Would love to hear some opinions on how the various stages of Minor League Ball compare to a large D1 school (like SEC, Big 12, ACC). Talent level of players, conditioning, etc..
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
The #1 pitcher at my sons school was drafted in June. It is a top 40 program in a weak conference, ranked in the teens most of the year. Drafted in 2004 and 2005, cudda pitched for anyone. He spent the summer in Low A and pitched about 45 innings. Most of his stats were nearly identical from spring to summer, from strikeouts to walks, K's per 9 innings, ERA, BA against, all almost the same.
I doubt any college situation approaches a professional level much above Low A, given the fact that most AA guys are older, sometimes much older, than college age.
Proball is hard to compare due to the bats. If you look at the batting averages in the Cape League, the best there is, you see lots that begin with .100 and .200. I'd be curious as to others opinions, Fungo?
I doubt any college situation approaches a professional level much above Low A, given the fact that most AA guys are older, sometimes much older, than college age.
Proball is hard to compare due to the bats. If you look at the batting averages in the Cape League, the best there is, you see lots that begin with .100 and .200. I'd be curious as to others opinions, Fungo?
.
Good question...
When someone smarter than me answers this question please include a discussion of development.
How does the player development in high/mid DI compare to A Ball?
Thanks.
.
Good question...
When someone smarter than me answers this question please include a discussion of development.
How does the player development in high/mid DI compare to A Ball?
Thanks.
.
Observer
The two entities have different goals, products and resources.
College baseball is 4 seasons playing in 5 years, if you are lucky, gets all the players MLB can't sign, needs to win right now, not next year. Oh yeah, and you better be pulling down 15 or 18 hours per semester too, with NCAA mandated practice limits.
Proball can last 20 years. They want to win, but realize winning is a byproduct of developing talented players for the next level, and the next, and the next, without career threatening injury.
Between spring training, the summer season, off-season follow-up workouts, instructional leagues, international winter ball opportunities and no schoolwork, proball is hands down the development oppotunity of choice. There is no comparison. Apples and oranges, imo. One is full time, the other part time
The two entities have different goals, products and resources.
College baseball is 4 seasons playing in 5 years, if you are lucky, gets all the players MLB can't sign, needs to win right now, not next year. Oh yeah, and you better be pulling down 15 or 18 hours per semester too, with NCAA mandated practice limits.
Proball can last 20 years. They want to win, but realize winning is a byproduct of developing talented players for the next level, and the next, and the next, without career threatening injury.
Between spring training, the summer season, off-season follow-up workouts, instructional leagues, international winter ball opportunities and no schoolwork, proball is hands down the development oppotunity of choice. There is no comparison. Apples and oranges, imo. One is full time, the other part time
I know the B'Jays GM has said many times that the very top DI program would not be competitive even if short season rookie ball. Talking with a lot of my son's teammates, two of whom attended UT and others who went to Stanford, UCLA, and Vanderbilt, they all agree with that assessment. Some of the stated reasons include:
On the hitting side, in professional ball, you have nine hitters who were the top hitters in college or high school. As a pitcher, you really cannot pitch around anyone and there is no place in the order where you get a "breather." A pitcher is required to maintain focus and effectiveness against every hitter. Even those batting 7-9 in the order were usually 2-5 hitters on their college team or very top DI recruits out of high school.
From a hitters view, every pitcher you see was a top pitcher in his league. If you see a starter and two relievers in a minor league game, they most likely were all #1 starters in college, they all can spot the ball usually, throw hard and have command.
Finally on the defensive side, with wood, infielders quickly find the need to charge balls more often, cannot wait at all for the ball to come to you and you are making throws from places you never had to in college.
In minor league ball, the players are bigger, stronger and faster than even the best college team because they were each usually the best on their college team. As you move through the minors, the game continues to get faster, the players stronger and the skillset much more accomplished.
On the hitting side, in professional ball, you have nine hitters who were the top hitters in college or high school. As a pitcher, you really cannot pitch around anyone and there is no place in the order where you get a "breather." A pitcher is required to maintain focus and effectiveness against every hitter. Even those batting 7-9 in the order were usually 2-5 hitters on their college team or very top DI recruits out of high school.
From a hitters view, every pitcher you see was a top pitcher in his league. If you see a starter and two relievers in a minor league game, they most likely were all #1 starters in college, they all can spot the ball usually, throw hard and have command.
Finally on the defensive side, with wood, infielders quickly find the need to charge balls more often, cannot wait at all for the ball to come to you and you are making throws from places you never had to in college.
In minor league ball, the players are bigger, stronger and faster than even the best college team because they were each usually the best on their college team. As you move through the minors, the game continues to get faster, the players stronger and the skillset much more accomplished.
Infielddad is right. I go to a college game and look down at most of the players. I go to a minor league spring traing game where you can basicly sit next to the bench, and I look up at most of them. They are huge.
quote:Originally posted by Dad04:
Infielddad is right. I go to a college game and look down at most of the players. I go to a minor league spring traing game where you can basicly sit next to the bench, and I look up at most of them. They are huge.
Obviously you never stood next to any of the Georgia Tech players, they are HUGE.
I have no answer other than the fact that I saw some games this year in the ACC and CWS that were better than some MLB games.
quote:How does the player development in high/mid DI compare to A Ball?
Comparing the two is really no comparison. The minor league player does nothing other than eat/sleep and play baseball. In Spring training they are on the field 7-8 hours per day, 6-7 days per week working on skills, changes and nuances to the game to allow them to adapt. When not in formal practice, they are in the cages or taking extra fungos. If they stay at the skill level they were in college, a player will be shown the door quickly, unless they have a lot of bonus money. I watched one player who was a high pick and all SEC selection completely rework his swing this year. Had been a .350 plus hitter in college with metal. Was struggling just below .200 heading into July this year. Worked countless hours on removing a loop that did not get exposed in college but did with wood and better pitching. Amazing to see him adjust, shorten his swing and be so direct to the ball, and have success afterward. In college ball, the talented players can get away with flaws. In professional ball, many struggle for the very first time because those flaws get exposed.
TPM
Better played or more fun?
IFD
Experts tell me the wood bat is the seperator of good swings. Kids swinging linearly with metal in college that don't adapt to rotational in pro ball quickly fall behind.
quote:I have no answer other than the fact that I saw some games this year in the ACC and CWS that were better than some MLB games.
Better played or more fun?
IFD
quote:I watched one player who was a high pick and all SEC selection completely rework his swing this year. Had been a .350 plus hitter in college with metal. Was struggling just below .200 heading into July this year. Worked countless hours on removing a loop that did not get exposed in college but did with wood and better pitching.
Experts tell me the wood bat is the seperator of good swings. Kids swinging linearly with metal in college that don't adapt to rotational in pro ball quickly fall behind.
I think Infield dad summed it up and I agree. I'll just add a few observations in my short tenure as a minor leaguer’s dad (short “A”) whose son played three years in the SEC. But.. BBScout needs to weigh in because he would be the one that could give you the straight scoop. From my perspective and I think my son’s, the three obvious differences are WOOD, MONEY, and NO ACADEMIC DISTRACTIONS.
The players are totally focused on baseball. That’s good because they suddenly realize they have a lot to learn. Wood and great pitching force hitters to adjust. Speed and strong arms modify the defense and the running game. The money adds a new dimension to the personal life for many of the players that are just coming of age. $1,100.00 is not a great deal of money but add that with a signing bonus that many players received and it allows the players to experience some things that maybe they didn’t in college. Players get few breaks from baseball and the long bus rides to and from the games are a reality. Players are basically transients during the season. They wake up to a new word each day and the only thing they are sure of is they are going to play baseball somewhere.
As far as talent goes I would have to say the minors would dominate. I was always led to believe the major D-1’s could compete with the “A” and “AA” teams....Now, I don’t think so. Sure there are college pitchers that can compete and college hitters that compete but I’m not sure the teams could match up ....depth is the difference.
Fungo
The players are totally focused on baseball. That’s good because they suddenly realize they have a lot to learn. Wood and great pitching force hitters to adjust. Speed and strong arms modify the defense and the running game. The money adds a new dimension to the personal life for many of the players that are just coming of age. $1,100.00 is not a great deal of money but add that with a signing bonus that many players received and it allows the players to experience some things that maybe they didn’t in college. Players get few breaks from baseball and the long bus rides to and from the games are a reality. Players are basically transients during the season. They wake up to a new word each day and the only thing they are sure of is they are going to play baseball somewhere.
As far as talent goes I would have to say the minors would dominate. I was always led to believe the major D-1’s could compete with the “A” and “AA” teams....Now, I don’t think so. Sure there are college pitchers that can compete and college hitters that compete but I’m not sure the teams could match up ....depth is the difference.
Fungo
Have to add the Latin professional players to the mix of minor league talent.
In college, one or two or three on a team get a chance to be paid to play professionally.
As a professional player, you ALL get paid because someone thinks you have some skills projected to the next level.
In college, one or two or three on a team get a chance to be paid to play professionally.
As a professional player, you ALL get paid because someone thinks you have some skills projected to the next level.
I agree with Infielddad very much. D1 teams can't compete in a short season league, let alone full season "A" ball. As Bill mentioned, every player on the pro team was a solid player to star on his college team and all 10 pitchers were the studs on their college teams. Also, the kids in "A" ball are out of college and for the most part are 22-23 years of age who were studs on their college teams when they were 19-20. They now have about 500-600 at bats or 200 innings pitched in pro ball and anyone that thinks a college team can go into a league like that and compete is dreaming.
As Fungo mentioned, the young men in pro ball don't have to go to classes anymore or study for exams. They just eat, sleep and go to the park and play. They also play 140 games as opposed to the 55-60 played in college. They play about 15 games in the spring and then another 30 in instructional ball, and after one season in pro ball, the player is much better than he was in college. As far as wood goes, I don't see a big difference in the hitters once they get a couple hundred AB's under their belt. The first summer can be hard if the player does not have much experience with wood. The other difference is that .330 is a nice solid BA in college and .270 is considered a nice solid average in the minors.
As Fungo mentioned, the young men in pro ball don't have to go to classes anymore or study for exams. They just eat, sleep and go to the park and play. They also play 140 games as opposed to the 55-60 played in college. They play about 15 games in the spring and then another 30 in instructional ball, and after one season in pro ball, the player is much better than he was in college. As far as wood goes, I don't see a big difference in the hitters once they get a couple hundred AB's under their belt. The first summer can be hard if the player does not have much experience with wood. The other difference is that .330 is a nice solid BA in college and .270 is considered a nice solid average in the minors.
I forgot to mention one more thing. The cream of the crop high school players never see college, as they recieve large bonus' to sign. They are kids who would have been All Americans, but are instead playing pro ball and the D1 teams would be competing against them too along with the college players who have signed. No contest. Just watching the Braves and see kids like Francoeur. McCann and Langerhans who would just be Seniors in college if they had gone to school and stayed there.
Very interesting discussion. This leads to a question in my mind. Is college ball even a realistic developmental path to the pros? Thus, are guys who are getting drafted out of college more than likely the guys who would have been drafted out of high school anyways but chose to attend college? In other words, if you were not a pro prospect in high school, are you more than likely not a pro prospect after your college experience?
Yep, I agree CD, it is an interesting thread that I wondered about several years ago.
Long ago, I took bbscouts word for it that college was not comparable to minor leagues, but at the time, it was difficult for me to accept, because it is widely accepted (incorrectly) that there are similarities to A or AA ball and the major D1 conferences.
I also believe that the definition of "development" evolves as players pass through the 8-10, 13-14, 15-16, high school and college ages on to the minor leagues.
So, when a high school parent asks whether a particular college or minor league organization is a better development option, I don't really know how to answer that, because, in my mind, I see them looking back and trying to project the future development in college or the minors based on what they have seen previously.
I think, with the exception of pitchers and hitting, that by the time players reach a D1 level, that the development is largely complete and players developed skills are refined further based on the talent level they face.
I think in general this is true.
I think in general this is true, but even though a restatement of the first sentence, I don't think it is to the same degree.
I see a lot of young still growing bean pole pitchers that may not be physically mature until as late as their junior year.
One of the questions I asked bbscout, a long time ago, was how long does a typical high school player play and a college junior or senior play in the minors before making it to the major leagues.
Because I was secretly, at the time, hoping my son would go to college, I was hoping the answer was substantially shorter than what I received.
bbscout said that on average the typical high school drafted player spends 4-5 years in the minor leagues and the college drafted player spends 3-4 years.
So, a high school drafted player might be 23 and a college draftee 25 by the time they reach the major leagues.
So, by inference, it was very clear to me that something happens in the minor leagues that does not happen in college.
As my son went through his first year of intrasquads, I realized that the talent level much stronger overall, but I still saw players that I did not believe had the skills to play professional baseball.
During the past year, I have realized that many other factors enter into the equation.
Professional baseball is a profit making venture. So, and I learned this from bbscout and have now observed this for a few drafts, they try to pick players that will have the ability to play in the major leagues as soon as possible.
So, if a player they like can go to a major conference and compete, it costs professional baseball nothing to watch them develop for three years.
Then, when they draft the 21 year old college junior, they get a prospect that has three more year of maturity, used to traveling, and has faced the highest level of competion available short of the minor leagues.
So, it costs money to keep a player in the minor leagues, not much per player, but multiply that times about 200.
For a player where there is some doubt, going to college can be revealing to professioinal scouts.
One thing I have noticed, and this is debated after each draft, is the number of college v. high school players drafted through the first ten rounds.
Since my son is a catcher, I watch the draft by that position, and I saw a lot of college catchers drafted in the first 10 rounds this past year.
Each position and player develop offensively and defensively at different rates, and it seems that catchers take the longest to enter the major leagues.
So, while the decision was made to attend college solely on fit (and to frustrate the academcians, academics weren't even a thought) , it seems that criteria may be sufficient to consider these other more subtle factors, too.
Looking back, I think it is important to note that the apprenticeship for professional baseball is 5-7 years out of high school.
And now to placate (frustrating me) the academicians, am very glad my son is getting some college behind him.
Guess what, he now knows for himself that it is a long way to professional baseball.
And for those whose sons are in the minor leagues out of high school, they are likely there because they are viewed as being ready to enter the major leagues sooner, rather than later.
In summary, it did not go unobserved by this observer that bbscout's son attended college first.
You can observe a lot by watching is no BS.
Long ago, I took bbscouts word for it that college was not comparable to minor leagues, but at the time, it was difficult for me to accept, because it is widely accepted (incorrectly) that there are similarities to A or AA ball and the major D1 conferences.
I also believe that the definition of "development" evolves as players pass through the 8-10, 13-14, 15-16, high school and college ages on to the minor leagues.
So, when a high school parent asks whether a particular college or minor league organization is a better development option, I don't really know how to answer that, because, in my mind, I see them looking back and trying to project the future development in college or the minors based on what they have seen previously.
I think, with the exception of pitchers and hitting, that by the time players reach a D1 level, that the development is largely complete and players developed skills are refined further based on the talent level they face.
quote:Thus, are guys who are getting drafted out of college more than likely the guys who would have been drafted out of high school anyways but chose to attend college?
I think in general this is true.
quote:In other words, if you were not a pro prospect in high school, are you more than likely not a pro prospect after your college experience?
I think in general this is true, but even though a restatement of the first sentence, I don't think it is to the same degree.
I see a lot of young still growing bean pole pitchers that may not be physically mature until as late as their junior year.
One of the questions I asked bbscout, a long time ago, was how long does a typical high school player play and a college junior or senior play in the minors before making it to the major leagues.
Because I was secretly, at the time, hoping my son would go to college, I was hoping the answer was substantially shorter than what I received.
bbscout said that on average the typical high school drafted player spends 4-5 years in the minor leagues and the college drafted player spends 3-4 years.
So, a high school drafted player might be 23 and a college draftee 25 by the time they reach the major leagues.
So, by inference, it was very clear to me that something happens in the minor leagues that does not happen in college.
As my son went through his first year of intrasquads, I realized that the talent level much stronger overall, but I still saw players that I did not believe had the skills to play professional baseball.
During the past year, I have realized that many other factors enter into the equation.
Professional baseball is a profit making venture. So, and I learned this from bbscout and have now observed this for a few drafts, they try to pick players that will have the ability to play in the major leagues as soon as possible.
So, if a player they like can go to a major conference and compete, it costs professional baseball nothing to watch them develop for three years.
Then, when they draft the 21 year old college junior, they get a prospect that has three more year of maturity, used to traveling, and has faced the highest level of competion available short of the minor leagues.
So, it costs money to keep a player in the minor leagues, not much per player, but multiply that times about 200.
For a player where there is some doubt, going to college can be revealing to professioinal scouts.
One thing I have noticed, and this is debated after each draft, is the number of college v. high school players drafted through the first ten rounds.
Since my son is a catcher, I watch the draft by that position, and I saw a lot of college catchers drafted in the first 10 rounds this past year.
Each position and player develop offensively and defensively at different rates, and it seems that catchers take the longest to enter the major leagues.
So, while the decision was made to attend college solely on fit (and to frustrate the academcians, academics weren't even a thought) , it seems that criteria may be sufficient to consider these other more subtle factors, too.
Looking back, I think it is important to note that the apprenticeship for professional baseball is 5-7 years out of high school.
And now to placate (frustrating me) the academicians, am very glad my son is getting some college behind him.
Guess what, he now knows for himself that it is a long way to professional baseball.
And for those whose sons are in the minor leagues out of high school, they are likely there because they are viewed as being ready to enter the major leagues sooner, rather than later.
In summary, it did not go unobserved by this observer that bbscout's son attended college first.
You can observe a lot by watching is no BS.
ClevelandDad
A while back we looked at the 2004 All Star teams. Who went to college and who did not. Slightly more players did not attend college than did attend. I think around 55% not attending.
Generally speaking the most talented players turn pro after high school. Plenty of kids turn pro after (some) college and have nice careers.
Alex Gordon, Nebraska 3B, was not drafted from HS. He just signed for something like $4,500,000 out of college as the 2nd overall pick. 20 of the first 30 picks this year were college players. They are not being paid $1,000,000+ each to fill rosters on short season teams. They are prospects for now.
There are exceptions, but I still think that the minor leagues develop players better than colleges.
That being said, major league baseball has shown a preference to allow right handed pitchers to (or not to) in college, weeding out the geneticly less sturdy with multiple 100 inning seasons plus summer and fall ball, with the survivors getting picked after two, three or four years. Zero dollars invested as the strongest have emerged.
A while back we looked at the 2004 All Star teams. Who went to college and who did not. Slightly more players did not attend college than did attend. I think around 55% not attending.
Generally speaking the most talented players turn pro after high school. Plenty of kids turn pro after (some) college and have nice careers.
Alex Gordon, Nebraska 3B, was not drafted from HS. He just signed for something like $4,500,000 out of college as the 2nd overall pick. 20 of the first 30 picks this year were college players. They are not being paid $1,000,000+ each to fill rosters on short season teams. They are prospects for now.
There are exceptions, but I still think that the minor leagues develop players better than colleges.
That being said, major league baseball has shown a preference to allow right handed pitchers to (or not to) in college, weeding out the geneticly less sturdy with multiple 100 inning seasons plus summer and fall ball, with the survivors getting picked after two, three or four years. Zero dollars invested as the strongest have emerged.
Fo, For a former observer, I think you have been listening to bbscout too much. I am glad you noticed (observed) that my son went to college. He will have his degree this year and his older brother and sister have theirs already. bbscout barely got through high school.
ClevelandDad,
Great post!
After watching a year of college baseball, it is not too hard to figure out who will be drafted and who will not, and whether they will be higher, mid or lower picks. I would say most of the higher picks would have been or were high picks out of HS to begin with. Many at son's school, better pick than in HS. The one thing I have noticed is that many players coming out of college might get a year or two in before some type of nagging injury shows up. I do believe this occurs because they hide injuries during college so that they will be drafted. Pitchers in college might pitch more innings in 3 years than if they were drafted out of HS during those three years. An important consideration.
Dad04,
I don't always think the best players are drafted out of HS, I think the most signable are. JMO.
Great post!
After watching a year of college baseball, it is not too hard to figure out who will be drafted and who will not, and whether they will be higher, mid or lower picks. I would say most of the higher picks would have been or were high picks out of HS to begin with. Many at son's school, better pick than in HS. The one thing I have noticed is that many players coming out of college might get a year or two in before some type of nagging injury shows up. I do believe this occurs because they hide injuries during college so that they will be drafted. Pitchers in college might pitch more innings in 3 years than if they were drafted out of HS during those three years. An important consideration.
Dad04,
I don't always think the best players are drafted out of HS, I think the most signable are. JMO.
C"Dad, I will be waiting for the Oct. 17 summary. Wake me up if necessary!
You raise another really great question/observation. Just my view of things, but there are plenty of players who get drafted out of college who didn't even have a look out of high school. One reason is players improve/develop an enormous amount from ages 19 to 22. More importantly is the fact that boys become men during that time. When mine graduated HS he was 5'11" and weighed about 155 lbs. In the next 3 years he went to just under 6'1" and put on 25lbs through growth and weight training.
I do not think strength can be underestimated and do not think the changes that occur in a college program can be overestimated. IMO, by the time players are 22, a scout has a lot better chance of projection. When they are 18, unless they have developed early, the chances to project correctly are minimized. I imagine there are stats on the percentage of players not drafted from high school who are from college. In our house, that percentage is 100. 
You raise another really great question/observation. Just my view of things, but there are plenty of players who get drafted out of college who didn't even have a look out of high school. One reason is players improve/develop an enormous amount from ages 19 to 22. More importantly is the fact that boys become men during that time. When mine graduated HS he was 5'11" and weighed about 155 lbs. In the next 3 years he went to just under 6'1" and put on 25lbs through growth and weight training.
I do not think strength can be underestimated and do not think the changes that occur in a college program can be overestimated. IMO, by the time players are 22, a scout has a lot better chance of projection. When they are 18, unless they have developed early, the chances to project correctly are minimized. I imagine there are stats on the percentage of players not drafted from high school who are from college. In our house, that percentage is 100.
Great stuff everyone! Here are a few thoughts I have gleaned from reading this thread:
Proposition: No D1 team could compete against a minor league team -
Why -
1) All minor league guys are prospects whereas only a few of the D1 guys at best are prospects
2) The minor leaguers work on their craft all day long as opposed to part time in college
3) In general, the minor league guys are more physically mature.
Based on the above responses, it would seem that if you get stronger in college and have/develop the requisite baseball skills, that you can become a prospect even though you may not have been drafted out of high school.
Proposition: No D1 team could compete against a minor league team -
Why -
1) All minor league guys are prospects whereas only a few of the D1 guys at best are prospects
2) The minor leaguers work on their craft all day long as opposed to part time in college
3) In general, the minor league guys are more physically mature.
Based on the above responses, it would seem that if you get stronger in college and have/develop the requisite baseball skills, that you can become a prospect even though you may not have been drafted out of high school.
Well summarized ClevelandDad.
And an important point from TPM too.
quote:I don't think the best players are always drafted out of HS, I think the most signable are.
And an important point from TPM too.
While infielddad's post was very good, Fungo added the finishing touches when he commented on depth.
I do not agree that all minorleague players are prospects, however.
I do not agree that all minorleague players are prospects, however.
quote:I do not agree that all minorleague players are prospects, however.
Chill, you are absolutely correct!. The fact that MLB is talking about reducing the draft to 30 rounds and dissolving the GCL,AZL and even compacting players into the Appalachian league suggests, amongst other things, that there are way more "players" than "prospects."
From what I have been able to learn, it appears players drafted in the first 10 rounds, and a few others drafted later, begin their pro career as a "prospect." If they struggle, they are given a longer look to see if they can maintain/increase their status.
Drafted after the 10th round, you have to prove/earn prospect status by performing well whenever you get a chance. Even then, you probably won't fully know when or if you have transitioned from one to the other. Words from your manager to the effect that "you have put yourself on the radar and you have earned your position" sure have a nice "ring" to them though!
Additionally, organizations are very different in their approach and how long they will give "non prospects" a chance to prove themselves.
Just a quick story. Was at a "Roast" Saturday night for Dusty Rhodes-UNF head coach-it was also a fundraiser(raised $100,000). Former player came to the microphone and gave Rhodes all the credit for being in the Major League today.
Mike Wood-KC Royals said he was given an opportunity to play DII ball(now DI) and
he was 6'1", 155#-an infielder that barely could hit 80mph. He told Dusty if it weren't for him he would not have made it to the bigs.
Point being, it's tough to know what the future will hold for a young guy with little talent. But if the desire is there and a coach can see "past" the obvious
shortcomings and develop the strengths miracles can happen. Scouting, imo, is more
of an art than a science and the "good" scouts will trust their instincts more than their radar gun or their stopwatch.
Mike Wood-KC Royals said he was given an opportunity to play DII ball(now DI) and
he was 6'1", 155#-an infielder that barely could hit 80mph. He told Dusty if it weren't for him he would not have made it to the bigs.
Point being, it's tough to know what the future will hold for a young guy with little talent. But if the desire is there and a coach can see "past" the obvious
shortcomings and develop the strengths miracles can happen. Scouting, imo, is more
of an art than a science and the "good" scouts will trust their instincts more than their radar gun or their stopwatch.
if I'm missing something I'm sure someone will set me straight
anway a teams 1-10 round choices will be spread among 3 or 4 teams, last yrs top guys moved up a level, but some guys repeating are developing well - others are filler type players
so explain again why a good Tennessee, Texas, or Tulane team could not match up with "rookie" team in a best of 5 series
by bbscout:"The cream of the crop high school players never see college, as they recieve large bonus' to sign"
the numbers don't bear this out.
18 of 30 in 1rst round of the '05 draft were college guys.
those guys would be the 50% of a former hs "cream of the crop class" who didn't take the bonus and thought the college route would be good for them and were right.
there seems to be room for a good debate here
.
anway a teams 1-10 round choices will be spread among 3 or 4 teams, last yrs top guys moved up a level, but some guys repeating are developing well - others are filler type players
so explain again why a good Tennessee, Texas, or Tulane team could not match up with "rookie" team in a best of 5 series
by bbscout:"The cream of the crop high school players never see college, as they recieve large bonus' to sign"
the numbers don't bear this out.
18 of 30 in 1rst round of the '05 draft were college guys.
those guys would be the 50% of a former hs "cream of the crop class" who didn't take the bonus and thought the college route would be good for them and were right.
there seems to be room for a good debate here
.
Bee, some things that might be overlooked about Rookie league rosters:
They are filled with Latin players, some of whom have signed for very significant bonuses. They are hungry and can play. Might be raw but they can play.
Rosters also contain a fair number of JC players who were signed as draft and follows the prior year or who have just signed instead of transferring to a DI program.
Fillers: can play...a lot and some become prospects. Players who are "fillers" often were stars on their college teams.
If you were to compare the #6-9 hitters and the 5th-12th pitcher on a staff in rookie ball with those at a top DI, you will likely find the #6-9 and the pitchers were stars at the collegiate level, JC level or just signed a huge bonus out of a Latin country. Even at the schools you have listed, the #6-9 players/5th-12th pitchers are very good college players, but may not even be "fillers."
Professional baseball is taking the very best from a pool that is scouted nationally and beyond. By and large, even the top DI's are limited in recruiting by budget and 11.7 so they look regionally for the most part.
They are filled with Latin players, some of whom have signed for very significant bonuses. They are hungry and can play. Might be raw but they can play.
Rosters also contain a fair number of JC players who were signed as draft and follows the prior year or who have just signed instead of transferring to a DI program.
Fillers: can play...a lot and some become prospects. Players who are "fillers" often were stars on their college teams.
If you were to compare the #6-9 hitters and the 5th-12th pitcher on a staff in rookie ball with those at a top DI, you will likely find the #6-9 and the pitchers were stars at the collegiate level, JC level or just signed a huge bonus out of a Latin country. Even at the schools you have listed, the #6-9 players/5th-12th pitchers are very good college players, but may not even be "fillers."
Professional baseball is taking the very best from a pool that is scouted nationally and beyond. By and large, even the top DI's are limited in recruiting by budget and 11.7 so they look regionally for the most part.
The cream of the crop of HS players does sign. When the draft is held and as you said there was 12 HS guys taken in the first round, they won't be available for the draft 3 years from now. Add on about 10-15 more HS kids that teams backed off on because of signability and drafted later on in the draft and then signed them, and the cream is about 25-30 high school players that don't head off to college, and won't be in the draft pool 3 years from now.
Also, a teams top 10 picks are usually spread over two teams, not 3-4.In fact a teams top 20 picks are usually spread over two teams.
As far as kids going to College and improving and turning into high picks......of course they do, but the topic was about D1 teams competing against minor league teams of all levels. D1 ball is not even Rookie ball. It is not even close to "A" ball and the guys that think it is "AA" caliber have no clue at all.
Also, a teams top 10 picks are usually spread over two teams, not 3-4.In fact a teams top 20 picks are usually spread over two teams.
As far as kids going to College and improving and turning into high picks......of course they do, but the topic was about D1 teams competing against minor league teams of all levels. D1 ball is not even Rookie ball. It is not even close to "A" ball and the guys that think it is "AA" caliber have no clue at all.
I forgot about the international signs
OK so my match-up team combo will be Tulanasee,
pitching rotation
Hochevar
Bogesevich
Adkins
Owings
.
OK so my match-up team combo will be Tulanasee,
pitching rotation
Hochevar
Bogesevich
Adkins
Owings
.
Are those fellas still in college? 
Bee
As long as your closer is Neighborgall.
As long as your closer is Neighborgall.
oops b'scout, would ya believe I wrote that earlier??
AND we'll play it "with/on" EAsports Baseball
NCAA Baseball - it beats the he-ll out of a moose (or is that mouse) rolling dice
someone will have to enter the latin player's stats (in english please)
d04, yea but - I never comment on Neighborgall stuff - great kid wishing him the best
too bad about Bonifay??
bee
.
AND we'll play it "with/on" EAsports Baseball
NCAA Baseball - it beats the he-ll out of a moose (or is that mouse) rolling dice
someone will have to enter the latin player's stats (in english please)
d04, yea but - I never comment on Neighborgall stuff - great kid wishing him the best
too bad about Bonifay??
bee
.
It takes some of those "cream of the crop" kids signed out of HS a few years to catch up. In the meanwhile they are being kept on teams and being given playing time due to their potential more than their current ability to compete. In many cases they aren't as good of players at the moment as college players who will never be drafted.
I think you can look at how pitchers coming out of D1 fare in short season ball and A ball and get a pretty good idea how the minors match up with D1. D1 pitchers usually do pretty well in short season A. Full season A ball is another story and a fair jump upwards. I think a top D1 (let's say top 50) is as good as an average short season team but would get trounced day in and day out by a full season A team, although obviously a good college pitcher having a good day will be able to keep their team in a game. The short season team is still weeding out players and has a mixed talent base while the full season A team has done some of the weeding and is going to be too deep for a college team.
I got into a long "discussion" on this subject once before so this will be my only post on this one.
I think you can look at how pitchers coming out of D1 fare in short season ball and A ball and get a pretty good idea how the minors match up with D1. D1 pitchers usually do pretty well in short season A. Full season A ball is another story and a fair jump upwards. I think a top D1 (let's say top 50) is as good as an average short season team but would get trounced day in and day out by a full season A team, although obviously a good college pitcher having a good day will be able to keep their team in a game. The short season team is still weeding out players and has a mixed talent base while the full season A team has done some of the weeding and is going to be too deep for a college team.
I got into a long "discussion" on this subject once before so this will be my only post on this one.
Very good post CaDad. I think you hit the nail on the head with that one.
Caldad, I have to disagree very much with most of your post. Saying it takes the cream a few years to catch up is wrong unless you mean catching up to Clemens or Manny. Compared to the college guys who were Juniors this year, the cream from 2002 who would have been Juniors this year are "way" ahead of their classmates. Upton, Greinke, Fielder, Hermida, Kazmir, Francoeur and Cain are all first rounders out of HS in 2002 who have reached the Big Leagues. Santos in "AAA", Loney, Span and Hamels in "AA" will be there next year. Everts (TJ surgery) and Gruler (2 shoulder operations) are behind.They were the cream from 2002. 7 out of 13 have made the big leagues and 4 more will be there next year.
If they are good enough to play in the big leagues, don't you think they would have made a dent this year in college. By the way, one HS 1st rounder from 2002 did not sign. John Mayberry signed this year and hit .250 in short season ball.
Yourreasoning of how D1 pitchers fare in Short season ball is like saying all the high school pitchers will fare well in college. Some do and some don't.
Saying that a top 50 D1 team is as good as a short season team is nonsense.Only the best 3-4 players on the D1 team get to play short season ball. If you rounded up the 4 best players from each team in the Pac 10, don't you think they would beat up on a single Pac 10 team? That is what you are dealing with.
To make a good comparison, a fellow should go see about 20 D1 games and then watch about 20 short season games. I just finished my pro reports for the year. I reported on 317 minor league players after seeing all the major college teams on the west coast this spring.
I am now waiting for someone to say that the top 30 high school teams in the nation can beat up on D1 college teams.
If they are good enough to play in the big leagues, don't you think they would have made a dent this year in college. By the way, one HS 1st rounder from 2002 did not sign. John Mayberry signed this year and hit .250 in short season ball.
Yourreasoning of how D1 pitchers fare in Short season ball is like saying all the high school pitchers will fare well in college. Some do and some don't.
Saying that a top 50 D1 team is as good as a short season team is nonsense.Only the best 3-4 players on the D1 team get to play short season ball. If you rounded up the 4 best players from each team in the Pac 10, don't you think they would beat up on a single Pac 10 team? That is what you are dealing with.
To make a good comparison, a fellow should go see about 20 D1 games and then watch about 20 short season games. I just finished my pro reports for the year. I reported on 317 minor league players after seeing all the major college teams on the west coast this spring.
I am now waiting for someone to say that the top 30 high school teams in the nation can beat up on D1 college teams.
bbscout
Trust me--someone will !!!
Too many people have opinions on things they have no knowledge about and all too many people take what they read on a website as "gospel"
Trust me--someone will !!!
Too many people have opinions on things they have no knowledge about and all too many people take what they read on a website as "gospel"
One other factor that I would like to mention regarding short season A ball and full season (low) A ball ... quite a few players on each team are NOT first year players. Short season teams often have several returning players who were in extended spring training ... for several reasons including (but not limited to) rehabs and even position conversions. Likewise, full season (low) A can have quite a few "repeat performers" who are actually in their 3rd year (2nd full season). (Our son had several of each on both his short season and his low A teams the past 2 years.) With returning players like this at the lower levels, it puts an added twist on the level of play at these levels ... which I believe is quite a bit different than even the best D-1 college programs.
I will admit that I was a believer in the "a good D-1 team is comparable to short season / low A / high A / AA ... pick one" but I have definitely changed my opinion since watching 3 pro levels over the past 2 summers ... there is definitely a difference ... IMHO.
I will admit that I was a believer in the "a good D-1 team is comparable to short season / low A / high A / AA ... pick one" but I have definitely changed my opinion since watching 3 pro levels over the past 2 summers ... there is definitely a difference ... IMHO.
many of the latin players have 2 yrs pro experience by the time they turn 18.
quote:I never comment on Neighborgall stuff - great kid wishing him the best
too bad about Bonifay??
I wish him well too. He's perservered when many would not.
The DRays have mostly drafted very well but plugged in shabby vets on the cheap. They should have brought up Delmon Young and they need pitchers besides Danny Baez and Kazmir. Brazleton is a bust.
FBM
Although you have seen it with your own eyes I bet you have enough faith in bbscout to understand his opinion is from years of experience....and we should value the opinion of those who do it for a living.
There are many, many examples of top players at one level, who cannot succeed at the next level because they are simply not good enough. It is not a dig at the player but simply a fact. The level of play is completely different.
Although you have seen it with your own eyes
I bet you have enough faith in bbscout to understand his opinion is from years of experience....and we should value the opinion of those who do it for a living.There are many, many examples of top players at one level, who cannot succeed at the next level because they are simply not good enough. It is not a dig at the player but simply a fact. The level of play is completely different.
Chill, I actually agree with FBM's post 100%.
I know, I know, I said I wouldn't post again, but here's a couple drafted out of HS players, Matt Bush and Trevor Plouffe. Their results would have had non-"cream of the crop" players released already. There are many more examples where those came from. They may have the talent to go on to the big leagues but there's also no guarantee they'd have been anything special on a good D1 team their first year out of HS and especially not immediately after HS graduation. Understandably, we're seeing a lot of parochialism in this. BTW, It is amazing how cream of the crop goes from anyone who was drafted in the first 30 rounds to 1st round picks when one is trying to win an argument.
BBscout,
I haven't checked but maybe you can tell me how many of the players you listed as players who have advanced so far in 3 years played short season A ball in their first year and how many played short season A ball in their second year. Remember the D1 players are mostly 2nd through 4th year players and the ones who couldn't cut it have been weeded out while it probably takes most of a short season to weed uninjured players out of short season A.
FBM,
I believe AJ went to a short season A team immediately after his junior season at UCR. How did he do there? Did he struggle against those teams more than he did against the better college teams?
As far as the older players being down there I played on a team with players just out of AA and players currently in A ball against teams with players just out of AA and players in A ball. We were no better than the local JC teams.
Just remember that if there was a Zito and a Prior and even a Jered Weaver in the College ranks before there's similar players there now and they are generally playing for those top 50 D1s.
BBscout,
I haven't checked but maybe you can tell me how many of the players you listed as players who have advanced so far in 3 years played short season A ball in their first year and how many played short season A ball in their second year. Remember the D1 players are mostly 2nd through 4th year players and the ones who couldn't cut it have been weeded out while it probably takes most of a short season to weed uninjured players out of short season A.
FBM,
I believe AJ went to a short season A team immediately after his junior season at UCR. How did he do there? Did he struggle against those teams more than he did against the better college teams?
As far as the older players being down there I played on a team with players just out of AA and players currently in A ball against teams with players just out of AA and players in A ball. We were no better than the local JC teams.
Just remember that if there was a Zito and a Prior and even a Jered Weaver in the College ranks before there's similar players there now and they are generally playing for those top 50 D1s.
bbscout
So do I!
So do I!
Cadad, The same year Plouffe and Bush were drafted, 2004 which would have made the players Frosh this past year, the following guys were taken too....Walker, Butler, Elbert, Golson, Hughes, Waldrop, DeWitt, and Hurley. They all did well at advanced levels. As 19 year olds, Plouffe and Bush were in the Midwest League which is way past any level of D1 ball. In 2003 the class that would have been Sophs this past year included Young, Lubanski. Harvey, Danks, Stewart, Milledge, Moses, Wood, Barton and Billingsley. The only one who had a tough time from the 03 group was Allison, who had off field problems.
I would like to ask you this question....have you seen a short season team play? The nearest one to you is in Eugene, Oregon.
I would like to ask you this question....have you seen a short season team play? The nearest one to you is in Eugene, Oregon.
bbscout,
No I haven't. How many games have you seen between top 50 D1 teams and short season A teams?
How many of the players you listed played short season A? If they all did then you've got a good point. If many of them didn't then obviously they aren't the players we need to be comparing D1 players to. Remember, one of the things I stipulated in my original post was that low A was better than D1.
It isn't their year that is equivalent to their frosh year that counts in this discussion, it is their post HS season when they'd most likely be playing short season ball, barring the exceptions correctly noted by FBM.
Here's another point - 14 players from CSF were drafted last year. I've got to believe that some of the sophmores will also be drafted next year and would have been drafted this year if eligible. They could virtually field their own short season A team. Now typically a good D1 has about 6 to 7 players drafted each year and probably has another 6 to 7 who would be drafted if eligible. Add to that the players who are very good but not projectable and I find it very hard to believe they aren't as good as an average short season A team.
No I haven't. How many games have you seen between top 50 D1 teams and short season A teams?
How many of the players you listed played short season A? If they all did then you've got a good point. If many of them didn't then obviously they aren't the players we need to be comparing D1 players to. Remember, one of the things I stipulated in my original post was that low A was better than D1.
It isn't their year that is equivalent to their frosh year that counts in this discussion, it is their post HS season when they'd most likely be playing short season ball, barring the exceptions correctly noted by FBM.
Here's another point - 14 players from CSF were drafted last year. I've got to believe that some of the sophmores will also be drafted next year and would have been drafted this year if eligible. They could virtually field their own short season A team. Now typically a good D1 has about 6 to 7 players drafted each year and probably has another 6 to 7 who would be drafted if eligible. Add to that the players who are very good but not projectable and I find it very hard to believe they aren't as good as an average short season A team.
Cadad, Every one of the players played in the short season right after they signed. The following year, they advanced to "A" and in some cases "AA" and "AAA".As you well know, D1 teams don't play pro teams, but on the average, I see about 50 D1 games every year and about 70 minor league games every year ranging from short season and Instructional League up through "AAA". What that does is allow me to compare.
If you have never seen a short season game, why would you try to compare it to D1 baseball.
If you have never seen a short season game, why would you try to compare it to D1 baseball.
bbscout,
If they haven't played each other you can't really compare them. It is merely conjecture just like we're doing, although as usual I'll admit you are far more qualified to make that comparison and I wouldn't bet anything I couldn't afford to lose against you. It is still fun to discuss it.
I went through several players on the Yakima Bears roster for this past season as they were a team I knew to be a short season A team. Generally speaking there were no players straight out of HS so my argument on that doesn't apply at all. My bad.
I also noted that the majority of the players who I looked at on that team were drafted in the 20th or 30th round or even later. The older players on the team looked to be players who had not done that well and were trying to come back from an injury with limited success. To be honest on paper the talent level wasn't as good as what you'd expect from a good D1 team and if the other teams in the league are equivalent then it is no surprise that a good pitcher from a good D1 such as AJ came directly from school and dominated that league when he went through there.
If they haven't played each other you can't really compare them. It is merely conjecture just like we're doing, although as usual I'll admit you are far more qualified to make that comparison and I wouldn't bet anything I couldn't afford to lose against you. It is still fun to discuss it.
I went through several players on the Yakima Bears roster for this past season as they were a team I knew to be a short season A team. Generally speaking there were no players straight out of HS so my argument on that doesn't apply at all. My bad.
I also noted that the majority of the players who I looked at on that team were drafted in the 20th or 30th round or even later. The older players on the team looked to be players who had not done that well and were trying to come back from an injury with limited success. To be honest on paper the talent level wasn't as good as what you'd expect from a good D1 team and if the other teams in the league are equivalent then it is no surprise that a good pitcher from a good D1 such as AJ came directly from school and dominated that league when he went through there.
When AJ went to the NWL, he was no longer a D1 player, he was a pro. Bring on the UC Riverside pitcher and team who would now try to beat AJ when he now has a pro catcher, 1B, 2B, SS, 3B, Cf, Lf, Rf,DH, along with a pro bullpen etc.
As far as your statement about conjecture, my words are based on about 40 years of playing and scouting and probably seeing about 3000 games from the dugout and the stands, not trying to check out a NWL website to argue something that I have never seen.
As far as your statement about conjecture, my words are based on about 40 years of playing and scouting and probably seeing about 3000 games from the dugout and the stands, not trying to check out a NWL website to argue something that I have never seen.
The D Backs top ten picks that signed were spaced this way....4 at Yakima and 6 at Missoula, which is a lower short season team than Yakima.
Upton has not signed and Owings went to the Cal League.
So, 10 out of their first 11 picks that signed went to short season ball.
Upton has not signed and Owings went to the Cal League.
So, 10 out of their first 11 picks that signed went to short season ball.
....and so a new chapter for the book, "The Gospel According TO BBSCOUT".
With only a reverent intent and gratitude for your taking the time to post.....................
With only a reverent intent and gratitude for your taking the time to post.....................
FO, The reason that I have been so persistant posting on this thread is this.....we have many people on this site who just read and listen to advice and if incorrect advice is given, they can make decisions based on the advice. My thoughts on College are this.....if you are good enough to play pro ball out of high school and pro ball is your #1 priority, then you should sign. If you are good enough to play pro ball out of high school and education is your #1 priority, then you should go to college.
College baseball is not pro ball, nor should it be thought of that way. It is college ball....period. There is no comparison as pro ball is a higher level.
College baseball is not pro ball, nor should it be thought of that way. It is college ball....period. There is no comparison as pro ball is a higher level.
interesting points on both sides
the catch22 seems to be that the best DI examples were draft eligible and went pro so now they can't be used in a DI/Rookie Pro comparison playing againt themselves
point taken, and I do enjoy the wisdom of experience, but would you prefer a bbscout post just be followed by 25 posts with clapping hands??
baseball is a game where opinionated fans live to debate, sometimes viewpoints are changed, sometimes not
a bit off topic, but I gotta admire (not love) 43 yr old Clemens DH bunt - wondering, will A Boone be able to do that someday
.
the catch22 seems to be that the best DI examples were draft eligible and went pro so now they can't be used in a DI/Rookie Pro comparison playing againt themselves
quote:by chill: faith in bbscout to understand his opinion is from years of experience....and we should value the opinion of those who do it for a living.
point taken, and I do enjoy the wisdom of experience, but would you prefer a bbscout post just be followed by 25 posts with clapping hands??
baseball is a game where opinionated fans live to debate, sometimes viewpoints are changed, sometimes not
a bit off topic, but I gotta admire (not love) 43 yr old Clemens DH bunt - wondering, will A Boone be able to do that someday
.
bbscout,
No matter how much experience you have it is still conjecture. As the saying goes "That's why they play the game." Why are you so upset about a discussion on a website? I'm just putting out an argument that I believe in and you are putting out an opposing argument from a more authoritative position. The people who bother to read these know that you have far more experience in this than I do and will take it into account. The reality is that I have a better feel for how good the pro players are than I do for how good the college players are. In my limited playing experience I played against pros more often than I played against college players.
AJ was playing in the pros only a few weeks after playing in college, so I doubt there was a quantum leap in ability. I'd have been happy to see the UCR team play the Yakima Bears in a series right after that college season ended. Would have been quite interesting although it would have been hard for AJ to pitch against himself. My guess is that the majority of the starting lineup for Riverside that season is now playing or did play pro ball so I think it would have been a pretty good matchup with Riverside possibly have better pitching at the top.
No matter how much experience you have it is still conjecture. As the saying goes "That's why they play the game." Why are you so upset about a discussion on a website? I'm just putting out an argument that I believe in and you are putting out an opposing argument from a more authoritative position. The people who bother to read these know that you have far more experience in this than I do and will take it into account. The reality is that I have a better feel for how good the pro players are than I do for how good the college players are. In my limited playing experience I played against pros more often than I played against college players.
AJ was playing in the pros only a few weeks after playing in college, so I doubt there was a quantum leap in ability. I'd have been happy to see the UCR team play the Yakima Bears in a series right after that college season ended. Would have been quite interesting although it would have been hard for AJ to pitch against himself.
My guess is that the majority of the starting lineup for Riverside that season is now playing or did play pro ball so I think it would have been a pretty good matchup with Riverside possibly have better pitching at the top.quote:My thoughts on College are this.....if you are good enough to play pro ball out of high school and pro ball is your #1 priority, then you should sign. If you are good enough to play pro ball out of high school and education is your #1 priority, then you should go to college.
That statement I'll agree with 99%. I do believe that a player who is good enough to get drafted in the 1st or 2nd round and gets round money should go pro and put money aside for college unless they have no desire to ever play professional baseball. You can get a college degree after taking a few years off although doing so does reduce the probability of finishing the degree.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
bbscout,
No matter how much experience you have it is still conjecture. As the saying goes "That's why they play the game." Why are you so upset about a discussion on a website? I'm just putting out an argument that I believe in and you are putting out an opposing argument from a more authoritative position. The people who bother to read these know that you have far more experience in this than I do and will take it into account. The reality is that I have a better feel for how good the pro players are than I do for how good the college players are. In my limited playing experience I played against pros more often than I played against college players.
AJ was playing in the pros only a few weeks after playing in college, so I doubt there was a quantum leap in ability. I'd have been happy to see the UCR team play the Yakima Bears in a series right after that college season ended. Would have been quite interesting although it would have been hard for AJ to pitch against himself.
AJ and two others (Festa and Hoff) were drafted and signed. One other player(Torres) signed as a free agent in 2004.
I find this thread very interesting. Ive been to minor league games, but not any div I. games. The University of Delaware use to play the Wilmington Blue rocks (high A)once a year. But I couldnt tell you who won
...been to a spring's worth of D1 games seeing my son play sometimes and getting to know the strengths of the players.
Hard to imagine looking around at the end of the season and think, "This is JUST D1 ball......"
And I looked up and around the conference and a rare few out of the 350-400 players were drafted.
Some were talented athletes good enough to play, but maybe not good enough in the eyes of scouts to become MLB ball players. I don't know.
They were there, still wanted to try to play and signed as free agents as the MLB boys knew they would for just a monthly salary.
And even at this level we look for generalizations of methods to "make it".
Now, it's talent, hard work, a lot of luck, and you get a shot, no guaranteed roster spots, like travel, high school, and maybe some colleges, too.
It's not about turns anymore.
It's about the best.................
Only about 750 at a time.................
Go for it.
Hard to imagine looking around at the end of the season and think, "This is JUST D1 ball......"
And I looked up and around the conference and a rare few out of the 350-400 players were drafted.
Some were talented athletes good enough to play, but maybe not good enough in the eyes of scouts to become MLB ball players. I don't know.
They were there, still wanted to try to play and signed as free agents as the MLB boys knew they would for just a monthly salary.
And even at this level we look for generalizations of methods to "make it".
Now, it's talent, hard work, a lot of luck, and you get a shot, no guaranteed roster spots, like travel, high school, and maybe some colleges, too.
It's not about turns anymore.
It's about the best.................
Only about 750 at a time.................
Go for it.
Just read through this thread - and I still cant believe that anyone would think that a D1 - aluminum bat swinging Top 20 team could compete effectively with any level of pro ball - Including short season A.
I have certainly seen my share of both - and unless I was going to all the wrong games - there is no comparison IMO.
You could argue all day about top kids that signed after junior year - that would have remained on the team and therefore would have provided more competition to pro ball Low A teams. But that is exactly the point IMO. The cream of the crop - out of high school - and after eligilibity in college - go to the pro level.
For goodness sake - you got many college "stars" that go to the wood bat leagues in the summer - and flat out stink.
I do not understand the comparison - or the basis for the comparison.
After this post - I will just continue to read and scratch my head.
The whole debate makes little sense to me.
I have certainly seen my share of both - and unless I was going to all the wrong games - there is no comparison IMO.
You could argue all day about top kids that signed after junior year - that would have remained on the team and therefore would have provided more competition to pro ball Low A teams. But that is exactly the point IMO. The cream of the crop - out of high school - and after eligilibity in college - go to the pro level.
For goodness sake - you got many college "stars" that go to the wood bat leagues in the summer - and flat out stink.
I do not understand the comparison - or the basis for the comparison.
After this post - I will just continue to read and scratch my head.
The whole debate makes little sense to me.
Have been to about 25 games in short season A and a few more than that in low A, plus a week watching Spring training and Spring training games for about 7-8 hours per day. Also have been a season ticket holder at Sunken Diamond at Stanford and have seen 100's of games involving some of the top DI programs/players in the nation.
IMO, it is very important to recognize that players have to improve every time they move to the next level. To imagine a DI program limited to 11.7 scholarships and a recruiting budget can compete with a professional team signing the best players from the US, Latin America, Asia,etc is not realistic. CaDad, one of the most enlightening experiences is Spring training in mid March. You will see 180-200 players competing for 100 spots on rosters that begin April 7. Intensity, effort, and skills are amazing, especially when you realize that player 200 was an All American/best player/all conference/MVP.
These are players who see a teammate end his career regularly, when they are cut. They do not want that to be them...and they play like it.
IMO, it is very important to recognize that players have to improve every time they move to the next level. To imagine a DI program limited to 11.7 scholarships and a recruiting budget can compete with a professional team signing the best players from the US, Latin America, Asia,etc is not realistic. CaDad, one of the most enlightening experiences is Spring training in mid March. You will see 180-200 players competing for 100 spots on rosters that begin April 7. Intensity, effort, and skills are amazing, especially when you realize that player 200 was an All American/best player/all conference/MVP.
These are players who see a teammate end his career regularly, when they are cut. They do not want that to be them...and they play like it.
quote:Have been to about 25 games in short season A and a few more than that in low A, plus a week watching Spring training and Spring training games for about 7-8 hours per day.
quote:one of the most enlightening experiences is Spring training in mid March. You will see 180-200 players competing for 100 spots on rosters that begin April 7. Intensity, effort, and skills are amazing, especially when you realize that player 200 was an All American/best player/all conference/MVP.
Was fortunate to make Spring training with my boys when they were young....
Wondered then what it would be like to have a son out there.......
But, no way to appreciate the talent and effort at that time.........
Thanks for posting that perspective, infielddad
I can feel that spring sun and breeze and smell the fresh cut grass right now.
good discussion, I appreciate the dialog
I'm always willing to listen and learn
ex: I had always thought that so-called "filler players" were spread thru-out the system as needed - but have come to learn from IFdad that ALL are legit prospects, and some "fillers" are former all-american/all-conference mvp's - also that after the "cream of the crop" there's really not a whole lot of difference between a 10th round guy, 30th round guy or a free agent signee
and then - "bbscout" reasonably believes about 600 ABs with wood will start to project future ability, while "itsinthegame" can read it in about a month
sometimes the more I learn the "confused-er" I get
but anyway - maybe some will input on the "less contoversial"
part deux of the ORIGINAL Question
I only have a feel for college conditioning/training
lifting/condtioning offseason under the supervision of a strength coach 6 days a week - (a modified schedule inseason)
offseason daily individual skills sessions (4 on 1)
30 days offseason "team" practice, skills, intersquads, etc
summer wood bat league placement
athletic cafeteria training table diet w/ meat, fresh fruit, veggies, milk, cereal, yogurt, ice cream, juice, protien shakes, nutrient bars, etc
nutrition education, kinesiology lab, computer aided motion analysis lab, video overlay analysis, vision training, and team trainer(s) and medical staff
documentation reports of the player's strength/condtioning and progress with injuries/treament from the day he arrived on campus
my knowledge of the pro routine is nil, except noting they play 140 games a season, are mostly on their own, frequently on the road, and it's often implied that fast food is the staple
thanks in advance
.
I'm always willing to listen and learn
ex: I had always thought that so-called "filler players" were spread thru-out the system as needed - but have come to learn from IFdad that ALL are legit prospects, and some "fillers" are former all-american/all-conference mvp's - also that after the "cream of the crop" there's really not a whole lot of difference between a 10th round guy, 30th round guy or a free agent signee
and then - "bbscout" reasonably believes about 600 ABs with wood will start to project future ability, while "itsinthegame" can read it in about a month
sometimes the more I learn the "confused-er" I get
but anyway - maybe some will input on the "less contoversial"
part deux of the ORIGINAL Question
quote:"love to hear some opinions . . college vs pro conditioning"
I only have a feel for college conditioning/training
lifting/condtioning offseason under the supervision of a strength coach 6 days a week - (a modified schedule inseason)
offseason daily individual skills sessions (4 on 1)
30 days offseason "team" practice, skills, intersquads, etc
summer wood bat league placement
athletic cafeteria training table diet w/ meat, fresh fruit, veggies, milk, cereal, yogurt, ice cream, juice, protien shakes, nutrient bars, etc
nutrition education, kinesiology lab, computer aided motion analysis lab, video overlay analysis, vision training, and team trainer(s) and medical staff
documentation reports of the player's strength/condtioning and progress with injuries/treament from the day he arrived on campus
my knowledge of the pro routine is nil, except noting they play 140 games a season, are mostly on their own, frequently on the road, and it's often implied that fast food is the staple
thanks in advance
.
me too, Bee.
Cunningham, Deckert and Claggert were on that team and drafted in '05. Don't know if any others who were on that team signed as free agents in '05. Also don't know if any of them were JC transfers who didn't play during AJ's junior season. Most likely another player or 2 who was a freshman during AJ's junior season will be drafted and signed this year. I'm a bit surprised that more didn't get drafted but maybe it was AJ's sophmore season that UCR had their strong season.
Then again you can compare that with CSF who had 14 drafted last year. More typical is 6 or 7 each year for a strong D1 team meaning that of the players on a strong D1 team each year 15 to 20 of them will end up drafted or playing pro ball.
Then again you can compare that with CSF who had 14 drafted last year. More typical is 6 or 7 each year for a strong D1 team meaning that of the players on a strong D1 team each year 15 to 20 of them will end up drafted or playing pro ball.
If you take the drafted players from a D1 team and have them go out into pro ball and join forces with other drafted players, you now have a short season team. Do you think the kids (5-6) who are Freshmen and Sophs at one D1 college along with their teammates who will never be drafted can compete with the team of 30 drafted players who have already proved themselves in college and are now a team in pro ball?
One team is loaded up with 21-23 year old drafted college players, about 6-7 top Dominican players and 3-4 of the best high school prospects. The other team has about 5-6 guys who "might" get drafted along with 25 others who will not ever play pro ball.
One team is loaded up with 21-23 year old drafted college players, about 6-7 top Dominican players and 3-4 of the best high school prospects. The other team has about 5-6 guys who "might" get drafted along with 25 others who will not ever play pro ball.
Do I think that the top 15 to 20 players on a top D1 including those who don't have the tools to make the big leagues but may be better players for now are as good as the the top 15 to 20 players from a short season A team? Yes, especially the pitching where pitchers who are better pitchers now may not be drafted because they don't have enough of an upside.
Do I think there's more depth on the A team? Yes.
Do I think there is more talent on the A team which many people here have noted?
Yes, but talent alone doesn't get the job done. (I'd make a crack about the Yankees here but I really don't think they had the talent. Pitching is what wins playoffs almost every time.)
Do I think the college team will play as a team while the A team will play as a bunch of individuals?
Yes.
Where do you get 5 or 6 who might get drafted? The average each year for the top 25 D1 teams is over 6 players meaning that 15 to 20 will get drafted or signed at the end of their college careers including a select few who will skip short season A and go to A ball or even in extremely rare cases AA ball.
Do I think there's more depth on the A team? Yes.
Do I think there is more talent on the A team which many people here have noted?
Yes, but talent alone doesn't get the job done. (I'd make a crack about the Yankees here but I really don't think they had the talent. Pitching is what wins playoffs almost every time.)
Do I think the college team will play as a team while the A team will play as a bunch of individuals?
Yes.
Where do you get 5 or 6 who might get drafted? The average each year for the top 25 D1 teams is over 6 players meaning that 15 to 20 will get drafted or signed at the end of their college careers including a select few who will skip short season A and go to A ball or even in extremely rare cases AA ball.
quote:by bbscout: One team is loaded up with 21-23 year old drafted college players, about 6-7 top Dominican players and 3-4 of the best high school prospects.
scout, I DO see your point, however as CAdad has some non-pro prospects (by your description) in his line-up
quote:by Chill: I do not agree that all minor league players are prospects, however
taking Chill's baseball experience into account
when do the "pro fillers/non prospects" get into your line-up?
.
The other team has 15 to 20 players who will be drafted or signed on average. Most of them would be drafted or signed immediately if eligible.
I think we've beaten this to death and while my opinions haven't changed I think bbscout, and others have brought up some very good points.
Thanks for the discussion.
As soon as one of us wins the mega-lottery they'll have to buy a short season A team and find a way (almost as unlikely as winning the lottery) to have them play against some D1 teams.
Thanks for the discussion.
As soon as one of us wins the mega-lottery they'll have to buy a short season A team and find a way (almost as unlikely as winning the lottery) to have them play against some D1 teams.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
The other team has 15 to 20 players who will be drafted or signed on average. Most of them would be drafted or signed immediately if eligible.
In the past 10 years, UC Riverside, which has a real good program has had 21 players drafted....total. Saying that the other team has 15-20 players that will be drafted is a big stretch for most schools.
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:quote:by bbscout: One team is loaded up with 21-23 year old drafted college players, about 6-7 top Dominican players and 3-4 of the best high school prospects.
scout, I DO see your point, however as CAdad has some non-pro prospects (by your description) in his line-up
------------------------------------------------
Not my description, just facts.quote:by Chill: I do not agree that all minor league players are prospects, however
taking Chill's baseball experience into account
when do the "pro fillers/non prospects" get into your line-up?
------------------------------------------------
All players that never reach the big leagues are in reality, fillers. All players that get signed will be in the lineup at the Mgrs. discretion. As Chill mentioned, all players in pro ball are not MLB prospects. All players in college lineups are not good college players either.
.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Do I think that the top 15 to 20 players on a top D1 including those who don't have the tools to make the big leagues but may be better players for now are as good as the the top 15 to 20 players from a short season A team? Yes, especially the pitching where pitchers who are better pitchers now may not be drafted because they don't have enough of an upside.
Do I think there's more depth on the A team? Yes.
Do I think there is more talent on the A team which many people here have noted?
Yes, but talent alone doesn't get the job done. (I'd make a crack about the Yankees here but I really don't think they had the talent. Pitching is what wins playoffs almost every time.)
Do I think the college team will play as a team while the A team will play as a bunch of individuals?
Yes.
Where do you get 5 or 6 who might get drafted? The average each year for the top 25 D1 teams is over 6 players meaning that 15 to 20 will get drafted or signed at the end of their college careers including a select few who will skip short season A and go to A ball or even in extremely rare cases AA ball.
If you consider 3 a few, then you must think that out of the top 25 College teams that 75 players will go directly to full season "A" ball or higher when they are drafted. "NOT"
I played pro ball, and we played as a team every season. I think your statement about a college team playing more as a team than a pro team is based on inexperience on your part.
You are right about one thing, and that is that the pro team has more talent. The pro teams for the most part have better coaching too.
The top 25 in D1 last year had over 6 players drafted per team. Riverside is a good team but not a perennial top 50 team. One year I believe they were in or close to the top 25. Last year only two or three teams out of the top 25 had as few as 3 players drafted. On the other hand 1 team had 14 players drafted, 3 had 9 drafted and 2 had 8 drafted. That is what I was referring to when I said I was surprised that Riverside had that few drafted.
Please quit trying to put words in my keyboard. How can you interpret "a select few" as being almost half? A bit over 150 players were drafted from the top 25 D1 teams last year. I'd be surprised if even 10 of the 150+ drafted from the top 25 D1s went straight to full season A or higher.
How much turnover is there in the coaching in short season A ball? Where do they send the guys with playing experience but no coaching experience who may or may not be decent coaches? I'd agree that for the most part pro teams have better coaching than college teams but I wouldn't extend that to short season teams. We've had a lot of guys who have coached at various levels of pro ball around here and we've got a lot of college coaches around here and other than Scioscia and George Anderson none of the pro coaches stand out a whole lot.
Please quit trying to put words in my keyboard. How can you interpret "a select few" as being almost half? A bit over 150 players were drafted from the top 25 D1 teams last year. I'd be surprised if even 10 of the 150+ drafted from the top 25 D1s went straight to full season A or higher.
How much turnover is there in the coaching in short season A ball? Where do they send the guys with playing experience but no coaching experience who may or may not be decent coaches? I'd agree that for the most part pro teams have better coaching than college teams but I wouldn't extend that to short season teams. We've had a lot of guys who have coached at various levels of pro ball around here and we've got a lot of college coaches around here and other than Scioscia and George Anderson none of the pro coaches stand out a whole lot.
Since you have admitted that you have not seen Short Season ball, what is it that you know about the coaching at that level? Is it a guess? How many D1 games did you see last year? What are the strong points of the D1 coaches that you did see? In what ways are the players more team oriented in College as opposed to Pro ball? oops, you can't answer that because you never see the short season pro ball games.
Not hard to answer. Players who play for a college expect to stay there for a few years although it doesn't always happen that way. Players on a minor league team are doing everything they can to get off the team.
BTW, I notice you didn't answer any of my questions about the coaching?
I don't know the D1 coaches personally but I do know a pretty good D3 coach or two and I've seen at least one local HS coach in action that I'd take over most short season A coaches sight unseen. Heck, it isn't unusual for the pitching coaches in our HS league to have either pitched in the big leagues or to have been a pitching coach in the big leagues so I find it hard to believe the quality is much less at D1 schools and I don't know how the quality is going to be a whole lot better in short season A. Are most of the coaches in short season A better than Jerry W.?
It wouldn't surprise me if you stopped by to see a game or two considering some of the players we've got in the league and if so I'll just walk over from the freshman field and we can discuss this kind of thing in person where you can tell when someone is kidding and people don't get so worked up about opinions and I'll spend my time listening and learning instead of arguing.
In any case let's end this thread because we're just arguing now and trying to poke holes in each other's arguments rather than doing anything constructive.
BTW, I notice you didn't answer any of my questions about the coaching?
I don't know the D1 coaches personally but I do know a pretty good D3 coach or two and I've seen at least one local HS coach in action that I'd take over most short season A coaches sight unseen. Heck, it isn't unusual for the pitching coaches in our HS league to have either pitched in the big leagues or to have been a pitching coach in the big leagues so I find it hard to believe the quality is much less at D1 schools and I don't know how the quality is going to be a whole lot better in short season A. Are most of the coaches in short season A better than Jerry W.?
It wouldn't surprise me if you stopped by to see a game or two considering some of the players we've got in the league and if so I'll just walk over from the freshman field and we can discuss this kind of thing in person where you can tell when someone is kidding and people don't get so worked up about opinions and I'll spend my time listening and learning instead of arguing.
In any case let's end this thread because we're just arguing now and trying to poke holes in each other's arguments rather than doing anything constructive.
Sight unseen?? Did you pick out a hitting coach for your son sight unseen? Did you marry your wife sight unseen? I sure hope not.
I won't be scouting teams in your league, as they are not in my scouting area.
I won't be scouting teams in your league, as they are not in my scouting area.
CADad---
I have no vested interest in this thread -- just perusing the posts. May I suggest you put some duct tape over that foot in your mouth so that you can't dig yourself in deeper than you already have? Your "sight unseen" comments are long past ridiculous. Thanks for the chuckle, though!
I have no vested interest in this thread -- just perusing the posts. May I suggest you put some duct tape over that foot in your mouth so that you can't dig yourself in deeper than you already have? Your "sight unseen" comments are long past ridiculous. Thanks for the chuckle, though!
Git yur chair PantherDad.
I dont think you can compare managing a minor league team and managing a college team. A minor league team wants to win but its about development.
If a player is playing to the best of his ability, is he team oriented or playing as a individual ? How are they different?
njbb, That young man of yours is a team player who has talent, and he is also a fine individual.
Nice job of twisting my words again. I said I'd take a certain HS coach over other coaches sight unseen. I've seen the HS coach work with kids as we've played against his team multiple times and I've seen his results with his HS team which include back to back national championships. I really don't have to see anyone else to know that this is a very good coach. I've also seen how the coaches with extensive big league experience do when they come into our HS league and it isn't always a pretty sight so I'd rather leave some of those short season A coaches sight unseen. I don't have to go watch every short season A coach to know that some of them are going to be very good, some are going to stink and most are going to be somewhere in between.
And yes of course I selected a hitting and pitching instructor for my son who I had seen and whose qualifications I had checked over other coaches who I hadn't seen. That is what we all do. That is what I said not what you tried to twist my words to say. I think one of the other poster put it pretty well when he said that you seem to expect everybody to stop posting and applaud whenever you take the time to post something. I guess I shouldn't be surprised as it is obvious that certain posters are more than willing to throw in insults on your behalf without taking the time to understand what was written.
And yes of course I selected a hitting and pitching instructor for my son who I had seen and whose qualifications I had checked over other coaches who I hadn't seen. That is what we all do. That is what I said not what you tried to twist my words to say. I think one of the other poster put it pretty well when he said that you seem to expect everybody to stop posting and applaud whenever you take the time to post something. I guess I shouldn't be surprised as it is obvious that certain posters are more than willing to throw in insults on your behalf without taking the time to understand what was written.
njbb,
You know as well as I do that some players put their own statistics ahead of the success of the team. I happen to think that will be more prevalent in a situation where the team is only a temporary stopping place and where winning is secondary to development.
You know as well as I do that some players put their own statistics ahead of the success of the team. I happen to think that will be more prevalent in a situation where the team is only a temporary stopping place and where winning is secondary to development.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
njbb,
You know as well as I do that some players put their own statistics ahead of the success of the team. I happen to think that will be more prevalent in a situation where the team is only a temporary stopping place and where winning is secondary to development.
A temporary stopping place? Do you mean like High School, or College which are for a few years, or are you talking about the pro players that are working their way up the ladder together? I had some teammates for upwards of 6 years, and if I had been a better player, I would have had some of them for about 10-12 years.
Some players do put their stats as the #1 priority. Usually it is the parents doing it in Little League, Pony League, High School and College. In pro ball if you act up, you get hit in the wallet.
How many of the ones who got a chance to move up, asked to stay down with their team mates? Nobody pulls a Matt Leinart once they go professional. It doesn't happen too often in college baseball but there are players who will turn down good money and risk their dream of playing pro ball to stay with their team one more year.
Loyalty to the school is a big deal in college and it doesn't end. It isn't perfect and players do switch teams. In pro ball there should be loyalty to the team you are on but let's face it pro ball is a business for both the organization and the players and loyalty to the team is limited. There are players out there playing with the goal of getting a look from another organization because they know there's no room in front of them in their own organization.
Loyalty to the school is a big deal in college and it doesn't end. It isn't perfect and players do switch teams. In pro ball there should be loyalty to the team you are on but let's face it pro ball is a business for both the organization and the players and loyalty to the team is limited. There are players out there playing with the goal of getting a look from another organization because they know there's no room in front of them in their own organization.
The only college baseball players who turn down good money to go back to college are guys who want more money. It does not have anything to do with being a good teammate.
If a pro player gets promoted to the next level and then turns it down, they would not consider him a good teammate, but they might give him a test to see what he had been smoking.
If a pro player gets promoted to the next level and then turns it down, they would not consider him a good teammate, but they might give him a test to see what he had been smoking.
Personally I'd check to see what the ones who go back to school in lieu of big money are smoking. It isn't worth the risk. MLB should be the goal and really big money instead of big money should be a nice side benefit.
Despite our arguing here on the board I've been impressed at the path you and your son have taken, especially considering certain changes that have occurred. You've set a goal and gone after it and I've got to believe he'll end up with a degree and a pro career.
Despite our arguing here on the board I've been impressed at the path you and your son have taken, especially considering certain changes that have occurred. You've set a goal and gone after it and I've got to believe he'll end up with a degree and a pro career.
Of course stats are important to players but there are all types of stats. I think in pro baseball every thing is recorded, every home to first time, did you get a hit, how was it hit, did you move the runner, How you carry yourself, how you handle failure.
Everyone has a job to do and if you do your job and continue to improve you and the team will be successful.
Everyone has a job to do and if you do your job and continue to improve you and the team will be successful.
I nominate this thread for the golden threads board - if we are still gonna have one of those.
I printed it off and had my son read it. Very interesting perspectives about college.
I printed it off and had my son read it. Very interesting perspectives about college.
quote:It doesn't happen too often in college baseball but there are players who will turn down good money and risk their dream of playing pro ball to stay with their team one more year.
The Cajuns #1 pitcher came back for his Sr. year last year, turning down about $50,000 his Jr. year. He felt he owed the team that allowed him to walk on and become the #1. He had a tough last month of the season, probably worrying about the draft, but still got drafted in the 10th round.
quote:Some players do put their stats as the #1 priority. Usually it is the parents doing it in Little League, Pony League, High School and College.
A good reason to keep the book for your team.
I've stayed out of this one until now, because I think I can just about end it.
I watched and covered the New York-Penn League for more than 10 years. That said:
Take your basic .500 team in a top D-I league. You're going to play 30 games in 30 days against your basic .500 NY-P team. It would probably go like this:
Week 1 -- Your college ace would probably keep the NY-P team in check, and the top of your order (using wood) is making good contact, but not getting more than 4-5 singles a game. Your No. 3 starter pitched the game of his life and you beat the NY-P team 2-1, but that's the only win in seven games.
Week 2 -- The college ace had another strong outing, but gave up a couple of long balls because the NY-P guys know he won't come inside unless he's ahead on the count. A couple of the college hitters are zeroing in on fastballs, but aren't getting many to hit when the count is in their favor. Still, though, you squeezed out a win in a kind of a sloppy game, both teams making a lot of errors. But the NY-P guys are pounding everybody but your ace and that's the only win the college guys get.
Week 3 -- The NY-P guys have seen all the college arms, those arms are starting to tire, if only a little, and the results are starting to show. The ace keeps 'em under double digits, but he's the only one. The college guys can't get quality at-bats and are starting to guess on pitches because they're frustrated. None of the games are close.
Week 4 -- And you thought Week 3 was ugly. Sociology lecture, anyone?
College team's final record against NY-P: 2-28.
Team batting average: .085
Team ERA: 8.42
Only college kid to hit a home run: My son. The NY-P team's parent club offered him a contract the day the games ended.
Any questions?
I watched and covered the New York-Penn League for more than 10 years. That said:
Take your basic .500 team in a top D-I league. You're going to play 30 games in 30 days against your basic .500 NY-P team. It would probably go like this:
Week 1 -- Your college ace would probably keep the NY-P team in check, and the top of your order (using wood) is making good contact, but not getting more than 4-5 singles a game. Your No. 3 starter pitched the game of his life and you beat the NY-P team 2-1, but that's the only win in seven games.
Week 2 -- The college ace had another strong outing, but gave up a couple of long balls because the NY-P guys know he won't come inside unless he's ahead on the count. A couple of the college hitters are zeroing in on fastballs, but aren't getting many to hit when the count is in their favor. Still, though, you squeezed out a win in a kind of a sloppy game, both teams making a lot of errors. But the NY-P guys are pounding everybody but your ace and that's the only win the college guys get.
Week 3 -- The NY-P guys have seen all the college arms, those arms are starting to tire, if only a little, and the results are starting to show. The ace keeps 'em under double digits, but he's the only one. The college guys can't get quality at-bats and are starting to guess on pitches because they're frustrated. None of the games are close.
Week 4 -- And you thought Week 3 was ugly. Sociology lecture, anyone?
College team's final record against NY-P: 2-28.
Team batting average: .085
Team ERA: 8.42
Only college kid to hit a home run: My son. The NY-P team's parent club offered him a contract the day the games ended.
Any questions?
nice wrap job OVaman, but you may have posted on the wrong thread
you took it from U Texas matching up a couple games with a short A team -
to U Toledo playing 30 games in 30 days against the short A league
I'd be interested in your experience though on why that college pitcher who won't throw inside behind in the count in June, but when drafted, signs & reports to his team and in July suddenly he will go inside
btw congrats to your son
.
you took it from U Texas matching up a couple games with a short A team -
to U Toledo playing 30 games in 30 days against the short A league
I'd be interested in your experience though on why that college pitcher who won't throw inside behind in the count in June, but when drafted, signs & reports to his team and in July suddenly he will go inside
btw congrats to your son
.
Bee> ...
I suspect it is because the college coach is calling the game ... first hand experience watching own son. College coach didn't see many inside fastballs that he liked no matter what the count
quote:I'd be interested in your experience though on why that college pitcher who won't throw inside behind in the count in June, but when drafted, signs & reports to his team and in July suddenly he will go inside
I suspect it is because the college coach is calling the game ... first hand experience watching own son. College coach didn't see many inside fastballs that he liked no matter what the count
quote:I'd be interested in your experience though on why that college pitcher who won't throw inside behind in the count in June, but when drafted, signs & reports to his team and in July suddenly he will go inside
Why?
Aluminum.
quote:Why? . . . Aluminum.
huh?
as needed . . they throw inside FB in summer wood leagues as amatures, don't they?
the implication by OVaman was that a college pitcher would not have the smarts or skill to go there against wood -
I did't cover the NYPenn league for 10 yrs, but have seen a few hundred summer college wood games (including the Cape) and don't agree with that accessment
.
I think that the biggest reason for not pitching inside much in college is that in the majority of programs, the coach calls the game. In pro ball, the catcher and pitcher call the game and are encouraged by player development to pitch inside, and it starts happening the day you arrive.
Cape League pitchers throw a steady diet of inside fastballs...and love doing it.
Now I've gone and done it. I'm sorry, already yet.
College coaches call college games and they want pitchers to work away-away-away and come inside only to surprise them, because a mistake goes 400 feet with metal. Not many college pitchers will come inside behind on the count because the margin for error is so small.
In the NY-P, catchers learn to call ballgames and pitchers learn to work inside consistantly so they can get hitters out inside and outside. If they can't work inside consistantly, hitters can sit on pitches out over the plate and hit them hard and/or a long way. Hitters can't do that if they're conscious of getting sawed off.
Another way to look at it: College coaches know they can get a decent number of hitters out of pitches out of the strike zone. Pros have to get hitters out on balls and strikes.
College coaches call college games and they want pitchers to work away-away-away and come inside only to surprise them, because a mistake goes 400 feet with metal. Not many college pitchers will come inside behind on the count because the margin for error is so small.
In the NY-P, catchers learn to call ballgames and pitchers learn to work inside consistantly so they can get hitters out inside and outside. If they can't work inside consistantly, hitters can sit on pitches out over the plate and hit them hard and/or a long way. Hitters can't do that if they're conscious of getting sawed off.
Another way to look at it: College coaches know they can get a decent number of hitters out of pitches out of the strike zone. Pros have to get hitters out on balls and strikes.
OldVaman:
As with most all generalizations,there's a lot of truth in yours...as well as some notable exceptions. The best college pitchers pitch inside with greater frequency than you're describing....and I think it's the best college pitchers that folks here are theorizing about.
As with most all generalizations,there's a lot of truth in yours...as well as some notable exceptions. The best college pitchers pitch inside with greater frequency than you're describing....and I think it's the best college pitchers that folks here are theorizing about.
quote:Now I've gone and done it
OVaman, and you thought you were putting this thread to sleep
agree, it gets a bit predictable, and scout's point about college coaches is well taken too.quote:work away-away-away and come inside only to surprise
Prepster, good to see you're alive & kickin'
.
quote:good to see you're alive & kickin'
You, too, Bee>!!!
I'm sure you're already arranging for us to use one of Georgia Tech's many, palatial, skyboxes when we come there next spring.
If you're coming up a little short on funds for that purpose, I'd suggest that you contact our mutual friend, TigerPawMom. Since Clemson's not having to host UNC this year, I'm sure she'll be eager to chip in and help out.
I have been to Tech, no skyboxes...are you trying to FOOL me? TPM smarter than that!
If I do come, I'll sit in the cheap free seats
If I do come, I'll sit in the cheap free seats
tpm,
our sky boxes are reached via a step ladder the frats leave at the rf wall, right behind the HR fence . . great view, but sitting on a wall can get old . . eh, those are also the free seats
if that's not your cup o tea, Tech reciprocates with ACC and most other opponents for the "player pass list"
Prep, I do see your need,
our fence down first base-line is only about thigh-high, and y'all who
"hang on the fence down the line" keep falling into the field of play
c'mon, blue has a game to do, he can't be continualy calling time to help you back over
.
our sky boxes are reached via a step ladder the frats leave at the rf wall, right behind the HR fence . . great view, but sitting on a wall can get old . . eh, those are also the free seats
if that's not your cup o tea, Tech reciprocates with ACC and most other opponents for the "player pass list"
Prep, I do see your need,
our fence down first base-line is only about thigh-high, and y'all who
"hang on the fence down the line" keep falling into the field of play
c'mon, blue has a game to do, he can't be continualy calling time to help you back over
.
The seats may be free but the parking tickets are not. Not much parking around the Tech ball park.
D04, with all the new construction street parking is a bit scarce, tho plenty of free space available in the lots & decks for game day parking
best is the lot overlooking CF with plenty of room to park/tailgate - and just beyond that is a HUGE lot where alot of RV's overnight
oh yea, thanks for the donation if you parked in restricted zones
.
best is the lot overlooking CF with plenty of room to park/tailgate - and just beyond that is a HUGE lot where alot of RV's overnight
oh yea, thanks for the donation if you parked in restricted zones
.
B
I was just there for the weekend and didn't know what I was doing. Situation normal. It's a beautiful ballpark though.
I was just there for the weekend and didn't know what I was doing. Situation normal. It's a beautiful ballpark though.
quote:Originally posted by Bee>:
tpm,
if that's not your cup o tea, Tech reciprocates with ACC and most other opponents for the "player pass list"
.
Yes I know as I said the cheap FREE seats. Just hope the parents seats are better than the ones given at FSU, you need binoculars. CU gives seats above the dugout to parents both visiting and home, nice jesture.
Have you ever been to CU games? Have you ever heard about teh Cheap seats, that bus parked behind CF? I understand that is the place to be come gameday. I also understand it is deadly for the visiting team.
That's why the all HATE to play at Clemson!
tpm, right behind your dugout, no binocs necessary
How would you compare the level of play between D1 school and summer league teams like the Cape Cod league?
When I asked my son how his summer team (Chatham A's, Cape Cod League) would fare if you "transplanted" it into his college conference (ACC), his immediate response: "The Cape League team would dominate EVERY ACC team." Having watched both leagues extensively, I'd concur.
Rather than compare rookie teams with D1 teams, What level of play would Cape Cod league match with? Short season,low A? Do these leagues give instruction or work on new skills?
After reading this thread, it sounds like it's quite convincing that the best D1 school's players would be fortunate to be able to carry the bat bags for even the short season rookies. That kind of surprises me since many of these players are 18 and 19 year old players just out of high school as well as quite a few light hitting, over-hyped latin players.
Do colleges still get to play exhibition games against the mlb squads during their spring training?
From my recollection, even against players much superior than short season rookie ball, the college teams acquitted themselves quite well.
Do colleges still get to play exhibition games against the mlb squads during their spring training?
From my recollection, even against players much superior than short season rookie ball, the college teams acquitted themselves quite well.
I think many of the best college pitchers would do just fine.
I also think the majority of the "big bangers" in college would hit a Mendoza-like .100 using wood.
Actually - you dont even have to watch a college team play against a pro-A ball team to watch this.
Just watch a decent collegiate summer league season.
Hitting with wood is a completely different animal - especially when you are facing top pitching at the collegiate or pro level IMO.
I also think the majority of the "big bangers" in college would hit a Mendoza-like .100 using wood.
Actually - you dont even have to watch a college team play against a pro-A ball team to watch this.
Just watch a decent collegiate summer league season.
Hitting with wood is a completely different animal - especially when you are facing top pitching at the collegiate or pro level IMO.
quote:Originally posted by SBK:
After reading this thread, it sounds like it's quite convincing that the best D1 school's players would be fortunate to be able to carry the bat bags for even the short season rookies. That kind of surprises me since many of these players are 18 and 19 year old players just out of high school as well as quite a few light hitting, over-hyped latin players.
Do colleges still get to play exhibition games against the mlb squads during their spring training?
From my recollection, even against players much superior than short season rookie ball, the college teams acquitted themselves quite well.
I can't recall a college team even getting more than a run off in a spring exhibition game. The pro players are usually the bench and minor leaguers in the exhibition games.
Most GA Tech/Braves BC/Red Sox games have been blow outs.
Go to a D1 game and a high A or AA game in the same week. The differences in nearly every aspect of the games are striking. Why would they even be close? The college kids are 18-20 year old part-time amateurs. The pro guys are 22-25 year old full-time professionals.
The pros are bigger, faster, throw farther, harder and hit the ball harder, with wood. It is like comparing, um, Big 10 Golf and the Nationwide Tour. It ain't even close.
SBK,
May I add - many of those "overhyped" Latin players you speak of grew up hitting a baseball with a 2x4.
Not a $350 metal rocket launcher - that can produce 360 foot screaming liners on a check swing. LOL
May I add - many of those "overhyped" Latin players you speak of grew up hitting a baseball with a 2x4.
Not a $350 metal rocket launcher - that can produce 360 foot screaming liners on a check swing. LOL
Its,
Tend to agree. You have to take the wood bats out of the equation for the D1 teams to be competitive with the short season A teams.
One of our local kids did quite well in D1 ball then hit about .125 in the Cape Cod League. Must have been lack of reps though because he was drafted after his senior season and hit .280 or .300ish in short season A, only a bit less than he hit in college with aluminum.
I've seen a fair amount of A games over the last couple years and while they're clearly better at that level than D1 teams there are enough kids out of HS still trying to catch up on the A teams that the D1s wouldn't be completely blown out if the wood bats were taken out of it.
They don't always play the players with the best stats in the minors. They often play a player with more talent who is struggling to learn because they feel that player has more long term potential.
Tend to agree. You have to take the wood bats out of the equation for the D1 teams to be competitive with the short season A teams.
One of our local kids did quite well in D1 ball then hit about .125 in the Cape Cod League. Must have been lack of reps though because he was drafted after his senior season and hit .280 or .300ish in short season A, only a bit less than he hit in college with aluminum.
I've seen a fair amount of A games over the last couple years and while they're clearly better at that level than D1 teams there are enough kids out of HS still trying to catch up on the A teams that the D1s wouldn't be completely blown out if the wood bats were taken out of it.
They don't always play the players with the best stats in the minors. They often play a player with more talent who is struggling to learn because they feel that player has more long term potential.
quote:The pros are bigger, faster, throw farther, harder and hit the ball harder, with wood.
Other than that, the games are pretty similar.
If you take the wood bats out of the equation, the kids out of high school would be hitting better also
Some o0f the Elite teams (HS Kids) from Ontario play the rookie class teams and beat them. They also have played D1 college/D1 JC and beat them as well.
Every spring several Elite teams square off against these teams in Florida.
Every spring several Elite teams square off against these teams in Florida.
Although this is college player they were not playing bench guys.
Senior Chris Emanuele at home plate after homering in the first inning of NU's exhibition game against the Boston Red Sox. Photo by Jim Pierce.
Senior Chris Emanuele started the Northeastern baseball team’s exhibition game against the Boston Red Sox with a blast, homering off of 2005 American League All-Star Matt Clement on the third pitch of the game, but the Huskies eventually fell to the Sox 9-2 Friday night at City of Palms Park in Fort Myers, Fla.
Senior Chris Emanuele at home plate after homering in the first inning of NU's exhibition game against the Boston Red Sox. Photo by Jim Pierce.
Senior Chris Emanuele started the Northeastern baseball team’s exhibition game against the Boston Red Sox with a blast, homering off of 2005 American League All-Star Matt Clement on the third pitch of the game, but the Huskies eventually fell to the Sox 9-2 Friday night at City of Palms Park in Fort Myers, Fla.
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Some o0f the Elite teams (HS Kids) from Ontario play the rookie class teams and beat them. They also have played D1 college/D1 JC and beat them as well.
Every spring several Elite teams square off against these teams in Florida.
BHD, not sure what you mean about the comment concerning "rookie class" teams? Are you talking about short season A, like the NY/PENN or teams in the Pioneer and Appalachian leagues. What are you referring to and when were these games played???
He could mean "complex" rookie league, where many hs players go after the draft.Also young latin players and rehab players play there
Every year some of the Elite teams like the Ontario Blue Jays play what were referred to as Rookie class teams. These were the players in A ball 1st year. These games I refered to were in 05 and that is when I stopped following it. OBJ played several minor league / college teams that year and did very well.
Their 05 shedule is still on their site.
Their 05 shedule is still on their site.
quote:He could mean "complex" rookie league, where many hs players go after the draft.Also young latin players and rehab players play there
That is what I was thinking also, until I reread the post and it said they play those games "every Spring."
From everything I have seen during Spring training, every player in a minor league organization is assigned to a team and they play every single afternoon following morning practice. It would not be possible for them to be playing extra games against a high school all star group.
BHD, why don't you give me a link to the schedule.
To my knowledge, there isn't a minor league classification of "rookie league" that is made up from guys who played "A" ball the prior year. In fact, Toronto has their minor league schedule for Spring Training posted and it is made up of AAA,AA,high A and low A and there are no players left after that. A team made up of "A" ball players would smoke a group of high school players, even an All Star group.
I think njbb is correct. This could only be players who are in extended Spring training due to injury or failure to be placed on a team following Spring training, combined with some Latin players who are very young. That would not be representative of any minor league team.
To my knowledge, there isn't a minor league classification of "rookie league" that is made up from guys who played "A" ball the prior year. In fact, Toronto has their minor league schedule for Spring Training posted and it is made up of AAA,AA,high A and low A and there are no players left after that. A team made up of "A" ball players would smoke a group of high school players, even an All Star group.
I think njbb is correct. This could only be players who are in extended Spring training due to injury or failure to be placed on a team following Spring training, combined with some Latin players who are very young. That would not be representative of any minor league team.
This team beat Connor State in 04.
http://ontariobluejays.com/
For some reason they have not kept the site up the last 2 years.
http://ontariobluejays.com/
For some reason they have not kept the site up the last 2 years.
BHD,
Thanks for the link.
I checked the 2005 schedule for the 18 and under team. Played a lot of games but I don't see any games against a minor league team, at any level.
They played plenty of JC's and some 4 year colleges in the MAC. Am I missing something?
Thanks for the link.
I checked the 2005 schedule for the 18 and under team. Played a lot of games but I don't see any games against a minor league team, at any level.
They played plenty of JC's and some 4 year colleges in the MAC. Am I missing something?
Yes the spring games in Florida are not shown for some reason.
The Rookie team was 1st year A ball players and not injured players. The team for some reason didn't finish the schedule scores in 05 and I can't find the link to 04 which was the year they posted everything including the Minor league games. They have stopped keeping the site up in regards to their schedule. The only thing I can think of is that they lost several players to the JR National team later in the season.
My son played against them in 05 and they had some great players. I know they played several teams 1st rear players which were refered to as Rookie Class teams in the write ups.
I will see if I can find the info.
The Rookie team was 1st year A ball players and not injured players. The team for some reason didn't finish the schedule scores in 05 and I can't find the link to 04 which was the year they posted everything including the Minor league games. They have stopped keeping the site up in regards to their schedule. The only thing I can think of is that they lost several players to the JR National team later in the season.
My son played against them in 05 and they had some great players. I know they played several teams 1st rear players which were refered to as Rookie Class teams in the write ups.
I will see if I can find the info.
I am familiar with the Ontario Blue Jays and I have seen them play several times over the past several years in tournaments in Michigan, including AABC Regional Tournaments. They are similar to the elite travel teams that play in the Great Lakes region.
The schedule on that link did not include any MAC teams, however. The Miami University teams were Miami University Community College teams in Ohio. It would be a very rare occasion that an NCAA DI baseball program would compete against a team like this as the game would count against its game limitations, and stats would not count for them. I really don't see any benefit for a DI team to do so.
Spring games in Florida are shown on that schedule; some of them took place at Cocoa Expo.
The schedule on that link did not include any MAC teams, however. The Miami University teams were Miami University Community College teams in Ohio. It would be a very rare occasion that an NCAA DI baseball program would compete against a team like this as the game would count against its game limitations, and stats would not count for them. I really don't see any benefit for a DI team to do so.
Spring games in Florida are shown on that schedule; some of them took place at Cocoa Expo.
Spring Training, Clearwater, Florida 18
2004-03-14 G01 - vs. Philadelphia Phillies "A"
L 9-6 stats
2004-03-15 G02 - vs. Indian River Community College
L 20-7 stats
2004-03-17 G03 - vs. Academie Baseball du Canada
L 3-2 stats
2004-03-17 G04 - vs. Academie Baseball du Canada
L 4-0 stats
2004-03-18 G05 - vs. New York Mets "A"
L 3-2 stats
2004-03-19 G06 - vs. Florida Marlins
L 4-0 stats
This is another Elite team. 04 schedule. This team is not as strong as OBJ.
OBJ came in 3rd in their league this last season. I can find lots more teams that played very well against ML A teams.
OBJ beat Connor State the year they won the D1 JC WS.
The question was could D! teams fair well against ML teams and I say yes. I have always believed the jump from college is not that huge. Ayway I hope my son keeps believing that.
OBJ is a top tier team. Look at the tourneys they have won.
2004-03-14 G01 - vs. Philadelphia Phillies "A"
L 9-6 stats
2004-03-15 G02 - vs. Indian River Community College
L 20-7 stats
2004-03-17 G03 - vs. Academie Baseball du Canada
L 3-2 stats
2004-03-17 G04 - vs. Academie Baseball du Canada
L 4-0 stats
2004-03-18 G05 - vs. New York Mets "A"
L 3-2 stats
2004-03-19 G06 - vs. Florida Marlins
L 4-0 stats
This is another Elite team. 04 schedule. This team is not as strong as OBJ.
OBJ came in 3rd in their league this last season. I can find lots more teams that played very well against ML A teams.
OBJ beat Connor State the year they won the D1 JC WS.
The question was could D! teams fair well against ML teams and I say yes. I have always believed the jump from college is not that huge. Ayway I hope my son keeps believing that.
OBJ is a top tier team. Look at the tourneys they have won.
quote:The schedule on that link did not include any MAC teams, however. The Miami University teams were Miami University Community College teams in Ohio.
grateful, thanks for the clarification.
For the games in Fla, during March, that would be in the middle of minor league Spring Training. There would not be any chance they would play a travel team at that point. Those guys are at the field at 7am, practice from 8-11am, or so, take extra work after that, and have daily games at 1pm against other MLB clubs.
BHD, despite how this might have been reported, there is little chance a high school travel team competed against a roster comprised of minor leaguers at any level, especially A ball.
quote:I have always believed the jump from college is not that huge. Ayway I hope my son keeps believing that.
I think you could be making a huge mistake, if that is your view. I have talked with upwards of 20 or so minor leaguers and read numerous interviews with others. Whether they played at Texas, Vanderbilt, Auburn or other top DI programs, every one has said the jump in the quality of play, of players, and expectation is huge.
I understand what you are saying but this was 1st year A ball players during the 2 mpnth spring training. At the time they played I did see the rosters and they were ligit players. I assume that is why they called in Rookie Class .
Senior Chris Emanuele at home plate after homering in the first inning of NU's exhibition game against the Boston Red Sox.
This was against the ML club at the same time of year. They held their own for a good part of the game. They had a full roster.
Senior Chris Emanuele at home plate after homering in the first inning of NU's exhibition game against the Boston Red Sox.
This was against the ML club at the same time of year. They held their own for a good part of the game. They had a full roster.
quote:the jump in the quality of play, of players, and expectation is huge.
21 infielddad
Thank you for posting the 2004 schedule. Using that and your prior posts, I have a sense of the games/competition. In Spring Training, the MLB teams only use designations of Low A to AAA. Low A is the players from the Rookie leagues the prior year, who were lower round picks or free agents, mixed with some very young Latin players.
Either the Phillies, Mets, etc split a squad of those players or played a game with that type of squad.
What you also need to know is that, unfortunately, most of the non Latin players from those Low A teams in Spring Training either get released the first week in April or by June following the draft. Those games would not be played against minor leaguers who get an assignment in April and play either High or Low A Ball for the next 144 games. If your impression is that those games are reflective of the level of play in the minor leagues, you could be making an enormous mistake. What you watched was a group of players who had huge dreams that didn't last more than a few more weeks, in many instances.
Either the Phillies, Mets, etc split a squad of those players or played a game with that type of squad.
What you also need to know is that, unfortunately, most of the non Latin players from those Low A teams in Spring Training either get released the first week in April or by June following the draft. Those games would not be played against minor leaguers who get an assignment in April and play either High or Low A Ball for the next 144 games. If your impression is that those games are reflective of the level of play in the minor leagues, you could be making an enormous mistake. What you watched was a group of players who had huge dreams that didn't last more than a few more weeks, in many instances.
My belief is that if he believes he can do it he will. He has alraedy faced ML players and has done very well.
We have lots of experience with ML players as our city had a team for almost 10 years. We were invoved with them on a daily basis. He threw with them and saw what they had.
He worked out with ML players under Ron Davis ( former NYY great). I will be the last one to tell him he can't do it.
Whats the worst that can happen ? get beat up ! He has done that and still believes.
We have lots of experience with ML players as our city had a team for almost 10 years. We were invoved with them on a daily basis. He threw with them and saw what they had.
He worked out with ML players under Ron Davis ( former NYY great). I will be the last one to tell him he can't do it.
Whats the worst that can happen ? get beat up ! He has done that and still believes.
Bobble, those would have to be second year players unless none of them signed following the previous June's draft. Rookie teams are not formed until after the draft; thus the short season leagues.
There are also several minor leaguers who get released at the end of spring training each spring. Some stay in extended spring training awaiting an assignment or waiting until June to be placed on a short season roster or get released.
There are also several minor leaguers who get released at the end of spring training each spring. Some stay in extended spring training awaiting an assignment or waiting until June to be placed on a short season roster or get released.
quote:I will be the last one to tell him he can't do it.
BHD, I have absolutely no argument with that statement.
What I am proposing is the view that the "jump isn't significant" may not be helpful. This is not a situation where past experience is a good predictor of future success.
When you get to minor league ball, you have to improve the quality of your play every single day. If you don't, you eventually get passed by others who do and you get released. They play 144 games for a reason. Rest assured that your son, and every other playing minor league ball must have a very positive outlook. While the improvement in the quality of play is significant, some of the players are able to make those adjustments and move up the ladder. Our son has "survived" minor league ball for 3 years. This off season, he conditioned with a passion I have never seen before. There is one reason: he knows he needs to be bigger, stronger, faster, and better to move to the next levels of play. He has absolutely no sense of security that what he did before means anything beginning March 5.
INFD which ML team is your son at? The Jays had their A team here for 10 years until the owners sold it to an outfit in NJ for millions. We also had a Pirate team here for a few years 10 miles from where I live. My son's elite team played there in their ball park for the last 2 years before college.
We have been around ML ball for years and know that it is tough but so is college.
We have been around ML ball for years and know that it is tough but so is college.
BHD,
Our son is with the Blue Jay's organization.
Our son is with the Blue Jay's organization.
I honesty think that D-1 baseball compare fairly to short season baseball with a light advantage for pro baseball over college. The ideal situation for me is to get a scholarship at a D-1 school, play 3 or four years, and them to sign professional. To sign for professional baseball means 1 to 5 % of chance to become a ML baseball player. Going to school means 90% opportunity of become a professional person, and still the 1-5 % chance of become a ML baseball player.
I believe common sense should tell you that once you get beyond a certain level in the minors, the teams are without a doubt better than the best D1. After all, the minors are composed of the best of these players from years before. They are also comprised of the best players in high school from back when these college players were in high school who have made it through a couple of years of pro ball.
However, I am not convinced that the lowest level of the minors is better than the best D1. The reason is that, while there are some outstanding former college players, there are a lot of very young players labeled with "potential" .
Anyone who is around the game, knows that professional baseball drafts on "potential" and "projection". While it serves them well eventually, the lowest level is filled with these players who are bigger on "potential" than actually "have game".
I'm sure we've all seen guys who get drafted ahead of guys we know can play the game. Unfortunately these guys either couldn't quite run quite fast enough, couldn't throw quite hard enough, or weren't quite big enough. The only thing they can do is play the game.
So until these pro players who are thought to have so much "potential" and "projection" are weeded out, I'll put my money on the top D1 team who are filled with guys who we know can play and compete.
However, I am not convinced that the lowest level of the minors is better than the best D1. The reason is that, while there are some outstanding former college players, there are a lot of very young players labeled with "potential" .
Anyone who is around the game, knows that professional baseball drafts on "potential" and "projection". While it serves them well eventually, the lowest level is filled with these players who are bigger on "potential" than actually "have game".
I'm sure we've all seen guys who get drafted ahead of guys we know can play the game. Unfortunately these guys either couldn't quite run quite fast enough, couldn't throw quite hard enough, or weren't quite big enough. The only thing they can do is play the game.
So until these pro players who are thought to have so much "potential" and "projection" are weeded out, I'll put my money on the top D1 team who are filled with guys who we know can play and compete.
quote:I honesty think that D-1 baseball compare fairly to short season baseball with a light advantage for pro baseball over college. The ideal situation for me is to get a scholarship at a D-1 school, play 3 or four years, and them to sign professional. To sign for professional baseball means 1 to 5 % of chance to become a ML baseball player. Going to school means 90% opportunity of become a professional person, and still the 1-5 % chance of become a ML baseball player.
Well said, Racab.
It is normal to be curious about D1 compared to minor league.
I wondered the same thing myself, outloud, on this board many years ago.
With some effort on his part, bbscout convinced me otherwise.
The players that start at D1 were usually standout allstars at their high school.
Until you have actually seen that process take place, it doesn't really hit home.
Starters at a D1 were probably the four hole hitter or leading hitter on their high school team.
The same process happens again at the D1.
But, instead of 1 player from the high school team to a D1, there might be three or four drafted into professional baseball.
So, those minor league teams are comprised of the best of the D1's.
Given that a short season team made up of the best players from the D1's, it should not be hard to comprehend that the minor league team is stronger.
Only the best pitchers and hitters survive..............
This topic reminds me of when the great Gretz signed his Pro contract in hockey. Everyone thought he would get killed. Look at Lebron, and crosby. Really not as big a step as people think.
BHD,
Just want to make sure we are still on topic and comparing college and professional baseball???
Look at all those high schoolers since Joe Nuxhall who stepped right in and became stars in MLB.
What was his name...David Clyde???
Let's just say, that based on your experience and my experience, we will agree to disagree. I will rely on my son and his teammates and my own eyes and stand firm in the position that it is at least as big a step as many people think, and much bigger than some think.
Just want to make sure we are still on topic and comparing college and professional baseball???
Look at all those high schoolers since Joe Nuxhall who stepped right in and became stars in MLB.
What was his name...David Clyde???
Let's just say, that based on your experience and my experience, we will agree to disagree. I will rely on my son and his teammates and my own eyes and stand firm in the position that it is at least as big a step as many people think, and much bigger than some think.
quote:I will rely on my son and his teammates and my own eyes and stand firm in the position that it is at least as big a step as many people think, and much bigger than some think.
DITTO!
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
This topic reminds me of when the great Gretz signed his Pro contract in hockey. Everyone thought he would get killed. Look at Lebron, and crosby. Really not as big a step as people think.
For every Gretsky and Feller and Lebron - there are thousands of guys that couldnt make the "next step" - year after year after year.
In most cases - not even close to the next step.
Comparing amateurs, hitting with aluminum rocket launchers, to Professionals - hitting with wood - even at the A level - is kinda silly IMO.
I am sorry, look like I missunderstood the point. I am not comparing college players to professionals, I am comparing players that signed from HS at 18 years old, and "just drafted" players from college that are playing SS baseball VS Some Juniors and seniors from D-1 baseball. Most of the players playing at SS baseball were playing college 2 weeks before the draft, and some HS players still struggling at SS 3 years after signning.
quote:quote:
I will rely on my son and his teammates and my own eyes and stand firm in the position that it is at least as big a step as many people think, and much bigger than some think.
DITTO!
DITTO to your DITTO!
quote:Originally posted by FrankF:quote:quote:
I will rely on my son and his teammates and my own eyes and stand firm in the position that it is at least as big a step as many people think, and much bigger than some think.
DITTO!
DITTO to your DITTO!
I'll see your DITTO!! and raise you two DITTOS!!
I am not saying excelling or contributing at the collegiate level is not difficult, thrilling or rewarding on a personal level for the player or his family. It is, very much so. Maybe 8-10% of college d1 players turn professional each year. Last time I checked, 100% of players in short season or rookie leagues were professional players. I don't think Major League Baseball drafts the middle 10% either. Do the math, as they say.
Here's a nice article about transition from juco to D1 and the "adjustment"
Byrns making smooth transition from junior college to Division I
by george watson | AVALANCHE-JOURNAL
Past rosters of the Texas Tech baseball program are lined with junior college players who failed to make the adjustment to Division I baseball. They're also full of players who not only made the adjustment but flourished.
Junior outfielder Geoff Byrns appears, at least early in the 2007 season, to be moving toward the latter. By doing so, he's providing even more potential to a Tech lineup already laced with power hitters.
"I've just been looking forward to this season as a learning experience for me," said Byrns, who transferred to Tech from Chabot (Calif.) Junior College. "My job is to get on base and expand the lineup and create some frustration for the pitchers, and be just one more tough (at-bat)."
And perhaps one of the most impressive aspects of Byrns' adjustment is that he's also having to get used to a new position. He played first base at Chabot, where as a sophomore he hit 17 home runs and drove in 72 runs, earning him the All-Coast Conference Player of the Year and Northern California Player of the Year honors as well as the Rawlings "Big Stick" award.
Only seven games into the season, junior college transfer Geoff Byrns is one of the most potent hitters in the Texas Tech Lineup.
But with sophomore James Leverton established at first and sophomore all-American Roger Kieschnick moving from left field to right, the coaching staff decided to give him a shot at left, and he adjusted well enough to earn the start on opening day.
Those junior college numbers, however, didn't distinguish him from hundreds of other junior college transfers who put up big numbers only to come to Tech and struggle in Division I baseball.
His play on the field, however, has.
Heading into this weekend's Midland College Classic, Byrns is the only Red Raider to hit safely in all seven games this season, and he is currently second on the team with a .393 batting average. During the four games of the Red Raider Classic last weekend, he hit .467 (7-for-15).
With those kind of numbers, he could fall into a third category - players who put up good numbers as juniors and left for the major leagues after just one season.
"So far, he's done OK," Tech head coach Larry Hays said. "It's a little adjustment period and some handle it better than others. You look at a guy like Joe Dillon who came here and hit six home runs his first year and 33 the next, so there is an adjustment there. The upside to junior college kids is they're older and they've been knocked around enough to where it's easier for them to adjust. But you may only have them for one year, so that's the downside."
Right now, however, Byrns is having too much fun. He credits this past summer's experience in the Alaska League with the Alaska Goldpanners, as well as the increase in level of coaching between junior college and Division I, as two reasons his adjustment has been, to this point, fairly pain-free.
"Only a handful of junior college guys were up there and the guys we saw were from Arizona State, Stanford and Nebraska," Byrns said of the Alaska League. "That really prepared me for this season and just built my confidence up a little bit knowing I could play with these guys. The main reason you go to Division I is the good coaching and we get a little bit better coaching up here, and that's prepared me to play in the outfield before."
And as long as he keeps going, he'll definitely end up on the list of more memorable players to wear the scarlet and black.
To comment on this story:
george.watson@lubbockonline.com 766-2166
patrick.gonzales@lubbockonline.com 766-8735
Byrns making smooth transition from junior college to Division I
by george watson | AVALANCHE-JOURNAL
Past rosters of the Texas Tech baseball program are lined with junior college players who failed to make the adjustment to Division I baseball. They're also full of players who not only made the adjustment but flourished.
Junior outfielder Geoff Byrns appears, at least early in the 2007 season, to be moving toward the latter. By doing so, he's providing even more potential to a Tech lineup already laced with power hitters.
"I've just been looking forward to this season as a learning experience for me," said Byrns, who transferred to Tech from Chabot (Calif.) Junior College. "My job is to get on base and expand the lineup and create some frustration for the pitchers, and be just one more tough (at-bat)."
And perhaps one of the most impressive aspects of Byrns' adjustment is that he's also having to get used to a new position. He played first base at Chabot, where as a sophomore he hit 17 home runs and drove in 72 runs, earning him the All-Coast Conference Player of the Year and Northern California Player of the Year honors as well as the Rawlings "Big Stick" award.
Only seven games into the season, junior college transfer Geoff Byrns is one of the most potent hitters in the Texas Tech Lineup.
But with sophomore James Leverton established at first and sophomore all-American Roger Kieschnick moving from left field to right, the coaching staff decided to give him a shot at left, and he adjusted well enough to earn the start on opening day.
Those junior college numbers, however, didn't distinguish him from hundreds of other junior college transfers who put up big numbers only to come to Tech and struggle in Division I baseball.
His play on the field, however, has.
Heading into this weekend's Midland College Classic, Byrns is the only Red Raider to hit safely in all seven games this season, and he is currently second on the team with a .393 batting average. During the four games of the Red Raider Classic last weekend, he hit .467 (7-for-15).
With those kind of numbers, he could fall into a third category - players who put up good numbers as juniors and left for the major leagues after just one season.
"So far, he's done OK," Tech head coach Larry Hays said. "It's a little adjustment period and some handle it better than others. You look at a guy like Joe Dillon who came here and hit six home runs his first year and 33 the next, so there is an adjustment there. The upside to junior college kids is they're older and they've been knocked around enough to where it's easier for them to adjust. But you may only have them for one year, so that's the downside."
Right now, however, Byrns is having too much fun. He credits this past summer's experience in the Alaska League with the Alaska Goldpanners, as well as the increase in level of coaching between junior college and Division I, as two reasons his adjustment has been, to this point, fairly pain-free.
"Only a handful of junior college guys were up there and the guys we saw were from Arizona State, Stanford and Nebraska," Byrns said of the Alaska League. "That really prepared me for this season and just built my confidence up a little bit knowing I could play with these guys. The main reason you go to Division I is the good coaching and we get a little bit better coaching up here, and that's prepared me to play in the outfield before."
And as long as he keeps going, he'll definitely end up on the list of more memorable players to wear the scarlet and black.
To comment on this story:
george.watson@lubbockonline.com 766-2166
patrick.gonzales@lubbockonline.com 766-8735
This is like comparing apples to oranges because of the bats. Why not use the wood bat summer college leagues like the Cape Cod league, which is made up of the best college players and compare it with the minor leagues.
Agreed on the bat, njbb.
I've watched two summers of collegiate league with the wooden bat.
And, then the change, going back to aluminum in the spring.
I'd guess that the collegiate leagues might bear some similarities to the minor league short season.
I've watched two summers of collegiate league with the wooden bat.
And, then the change, going back to aluminum in the spring.
I'd guess that the collegiate leagues might bear some similarities to the minor league short season.
I too am of the opinion that the pro level, any pro level is better than any college level.
I’ll even go with the percentages regarding college players who will turn pro in any given year. However there are some college teams that will produce a good number of pro players. It’s just that the soph and Fresh class is not eligible to sign with a pro club.
There are college teams who will have a couple or more players each year. Take this times the four classes and a top level college team actually can have 8 to 12 future pro players. The short season team will have 25 or more pro players all in there first year and some will be top high school draft picks.
So the above reasonable (I think) numbers… show that the pro team is much deeper, but it also shows that in a given game, the college team can put 9 guys on the field who will be pro players. Then it depends on who the college players are. For example… Vanderbilt this year has two players that are thought to be possible first pick of the next two drafts. There is NO pro team that is likely to have that on a short season team. Last year North Carolina had a guy who was in the major leagues the same year he pitched in college. So I guess one would have to say, he had a chance to beat a short season team that same year. The difference is… Andrew Miller couldn’t pitch every game of a series. But then again North Carolina had another first rounder on their staff.
Anyway, those who claim pro ball is better… I agree completely. Those who say the top D1 Colleges would not be able to compete in a short series… I disagree completely.
A first rounder is a first rounder! Some of them come out of the top DI programs every year. While some DI players will not play pro ball, they still play the game well enough to compete in any given game. First rounders coming out of small college or high school do not have the supporting cast to do the same thing unless they have a pitcher who is dominate (a first round pitcher). The pitcher is the one guy that can equalize everything.
IMO
One game/short series... could be very competitive
Full season... Pro level would dominate!
Yes... It's a big step up for most anyone!
Some college players will skip the lowest level.
The best pitchers coming out of college or high school often dominate the lower levels of pro ball
I’ll even go with the percentages regarding college players who will turn pro in any given year. However there are some college teams that will produce a good number of pro players. It’s just that the soph and Fresh class is not eligible to sign with a pro club.
There are college teams who will have a couple or more players each year. Take this times the four classes and a top level college team actually can have 8 to 12 future pro players. The short season team will have 25 or more pro players all in there first year and some will be top high school draft picks.
So the above reasonable (I think) numbers… show that the pro team is much deeper, but it also shows that in a given game, the college team can put 9 guys on the field who will be pro players. Then it depends on who the college players are. For example… Vanderbilt this year has two players that are thought to be possible first pick of the next two drafts. There is NO pro team that is likely to have that on a short season team. Last year North Carolina had a guy who was in the major leagues the same year he pitched in college. So I guess one would have to say, he had a chance to beat a short season team that same year. The difference is… Andrew Miller couldn’t pitch every game of a series. But then again North Carolina had another first rounder on their staff.
Anyway, those who claim pro ball is better… I agree completely. Those who say the top D1 Colleges would not be able to compete in a short series… I disagree completely.
A first rounder is a first rounder! Some of them come out of the top DI programs every year. While some DI players will not play pro ball, they still play the game well enough to compete in any given game. First rounders coming out of small college or high school do not have the supporting cast to do the same thing unless they have a pitcher who is dominate (a first round pitcher). The pitcher is the one guy that can equalize everything.
IMO
One game/short series... could be very competitive
Full season... Pro level would dominate!
Yes... It's a big step up for most anyone!
Some college players will skip the lowest level.
The best pitchers coming out of college or high school often dominate the lower levels of pro ball
PG,
Ya know, common sense has messed up plenty of good arguments.
Another way to look at it would be to ask oneself how effective Verlander would have been against short season A players during his last season in college.
Taking his 2003 season as being more representative he had a 7-6 record and a 2.40 ERA at Old Dominion. In his first season of pro ball he was 9-2 with a 1.67 ERA at the advanced A level then dominated AA even more before being promoted to the bigs.
Obviously he's an exceptional talent but it makes the point that the best don't always turn pro right after HS or play at the lower levels of pro ball out of college.
Generally speaking the best players out of our HS league go to college rather than turning pro out of HS although a few, not necessarily the most talented, do sign out of HS and our league produces some of the most talented players anywhere.
It might surprise some that the player who was probably the most talented in the league, Robert Stock, (went to college) was not the ace on his HS team and that he hit only about half the home runs that the league's leader, also a junior last season did. The ace went to college.
Ya know, common sense has messed up plenty of good arguments.
Another way to look at it would be to ask oneself how effective Verlander would have been against short season A players during his last season in college.
Taking his 2003 season as being more representative he had a 7-6 record and a 2.40 ERA at Old Dominion. In his first season of pro ball he was 9-2 with a 1.67 ERA at the advanced A level then dominated AA even more before being promoted to the bigs.
Obviously he's an exceptional talent but it makes the point that the best don't always turn pro right after HS or play at the lower levels of pro ball out of college.
Generally speaking the best players out of our HS league go to college rather than turning pro out of HS although a few, not necessarily the most talented, do sign out of HS and our league produces some of the most talented players anywhere.
It might surprise some that the player who was probably the most talented in the league, Robert Stock, (went to college) was not the ace on his HS team and that he hit only about half the home runs that the league's leader, also a junior last season did. The ace went to college.
Huskies play Boston Red Sox today
The baseball team faces the Boston Red Sox today at 1 p.m. at City of Palms Park in Ft. Myers, Florida. The Huskies will start junior Kris Dabrowiecki against 2003 World Series MVP Josh Beckett. It is the fifth time the Huskies have played the Red Sox in an exhibition game and the fourth time in spring training. Last season, the Huskies scored a pair of runs off the Red Sox, including a Chris Emanuele homer off Matt Clement.
Northeastern plays Red Sox today. The results should be interesting. Starting pitcher is from my area.
The baseball team faces the Boston Red Sox today at 1 p.m. at City of Palms Park in Ft. Myers, Florida. The Huskies will start junior Kris Dabrowiecki against 2003 World Series MVP Josh Beckett. It is the fifth time the Huskies have played the Red Sox in an exhibition game and the fourth time in spring training. Last season, the Huskies scored a pair of runs off the Red Sox, including a Chris Emanuele homer off Matt Clement.
Northeastern plays Red Sox today. The results should be interesting. Starting pitcher is from my area.
Boston Red Sox 11, Huskies 0
March 1, 2007
City of Palms Park (Ft. Myers, FL)
The Northeastern University pitching staff no-hit the Boston Red Sox through three innings and David Gustafson and James Donaldson got hits in the game, but the Huskies eventually lost, 11-0, to the Boston Red Sox on Thursday in an exhibition game at City of Palms Park in Fort Myers, Fla.
Gustafson, a redshirt freshman, hit a line-drive single to right center field on the first pitch of the game from 2003 World Series MVP Josh Beckett. Gustafson walked in his only other plate appearance and was the only player on the Huskies to reach base multiple times. Donaldson had the only other hit for the Huskies, smacking a line drive to right field to lead off the third inning against Craig Breslow.
The Husky pitching staff got off to an impressive start in the game. Junior Kris Dabrowiecki, sophomore Trevor Smith and junior Bobby Carrington combined for three shut-out, no-hit innings to begin the game. The Husky hurlers held the Red Sox hitless for three-and-two-thirds innings before Alex Ochoa doubled down the line off Charly Bashara.
Dabrowiecki started the game for the Huskies and pitched two-thirds of an inning, allowing no hits. He struck out J.D. Drew and then was relieved by Smith, who promptly struck out Mike Lowell. Smith retired all four batters that he faced and struck out a pair. Carrington followed Smith and also recorded a strikeout.
Non-roster invitee Scott White broke the game open for the Red Sox with a grand slam in the bottom of the sixth inning.
The Huskies are back in action to start their regular season on Saturday with a doubleheader vs. Indiana-Purdue at IMG Academies in Bradelton, Fla. The first game begins at 11:30 a.m.
• Box score (mlb.com)
March 1, 2007
City of Palms Park (Ft. Myers, FL)
The Northeastern University pitching staff no-hit the Boston Red Sox through three innings and David Gustafson and James Donaldson got hits in the game, but the Huskies eventually lost, 11-0, to the Boston Red Sox on Thursday in an exhibition game at City of Palms Park in Fort Myers, Fla.
Gustafson, a redshirt freshman, hit a line-drive single to right center field on the first pitch of the game from 2003 World Series MVP Josh Beckett. Gustafson walked in his only other plate appearance and was the only player on the Huskies to reach base multiple times. Donaldson had the only other hit for the Huskies, smacking a line drive to right field to lead off the third inning against Craig Breslow.
The Husky pitching staff got off to an impressive start in the game. Junior Kris Dabrowiecki, sophomore Trevor Smith and junior Bobby Carrington combined for three shut-out, no-hit innings to begin the game. The Husky hurlers held the Red Sox hitless for three-and-two-thirds innings before Alex Ochoa doubled down the line off Charly Bashara.
Dabrowiecki started the game for the Huskies and pitched two-thirds of an inning, allowing no hits. He struck out J.D. Drew and then was relieved by Smith, who promptly struck out Mike Lowell. Smith retired all four batters that he faced and struck out a pair. Carrington followed Smith and also recorded a strikeout.
Non-roster invitee Scott White broke the game open for the Red Sox with a grand slam in the bottom of the sixth inning.
The Huskies are back in action to start their regular season on Saturday with a doubleheader vs. Indiana-Purdue at IMG Academies in Bradelton, Fla. The first game begins at 11:30 a.m.
• Box score (mlb.com)
pretty cool, seems Tech did a pretty good job holding their own
http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-basebl/recaps/022807aaa.html
http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-basebl/recaps/022807aaa.html
Very cool !
quote:Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Boston Red Sox 11, Huskies 0
March 1, 2007
The Northeastern University pitching staff no-hit the Boston Red Sox through three innings
"no-hit the Red Sox...thru 3 innings"
Not sure I've ever heard that expression before. Maybe "held hitless" would've been more appropriate!
Didnt Miami beat the Florida Marlins a few years back?
I would say that any college team with a number 1 overall type pitcher, (price, miller, etc) would have a chance at beating any minor league team. However, position for position the any high A team is gonna be better than any college team no matter what.
I would say that any college team with a number 1 overall type pitcher, (price, miller, etc) would have a chance at beating any minor league team. However, position for position the any high A team is gonna be better than any college team no matter what.
Walawala ...
Respectfully disagree with you on this one. I do believe that a quality college pitcher and team could beat some of the lower level minor league teams ... rookie (many high school age players), short season (many college level players), and maybe even some low A teams where there are a lot of young players. But beyond that, I really don't think a college program with even the best pitcher is quite ready to beat 'any' minor league team. We have to remember that the minor league levels, especially AA and AAA, are stacked with very mature players, some in their late 20's as well as younger players who have been playing pro ball since they were 16 or 17 (speaking here of the Latin players).
Mr FB.M and I were just discussing this Sat over dinner while watching a super regional and despite how good these college teams are, how good their pitching is, the level of competition at high A, AA, and AAA is considerably higher than the best college baseball ... IMHO. The speed of the game, the savvy of the players, the plate discipline, the pitchers' physical maturity, etc., takes a giant leap at the higher levels of pro ball ... kind of like fielding a freshman high school team against a varsity team made up of only top senior players. The physical and mental maturity means a lot.
Again, JMHO FWIW
quote:I would say that any college team with a number 1 overall type pitcher, (price, miller, etc) would have a chance at beating any minor league team
Respectfully disagree with you on this one. I do believe that a quality college pitcher and team could beat some of the lower level minor league teams ... rookie (many high school age players), short season (many college level players), and maybe even some low A teams where there are a lot of young players. But beyond that, I really don't think a college program with even the best pitcher is quite ready to beat 'any' minor league team. We have to remember that the minor league levels, especially AA and AAA, are stacked with very mature players, some in their late 20's as well as younger players who have been playing pro ball since they were 16 or 17 (speaking here of the Latin players).
Mr FB.M and I were just discussing this Sat over dinner while watching a super regional and despite how good these college teams are, how good their pitching is, the level of competition at high A, AA, and AAA is considerably higher than the best college baseball ... IMHO. The speed of the game, the savvy of the players, the plate discipline, the pitchers' physical maturity, etc., takes a giant leap at the higher levels of pro ball ... kind of like fielding a freshman high school team against a varsity team made up of only top senior players. The physical and mental maturity means a lot.
Again, JMHO FWIW
I would have to agree with FBM.
quote:Originally posted by FutureBack.Mom:
Walawala ...quote:I would say that any college team with a number 1 overall type pitcher, (price, miller, etc) would have a chance at beating any minor league team
Respectfully disagree with you on this one. I do believe that a quality college pitcher and team could beat some of the lower level minor league teams ... rookie (many high school age players), short season (many college level players), and maybe even some low A teams where there are a lot of young players. But beyond that, I really don't think a college program with even the best pitcher is quite ready to beat 'any' minor league team. We have to remember that the minor league levels, especially AA and AAA, are stacked with very mature players, some in their late 20's as well as younger players who have been playing pro ball since they were 16 or 17 (speaking here of the Latin players).
Im sayin with a legitament guy like miller or lincecum, who have already pitched in the big leagues less than a year after their draft, could easily shut out any minor league for 9 innings with their best performance.
Lincecum has already dominated Big League teams. Miller has had some success as well.
Walawala ...
So we agree to disagree. I just don't think we can presume that these guys can come out of college and dominate at just ANY level minor league team for 9 innings. Takes nothing away from the quality of Lincecum or Miller, but their college level teams behind them would have to perform at the same level, IMO. Granted, I personally think the pitcher is the most important position on the field (obvious bias), but it takes 9 or 10 players to get the job done. So at some minor league levels, I would agree but I don't think the blanket 'ANY' applies.
But we can agree to disagree.
So we agree to disagree. I just don't think we can presume that these guys can come out of college and dominate at just ANY level minor league team for 9 innings. Takes nothing away from the quality of Lincecum or Miller, but their college level teams behind them would have to perform at the same level, IMO. Granted, I personally think the pitcher is the most important position on the field (obvious bias), but it takes 9 or 10 players to get the job done. So at some minor league levels, I would agree but I don't think the blanket 'ANY' applies.
But we can agree to disagree.
quote:Originally posted by FutureBack.Mom:
Walawala ...
So we agree to disagree. I just don't think we can presume that these guys can come out of college and dominate at just ANY level minor league team for 9 innings. Takes nothing away from the quality of Lincecum or Miller, but their college level teams behind them would have to perform at the same level, IMO. Granted, I personally think the pitcher is the most important position on the field (obvious bias), but it takes 9 or 10 players to get the job done. So at some minor league levels, I would agree but I don't think the blanket 'ANY' applies.
But we can agree to disagree.
I agree with you. Good pitching can hide many flaws in a team and win championships. Look at some of the teams making it to the college world seires. UCI has had great outings from Gorgen and Etheridge. Without those guys Irvine is an average Team. With them, they might win the CWS. Theres no doubt that any Hi A team will be better position for position than any college team no matter what.
PG's view is logical & makes sense (to me anyway)
and also wondering how many true prosects are on a normal minor league roster?
if 100% where are the filler non-prospects playing? do they have their own league?
since it wouldn't be unusual for a top DI to have 4 or 5+ true prospects, it makes sense that the DI could be competitive if 1 or 2 were pretty good pitchers
a guy I know is a journeyman filler playing AAA
the discussion was could they compete well, not dominate ..quote:by FBM: I just don't think we can presume that these guys can come out of college and dominate at just ANY level minor league team for 9 innings.
and also wondering how many true prosects are on a normal minor league roster?
if 100% where are the filler non-prospects playing? do they have their own league?
since it wouldn't be unusual for a top DI to have 4 or 5+ true prospects, it makes sense that the DI could be competitive if 1 or 2 were pretty good pitchers
a guy I know is a journeyman filler playing AAA
quote:I would say that any college team with a number 1 overall type pitcher, (price, miller, etc) would have a chance at beating any minor league team. However, position for position the any high A team is gonna be better than any college team no matter what.
The problem with this statement is that a minor league season is 144 games. Could Price, Miller, etc "have a chance" of winning one/some if they were pitching? Well sure they would. Baseball is that type of game. Would the college team with a Price or Miller be competitive over 144? Absolutely not, IMO.
The other flaw in the quoted information is that it seems to forget there might be a pretty darn good pitcher on that minor league roster. Heck, they might even be the equal, or even more accomplished, than Price or Miller. You haven't seen them on CSTV, or other broadcasts, but what if we throw out Chuck Lofgren, Eric Hurley, or Homer Bailey(just called up), as a few examples, for that minor league team. How do we think that DI college team is going to do against these guys who are 92-100(Bailey), 91-93 with a great change up(Hurley) and a 91-95 fastball, plus slider and change(Lofgren).
Minor league has an incredible amount of talent. Many were stars in DI college baseball. When you combine that with the players they draw from the Latin and International countries, you realize the huge gap between college and the minor leagues when you play a full season of baseball, which is always the measure, isn't it????
I hope I am not being presumptuous but I think bbscout is rolling his eyes, again.
Bee>
Understand your point but I was specifically addressing this comment by Walawala:
I may have misunderstood what he/she meant by 'easily shut out ... for 9 innings' because I saw the word dominate when discussing Lincecum, and thought the implication was that a team with such a pitcher could dominate any minor league team. Mea culpa if I misunderstood.
I believe infieldad has expressed it well in terms of competing over the long haul of a minor league season, which is just what Mr FB.M expressed last night at dinner when I told him about this discussion ... perhaps on a given day but not over the long season.
infieldad ...
Ref bbscout ... you might well be right about the rolling eyes.
quote:the discussion was could they compete well, not dominate ..
Understand your point but I was specifically addressing this comment by Walawala:
quote:Im sayin with a legitament guy like miller or lincecum, who have already pitched in the big leagues less than a year after their draft, could easily shut out any minor league for 9 innings with their best performance.
Lincecum has already dominated Big League teams. Miller has had some success as well.
I may have misunderstood what he/she meant by 'easily shut out ... for 9 innings' because I saw the word dominate when discussing Lincecum, and thought the implication was that a team with such a pitcher could dominate any minor league team. Mea culpa if I misunderstood.
I believe infieldad has expressed it well in terms of competing over the long haul of a minor league season, which is just what Mr FB.M expressed last night at dinner when I told him about this discussion ... perhaps on a given day but not over the long season.
infieldad ...
Ref bbscout ... you might well be right about the rolling eyes.
So i think we all agree on this issue...
Of course no college team could come close to competing in a minor league season. I was only talking about a 1 game matchup if the best college pitcher in the nation was on the bump.
Most minor league teams have 5 friday night guys for their rotation with 5 friday night guys in the pen.
Of course no college team could come close to competing in a minor league season. I was only talking about a 1 game matchup if the best college pitcher in the nation was on the bump.
Most minor league teams have 5 friday night guys for their rotation with 5 friday night guys in the pen.
quote:Originally posted by U of A Supporter:
Would love to hear some opinions on how the various stages of Minor League Ball compare to a large D1 school (like SEC, Big 12, ACC). Talent level of players, conditioning, etc..
I was rereading this thread and was wondering how this years crop of pro player parents compare the level of base ball in the minors compared the college
I know Orlando's son has seen a few levels of ball
The long season can take a toll on the body. what about the college season ? can you even compare since college players also have to study.
As fas as short season in the NYPenn, what you have basically a lot of college players now playing with wood. I can't speak for the other levels. Long season A is much different than short season A.
A compressed long season in college can take just as much toll on the body, IMO. 100 innings in a short period of time is tough. The hardest adjustment Dave said the pitchers found was going from 4 days to 7, different preparation.
Travel distance was not that bad (for the short time he was playing), no horror stories I had heard about, he was used to long bus rides (7-10) in college. The schedule is pretty much set up to make life less on the road than more. I am not sure about other leagues.
My son's roommate is a HS 40 something round pick given 30-40K to sign. Three weeks ago he came ready to play. Up at 6:30 am to play early games in the GCL, and nothing to do from that afternoon to the next morning until you have to get up again 7 days a week has become a pretty redundant routine. Of course not living far from the beach is a plus for him, but being only 17, no transportation, very far from home, he is very limited in what he can and can't do here in south florida. Also, the cards GLC in FL is made up mostly of those being moved up from the rookie league in South America, whereas, Johnson City rookie league has more US players and those from college. I am not sure it is such a great place for rookies in that sense. My son's opinion, from what he has seen of the GCL rookie league is young HS age players playing with wood.
My opinion will always remain the same on the subject, unless you have been given a higher round opportunity or get nice life changing money to sign, go to school first.
A compressed long season in college can take just as much toll on the body, IMO. 100 innings in a short period of time is tough. The hardest adjustment Dave said the pitchers found was going from 4 days to 7, different preparation.
Travel distance was not that bad (for the short time he was playing), no horror stories I had heard about, he was used to long bus rides (7-10) in college. The schedule is pretty much set up to make life less on the road than more. I am not sure about other leagues.
My son's roommate is a HS 40 something round pick given 30-40K to sign. Three weeks ago he came ready to play. Up at 6:30 am to play early games in the GCL, and nothing to do from that afternoon to the next morning until you have to get up again 7 days a week has become a pretty redundant routine. Of course not living far from the beach is a plus for him, but being only 17, no transportation, very far from home, he is very limited in what he can and can't do here in south florida. Also, the cards GLC in FL is made up mostly of those being moved up from the rookie league in South America, whereas, Johnson City rookie league has more US players and those from college. I am not sure it is such a great place for rookies in that sense. My son's opinion, from what he has seen of the GCL rookie league is young HS age players playing with wood.
My opinion will always remain the same on the subject, unless you have been given a higher round opportunity or get nice life changing money to sign, go to school first.
I agree with everyone on the board. DIA baseball can not match a (R)ookie Club. I would not have picked anyone to play on my team from Southern Miss. DIA 1998 to play on our 1995 Mets Diamond Team and that was 3 year's before before college. I would not pick a 5th Round Yankee SS a 37th Round Yankees Pitcher much less a #57th rounder to start everyday. Not from what I have played with and against in the past. My awnser is no! No comparison and ya'll can take em' better for me. I wouldn't even pick 1/2 of MLB's back-up Short-Stop's to play on my team. Hitting .200-.260. with error's botting will not cut the mustard period and I stand my ground.
Minor League baseball is far superior to division 1 baseball. Stick aluminum bats in minor leaguers hands and see what happens. Plus, if division 1 schools were comparable then all of their players would be drafted and playing professionally.
How many players on UCLA's current roster do you think will be drafted over the next 3 years? Pretty much the entire roster and it will include multiple 1st and 2nd round picks.