Here are the pitch count rules for Colorado high school baseball:
| Varsity | |
|---|---|
| Pitches | Required Rest |
| 86-110 | 3 Days |
| 61-85 | 2 Days |
| 36-60 | 1 Day |
| 1-35** - Additionally, no pitcher may throw more than 60 pitches over two days. If they throw 60 pitches in two days, there will be one day of required rest. | 0 Days* |
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So, how would you read this situation: pitcher throws 4 pitches to close out a game on Friday. He starts a game on Saturday. How many pitches may he throw, by rule?
This so interesting because we have one coach that counts days of rest differently than the rest of the coaching staff. I haven't seen rest days defined in our pitch count rules yet (which go into effect next year) so my first question would be if there is a definition for what constitutes a day of rest in the rules? To me, a day of rest is one calendar day of no pitching. To the coach I am talking about, it is 24-hours.
So, if the kid stops pitching at 5:30 pm on Friday, this coach would say the kid is eligible to pitch under a full day's rest at 5:30 pm on Saturday, so he could throw a max of 110 pitches after 5:30.
To me, that is a stretch of logic and I would say the kid can throw 56 pitches on Saturday, no matter when the game starts.
I can't wait to hear the details of this particular scenario.
roothog66 posted:So, how would you read this situation: pitcher throws 4 pitches to close out a game on Friday. He starts a game on Saturday. How many pitches may he throw, by rule?
56
56 is how the site director read it, too. To me this seems intuitively wrong. I had thought it was pretty clear when the rules were written that the purpose of this is entirely indicated with the second sentence and not to limit a pitcher in the above situation to 56 pitches a day after throwing 4. Surely the intent was to stop teams from avoiding the pitch count limits by, say, throwing a kid 34-34-34 pitches in consecutive days without rest. Reading that first line strictly would totally negate the entire chart. Any pitcher throwing 61 pitches in a single game inherently has thrown more than 60 pitches in two days and, thus, violated the rule.
I think if written as to properly articulate the purpose it would have read more like:
"additionally, any pitcher throwing 60 or more pitches in two days must rest a minimum of one day before pitching again."
As interpreted you have an addendum that covers only 60 pitches, no more or no less.
Agreed, with the intent and your sentiment. Also to stop 35 one day, 110 the next.
That's the problem with rules, it's easier to say make a rule than to actually write and implement a rule. Doesn't look to hard to clean up the language, though.
roothog66 posted:
56 is how the site director read it, too. To me this seems intuitively wrong. I had thought it was pretty clear when the rules were written that the purpose of this is entirely indicated with the second sentence and not to limit a pitcher in the above situation to 56 pitches a day after throwing 4. Surely the intent was to stop teams from avoiding the pitch count limits by, say, throwing a kid 34-34-34 pitches in consecutive days without rest. Reading that first line strictly would totally negate the entire chart. Any pitcher throwing 61 pitches in a single game inherently has thrown more than 60 pitches in two days and, thus, violated the rule.
I think if written as to properly articulate the purpose it would have read more like:
"additionally, any pitcher throwing 60 or more pitches in two days must rest a minimum of one day before pitching again."
As interpreted you have an addendum that covers only 60 pitches, no more or no less.
I’m not sure what the issue here is but for a different reason. Was there no other player on the team who could have finished the Fri game? 
I wouldn’t get too bothered by these little hiccups in the 1st year of a new pitch limits rule. The 1st year LLI put the rule in for real there were all kinds of hitches in the giddyup but they eventually got worked out. It’s a new world and the rules are going to need to be figgered out and adjusted if necessary.
FWIW, I think I’d have said he was limited to 56 the 2nd day as well.
Stats4Gnats posted:roothog66 posted:
56 is how the site director read it, too. To me this seems intuitively wrong. I had thought it was pretty clear when the rules were written that the purpose of this is entirely indicated with the second sentence and not to limit a pitcher in the above situation to 56 pitches a day after throwing 4. Surely the intent was to stop teams from avoiding the pitch count limits by, say, throwing a kid 34-34-34 pitches in consecutive days without rest. Reading that first line strictly would totally negate the entire chart. Any pitcher throwing 61 pitches in a single game inherently has thrown more than 60 pitches in two days and, thus, violated the rule.
I think if written as to properly articulate the purpose it would have read more like:
"additionally, any pitcher throwing 60 or more pitches in two days must rest a minimum of one day before pitching again."
As interpreted you have an addendum that covers only 60 pitches, no more or no less.
I’m not sure what the issue here is but for a different reason. Was there no other player on the team who could have finished the Fri game?
I wouldn’t get too bothered by these little hiccups in the 1st year of a new pitch limits rule. The 1st year LLI put the rule in for real there were all kinds of hitches in the giddyup but they eventually got worked out. It’s a new world and the rules are going to need to be figgered out and adjusted if necessary.
FWIW, I think I’d have said he was limited to 56 the 2nd day as well.
Yeah, but for the entire season we had been interpreting it as exceeding 59 pitches in two days simply meant a day's rest. So, our coaching staff didn't see it as a problem. In the end, it didn't matter because our relief guy pitched just fine. It seems odd to have a rest period that only covers one exact number of pitches.
It just stands to reason that if the intent was to keep a team from throwing 34 and then 110 then they would have used a number higher than 60. I have to believe the intent of the rule was to keep teams from using the 0-34 count as a loophole. I think it was just badly written. To strictly read "no pitcher may throw more than 60 pitches over two days" you would have to say pitching 110 in a single day would not be allowed under the rule. If you throw 61 pitches on Friday, you've exceeded 60 in a two day period.
However, I'm interested that most here didn't read it as I did.
Root,
Are you saying if a pitcher throws 110 pitches in three days he can throw another 110, in 6 days that's 220 pitches total? Do they do that?
It could actually be 220 pitches in 5 days. Or 330 in 9 days.
That's why I don't like the pitch count rule. Rest has always been more important me than pitch count (within reason). I simply don't think 3 days is enough, and it almost justifies some coaches overthrowing kids. "Hey, these are the guidelines, they must be safe!"
Alabama pitch count rules going into effect next season - 120 outing max - more than 75, then three days rest. Key is that days rest is defined as "calendar" days and given the example that a kid throwing throwing 76 on a Tuesday, cannot pitch again until Saturday (rest days are Wednesday, Thursday and Friday). There are some other break points down to 25 or fewer which requires no rest.
Alabama looks like they have a pretty straight forward simple definition that should not leave much up to interpretation. Has anyone seen the final Texas rules yet?
TPM posted:Root,
Are you saying if a pitcher throws 110 pitches in three days he can throw another 110, in 6 days that's 220 pitches total? Do they do that?
I have only found one pitcher that has been overused like this. He is a senior and was overused as a junior as well. I do have a problem with the days of rest. Every state so far has limited it to three days. I believe someone has to step up and add a day to each of those pitch counts. Most schedules don't lend themselves to the opportunity to do what you mention, however.
roothog66 posted:Stats4Gnats posted:roothog66 posted:
56 is how the site director read it, too. To me this seems intuitively wrong. I had thought it was pretty clear when the rules were written that the purpose of this is entirely indicated with the second sentence and not to limit a pitcher in the above situation to 56 pitches a day after throwing 4. Surely the intent was to stop teams from avoiding the pitch count limits by, say, throwing a kid 34-34-34 pitches in consecutive days without rest. Reading that first line strictly would totally negate the entire chart. Any pitcher throwing 61 pitches in a single game inherently has thrown more than 60 pitches in two days and, thus, violated the rule.
I think if written as to properly articulate the purpose it would have read more like:
"additionally, any pitcher throwing 60 or more pitches in two days must rest a minimum of one day before pitching again."
As interpreted you have an addendum that covers only 60 pitches, no more or no less.
I’m not sure what the issue here is but for a different reason. Was there no other player on the team who could have finished the Fri game?
I wouldn’t get too bothered by these little hiccups in the 1st year of a new pitch limits rule. The 1st year LLI put the rule in for real there were all kinds of hitches in the giddyup but they eventually got worked out. It’s a new world and the rules are going to need to be figgered out and adjusted if necessary.
FWIW, I think I’d have said he was limited to 56 the 2nd day as well.
Yeah, but for the entire season we had been interpreting it as exceeding 59 pitches in two days simply meant a day's rest. So, our coaching staff didn't see it as a problem. In the end, it didn't matter because our relief guy pitched just fine. It seems odd to have a rest period that only covers one exact number of pitches.
It just stands to reason that if the intent was to keep a team from throwing 34 and then 110 then they would have used a number higher than 60. I have to believe the intent of the rule was to keep teams from using the 0-34 count as a loophole. I think it was just badly written. To strictly read "no pitcher may throw more than 60 pitches over two days" you would have to say pitching 110 in a single day would not be allowed under the rule. If you throw 61 pitches on Friday, you've exceeded 60 in a two day period.
However, I'm interested that most here didn't read it as I did.
roothog66 posted:
Yeah, but for the entire season we had been interpreting it as exceeding 59 pitches in two days simply meant a day's rest. So, our coaching staff didn't see it as a problem. In the end, it didn't matter because our relief guy pitched just fine. It seems odd to have a rest period that only covers one exact number of pitches.
How many times during the season did your team play games 2 days in a row?
It just stands to reason that if the intent was to keep a team from throwing 34 and then 110 then they would have used a number higher than 60. I have to believe the intent of the rule was to keep teams from using the 0-34 count as a loophole. I think it was just badly written. To strictly read "no pitcher may throw more than 60 pitches over two days" you would have to say pitching 110 in a single day would not be allowed under the rule. If you throw 61 pitches on Friday, you've exceeded 60 in a two day period.
However, I'm interested that most here didn't read it as I did.
All you can do is make your case to the state assn and hope they rewrite the rule.
The reason most didn't interpret it the same way is because they don't coach in Co.. 
Stats4Gnats posted:roothog66 posted:
Yeah, but for the entire season we had been interpreting it as exceeding 59 pitches in two days simply meant a day's rest. So, our coaching staff didn't see it as a problem. In the end, it didn't matter because our relief guy pitched just fine. It seems odd to have a rest period that only covers one exact number of pitches.
How many times during the season did your team play games 2 days in a row?
It just stands to reason that if the intent was to keep a team from throwing 34 and then 110 then they would have used a number higher than 60. I have to believe the intent of the rule was to keep teams from using the 0-34 count as a loophole. I think it was just badly written. To strictly read "no pitcher may throw more than 60 pitches over two days" you would have to say pitching 110 in a single day would not be allowed under the rule. If you throw 61 pitches on Friday, you've exceeded 60 in a two day period.
However, I'm interested that most here didn't read it as I did.
All you can do is make your case to the state assn and hope they rewrite the rule.
The reason most didn't interpret it the same way is because they don't coach in Co..
Only once in the regular season and then once in the state playoffs. Some of my confusion came from the fact that when they introduced the p/c rules last year, the statement was simply something like "throwing more than 60 pitches in two days will additionally require one day's rest." I think when they finalized it, they just tried to get too specific and wrote an addendum was confusing and that couldn't even really be followed to the letter.
The funny thing is that CHSAA adds this at the bottom of the rules:
"It is strongly encouraged that schools provide an additional day of rest for those pitchers that throw more than 70 pitches.
Coaches must be cognizant of each pitcher’s "fatigue threshold" (can be measured by velocity and accuracy among other factors) and adjust pitches to accommodate, learning what constitutes throwing "hurt" and throwing "injured." Each pitcher will be different in this ability and threshold. In essence, the coach must learn the behaviors of his/her players.
The two advisory committees also recommend that each school develop a season long pitching limit for each player."
If the committee thinks it so necessary to add an extra day of rest, why not just mandate it (as in the Pitch Smart chart they referenced when writing the rule) rather than "strongly suggest."
roothog66 posted:TPM posted:Root,
Are you saying if a pitcher throws 110 pitches in three days he can throw another 110, in 6 days that's 220 pitches total? Do they do that?
I have only found one pitcher that has been overused like this. He is a senior and was overused as a junior as well. I do have a problem with the days of rest. Every state so far has limited it to three days. I believe someone has to step up and add a day to each of those pitch counts. Most schedules don't lend themselves to the opportunity to do what you mention, however.
The Oregon rules, going into effect next season, do mandate 4 days rest after 86 pitches.
All levels 110 pitches/day max (Varsity and Sub‐Varsity)
1‐25 pitches = 0 days rest (Level Zero)
26‐45 pitches = 1 day rest (Level One)
46‐60 pitches = 2 days rest (Level Two)
61‐85 pitches = 3 days rest (Level Three)
86+ pitches = 4 days of rest (Level Four)
*If a pitcher had thrown 61‐85 pitches (Level Three) in the previous game, on his third day of rest he would be eligible to throw a maximum of 45 pitches (Level Two). If he threw less than 25 pitches on that third rest day, he would then be eligible to throw the next day with a 110‐pitch maximum. If he threw 26‐45 pitches on that third rest day, he would need one full day of rest prior to pitching again.
*If a pitcher had thrown 86‐110 pitches (Level Four) in the previous game, on his fourth day of rest he would be eligible to throw a maximum of 25 pitches (Level Zero). Following the 25 pitch day, he would then be eligible to throw the next day with a 110‐pitch maximum.
roothog66 posted:Here are the pitch count rules for Colorado high school baseball:
Pitching limits
Varsity Pitches Required Rest 86-110 3 Days 61-85 2 Days 36-60 1 Day 1-35** - Additionally, no pitcher may throw more than 60 pitches over two days. If they throw 60 pitches in two days, there will be one day of required rest. 0 Days*
Root,
I think you are showing your professional side a bit. The rule is very clear. If you pitch back to back days you are maxed at 60 pitches and a days rest if you hit 60. It's also obvious that the rule is specific to 0 days bracket which is why it does not apply to 110 pitches.
As the rule is written a kid can pitch 29 pitches everyday.
real green posted:roothog66 posted:Here are the pitch count rules for Colorado high school baseball:
Pitching limits
Varsity Pitches Required Rest 86-110 3 Days 61-85 2 Days 36-60 1 Day 1-35** - Additionally, no pitcher may throw more than 60 pitches over two days. If they throw 60 pitches in two days, there will be one day of required rest. 0 Days*
Root,
I think you are showing your professional side a bit. The rule is very clear. If you pitch back to back days you are maxed at 60 pitches and a days rest if you hit 60. It's also obvious that the rule is specific to 0 days bracket which is why it does not apply to 110 pitches.
As the rule is written a kid can pitch 29 pitches everyday.
Actually, it isn't written in the 0 days bracket. It is in a spot after the entire chart. Somehow, when I tried to copy and paste, it kept coming up like this. I feel a better rule would simply be that any pitcher pitching two consecutive days is required at minimum 2 days rest (or one day). I just think, as written, it doesn't accurately reflect what they meant to do. the rules committee wrote it and probably didn't think through the language and, then, officials - who are not part of the rules committee - were left to interpret. Just going quickly through MaxPreps, I found a dozen violations of this addendum when teams played back-to-back. Most were nothing abusive (nothing more than 90 pitches over the two days). Actually, as the rule is written, a kid could throw 30-29-30-29-30, which certainly wasn't contemplated. Now, usually, this doesn't come up, but there are plenty of years in Colorado where rain/snow creates a schedule where teams play several games on consecutive days in Colorado.
