njbb,
You know as well as I do that some players put their own statistics ahead of the success of the team. I happen to think that will be more prevalent in a situation where the team is only a temporary stopping place and where winning is secondary to development.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
njbb,
You know as well as I do that some players put their own statistics ahead of the success of the team. I happen to think that will be more prevalent in a situation where the team is only a temporary stopping place and where winning is secondary to development.
A temporary stopping place? Do you mean like High School, or College which are for a few years, or are you talking about the pro players that are working their way up the ladder together? I had some teammates for upwards of 6 years, and if I had been a better player, I would have had some of them for about 10-12 years.
Some players do put their stats as the #1 priority. Usually it is the parents doing it in Little League, Pony League, High School and College. In pro ball if you act up, you get hit in the wallet.
How many of the ones who got a chance to move up, asked to stay down with their team mates? Nobody pulls a Matt Leinart once they go professional. It doesn't happen too often in college baseball but there are players who will turn down good money and risk their dream of playing pro ball to stay with their team one more year.
Loyalty to the school is a big deal in college and it doesn't end. It isn't perfect and players do switch teams. In pro ball there should be loyalty to the team you are on but let's face it pro ball is a business for both the organization and the players and loyalty to the team is limited. There are players out there playing with the goal of getting a look from another organization because they know there's no room in front of them in their own organization.
Loyalty to the school is a big deal in college and it doesn't end. It isn't perfect and players do switch teams. In pro ball there should be loyalty to the team you are on but let's face it pro ball is a business for both the organization and the players and loyalty to the team is limited. There are players out there playing with the goal of getting a look from another organization because they know there's no room in front of them in their own organization.
The only college baseball players who turn down good money to go back to college are guys who want more money. It does not have anything to do with being a good teammate.
If a pro player gets promoted to the next level and then turns it down, they would not consider him a good teammate, but they might give him a test to see what he had been smoking.
If a pro player gets promoted to the next level and then turns it down, they would not consider him a good teammate, but they might give him a test to see what he had been smoking.
Personally I'd check to see what the ones who go back to school in lieu of big money are smoking. It isn't worth the risk. MLB should be the goal and really big money instead of big money should be a nice side benefit.
Despite our arguing here on the board I've been impressed at the path you and your son have taken, especially considering certain changes that have occurred. You've set a goal and gone after it and I've got to believe he'll end up with a degree and a pro career.
Despite our arguing here on the board I've been impressed at the path you and your son have taken, especially considering certain changes that have occurred. You've set a goal and gone after it and I've got to believe he'll end up with a degree and a pro career.
Of course stats are important to players but there are all types of stats. I think in pro baseball every thing is recorded, every home to first time, did you get a hit, how was it hit, did you move the runner, How you carry yourself, how you handle failure.
Everyone has a job to do and if you do your job and continue to improve you and the team will be successful.
Everyone has a job to do and if you do your job and continue to improve you and the team will be successful.
I nominate this thread for the golden threads board - if we are still gonna have one of those.
I printed it off and had my son read it. Very interesting perspectives about college.
I printed it off and had my son read it. Very interesting perspectives about college.
quote:It doesn't happen too often in college baseball but there are players who will turn down good money and risk their dream of playing pro ball to stay with their team one more year.
The Cajuns #1 pitcher came back for his Sr. year last year, turning down about $50,000 his Jr. year. He felt he owed the team that allowed him to walk on and become the #1. He had a tough last month of the season, probably worrying about the draft, but still got drafted in the 10th round.
quote:Some players do put their stats as the #1 priority. Usually it is the parents doing it in Little League, Pony League, High School and College.
A good reason to keep the book for your team.
I've stayed out of this one until now, because I think I can just about end it.
I watched and covered the New York-Penn League for more than 10 years. That said:
Take your basic .500 team in a top D-I league. You're going to play 30 games in 30 days against your basic .500 NY-P team. It would probably go like this:
Week 1 -- Your college ace would probably keep the NY-P team in check, and the top of your order (using wood) is making good contact, but not getting more than 4-5 singles a game. Your No. 3 starter pitched the game of his life and you beat the NY-P team 2-1, but that's the only win in seven games.
Week 2 -- The college ace had another strong outing, but gave up a couple of long balls because the NY-P guys know he won't come inside unless he's ahead on the count. A couple of the college hitters are zeroing in on fastballs, but aren't getting many to hit when the count is in their favor. Still, though, you squeezed out a win in a kind of a sloppy game, both teams making a lot of errors. But the NY-P guys are pounding everybody but your ace and that's the only win the college guys get.
Week 3 -- The NY-P guys have seen all the college arms, those arms are starting to tire, if only a little, and the results are starting to show. The ace keeps 'em under double digits, but he's the only one. The college guys can't get quality at-bats and are starting to guess on pitches because they're frustrated. None of the games are close.
Week 4 -- And you thought Week 3 was ugly. Sociology lecture, anyone?
College team's final record against NY-P: 2-28.
Team batting average: .085
Team ERA: 8.42
Only college kid to hit a home run: My son. The NY-P team's parent club offered him a contract the day the games ended.
Any questions?
I watched and covered the New York-Penn League for more than 10 years. That said:
Take your basic .500 team in a top D-I league. You're going to play 30 games in 30 days against your basic .500 NY-P team. It would probably go like this:
Week 1 -- Your college ace would probably keep the NY-P team in check, and the top of your order (using wood) is making good contact, but not getting more than 4-5 singles a game. Your No. 3 starter pitched the game of his life and you beat the NY-P team 2-1, but that's the only win in seven games.
Week 2 -- The college ace had another strong outing, but gave up a couple of long balls because the NY-P guys know he won't come inside unless he's ahead on the count. A couple of the college hitters are zeroing in on fastballs, but aren't getting many to hit when the count is in their favor. Still, though, you squeezed out a win in a kind of a sloppy game, both teams making a lot of errors. But the NY-P guys are pounding everybody but your ace and that's the only win the college guys get.
Week 3 -- The NY-P guys have seen all the college arms, those arms are starting to tire, if only a little, and the results are starting to show. The ace keeps 'em under double digits, but he's the only one. The college guys can't get quality at-bats and are starting to guess on pitches because they're frustrated. None of the games are close.
Week 4 -- And you thought Week 3 was ugly. Sociology lecture, anyone?
College team's final record against NY-P: 2-28.
Team batting average: .085
Team ERA: 8.42
Only college kid to hit a home run: My son. The NY-P team's parent club offered him a contract the day the games ended.
Any questions?
nice wrap job OVaman, but you may have posted on the wrong thread 
you took it from U Texas matching up a couple games with a short A team -
to U Toledo playing 30 games in 30 days against the short A league
I'd be interested in your experience though on why that college pitcher who won't throw inside behind in the count in June, but when drafted, signs & reports to his team and in July suddenly he will go inside
btw congrats to your son
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you took it from U Texas matching up a couple games with a short A team -
to U Toledo playing 30 games in 30 days against the short A league
I'd be interested in your experience though on why that college pitcher who won't throw inside behind in the count in June, but when drafted, signs & reports to his team and in July suddenly he will go inside
btw congrats to your son
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Bee> ...
I suspect it is because the college coach is calling the game ... first hand experience watching own son. College coach didn't see many inside fastballs that he liked no matter what the count
quote:I'd be interested in your experience though on why that college pitcher who won't throw inside behind in the count in June, but when drafted, signs & reports to his team and in July suddenly he will go inside
I suspect it is because the college coach is calling the game ... first hand experience watching own son. College coach didn't see many inside fastballs that he liked no matter what the count
quote:I'd be interested in your experience though on why that college pitcher who won't throw inside behind in the count in June, but when drafted, signs & reports to his team and in July suddenly he will go inside
Why?
Aluminum.
quote:Why? . . . Aluminum.
huh?
as needed . . they throw inside FB in summer wood leagues as amatures, don't they?
the implication by OVaman was that a college pitcher would not have the smarts or skill to go there against wood -
I did't cover the NYPenn league for 10 yrs, but have seen a few hundred summer college wood games (including the Cape) and don't agree with that accessment
.
I think that the biggest reason for not pitching inside much in college is that in the majority of programs, the coach calls the game. In pro ball, the catcher and pitcher call the game and are encouraged by player development to pitch inside, and it starts happening the day you arrive.
Cape League pitchers throw a steady diet of inside fastballs...and love doing it.
Now I've gone and done it. I'm sorry, already yet.
College coaches call college games and they want pitchers to work away-away-away and come inside only to surprise them, because a mistake goes 400 feet with metal. Not many college pitchers will come inside behind on the count because the margin for error is so small.
In the NY-P, catchers learn to call ballgames and pitchers learn to work inside consistantly so they can get hitters out inside and outside. If they can't work inside consistantly, hitters can sit on pitches out over the plate and hit them hard and/or a long way. Hitters can't do that if they're conscious of getting sawed off.
Another way to look at it: College coaches know they can get a decent number of hitters out of pitches out of the strike zone. Pros have to get hitters out on balls and strikes.
College coaches call college games and they want pitchers to work away-away-away and come inside only to surprise them, because a mistake goes 400 feet with metal. Not many college pitchers will come inside behind on the count because the margin for error is so small.
In the NY-P, catchers learn to call ballgames and pitchers learn to work inside consistantly so they can get hitters out inside and outside. If they can't work inside consistantly, hitters can sit on pitches out over the plate and hit them hard and/or a long way. Hitters can't do that if they're conscious of getting sawed off.
Another way to look at it: College coaches know they can get a decent number of hitters out of pitches out of the strike zone. Pros have to get hitters out on balls and strikes.
OldVaman:
As with most all generalizations,there's a lot of truth in yours...as well as some notable exceptions. The best college pitchers pitch inside with greater frequency than you're describing....and I think it's the best college pitchers that folks here are theorizing about.
As with most all generalizations,there's a lot of truth in yours...as well as some notable exceptions. The best college pitchers pitch inside with greater frequency than you're describing....and I think it's the best college pitchers that folks here are theorizing about.
quote:Now I've gone and done it
OVaman, and you thought you were putting this thread to sleep
agree, it gets a bit predictable, and scout's point about college coaches is well taken too.quote:work away-away-away and come inside only to surprise
Prepster, good to see you're alive & kickin'
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quote:good to see you're alive & kickin'
You, too, Bee>!!!
I'm sure you're already arranging for us to use one of Georgia Tech's many, palatial, skyboxes when we come there next spring.
If you're coming up a little short on funds for that purpose, I'd suggest that you contact our mutual friend, TigerPawMom. Since Clemson's not having to host UNC this year, I'm sure she'll be eager to chip in and help out.
I have been to Tech, no skyboxes...are you trying to FOOL me? TPM smarter than that!
If I do come, I'll sit in the cheap free seats
If I do come, I'll sit in the cheap free seats
tpm,
our sky boxes are reached via a step ladder the frats leave at the rf wall, right behind the HR fence . . great view, but sitting on a wall can get old . . eh, those are also the free seats
if that's not your cup o tea, Tech reciprocates with ACC and most other opponents for the "player pass list"
Prep, I do see your need,
our fence down first base-line is only about thigh-high, and y'all who
"hang on the fence down the line" keep falling into the field of play
c'mon, blue has a game to do, he can't be continualy calling time to help you back over
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our sky boxes are reached via a step ladder the frats leave at the rf wall, right behind the HR fence . . great view, but sitting on a wall can get old . . eh, those are also the free seats
if that's not your cup o tea, Tech reciprocates with ACC and most other opponents for the "player pass list"
Prep, I do see your need,
our fence down first base-line is only about thigh-high, and y'all who
"hang on the fence down the line" keep falling into the field of play
c'mon, blue has a game to do, he can't be continualy calling time to help you back over
.
The seats may be free but the parking tickets are not. Not much parking around the Tech ball park.
D04, with all the new construction street parking is a bit scarce, tho plenty of free space available in the lots & decks for game day parking
best is the lot overlooking CF with plenty of room to park/tailgate - and just beyond that is a HUGE lot where alot of RV's overnight
oh yea, thanks for the donation if you parked in restricted zones
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best is the lot overlooking CF with plenty of room to park/tailgate - and just beyond that is a HUGE lot where alot of RV's overnight
oh yea, thanks for the donation if you parked in restricted zones
.
B
I was just there for the weekend and didn't know what I was doing. Situation normal. It's a beautiful ballpark though.
I was just there for the weekend and didn't know what I was doing. Situation normal. It's a beautiful ballpark though.
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:
tpm,
if that's not your cup o tea, Tech reciprocates with ACC and most other opponents for the "player pass list"
.
Yes I know as I said the cheap FREE seats. Just hope the parents seats are better than the ones given at FSU, you need binoculars. CU gives seats above the dugout to parents both visiting and home, nice jesture.
Have you ever been to CU games? Have you ever heard about teh Cheap seats, that bus parked behind CF? I understand that is the place to be come gameday. I also understand it is deadly for the visiting team.
That's why the all HATE to play at Clemson!
tpm, right behind your dugout, no binocs necessary
How would you compare the level of play between D1 school and summer league teams like the Cape Cod league?
When I asked my son how his summer team (Chatham A's, Cape Cod League) would fare if you "transplanted" it into his college conference (ACC), his immediate response: "The Cape League team would dominate EVERY ACC team." Having watched both leagues extensively, I'd concur.
Rather than compare rookie teams with D1 teams, What level of play would Cape Cod league match with? Short season,low A? Do these leagues give instruction or work on new skills?
After reading this thread, it sounds like it's quite convincing that the best D1 school's players would be fortunate to be able to carry the bat bags for even the short season rookies. That kind of surprises me since many of these players are 18 and 19 year old players just out of high school as well as quite a few light hitting, over-hyped latin players.
Do colleges still get to play exhibition games against the mlb squads during their spring training?
From my recollection, even against players much superior than short season rookie ball, the college teams acquitted themselves quite well.
Do colleges still get to play exhibition games against the mlb squads during their spring training?
From my recollection, even against players much superior than short season rookie ball, the college teams acquitted themselves quite well.
I think many of the best college pitchers would do just fine.
I also think the majority of the "big bangers" in college would hit a Mendoza-like .100 using wood.
Actually - you dont even have to watch a college team play against a pro-A ball team to watch this.
Just watch a decent collegiate summer league season.
Hitting with wood is a completely different animal - especially when you are facing top pitching at the collegiate or pro level IMO.
I also think the majority of the "big bangers" in college would hit a Mendoza-like .100 using wood.
Actually - you dont even have to watch a college team play against a pro-A ball team to watch this.
Just watch a decent collegiate summer league season.
Hitting with wood is a completely different animal - especially when you are facing top pitching at the collegiate or pro level IMO.
quote:Originally posted by SBK:
After reading this thread, it sounds like it's quite convincing that the best D1 school's players would be fortunate to be able to carry the bat bags for even the short season rookies. That kind of surprises me since many of these players are 18 and 19 year old players just out of high school as well as quite a few light hitting, over-hyped latin players.
Do colleges still get to play exhibition games against the mlb squads during their spring training?
From my recollection, even against players much superior than short season rookie ball, the college teams acquitted themselves quite well.
I can't recall a college team even getting more than a run off in a spring exhibition game. The pro players are usually the bench and minor leaguers in the exhibition games.
Most GA Tech/Braves BC/Red Sox games have been blow outs.
Go to a D1 game and a high A or AA game in the same week. The differences in nearly every aspect of the games are striking. Why would they even be close? The college kids are 18-20 year old part-time amateurs. The pro guys are 22-25 year old full-time professionals.
The pros are bigger, faster, throw farther, harder and hit the ball harder, with wood. It is like comparing, um, Big 10 Golf and the Nationwide Tour. It ain't even close.
SBK,
May I add - many of those "overhyped" Latin players you speak of grew up hitting a baseball with a 2x4.
Not a $350 metal rocket launcher - that can produce 360 foot screaming liners on a check swing. LOL
May I add - many of those "overhyped" Latin players you speak of grew up hitting a baseball with a 2x4.
Not a $350 metal rocket launcher - that can produce 360 foot screaming liners on a check swing. LOL
Its,
Tend to agree. You have to take the wood bats out of the equation for the D1 teams to be competitive with the short season A teams.
One of our local kids did quite well in D1 ball then hit about .125 in the Cape Cod League. Must have been lack of reps though because he was drafted after his senior season and hit .280 or .300ish in short season A, only a bit less than he hit in college with aluminum.
I've seen a fair amount of A games over the last couple years and while they're clearly better at that level than D1 teams there are enough kids out of HS still trying to catch up on the A teams that the D1s wouldn't be completely blown out if the wood bats were taken out of it.
They don't always play the players with the best stats in the minors. They often play a player with more talent who is struggling to learn because they feel that player has more long term potential.
Tend to agree. You have to take the wood bats out of the equation for the D1 teams to be competitive with the short season A teams.
One of our local kids did quite well in D1 ball then hit about .125 in the Cape Cod League. Must have been lack of reps though because he was drafted after his senior season and hit .280 or .300ish in short season A, only a bit less than he hit in college with aluminum.
I've seen a fair amount of A games over the last couple years and while they're clearly better at that level than D1 teams there are enough kids out of HS still trying to catch up on the A teams that the D1s wouldn't be completely blown out if the wood bats were taken out of it.
They don't always play the players with the best stats in the minors. They often play a player with more talent who is struggling to learn because they feel that player has more long term potential.
quote:The pros are bigger, faster, throw farther, harder and hit the ball harder, with wood.
Other than that, the games are pretty similar.
If you take the wood bats out of the equation, the kids out of high school would be hitting better also
Some o0f the Elite teams (HS Kids) from Ontario play the rookie class teams and beat them. They also have played D1 college/D1 JC and beat them as well.
Every spring several Elite teams square off against these teams in Florida.
Every spring several Elite teams square off against these teams in Florida.
Although this is college player they were not playing bench guys.
Senior Chris Emanuele at home plate after homering in the first inning of NU's exhibition game against the Boston Red Sox. Photo by Jim Pierce.
Senior Chris Emanuele started the Northeastern baseball team’s exhibition game against the Boston Red Sox with a blast, homering off of 2005 American League All-Star Matt Clement on the third pitch of the game, but the Huskies eventually fell to the Sox 9-2 Friday night at City of Palms Park in Fort Myers, Fla.
Senior Chris Emanuele at home plate after homering in the first inning of NU's exhibition game against the Boston Red Sox. Photo by Jim Pierce.
Senior Chris Emanuele started the Northeastern baseball team’s exhibition game against the Boston Red Sox with a blast, homering off of 2005 American League All-Star Matt Clement on the third pitch of the game, but the Huskies eventually fell to the Sox 9-2 Friday night at City of Palms Park in Fort Myers, Fla.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Some o0f the Elite teams (HS Kids) from Ontario play the rookie class teams and beat them. They also have played D1 college/D1 JC and beat them as well.
Every spring several Elite teams square off against these teams in Florida.
BHD, not sure what you mean about the comment concerning "rookie class" teams? Are you talking about short season A, like the NY/PENN or teams in the Pioneer and Appalachian leagues. What are you referring to and when were these games played???
He could mean "complex" rookie league, where many hs players go after the draft.Also young latin players and rehab players play there