Every year some of the Elite teams like the Ontario Blue Jays play what were referred to as Rookie class teams. These were the players in A ball 1st year. These games I refered to were in 05 and that is when I stopped following it. OBJ played several minor league / college teams that year and did very well.
Their 05 shedule is still on their site.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
quote:
He could mean "complex" rookie league, where many hs players go after the draft.Also young latin players and rehab players play there


That is what I was thinking also, until I reread the post and it said they play those games "every Spring."

From everything I have seen during Spring training, every player in a minor league organization is assigned to a team and they play every single afternoon following morning practice. It would not be possible for them to be playing extra games against a high school all star group.
BHD, why don't you give me a link to the schedule.
To my knowledge, there isn't a minor league classification of "rookie league" that is made up from guys who played "A" ball the prior year. In fact, Toronto has their minor league schedule for Spring Training posted and it is made up of AAA,AA,high A and low A and there are no players left after that. A team made up of "A" ball players would smoke a group of high school players, even an All Star group.
I think njbb is correct. This could only be players who are in extended Spring training due to injury or failure to be placed on a team following Spring training, combined with some Latin players who are very young. That would not be representative of any minor league team.
Last edited by infielddad
BHD,
Thanks for the link.
I checked the 2005 schedule for the 18 and under team. Played a lot of games but I don't see any games against a minor league team, at any level.
They played plenty of JC's and some 4 year colleges in the MAC. Am I missing something?
Last edited by infielddad
Yes the spring games in Florida are not shown for some reason.
The Rookie team was 1st year A ball players and not injured players. The team for some reason didn't finish the schedule scores in 05 and I can't find the link to 04 which was the year they posted everything including the Minor league games. They have stopped keeping the site up in regards to their schedule. The only thing I can think of is that they lost several players to the JR National team later in the season.
My son played against them in 05 and they had some great players. I know they played several teams 1st rear players which were refered to as Rookie Class teams in the write ups.
I will see if I can find the info.
I am familiar with the Ontario Blue Jays and I have seen them play several times over the past several years in tournaments in Michigan, including AABC Regional Tournaments. They are similar to the elite travel teams that play in the Great Lakes region.

The schedule on that link did not include any MAC teams, however. The Miami University teams were Miami University Community College teams in Ohio. It would be a very rare occasion that an NCAA DI baseball program would compete against a team like this as the game would count against its game limitations, and stats would not count for them. I really don't see any benefit for a DI team to do so.

Spring games in Florida are shown on that schedule; some of them took place at Cocoa Expo.
Last edited by grateful
Spring Training, Clearwater, Florida 18
2004-03-14 G01 - vs. Philadelphia Phillies "A"
L 9-6 stats

2004-03-15 G02 - vs. Indian River Community College
L 20-7 stats

2004-03-17 G03 - vs. Academie Baseball du Canada
L 3-2 stats

2004-03-17 G04 - vs. Academie Baseball du Canada
L 4-0 stats

2004-03-18 G05 - vs. New York Mets "A"
L 3-2 stats

2004-03-19 G06 - vs. Florida Marlins
L 4-0 stats

This is another Elite team. 04 schedule. This team is not as strong as OBJ.
OBJ came in 3rd in their league this last season. I can find lots more teams that played very well against ML A teams.
OBJ beat Connor State the year they won the D1 JC WS.
The question was could D! teams fair well against ML teams and I say yes. I have always believed the jump from college is not that huge. Ayway I hope my son keeps believing that.
OBJ is a top tier team. Look at the tourneys they have won.
quote:
The schedule on that link did not include any MAC teams, however. The Miami University teams were Miami University Community College teams in Ohio.


grateful, thanks for the clarification.
For the games in Fla, during March, that would be in the middle of minor league Spring Training. There would not be any chance they would play a travel team at that point. Those guys are at the field at 7am, practice from 8-11am, or so, take extra work after that, and have daily games at 1pm against other MLB clubs.
BHD, despite how this might have been reported, there is little chance a high school travel team competed against a roster comprised of minor leaguers at any level, especially A ball.
quote:
I have always believed the jump from college is not that huge. Ayway I hope my son keeps believing that.


I think you could be making a huge mistake, if that is your view. I have talked with upwards of 20 or so minor leaguers and read numerous interviews with others. Whether they played at Texas, Vanderbilt, Auburn or other top DI programs, every one has said the jump in the quality of play, of players, and expectation is huge.
Last edited by infielddad
I understand what you are saying but this was 1st year A ball players during the 2 mpnth spring training. At the time they played I did see the rosters and they were ligit players. I assume that is why they called in Rookie Class .

Senior Chris Emanuele at home plate after homering in the first inning of NU's exhibition game against the Boston Red Sox.

This was against the ML club at the same time of year. They held their own for a good part of the game. They had a full roster.
Thank you for posting the 2004 schedule. Using that and your prior posts, I have a sense of the games/competition. In Spring Training, the MLB teams only use designations of Low A to AAA. Low A is the players from the Rookie leagues the prior year, who were lower round picks or free agents, mixed with some very young Latin players.
Either the Phillies, Mets, etc split a squad of those players or played a game with that type of squad.
What you also need to know is that, unfortunately, most of the non Latin players from those Low A teams in Spring Training either get released the first week in April or by June following the draft. Those games would not be played against minor leaguers who get an assignment in April and play either High or Low A Ball for the next 144 games. If your impression is that those games are reflective of the level of play in the minor leagues, you could be making an enormous mistake. What you watched was a group of players who had huge dreams that didn't last more than a few more weeks, in many instances.
Last edited by infielddad
My belief is that if he believes he can do it he will. He has alraedy faced ML players and has done very well.
We have lots of experience with ML players as our city had a team for almost 10 years. We were invoved with them on a daily basis. He threw with them and saw what they had.
He worked out with ML players under Ron Davis ( former NYY great). I will be the last one to tell him he can't do it.
Whats the worst that can happen ? get beat up ! He has done that and still believes.
Bobble, those would have to be second year players unless none of them signed following the previous June's draft. Rookie teams are not formed until after the draft; thus the short season leagues.

There are also several minor leaguers who get released at the end of spring training each spring. Some stay in extended spring training awaiting an assignment or waiting until June to be placed on a short season roster or get released.
quote:
I will be the last one to tell him he can't do it.


BHD, I have absolutely no argument with that statement.
What I am proposing is the view that the "jump isn't significant" may not be helpful. This is not a situation where past experience is a good predictor of future success.
When you get to minor league ball, you have to improve the quality of your play every single day. If you don't, you eventually get passed by others who do and you get released. They play 144 games for a reason. Rest assured that your son, and every other playing minor league ball must have a very positive outlook. While the improvement in the quality of play is significant, some of the players are able to make those adjustments and move up the ladder. Our son has "survived" minor league ball for 3 years. This off season, he conditioned with a passion I have never seen before. There is one reason: he knows he needs to be bigger, stronger, faster, and better to move to the next levels of play. He has absolutely no sense of security that what he did before means anything beginning March 5.
INFD which ML team is your son at? The Jays had their A team here for 10 years until the owners sold it to an outfit in NJ for millions. We also had a Pirate team here for a few years 10 miles from where I live. My son's elite team played there in their ball park for the last 2 years before college.
We have been around ML ball for years and know that it is tough but so is college.
I honesty think that D-1 baseball compare fairly to short season baseball with a light advantage for pro baseball over college. The ideal situation for me is to get a scholarship at a D-1 school, play 3 or four years, and them to sign professional. To sign for professional baseball means 1 to 5 % of chance to become a ML baseball player. Going to school means 90% opportunity of become a professional person, and still the 1-5 % chance of become a ML baseball player.
Last edited by Racab
I believe common sense should tell you that once you get beyond a certain level in the minors, the teams are without a doubt better than the best D1. After all, the minors are composed of the best of these players from years before. They are also comprised of the best players in high school from back when these college players were in high school who have made it through a couple of years of pro ball.

However, I am not convinced that the lowest level of the minors is better than the best D1. The reason is that, while there are some outstanding former college players, there are a lot of very young players labeled with "potential" .

Anyone who is around the game, knows that professional baseball drafts on "potential" and "projection". While it serves them well eventually, the lowest level is filled with these players who are bigger on "potential" than actually "have game".

I'm sure we've all seen guys who get drafted ahead of guys we know can play the game. Unfortunately these guys either couldn't quite run quite fast enough, couldn't throw quite hard enough, or weren't quite big enough. The only thing they can do is play the game.

So until these pro players who are thought to have so much "potential" and "projection" are weeded out, I'll put my money on the top D1 team who are filled with guys who we know can play and compete.
quote:
I honesty think that D-1 baseball compare fairly to short season baseball with a light advantage for pro baseball over college. The ideal situation for me is to get a scholarship at a D-1 school, play 3 or four years, and them to sign professional. To sign for professional baseball means 1 to 5 % of chance to become a ML baseball player. Going to school means 90% opportunity of become a professional person, and still the 1-5 % chance of become a ML baseball player.



Well said, Racab.

It is normal to be curious about D1 compared to minor league.

I wondered the same thing myself, outloud, on this board many years ago.

With some effort on his part, bbscout convinced me otherwise.

The players that start at D1 were usually standout allstars at their high school.

Until you have actually seen that process take place, it doesn't really hit home.

Starters at a D1 were probably the four hole hitter or leading hitter on their high school team.

The same process happens again at the D1.

But, instead of 1 player from the high school team to a D1, there might be three or four drafted into professional baseball.

So, those minor league teams are comprised of the best of the D1's.

Given that a short season team made up of the best players from the D1's, it should not be hard to comprehend that the minor league team is stronger.

Only the best pitchers and hitters survive..............
Last edited by FormerObserver
This topic reminds me of when the great Gretz signed his Pro contract in hockey. Everyone thought he would get killed. Look at Lebron, and crosby. Really not as big a step as people think.
Last edited by BobbleheadDoll
BHD,
Just want to make sure we are still on topic and comparing college and professional baseball??? angry
Look at all those high schoolers since Joe Nuxhall who stepped right in and became stars in MLB.
What was his name...David Clyde???
Let's just say, that based on your experience and my experience, we will agree to disagree. I will rely on my son and his teammates and my own eyes and stand firm in the position that it is at least as big a step as many people think, and much bigger than some think. Wink
quote:
I will rely on my son and his teammates and my own eyes and stand firm in the position that it is at least as big a step as many people think, and much bigger than some think.

DITTO!
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
This topic reminds me of when the great Gretz signed his Pro contract in hockey. Everyone thought he would get killed. Look at Lebron, and crosby. Really not as big a step as people think.


For every Gretsky and Feller and Lebron - there are thousands of guys that couldnt make the "next step" - year after year after year.
In most cases - not even close to the next step.

Comparing amateurs, hitting with aluminum rocket launchers, to Professionals - hitting with wood - even at the A level - is kinda silly IMO.
Last edited by itsinthegame
I am sorry, look like I missunderstood the point. I am not comparing college players to professionals, I am comparing players that signed from HS at 18 years old, and "just drafted" players from college that are playing SS baseball VS Some Juniors and seniors from D-1 baseball. Most of the players playing at SS baseball were playing college 2 weeks before the draft, and some HS players still struggling at SS 3 years after signning.
quote:
quote:
I will rely on my son and his teammates and my own eyes and stand firm in the position that it is at least as big a step as many people think, and much bigger than some think.


DITTO!


DITTO to your DITTO!
quote:
Originally posted by FrankF:
quote:
quote:
I will rely on my son and his teammates and my own eyes and stand firm in the position that it is at least as big a step as many people think, and much bigger than some think.


DITTO!


DITTO to your DITTO!

I'll see your DITTO!! and raise you two DITTOS!!

I am not saying excelling or contributing at the collegiate level is not difficult, thrilling or rewarding on a personal level for the player or his family. It is, very much so. Maybe 8-10% of college d1 players turn professional each year. Last time I checked, 100% of players in short season or rookie leagues were professional players. I don't think Major League Baseball drafts the middle 10% either. Do the math, as they say. Smile
Here's a nice article about transition from juco to D1 and the "adjustment"

Byrns making smooth transition from junior college to Division I
by george watson | AVALANCHE-JOURNAL

Past rosters of the Texas Tech baseball program are lined with junior college players who failed to make the adjustment to Division I baseball. They're also full of players who not only made the adjustment but flourished.

Junior outfielder Geoff Byrns appears, at least early in the 2007 season, to be moving toward the latter. By doing so, he's providing even more potential to a Tech lineup already laced with power hitters.

"I've just been looking forward to this season as a learning experience for me," said Byrns, who transferred to Tech from Chabot (Calif.) Junior College. "My job is to get on base and expand the lineup and create some frustration for the pitchers, and be just one more tough (at-bat)."
And perhaps one of the most impressive aspects of Byrns' adjustment is that he's also having to get used to a new position. He played first base at Chabot, where as a sophomore he hit 17 home runs and drove in 72 runs, earning him the All-Coast Conference Player of the Year and Northern California Player of the Year honors as well as the Rawlings "Big Stick" award.

Only seven games into the season, junior college transfer Geoff Byrns is one of the most potent hitters in the Texas Tech Lineup.

But with sophomore James Leverton established at first and sophomore all-American Roger Kieschnick moving from left field to right, the coaching staff decided to give him a shot at left, and he adjusted well enough to earn the start on opening day.

Those junior college numbers, however, didn't distinguish him from hundreds of other junior college transfers who put up big numbers only to come to Tech and struggle in Division I baseball.

His play on the field, however, has.
Heading into this weekend's Midland College Classic, Byrns is the only Red Raider to hit safely in all seven games this season, and he is currently second on the team with a .393 batting average. During the four games of the Red Raider Classic last weekend, he hit .467 (7-for-15).

With those kind of numbers, he could fall into a third category - players who put up good numbers as juniors and left for the major leagues after just one season.

"So far, he's done OK," Tech head coach Larry Hays said. "It's a little adjustment period and some handle it better than others. You look at a guy like Joe Dillon who came here and hit six home runs his first year and 33 the next, so there is an adjustment there. The upside to junior college kids is they're older and they've been knocked around enough to where it's easier for them to adjust. But you may only have them for one year, so that's the downside."

Right now, however, Byrns is having too much fun. He credits this past summer's experience in the Alaska League with the Alaska Goldpanners, as well as the increase in level of coaching between junior college and Division I, as two reasons his adjustment has been, to this point, fairly pain-free.

"Only a handful of junior college guys were up there and the guys we saw were from Arizona State, Stanford and Nebraska," Byrns said of the Alaska League. "That really prepared me for this season and just built my confidence up a little bit knowing I could play with these guys. The main reason you go to Division I is the good coaching and we get a little bit better coaching up here, and that's prepared me to play in the outfield before."

And as long as he keeps going, he'll definitely end up on the list of more memorable players to wear the scarlet and black.
To comment on this story:
george.watson@lubbockonline.com 766-2166
patrick.gonzales@lubbockonline.com 766-8735
This is like comparing apples to oranges because of the bats. Why not use the wood bat summer college leagues like the Cape Cod league, which is made up of the best college players and compare it with the minor leagues.
Agreed on the bat, njbb.

I've watched two summers of collegiate league with the wooden bat.

And, then the change, going back to aluminum in the spring.

I'd guess that the collegiate leagues might bear some similarities to the minor league short season.
I too am of the opinion that the pro level, any pro level is better than any college level.

I’ll even go with the percentages regarding college players who will turn pro in any given year. However there are some college teams that will produce a good number of pro players. It’s just that the soph and Fresh class is not eligible to sign with a pro club.

There are college teams who will have a couple or more players each year. Take this times the four classes and a top level college team actually can have 8 to 12 future pro players. The short season team will have 25 or more pro players all in there first year and some will be top high school draft picks.

So the above reasonable (I think) numbers… show that the pro team is much deeper, but it also shows that in a given game, the college team can put 9 guys on the field who will be pro players. Then it depends on who the college players are. For example… Vanderbilt this year has two players that are thought to be possible first pick of the next two drafts. There is NO pro team that is likely to have that on a short season team. Last year North Carolina had a guy who was in the major leagues the same year he pitched in college. So I guess one would have to say, he had a chance to beat a short season team that same year. The difference is… Andrew Miller couldn’t pitch every game of a series. But then again North Carolina had another first rounder on their staff.

Anyway, those who claim pro ball is better… I agree completely. Those who say the top D1 Colleges would not be able to compete in a short series… I disagree completely.

A first rounder is a first rounder! Some of them come out of the top DI programs every year. While some DI players will not play pro ball, they still play the game well enough to compete in any given game. First rounders coming out of small college or high school do not have the supporting cast to do the same thing unless they have a pitcher who is dominate (a first round pitcher). The pitcher is the one guy that can equalize everything.

IMO
One game/short series... could be very competitive

Full season... Pro level would dominate!

Yes... It's a big step up for most anyone!

Some college players will skip the lowest level.

The best pitchers coming out of college or high school often dominate the lower levels of pro ball
PG,
Ya know, common sense has messed up plenty of good arguments. Smile

Another way to look at it would be to ask oneself how effective Verlander would have been against short season A players during his last season in college.

Taking his 2003 season as being more representative he had a 7-6 record and a 2.40 ERA at Old Dominion. In his first season of pro ball he was 9-2 with a 1.67 ERA at the advanced A level then dominated AA even more before being promoted to the bigs.

Obviously he's an exceptional talent but it makes the point that the best don't always turn pro right after HS or play at the lower levels of pro ball out of college.

Generally speaking the best players out of our HS league go to college rather than turning pro out of HS although a few, not necessarily the most talented, do sign out of HS and our league produces some of the most talented players anywhere.

It might surprise some that the player who was probably the most talented in the league, Robert Stock, (went to college) was not the ace on his HS team and that he hit only about half the home runs that the league's leader, also a junior last season did. The ace went to college.
Last edited by CADad
Huskies play Boston Red Sox today
The baseball team faces the Boston Red Sox today at 1 p.m. at City of Palms Park in Ft. Myers, Florida. The Huskies will start junior Kris Dabrowiecki against 2003 World Series MVP Josh Beckett. It is the fifth time the Huskies have played the Red Sox in an exhibition game and the fourth time in spring training. Last season, the Huskies scored a pair of runs off the Red Sox, including a Chris Emanuele homer off Matt Clement.

Northeastern plays Red Sox today. The results should be interesting. Starting pitcher is from my area.
Boston Red Sox 11, Huskies 0
March 1, 2007
City of Palms Park (Ft. Myers, FL)

The Northeastern University pitching staff no-hit the Boston Red Sox through three innings and David Gustafson and James Donaldson got hits in the game, but the Huskies eventually lost, 11-0, to the Boston Red Sox on Thursday in an exhibition game at City of Palms Park in Fort Myers, Fla.

Gustafson, a redshirt freshman, hit a line-drive single to right center field on the first pitch of the game from 2003 World Series MVP Josh Beckett. Gustafson walked in his only other plate appearance and was the only player on the Huskies to reach base multiple times. Donaldson had the only other hit for the Huskies, smacking a line drive to right field to lead off the third inning against Craig Breslow.

The Husky pitching staff got off to an impressive start in the game. Junior Kris Dabrowiecki, sophomore Trevor Smith and junior Bobby Carrington combined for three shut-out, no-hit innings to begin the game. The Husky hurlers held the Red Sox hitless for three-and-two-thirds innings before Alex Ochoa doubled down the line off Charly Bashara.

Dabrowiecki started the game for the Huskies and pitched two-thirds of an inning, allowing no hits. He struck out J.D. Drew and then was relieved by Smith, who promptly struck out Mike Lowell. Smith retired all four batters that he faced and struck out a pair. Carrington followed Smith and also recorded a strikeout.

Non-roster invitee Scott White broke the game open for the Red Sox with a grand slam in the bottom of the sixth inning.

The Huskies are back in action to start their regular season on Saturday with a doubleheader vs. Indiana-Purdue at IMG Academies in Bradelton, Fla. The first game begins at 11:30 a.m.

• Box score (mlb.com)
quote:
Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Boston Red Sox 11, Huskies 0
March 1, 2007

The Northeastern University pitching staff no-hit the Boston Red Sox through three innings


"no-hit the Red Sox...thru 3 innings" Roll Eyes

Not sure I've ever heard that expression before. Maybe "held hitless" would've been more appropriate!
Didnt Miami beat the Florida Marlins a few years back?

I would say that any college team with a number 1 overall type pitcher, (price, miller, etc) would have a chance at beating any minor league team. However, position for position the any high A team is gonna be better than any college team no matter what.
Walawala ...
quote:
I would say that any college team with a number 1 overall type pitcher, (price, miller, etc) would have a chance at beating any minor league team


Respectfully disagree with you on this one. I do believe that a quality college pitcher and team could beat some of the lower level minor league teams ... rookie (many high school age players), short season (many college level players), and maybe even some low A teams where there are a lot of young players. But beyond that, I really don't think a college program with even the best pitcher is quite ready to beat 'any' minor league team. We have to remember that the minor league levels, especially AA and AAA, are stacked with very mature players, some in their late 20's as well as younger players who have been playing pro ball since they were 16 or 17 (speaking here of the Latin players).

Mr FB.M and I were just discussing this Sat over dinner while watching a super regional and despite how good these college teams are, how good their pitching is, the level of competition at high A, AA, and AAA is considerably higher than the best college baseball ... IMHO. The speed of the game, the savvy of the players, the plate discipline, the pitchers' physical maturity, etc., takes a giant leap at the higher levels of pro ball ... kind of like fielding a freshman high school team against a varsity team made up of only top senior players. The physical and mental maturity means a lot.

Again, JMHO FWIW

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