College catchers

...and you have other programs that literally put "help wanted" signs up around campus because they haven't had a servicable catcher in 5 years yet won't recruit a local catcher with a great attitude, great backstop, great speed--because "they're not sure he can hit better pitching."

JT,

And he should be a left handed hitter!!

JT, I think many of the larger programs pass over the local talent. i have never understood that!!
Fungo

Our son's travel team catcher in HS was a real stud. He was a great receiver/blocker, hit for average and hit for power. He was drafted out of HS and could have gone to a D1 school out of HS...but instead chose to go the JC route.

Why? His dad told me that if he went to StateU that he would probably sit on the bench for 2 years before getting a real chance...at the JC he would play all the time and after 2 years be ready to step into a D1 program.

His plan has worked beautifully so far. As a freshman JC player, he was 'all-conference-1st-team' playing all the time and has committed to a top-40 D1 for next year.

Is this the right plan for everyone? No, but I think he and his father understood what Fungo has posted well before I did and the plan for them has worked very well.

Great story. Nice point about catchers, especially, having to apprentice a couple years. Kind-of puts things ina better perspective.

I remember a similar example. The kid was a great youth catcher. Didn't get as many looks from scouts as I thought he deserved. He is still active and thriving. I wish him well.

I too learned alot about D1 catchers this year. The way I see it, the first year or possibly two could be apprentice years. Many schools will bring in a transfer ready (as JBB points out in his post). Do your homework.

Coaching at the college level, any sport, requires lying.

Pressure to win means you better have more than one option.

So, they load up at any and all positions they can.

They could care less about the ones who don't play.

The goal is to win.

Absolutely, positively, NO player developement goals.

If my son were a DI athlete, he would go to a DII or DIII school for this very reason.

College coaches are not trustworthy when it comes to recruiting.

some good observations
just be careful with the apprentice mindset - don't count on a "loyalty factor", because
if a freshman can contribute more than an upperclassman, he'll likely get the job


JT/fungo, the thing about some programs overlooking local guys?

kinda like a fisherman standing on the log with a 5 lb bass lurking beneath, then trying to muscle his cast 100 ft offshore



linear - yikes & I thought they were TOO honest with opinions
anyways
what are DI coaches required to lie about??
when Birmingham Southern went DI, did coaches have to lie immediatly, or did they kinda ease into it?

you can consider it a rhetorical question if ya want

Sometimes it's an outright lie....."Yes, you'll play."

Sometimes it subtle....."you've got a great shot" (knowing there is no way he'll beat out the current player) But the coach gets him "for the future", or as a "quality backup" or "keeps him from the competition".

Brutal

If you're not looking over the ages of the current roster players and investigating their ability AND investigating the coaches track record on developing his underclassmen versus going to juco's, AND investigating the number of kids who transfer out, you're making a huge mistake.

Everyone on Dukes bench thought they'd be the next Christian Laettner. Many of them, I would say close to half of them, will not step foot on the court, in a meaningful game, their entire tenure.

Not all D1 coaches are liars...just as not all Midwesterners are cynics.

While it's absolutely true that the rosters are routinely large enough to allow players to assume roles such as the ones Fungo describes at the beginning of this thread, to suggest that D1 coaches as a group routinely lie and lack commitment to player development is as inaccurate as it is a gross generalization.

Linear

Perhaps you think that way because your subscribe to that theory.

College colleges who "lie" as you claim don't last very long. Not in todays world ?

WOW! Linear, while your statement is true in some instances, to make a blanket statement like you have shows a great deal of cynicism, and lack of familiarity with many very fine men who coach college baseball. To call college coaches all a bunch of liars takes major "huevos" and does a disservice to many who are anything but that.

I don't know that many college coaches, but of the few that I know a little bit, I can say they are honest and forthright; and I'd be honored if my son has the opportunity to play for any of those we've come to know. The ones I know DO care about their players, and their futures. Of the ones who are juco coaches (my son will likely play juco ball), their rate of players going on to 4-year programs is a pretty strong indicator of their commitment to these young men.

Linear, unfortunately you're right with your observations in some cases. Also unfortunately, I think some of these coaches have come to be the way they are due to pressures from parents and their expectations. Which came first, the problem parent, or the disingenuous coach?

quote:

Originally posted by Prepster:
Not all D1 coaches are liars...just as not all Midwesterners are cynics.

While it's absolutely true that the rosters are routinely large enough to allow players to assume roles such as the ones Fungo describes at the beginning of this thread, to suggest that D1 coaches as a group routinely lie and lack commitment to player development is as inaccurate as it is a gross generalization.

Really?

So, will the coach play the backup catcher next year, (you know, the guy who is now a junior, paid his dues, has been backing up the starter for 2-3 years, working his *** off, being good, waiting for an opportunity) after the current one graduates or will he go juco to improve the team?

That will explain the difference between "player development" and "we better win".

quote:

Originally posted by 06catcherdad:

Linear, unfortunately you're right with your observations in some cases...

You say "some" cases. Well, take the teams that are perennial top 10-20 teams. They do it. They have to do it OR they wouldn't be perennial top 20. How else can you have the best or near best talent every year? You don't do it by letting players develop. Players who "need" time to develop, versus those who "want" time to develop, don't get it on perennial winning teams.

I know you don't like the word lie. But, call it want YOU want. It's my shorthand term for what goes on in every top program.

You can't win without it.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear
Coaching at the college level, any sport, requires lying.

Linear, with that comment, you just tarred and feathered thousands of college coaches in several thousand sports programs at over a thousand colleges and universities. While the pressure to win is present at all levels, it doesn't require a person who lacks character in every program to steer the ship. Many coaches still cling to the nostalgic view that one of their responsibilities to to build character in their players, among other duties.

I guess you and I will just see this issue differently, and for that I am glad.

At major programs, players and their families are not routinely told that a "seniority system" governs playing time. Even at programs that bring in few transfers, recruited players are typically told that they'll "have a shot" and that the best players will see the most playing time, regardless of their standing in terms of longevity.

As a result, there is constant competition among players; competition that requires that they develop into the best players they can become. The players understand this and recognize that it's a process that makes them better as a team.

"Competitive?" Yes. "Deceptive?" No.

Does every recruited player have the responsibility of knowing as best they can the sort of environment they're choosing? Absolutely.

But, to suggest that because coaches don't systematically promote players because of their longevity in the program they are liars is a gross misrepresentation of what takes place.

quote:

coaches don't systematically promote players because of their longevity in the program

They play the best players and if you are relying on the longevity system, you are in trouble.

That's they way it is.

Deal with it.

I have no problem playing the best players.

I have a problem with what is told a player to get him to go to the coaches school versus what happens after he got there.

And if you don't think they are deceptive then go ahead, trust em. Don't do your homework.

But by so doing you're leaving an awful lot to chance.

It's a very hard assessment to make for position players. Much easier read for pitchers.

If mine was a pitcher and threw 90+ he would not be allowed in a DI program.

BTW, did you read what Rod Dedeaux said to bbscout?????????? Read between the lines. That is what all parents and prospects need to know.

As trite as it may sound, many of the best players are motivated to play among the best players. They recognize that it doesn't guarantee them anything beyond that; something they view as the challenge of opportunity. For them, there is an aspiration to continue to play with and among the best players as long as they are capable. These are the sort who...yes, after "doing their homework"...make their (own) choices about where they will play.

Linear,

I dont think it is fair to throw a blanket over all coaches.

Most of them are really good guys - in addition to being good coaches. Honest, hard working - and they have to make tough decisions every single year.

Yes - you will always find liars sprinkled about - but there is no way I would say they are even close to being in the majority - no less ALL coaches.

The trick for the parent - and the player - is to find out which ones are a bit slimy - and to stay far away from them.

IMO.

Linear

Let me ask you this--what is your experience, other than hearsay, with college coaches and how they run their programs and what they tell their players either on the roster or incoming?

There are also many programs that do not recruit JUCO players

Linear,
Don't have a dog in this fight but like to say a few things, some of which have already been said.
In defense of college coaches, I do beleive that what happens is that during the recruiting process parents and players only hear WHAT they want to hear, they do not ask questions that will help in the decision making. They are just so happy that their son has been given an opportunity to play that much is left unsaid, some are afraid to dig deep.
In defense of parents and players, some aspects are sometimes conveniently left out of the recruiting process, intentioanlly. Some coaches have no need to take more than they do, but some coaches can and will if the opportunity arises.
I don't think son ever thought he was guaranteed anything other than that to earn a starting spot he needed to work hard on and off the field. As Prepster stated, the constant competition among players makes for them to develop into the best players they can be for the team. It's created by the coaches and exists on purpose.
It's very hard for a coach to determine what type of player one will be a year (when they committ) later when they come to school. Some are hurt, some are just not what expected, grades werenot as good as should be, coach found someone else along the way.

As it was explained to me recently, the job of the recruiting coach, in a top D1 program, is to sign the BEST players he can to field a team that can particiapate year after year in the regional field. In the smaller schools, it is to win their conference championship. All programs have different goals. If perhaps a championship team is developed along the way, that's a bonus. And if perhaps there is a weakness, then the coach goes looking to fill that need, or sometimes they get caught because who they thought would be drafted wasn't, or too many were and left. Ineligible players, transfers out. It's a constant replenishing of the need. This year a junior pitcher came to the roster. Did they need another pitcher, no. Did they need a pitcher who could throw 95, unhittable slider and a closer, yes. Did they need him to get closer to a championship, maybe, maybe not. Are some pitchers going to be left out, no. They will all fill a role, but in which has yet to be determined. Some players know they will never get the start, but that's ok, they accept that, it is their choice to stay. Being part of the TEAM is most important to them.

Is a fall roster of 45-50 fair and ethical, no. Would I send my son to a school that over recruits, no. Would I send my son to a school who does not recruit enough, no.

The issue is, parents and players need to come to an understanding of where to draw the line during the recruiting phase. Understand the options, not get caught off guard come the fall. So you are correct in stating, that they must do their homework. Most parents DO not do this, but hopefully through guidance more an more will.

But to generalize that all coaches are liars is unfair and unless you have been through the process, have a son that played or plays to see and understand what does go on, then I as a parent would not take your statements too seriously.

JMO

On this topic - or at least where it has evolved to - I think it would be great to hear from parents of players who have had a tough time of it.

I have said this many times before - to no avail IMO. Most people wont do it for fear of being called very convenient and derogatory names.

It is easy for parents of players who have had immediate success - to accuse parents of players who havent - of being idiots - or being the type of people who "Hear only what they want to hear". Or having them say "Your kid couldnt compete" - or "didnt want it bad enough"

In many cases - they are meaningless cliches of parents whose kids have had success. It is the same old - "In your face" stuff you saw in Little League" IMO.
There are MANY other TRUE stories - none of which involve any of the cliches above.

Remember - It is easy to spew out baseball cliches when all has worked out well for your kid from the get go.

We need more people here who tell the truth about how things didnt work out - and how their kid responds. Good or bad.

We also dont need a blanket generalization about how all coaches are liars (from someone who doesnt have any clue) - and many of us dont need trite cliches about how blind we were going into the whole process.

We need truth. IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Linear:
Coaching at the college level, any sport, requires lying.

Pressure to win means you better have more than one option.

So, they load up at any and all positions they can.

They could care less about the ones who don't play.

The goal is to win.

Absolutely, positively, NO player developement goals.

If my son were a DI athlete, he would go to a DII or DIII school for this very reason.

College coaches are not trustworthy when it comes to recruiting.

hmmm...I disagree. You've been talking to the wrong programs. To blanketly say that all D-1's lie and don't develope players is very untrue.

"It is easy for parents of players who have had immediate success - to accuse parents of players who havent - of being idiots - or being the type of people who "Hear only what they want to hear". Or having them say "Your kid couldnt compete" - or "didnt want it bad enough."

I don't know if you were referring to my statement regarding parents not hearing what they want to hear. It happens, and it happens to those who have success as well. Nothing was stated about any type of players abiltiy. No one called anyone an idiot. People just don't always hear what is actually said to them. They are very excited during the recruiting phase.

They tend to not realize, that their player who had success on the field in HS or on that elite travel summer team, has to work just as hard as anyone else for that start, or to even stay on the team for that matter.

I do agree, it would be helpful if parents did come out and tell stories of how it DIDN'T work out, so all can learn. But they won't.

I'll be happy to share a story. Mine was given an ultimatum this past summer. Although many think he had an "awesome" year, far from what was expected, he was given an ultimatum, you work harder or you can put in for a transfer before season starts.

Yes, they are putting together the best team they can, to win.........

And if your son can't help them, he won't play.

If another player out hits your son, he won't play.

If another player plays better defense, your son won't play.

If another player out hits and plays defense better than your son, he sure as H E L L won't play.

Deal with it.

Linear whats the point of doing your homework if they are (all) liars? Every kid that goes into a program gets a shot. The fact is coaches want to win. And they are going to put the kids on the field that they feel give them the best chance of winning. Everyone can not play all the time. Some kids will not play much. And some kids will never get to play. That is just a fact of life. Its the same at every level above rec ball. Are you suggesting that college coaches only recruit enough to field a team and then hope that no one gets hurt , flunks out, quits the game or gets dismissed for disciplinary issues? Players know the deal. If you outplay your competition you will play. And if you dont you wont. Do your homework? Why? All college coaches are liars according to you. If a kid ends up being the bull pen catcher its because he got beat out on the field and that is where he helps the team the most right now. Not because the coach is a liar. That kid has choices to make. Keep working hard and improve his situation as far as playing time, transfer, or quit. Some kids are just thrilled to be a part of a great college program and are excited about the opportunity to bull pen catch for their squad. They are called team players and they are just as important as anyone else on that roster. You paint with a broad brush. If you know of a coach that does what you say fine. But (all) college coaches? Linear its hard for people to find any truth in anything you say when you make these kinds of statements.

actually,
a close look at top 20 programs shows a fairly even balance of freshmen vs seniors
starting or contributing -

luck is also a big factor -

assuming you're working hard, a little bit of good luck can change your situation quickly if you're ready to step in and play

.

quote:

luck is also a big factor -

TPM,

I hope you didnt think I was singling you out - or trying to offend you in any way. You know how much I respect your opinion.

I did - however - take note of the comment about parents and players only "hearing what they want to hear". I dont agree with that generalization - just like I dont agree with the generalization about coaches not telling the truth.

Do these things happen - sure. But as a general rule - my opinion is they are not very accurate or fair.

I do think that at higher levels of baseball, anything can happen each and every year. Coaches/programs can be successful or not - players can be successful or not - and there are many different reasons for all of these situations.

We seem to always say that each player's (and his families) situation is unique. I agree with that more than ever after having been involved with so many players and their families. (I also see a much greater understanding of the process by players and families. In many cases - these folks have been already been through the process once - or twice before - with another family member. Or maybe it is all the information that is available nowadays - who knows?)

But - other than working/playing hard - and being a good representative of your school/team/community - I cant think of any generalizations that are truly relevant.

That is also why I wish we would get more feedback on this site of "less than successful experiences". You are probably right that most people wont post about these type of experiences. I think it is a shame because there is alot to learn from these experiences - as well as the successful experiences.

That was my point - and again - I hope I didnt offend you.

Regards

itsinthegame,
I wonder if generalizations tend to surface because most of us have just a snippet of information and in sharing that information we have to make assumptions, allow the reader to make assumptions, or just fill in the blanks to make the post seem less of a personal diary. I’m guilty of that. I think everyone knows that I’m just the father of one son that played at one high school that went to one college and plays for one pro team. The majority of posters here are parents and parent’s information is very narrow in scope but for the most part is given without a hidden agenda. I can tell you my son was recruited by a number of coaches and I never felt any coach lied to him but that doesn’t give me the knowledge to say that no coaches lie to recruits. Nor does it give me enough information to say that these particular coaches didn’t lie to other players they were recruiting. If a poster makes a comment like “all coaches are liars” I think we have to consider the scope of that poster’s knowledge. This poster may see it as such because that poster may have only dealt with one coach and that one coach lied to him.

Fungo,

I agree with your assessment. (I also feel bad that this post started out about catchers - and veered off a bit - and that I am part of that.)

I have come to realize and appreciate that one of the amazing parts of what Bob H. created here is an open and honest forum where folks with limited experience can hear about the multi-faceted aspects of college baseball (amongst other things). Hopefully it will make them aware of all of the twists and turns that may lie ahead - and how best to prepare for them.

Noone can claim perfect knowledge - that is for sure. I just hope that players and parents read everything on this site - and understand that generalizations can be misleading and inaccurate.

Until you have actually been through a year of college baseball, I don't believe "I am giving you a chance to make the team" is fully understood.

Lie

A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression.

One of the biggest revelations about college baseball, to me, was just how little impact the coach has on the team make up.

Sounds like a lie, doesn't it?

But, the same laundry list of items that I use to explain why kids aren't on the team, affect the coach the same way, right?

Injuries, draft, grades, GF, money, distance, competition, lack of patience, lack of family planning (note the more politically correct presentation) all affect the final roster.

So, on that recruting visit, when the coach tells you that he is giving you a chance to make the team, that is true, because none of them can tell you what the roster will look like on the first game day. (which is JUST ABOUT HERE!)

In these forums we rarely consider the coaches, (teams?) point of view.

If you don't consider the team and the coaches perspective, you won't see where you FIT (ever see that word on here) and you may believe you were lied to.

It ain't about 'turns' anymore, it's about chances. And with a chance comes risk.................

its,
I was not sure of your comments. I too was not happy with Linears statement that "all coaches lie", so was trying to answer the best way I could.
I have found that there are sometimes miscommunication along the way, but that is not saying that coaches are always truthful or parents are always wearing the rose colored glasses.

I think our sons are more than aware of what needs to be done when they arrive on the field, pro or college. It's the nature of the beast, the best man gets the job. However, sometimes that always doesn't happen and I cannot understand why. We hear stories. The next thing you hear is coach lied. So as Fungo suggests we hear snippets of information, and then generalizatons and opinions are formed.

I never found that any coaches lied to my son during the recruiting process, though I will admit a few did have a lot of ,you know what to shovel out. I didn't really understand the whole thing untl son set foot on campus and has been at school for a year.

So I repeat to Linear, unless you have walked in the shoes, unless it has happened to you, don't make generalizations.

I just happened onto this thread, I am a little late, but this is the type information that this web-site was created for. We do all need to help players/parents through the steps to the next level.
I too, think linear is incorrect in stating that all college coaches lie. FO has it right. TPM has done what we posters should all do in order to give helpful, useful information to others. Be honest, good or bad. BEE, luck also plays a role. In my son's fresh. year, A rs soph was given start at first of season, son broke into the line-up when starter developed "intense intestinal upset" Son sealed the deal with his bat.
Son was told, at unofficial visit, that best player would play. Son just believed he could be best player. Son was strongly recruited by several "top schools, better progrgams", but filed away recruitment as soon as coach told him unconditionally he would start.
As a side note, players/parents...do not get discouraged, do not give up easily. Has taken son 2 years to listen to his body, properly stretch and weight train. In HS and LL everything came easy, thought he was superman, a little hard-headed Luckily, for my son, he picked the right place to play, Coach knows how hard son has worked, likes son (increased his scholly after awful season), got him all the medical help he needed, and has been honorable in his word. Main thing, son never gave up, learned from his pain, continues to work hard/smart and never stopped dreaming...even when it seemed unrealistic to everyone else. First game 1/28/06...I'll let you all know how it goes.
Fungo, TPM, Bee, Its, TR, Prepster, and others, thank you for all the very helpful, encouraging information you give to all.

TPM states:

"So I repeat to Linear, unless you have walked in the shoes, unless it has happened to you, don't make generalizations."

Not trying to be argumentative here but actually maybe enhance your statement,
I don't believe even "walking in the shoes, unless it has happened you" gives
someone absolute evidence to claim this is the norm for "every" coaching situation. It only means that one has proof about that one particular coach and ONLY to that one particular experience. Other people's experiences might help to reinforce one's feelings but then those are THEIR experiences-may or may not be 100% accurate.

Personally, I believe some coaches do lie but only from what parents
of other players have told me. In my two sons' recruiting experiences with a number of colleges and where they ended up I don't believe we were ever lied to. LOTS OF FLUFF AND EXAGGERATION and... well-intended promises not kept.

But OUR personal experiences cannot justify broad generalizations about all
college coaches.

Just something in favor of college coaches. Within the three past years I have had two players that a coach took a chance with because I believed that they had a chance to become ball players. The first was a LH pitcher that threw in the upper 80's but needed fine tuning. The young man was thrilled with the opportunity to play but quickly became disillusioned as the year progressed because of lack of IP. He left the program after his freshman season disgruntled. The second player, a talented SS that a KC scout liked very much, was given a chance even though he was considered lacking in mental toughness. His coach had to release him because the young man failed to go to class and maintain eligibility.
One player bashed his coach the other acknowledged his coach for keeping his word and allowed himself to be held accountable for his own short comings. These coaches are among many that are willing to give a roster spot to a question mark. They do this not just because potential is present but they also see something in each player as a person that they feel will make a positive contribution to that squad.
There are some coaches that I do not agree with on various practices but the vast majority I have no problem with even when I don't understand exactly what their motivation and tactics are initially. Coaches are not cloned and I personally enjoy the person as an individual as much as I do each player, parent, umpire, groundskeeper, spectator and fan of the game. I like to think that I grow a little with each meeting whether it is just a chance run in or competing on the field. I like the feeling of learning something new with each occurrence. JMHO

The most important thing to me as my son decided on where he would go to college was who he would play for. His options included some of the best academic schools in the country, so I knew that his academic needs would be met.

Pertaining to baseball, I had to trust the coach and his staff without question or hesitation or I would have stepped in and my son would have had to move on. My son knows the catching situation at his university and where the coaching staff feels he will fit in. He watched the team play prior to signing his letter. He made an informed choice and is looking forward to earning playing time and helping his team be successful.

In Division I baseball, the objective is to win. Best players play. That's understood. A coach will give you his anticipation of your son's role as he sees it. You must make the decision as to whether or not you trust him. If you don't, you have to power to continue searching for the right match and a coach you are comfortable with.

There are many great D-1 coaches, men of the highest integrity and ethics. If you cannot find one in this country, then you need a mirror to find the cynic that is keeping you from making intelligent decisions.

To state that all Division I coaches lie is unfair and irresponsible. Of course some are more ethical and honest than others, but that exists in every business you see. We are responsible for the choices we make. Coaches have backgrounds and histories that can be checked. Look at their programs and what they've done. Then decide. There will be times when things don't work out for one reason or another, but that's life. Not every problem is attributable to a dishonest coach, however.

I'm sending my son to a school more than 600 miles from my home, to live on his own for the first time. I trust the university and the coaching staff that will give him the framework of his college experience, on and off the baseball diamond.