Coaches play to win

+1!  

Another +1 from me!!

I think it is mostly true.  Not 100%, but definitely in the 90+ percentile.  A lot less than most would like to believe.  Buying into the "It's Politics" garbage, just makes it easier for your son to fail.  Tell him to work harder than everyone else, hone his skills, be a good teammate, and if it is meant to be good things will happen.

An addendum to the Herm Edwards' postulate....

 

Smart coaches play to win the game.  

 

 

As always, JMO. 

That a coach plays to win, doesn't settle much.  Coaches, especially your average HS coach, are pretty short of being infallible.  I've seen coaches seriously misjudge the players on their teams for one reason or another.  Some coaches let  short-term results blind themselves  to the better long run bet.  A coach trying to win, may place his faith in certain players and give them lots of rope to hang themselves with, while putting other players on a much shorter leash.   Wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to what % of coaches get it wrong in trying to win.  But I bet a non-trivial number do.   HS Coaches are not infallible gods -- long way from it.  

I would say 90% of politics accusations are inaccurate. However, if it's obvious there's politics, don't use it as an excuse. Use it as motivation to get over the wall. The walls aren't there to keep you out. They're there to see how badly you want in.

 

Very true. The coaches are part time, and many of them only have HS / junior college level playing experiences. So although there may not be politics, there may be wrong judgement and wrong strategies.

While I agree that coaches often get it wrong and are not infallible, I disagree that the statement doesn't settle much.  As is the point of the OP (I think), if a player accepts that this is the primary objective of the coach and blocks out all the other BS, perceived or otherwise, they will put themselves in a much better position to take the necessary steps to earn a spot in that particular coach's lineup.

No coach is infallible.  Misjudging talent is far from being politics.  That coach's intent is still to play to win.  Also, the judging of talent is pure opinion.  Just because someone's opinion is different from the coach's, doesn't mean that the coach's judgement is wrong.  There could be other factors that an outsider doesn't see that are part of the coach's decision making process.

 

I have seen this as well.  Usually it is a matter of the trust that a coach has in certain players and a lack of trust he has in other players.  Sometimes this is justified and sometimes it is not.  Either way, it is not a sign that the coach is not playing to win or that politics are involved.  If a player is on the side of the coin where trust is not being shown, keep working and earn that trust from the coach.

 

I don't think ANY coach is infallible.  The issue in the thread is whether coaches play to win or if they play to politics.  I believe far and away that coaches play to win and politics do not enter the equation.  Whether someone agrees or disagrees with the decisions a coach makes is a different issue and I don't think it has anything to do with whether a coach is playing to win or not.

I believe HS coaches play to win of course; but I also believe there can be  questionable decisions made and biases shown that can be easily labeled as "politics."

Typical HS Coach Profile - Played the game professionally or in college and did not reach the Majors.  When playing days were over he finds his way back to his hometown or perhaps his wife's hometown and starts working.  Wants to stay in the game and ends up at the local School coaching.

 

He is competitive and wants to win.  He may even have a chip on his shoulder with something to prove.  None of this means he is sitting guys that can clearly help the team win games.

 

The grey area at a lot of places is not in the best 4 or 5 or the bottom 4 or 5 but the half dozen in the middle.  In other words the kids that will hit 7-8 or be the 3rd or 4th pitcher.

 

There will be some philosophical bents, experienced (Sr. vs So. kind of thing), size, speed or attitude factors.  But in the end most of these decisions typically leave a team in the same place.  How many light hitting outfielders are interchangeable?  Most of them are. 

 

If the team is on its way to 17-8 with the coaches lineup, your lineup wins 16 to 18 games too if that is the decision point.  Every once in a while a coach makes a bad decision on these kind of things and misses the diamond in the rough or the gamer that might turn that 17-8 to 21-4 or something.  I am of the opinion it does not happen often.

 

On the other hand if you are one of these players and you have an approach, mouth or attitude that rubs the coach the wrong way and he wins 17 games with or without you then you should never be surprised if he does it without you.

 

I have told my sons that you win 95% of time in life simply by showing up on time with a good attitude.  The other 5% is defeated with talent.  Whoever has it wins - at everything.

There are times when you don't play to win.

 

My kid's basketball coach would run his senior starters into the ground even when down by 20+ in the fourth, even when the team was out of running for the post season. IMHO that's a good time to get your underclassmen into the game and see what you've got for next year.

JV game, 34 kids on roster, beating a mediocre team with our talented top 10 kids.  Winning 13-1 bottom 4.  No way the other team can win from anyone's perspective.  Second and third round of subs going in, except for a starting outfielder brought into pitch, with one of 4 catchers (never caught in a game this year yet).  Pitcher throws hard flat inaccurate fastballs - that's it.  Bottom five, a few base hits later and some passed balls, score is now 13-4.  Time for inning 6.  Same pitcher and catcher, other subs are held.  Bottom 6 it's now 15-6.  We win in 7 - 15-6 (brought in a regular pitcher and catcher).  Coach goes ballistic on the team saying he will never sub again, loud enough for everyone.  Praises starting lineup and told all subs they lost, basically 5-1.  I think he wanted to go home early and forgot he should be developing and motivating players and it's a team game.  Wanting to win at all costs is not always a good thing.

I wondered whether this simple statement would elicit challenges -- and no surprise, it has.

 

Some don't, but bballman, luvbaseball and others apparently understand this HUGELY IMPORTANT POINT:

 

It doesn't matter a hill of beans whether politics exist!

 

It also doesn't matter whether a coach knows HOW to win.

 

What matters is what players and parents can control. 

 

(And btw, sluggerdad: Even in the big leagues, managers sometimes "Let short-term results blind themselves to the better long run bet.")

 

Who do we complain to then??

One thing I've never understood.  Why is it always the coaches fault?  Is it the coaches fault that player 'A' can't get the signs right?  Always shows up late to practice?  Never makes adjustments of any kind?  Doesn't hustle?  Gives his teachers fits in the classroom?  

 

Who is more likely to have a better, in depth, perspective of the player?  The person who sees them on game day.  OR the people who see them EVERY DAY during Fall Ball, offseason workouts (or not), and everyday during the spring?  ie. 20 hours a week, nine months per year?

 

Just a thought, next time "politics" is involved.

 

"One thing I've never understood.  Why is it always the coaches fault?"

 

At the end of the day, it rarely matters does it?

 

Coaches, just like bosses, have power. 

 

We have choices. Stay or leave. 

 

Sometimes leaving is best, yes. But more often than not -- in sports -- it's best to accept those things we cannot change ... and get after it!!

 

 

...or maybe he was using one of several options to try to motivate the subs to be more prepared and take advantage of the opportunities when they get them.

 

Throwing JV into the conversation certainly changes this discussion.  I suggest we don't muddy up the waters.  The JV scenario has it's own unique set of circumstances and that perspective has been discussed many times here.

If you lost every game at jv level but developed players would it really matter?

Talk radio. 

In my area the HS coaches have very limited contact in the "off season."  So in many cases the "dads" see the kids work all fall/winter with their travel teams.  Most, having seen/coached the kid since he was in diapers have a much more thorough understanding of the kids than a HS coach can. 

 

I will grant that in most cases it is a bias or misjudge of talent rather than pure politics. 

Yes.  Winning and loosing is an attitude/culture.  If you loose to much, you forget how to win. 

The chances of the JV kids on the bench ever making varsity is slim unless there isn't a freshman team and freshmen are stuck behind quality sophs. There are starters on JV who may never start for varsity. Having 34 on JV is a waste of time. The real varsity prospects need the reps.

No offense guys but the scenario is too loaded of a situation to truly get an answer.  If you're developing players then you are going to win most of your games.  If you're not then you're going to lose most of your games.  Nobody forgets how to win and nobody learns how to lose.  You either learn how to perform and have the mental strength to get it done or you don't.  It cracks me up when I hear coaches say "I have to teach them how to win".  Well how do you do that?  Exactly what drill do you do that teaches winning?  If you can tell me what that drill is that teaches you to win I want to know what it is because our practices will get a lot shorter.  You learn to win by doing things correctly and then you do them correctly more than the other team.

 

So end of the day a coach is playing to win.  They are teaching the guys the best of their ability on how to do things correctly. Some coaches are better than others at getting this done.  Some coaches have better players to work with than others.  So many things go into winner other than just putting the best 9 on the field.  That aspect really isn't that hard.  Your best 9 players out of 16 (or whatever you carry) is typically very easy.  What's hard is teaching all of them how to do things better than the other guy.  Because if they can do that then they are going to win.

 

If winning was easy then everyone could do it.

Agree.  34 on a JV roster is far too many.  Max should be 15-16.  Maybe 18 at the very most.  If they had 34 they must have a "no cut" policy. With 34 you could actually have two teams - an "A" team and a "B" team.

This is an interesting tangent.  Two significant differences between HS Coach and a boss on a job that make it a false comparison IMO.

 

1)  The options to leave a HS team are very limited.  Perhaps a private or your family has to pack up and move or become creative in a transfer.   Jobs have much more mobility than being a player in a HS sport.

2)  HS is a child vs. an Adult with Power.  Jobs are two adults that made affirmative decisions to be in the situation.  They have many options beyond the current setup basically because of reason number 1.

 

The whole dynamic of HS Sports is very simple:  It is the Coach's Team/Universe.  You are at his leisure and there is no democracy.  You are a totally captive audience based on the house your parents bought.  You have zero choice or say in the matter.  If you want to play you must do so based on his wishes, failure to comply can and frequently does carry consequences. 

 

The only exception to this basic truth is Coach misconduct. 

I understand and generally agree.  I just think the winning is a mindset.  You basically said it yourself -- "You either learn how to perform and have the mental strength to get it done or you don't."  It is about confidence.  Constant loosing affects confidence regardless if any "development" is going on. 

Constant losing is a product of not developing your players and building a program through developing your players. I never won a JV championship. I was too busy trying to develop all my players so they could help us win a Varsity championship and move on to play in college. I didn't allow them to ride one or two arms. I didn't allow the to set a line up. That JV SS might need to play CF the next year behind my stud SS because my CF was graduating. So he didn't star at SS on the JV. The focus is on getting better as players. Learning what working at getting better really is. Learning that its not about the games it's what it takes to be ready for the games. What you do when no one is watching will determine what you can do when everyone is watching.

 

Most kids entering HS have no idea what 3 hours a day 5 to 6 days a week on a baseball field is about. What the weight room is really about. What physical and mental toughness really are. They have to be taught how to win, win each Day, Hour, Minute they are at the feild. The games are cake. They are the reward for the hard work and dedication that it takes to put on the jersey. I coach my butt off so I don't have to coach on game day. If you have to coach on game day you already lost the game.

 

Why did my JV teams that were lucky to go .500 win multiple Varsity Championships against the same kids 1 2 3 years down the road? Why do some programs always seem to win no matter who graduates? Why do some only have success when a good crop comes through and then they always seem to underachieve?

 

Winning is an attitude that is developed by knowing you have done what it takes to win. You go to sleep knowing no one else could have worked harder than you. You have confidence because you know you have put in the work. JV should be about development and learning what it's going to take for you to have success both as a player and a team mate. When players understand this you don't have to do much coaching. You teach. You mentor. You encourage. And if anything you have to hold them back at times becaues they catch fire and won't stop. The younger players catch this fire and it's on.

 

I never had a team go into a game hoping to win. They expected to win. That comes from knowing you have earned it before the game is played. That is a winning attitude and it is developed by the way you things each and every day.

 

The above is the exact attitude/mind set my son's HS (Varsity), JuCo and University teams have (or have had).  They went into a game expecting to win, not just hoping they would win or play well. Practice hard and you will earn the win.

Hey Coach, will you come and coach my son's team?   

From coaching 11/12 baseball, softball and basketball and up I asked my teams did they prefer to win or were they willing to put in the practice and effort it takes to win. Some kids don't know the difference. They really want to win. But they have no idea what it takes.

The old Bob Knight quote:  Everyone has the will to win.  Whats important is the will to prepare to win.  

I completely agree with you as well in that winning and losing is a mindset.  It's close to a chicken and egg situation as to which comes first - do good fundamentals lead to a winning mindset or does a winning mindset lead to good fundamentals?  I think the answer is yes they do.  Like I said in previous post - there are so many factors in going into winning vast majority of the time it doesn't matter where you start at fixing the problem - you just need to fix it.

 

If I'm taking over a team that has constantly lost their mindset is going to be terrible.  But so will their fundamentals because nobody has taught them and / or they haven't done anything to get themselves better..  Me spending 2 or 3 hours each practice telling them they can be good won't amount to squat.  Me spending 2 or 3 hours each practice showing them how to do things right and how to act like a winner will lead to a change in mindset.  

 

I guess what I'm saying is is that as soon as a coach gets up in front of his players and says "we have to win" or "we must win".  Now the ends justify the means and they don't.  As bad as you want to win it's not very easy because there is that other team in the other dugout who is going to play hard to beat you.  They aren't going to lay down and die just because you want to win.  You look into the bullpen and they have a guy throwing 65 MPH and think it's going to be easy.  Next thing you know you're in a dogfight because he's pitching a gem.  Everything on paper says you should win by mercy rule but you're not - why?  The answer is that guy throwing 65 is competing and wanting to beat your a$$.  But he's not beating you because he wants to - he's beating you because he's making great pitches and you're not making adjustments at the plate to be patient and look the other way.  Losers mentality is going up to the plate thinking they can hit a 7 run homer with nobody on base.  A winners mentality is going to take that slow outside fastball to opposite field for a double.  Like Coach May is saying - only thing you can control is how well you prepare and if you prepare to the best of your ability then you'll probably be fine.  You truly cannot control winning because the other team wants to beat you as bad as you want to beat them.

As with everything, every area and subject matter has its differences, and similarities.

I will say this.  I don't disagree at all that a father has more insight to the type of player his son was when he was 11.  All too common though, is the projection of that former self into the present, and the belief that his now 16 year old son is the same dominant force that he was when he was 11.  When, in fact, he isn't.  The player he was when he was in Coach Pitch is not much of a predictor to the player he will be when is a junior in high school.  Which is to say, that almost all great (and even marginal) 17 year olds on varsity, were amazing in Little League.  But not all Little Leaguers will grow up to be an All-State player in high school.

 

Quite often, its the HS coaches (and showcase coaches, and college coaches) that see this, not the parent.

It's tough being a coach, very rewarding in some ways, and thankless in others.  Keep up the good work!  We're fortunate to have a large coaching staff, working with a lot of young talented kids.

When you turn to winning & losing I think of John Wooden quotes.  Two of his best:

Don’t measure yourself by what you’ve accomplished, but rather by what you should have accomplished with your abilities.

 

You can lose when you outscore somebody in a game. And you can win when you're  outscored.

I think if fits this topic perfectly.  IMO a JV's primary goal is to maximize players abilities and if they do - the results will be what they are supposed to be over the whole span of the HS career for both player and team. The scoreboard is not the right measure of success.

 

Coaching my sons through youth ball I took pleasure from the team when we went out and had 1 walk, 0 Errors, ran the bases well, had good at bats.  When we did those things we won a heck of a lot of games.  We also lost some 2-1 type games to teams that were much better man for man than we were.  I was prouder of those losses than the 12-1 wipeouts of inferior teams. 

 

We were viewed as that scrappy bunch that played sound defense, threw strikes and would put the ball in play but we were undersized and had little power.  We were that team that good teams hated because we frustrated them by simply biting their leg and never letting go.  We had some nice wins but mostly just weren't good enough against the very top line competition.  But at places like Cooperstown we would win 7 or 8 games.

 

In the end I believe it meant the boys did their best in the game situations and in the end that is all any coach can really hope for.

 

I wouldn't limit it just to the son (I accept that Dads can be biased).  On my kids high school team, I coached and/or played against several of the kids in multiple sports over the years.  I can tell you which kids "get it," and work hard and which don't.  I know who the head cases are and who the "gamers" are.  I can tell you whose parents "get it" and whose do not.  I can even tell you who the best looking moms are.    This is from year over year experience, something the average HS coach may not have until the kid is a Sr. 

I agree coaches play to win they also have bias if you want to call it political then fine.  I see them all the time.  For example kid 1 and kid 2 look the same but kid 1 has a better bat than kid 2 but kid 2 is faster and better at defense, some coaches will take kid 1 all day every day and some coaches will take kid 2.  Its all about their personal preferences.  Politics does happen I have seen that as well not much (a couple of times) but it does happen.  A kid started V when should have been starting JV but was that way because she was a teachers kid that they worked with.  Also, seen it with a Dad basically buying a spot on the starting lineup man did he pay to get it.  

Have you seen proof of the dad paying off the coach? Or did you only hear about it? I'll bet the amount gets larger every time the story is told regardless of whether it's true or not. I've joked about some kids in the lineup having naked pics of the coach with farm animals. But I didn't mean it.

 

One thing I've learned in life is believe little of what you hear second hand and don't believe everything you see.

The whole point here, Irondad, is that absolutely none of this matters because it's outside a player or parent's control. What does matter is how hard a player works, how well he performs, and how good a team player he is.

 

And btw -- I for one do not believe at all that these things happen all the time. In fact, they're far more rare than many believe. What's common is conjuring up excuses -- especially among parents.

 

Here's a test: Ask the players on 20 HS teams who should be starting, I'll bet that 90% of the time you'd discover that they agree with the coach. They know - even if dad or mom doesn't.