I have ever read on this site.

You are spot-on in my opinion. I wish it wasn't so, but I think your observations here are precisely the way it is.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:

The conflict of #1 and #2 happens when players abandon high school baseball completely and plays for a "more competitive" team instead of their high school team during the high school season. That's what some are trying to implement in Calif. What are your thoughts on that?
Fungo

What competitive team would he find during the high school baseball season if all of the competitive high school aged players are playing high school ball?

quote:

Originally posted by justbaseball:
Fungo - I nearly always agree with you...so some may dismiss what I say here.

But your posts across this thread are some of the very best and most to-the-point I have ever read on this site.

You are spot-on in my opinion. I wish it wasn't so, but I think your observations here are precisely the way it is.