Creatine

My Standard response......

*Please note--I do not recommend use of Creatine by anyone under the age of 18. As with all supplements, there may be some health risks that are the responsibility of the user. Do your research before you decide to take a supplement!

Creatine is an amino acid (amino acids are the building blocks of protein) which is made in the body by the liver and kidneys, and is derived from the diet through meat and animal products. Creatine (usually in the form of creatine monohydrate) is a supplement taken to enhance strength training performance. Creatine Monohydrate is a white, odorless crystalline powder, clear and colorless in solution.


Creatine is a supplement that serves as an energy reserve in muscle cells. Muscular contraction is powered by the breakdown of ATP (adenosine triphosphate) to ADP (adenosine diphosphate). When all the ATP is broken down, creatine phosphate in the muscle donates a phosphate group to ADP, and further energy reactions can occur. Creatine monohydrate is a precursor to creatine phosphate. By supplementing with CM, CP levels in muscle apparently are maximized, and more muscular work can occur, since there are greater energy reserves to use.

Many people report increasing their lean muscle mass while using CM, though gains seem to stop after a certain point.

Some people report symptoms including headaches, clenched teeth, and the sound of blood rushing in their ears while using CM. Creatines effects on blood pressure are an open question. Since it
has the effect of fluid retention in muscle, it might increase blood pressure in the same way high sodium levels do, but this has not been
established or refuted.

In addition to this, one other symptom reported is stomach and muscle cramps. Reducing the intake of creatine can lead to a reduction in severity of the cramps. The cramping is usually a result of dehydration caused by creatine intake. If using creatine, you should drink PLENTY of water.

Scientific evidence supporting creatine is there, but while some very good results have been reported in strength increases, others have reported no significant gains while taking the supplement. Like all supplements, supplementing creatine is useless if your body already has enough of it. Further supplementation is then not needed and just a waste of money. If however, you do not have the optimal levels of creatine in your muscle cells, then supplementation can enhance your training. Some people get minimal or no effect from creatine. This is due to their already high creatine levels due to dietary intake or the efficiency/inefficiency that they produce ATP. If you take creatine monohydrate and don't notice any results in about 2 weeks it's a good bet that you're one of these people.

Once strength gains plateau, your muscle cells are be saturated with creatine and since the body loses about 1-2% creatine a day you should be able to get away with cycling on and off creatine to lengthen your results. Once you stop creatine supplementation and your body clears it 100% (about 2 month process) you'll probably be back at your old strength and muscle mass levels.

Parts of this post are copyrighted by Paul Moses.

quote:

Originally posted by ump6132:
My son wants to take a creatine supplement to help build muscle. Has anyone have experience with this . What are the pros and cons? He is a pitcher age 15 I am worried about health issues and weather he should even be concerned about this at his age.

A 15-year-old is best suited eating right, working out, and letting nature take its course. Personally, I'm not a fan of creatine, nor most supplements, especially for those under 18, because so much of a body's growth at that stage has more to do with DNA than anything else.

Also, most of the great claims for creatine (and other supplements) seem to be produced by companies selling it ... a bright red flag in my book. But you can form your own opinion after reading this, from an M.D. at Rice U., who has no motivation one way or the other:
http://www.rice.edu/~jenky/sports/creatine.html

If you want to take something safe and that you know will never be illegal-at the college level for sure. Take advocare. It helped me a lot.

I take creatine and have for about a year and a half now and I love everything its done for me.

It's hard to tell at you guys' age whether your increase in strength was helped by Creatine or not. At your age, if you're working out regularly you can gain muscle mass and strength pretty rapidly on your own. (Ah, those were the days!) My own son has gained about 8 lbs. of muscle mass in the past 3 months since starting with a top notch weight trainer/conditioning guru. I have been amazed. No supplements involved, just solid workouts and a teenage appetite to fuel them.

What I'm telling you is, don't think it's all in the Creatine. Give yourself some credit, for one thing. For another, the mindset that the Creatine is great is not but a step or two away from the mindset that you should use more, or maybe something stronger -- and more dangerous. Don't start down that road.

i know people that take creatine and my parents wont let me, and im fine with that in most respects. but there are players are still getting an advantage over me, an advantage that can = thousands of dollars in scholarships. Why would anybody deny themselves of such an advantage that is perfectly legal? And steroids or GHG or whatever is cheating. The mindset for me at least is completely different. Creatine is a tool to help you get better, just like a batspeed program will help you hit hte ball farther. Being on a batspeed program doesn't put me a step or two away from corking my bat. If you respect the game, you won't cheat, and if creatine was illegal, people with the respect and love for the game would not take it.

quote:

Originally posted by s2fmf:
i know people that take creatine and my parents wont let me, and im fine with that in most respects. but there are players are still getting an advantage over me, an advantage that can = thousands of dollars in scholarships. Why would anybody deny themselves of such an advantage that is perfectly legal? And steroids or GHG or whatever is cheating. The mindset for me at least is completely different. Creatine is a tool to help you get better, just like a batspeed program will help you hit hte ball farther. Being on a batspeed program doesn't put me a step or two away from corking my bat. If you respect the game, you won't cheat, and if creatine was illegal, people with the respect and love for the game would not take it.

I'll give you two good reasons:

1. There is no hard, scientific evidence that a creatine supplement will definitely help you. (Claims made by companies that sell creatine do not qualify as scientific evidence.)

2. There HAS been scientific evidence that a creatine supplement MIGHT harm you.

It's too early to tell --- no one's been taking creatine for more than 10 years so the evidence is inconclusive.

Back in the 1960s and 1970s, steroids weren't illegal either. But 20 years later we found out it was responsible for all kinds of disfigurements, cancer, and death.

This isn't football, where size and strength mean everything to a player. Baseball is a sport of technique. Strength does help, but only to a point. You still have to know how to swing a bat, and throw and field a ball.

Don't believe it? Check out who the all-time homerun kings are, in MLB and Japan: Hank Aaron and Sadaharu Oh. Aaron is listed as 6'0" (was really closer to 5'11") 180 pounds, and no one would call him "musclebound". He hit at a time when pitching dominated the game (not like today where a 4.00 ERA is considered "good"). Aaron did it with hard work, brains, and great technique.

Oh was almost the exact same size --- 5'11", 175 lbs. --- and hit 868 home runs. Again, not with raw strength, but with perserverance, pitch judgment, and great mechanics.

If this were a football forum I might see your point regarding others getting an advantage ... but in baseball it doesn't fly.

BTW yes I think Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds may have taken steroids, but if you deflated their muscles to normal size (say, where they were at age 18), their hitting mechanics, reflexes, eyesight, and other pure skills would still allow them to dominate HS and college baseball. In fact, they both DID dominate the competition before they juiced.

Have you personally dealt with Creatine?Have you worked with anyone who has?While it has its risks(heck,the multivitamin I take from GNC has its risks),the benefit can be substantial.

Every product has its risks,EVERY PRODUCT.Steroids were known to be harmful and have deadly effects.Players knew it,and thats why its harmful.

Creatine has its positives and negatives.Like any other product you put into your body,it has its risks and rewards.It is on the Open market IN HEALTH FOOD STORES,so Im pretty sure its not a poison.

I personally use it every other work out,and have seen substantial benefits.If Im correct,its in your system for roughly 2 months,and then it clears.Obviously,if you take too much,yes,the outcome will be rather ugly.However,if you take it moderately,and dont take it year round,you can see some positive benefits.

The trainers and physicians I have talked to before taking creatine,have said nearly the same thing as you,OnBaseball,so you are correct.However,they also said if taken in moderation,and not consumed in large amounts,it should be considered safe and possibly beneficial.

So while I agree with most everything you said,it has risks,yes,but it also has its rewards.It stimulates a process in the body that is beneficial to an athlete,so its not terrible.Its not exactly 100% safe,I agree with you on that in every aspect,but its like taking any other vitamin or substance/medicine,it has its risks and rewards.

quote:

Originally posted by s2fmf:
an advantage that can = thousands of dollars in scholarships. Why would anybody deny themselves of such an advantage that is perfectly legal?

At some point, you have to make a decision--what is more important, my health, or the money? When you start rationalizing things like you have in your post, you are headed down a dangerous, dangerous road.

quote:

Originally posted by futurecatcher27:
Have you personally dealt with Creatine?

Yes, I took creatine for many years.

quote:

Originally posted by futurecatcher27:

Have you worked with anyone who has?

Yes again. In fact, I know many people who have taken steroids, and I've seen them suffer some serious effects.

quote:

Originally posted by futurecatcher27:


It is on the Open market IN HEALTH FOOD STORES,so Im pretty sure its not a poison.

Cigarettes can be found on the open market, and I'm pretty sure that they are a poison.....Also, how many products have the FDA pulled from the market because of health issues. Remember ephedra? Everyone said it was safe. Do a little research and look up a product called "Hot Stuff" and see what the FDA found out about this "legal" supplement.

quote:

Originally posted by futurecatcher27:


The trainers and physicians I have talked to before taking creatine,have said nearly the same thing as you,OnBaseball,so you are correct.However,they also said if taken in moderation,and not consumed in large amounts,it should be considered safe and possibly beneficial.

I feel the same way as these trainers and physicians do about creatine. However, I am not going to recommend or encourage ANYONE to take it, ESPECIALLY teenagers. If they do their research and decide it is a good choice, then great! But I am risking way too much by recommending a product that is "relatively" safe or may even have negative side effects later on down the road. Again, it is just too early to tell. You look back at some of the things that people put into their bodies in the late 1800's, early 1900's, you would be shocked!!!! They thought the stuff was good for them, but we now know that they were putting harmful things into their bodies.....

Quote: "It's on the Open market in HEALTH FOOD STORES, so I'm pretty sure it's not a poison".

So was ephedra available in health food stores before it killed an Oriole pitcher. Ephedra is now banned in the United States.

Dietary supplements are regulated very differently in the United States than are over-the-counter and prescription drugs. For the pharmaceuticals (medicinal drugs), the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) must make an affirmative finding of safety BEFORE a drug can be marketed. Manufacturers usually spend years and millions of dollars to bring a pharmaceutical to market. So, most risks are known and very well characterized before any pharmaceutical reaches consumers.

Not so for dietary supplements, which are considered "foods" under U.S. law and do not have to receive FDA approval BEFORE they are marketed. So, a dietary supplement can be marketed before its safety is well documented and, as a result, there almost have to be "bodies in the street" before the government can take any kind of regulatory action.

So, be very, very careful with dietary supplements. As other posts have alluded, the current dietary supplement rage can turn into tomorrow's ephedra.

See http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/supplmnt.html to understand fully how supplements are regulated.

Falconhawk is correct in how the FDA regulates nutritional/sports supplements. Technically, you could go to your kitchen, mix up some blue Kool-Aid, add sugar, maybe some vitamins, protein powder, and sprinkle in a little bit of steroids, and then you could market your very own supplement!! This is basically what the original "Hot Stuff" was all about. People were taking this weight/muscle gainer and getting huge. The FDA finally tested it and found it had steroids in it!!!

Have I tried creatine?

No, had no reason to do so. I'm not a bodybuilder, weightlifter, nor football player.

Have I tried 500 swings a day, batting drills off a tee / soft toss, 2 hours a day in the weight room, working with good coaches, and a healthy diet?

Yes, and it helped me get a D1 scholarship, .400 batting average, $100,000 education, and nearly a shot at the pros (freak injury, not lack of performance kept that from happening).

As for the person stating "It's on the Open market in HEALTH FOOD STORES, so I'm pretty sure it's not a poison" ...

A few already pointed out ephedra and cigarettes / tobacco. I'll also point out alcohol and Andro, which was legal for a while ... I believe it was what McGwire claimed to use.

I'll also point out that there have been literally hundreds of "supplements" lining the shelves that do absolutely nothing for the body. For example, all the "Growth Hormone" scams out there, the endless cans of "weight gainer", and "anabolic" concoctions made from whatever herb de rigeur marketing companies are currently promoting (jujube, yohimbe, ginseng, etc.).

The snake oil vendors from the late 1800's have been reincarnated as some of today's quick fix experts. Caveat emptor ("Let the buyer beware") with regard to performance enhancing supplements.

My last post was a question for Onbaseball.

While I agree with most everything you said,OnBaseball,and like you said,we wont know the side effects for some many years more,I cant see it being harmful to an athlete according to current studies.Studies have both shown it to be beneficial and harmful.

Ive heard bad things about whey protien aswell,but I guess its like every other chemical you put into your body,whether it be a medicine or a sports nutrition supplement,it has its risks.

on a side note,this would be a great topic to debate for my direct refutation paper in english

"Fluid retention in the muscle" and your heart is a muscle, that scares me a little. I used creatine several cycles in my mid 30's over a period of maybe 2 yrs and I definitely felt like it made me leaner and more muscular. It also kept making me feel like I was about to have a heart attack, I was feeling tightness inside my chest and had ringing in my ears. I was never sure if that was just in my head or what but reluctantly quit using it and my symptons cleared up.
I know tons of people have used it with no visible side effects but I couldn't seem to trick my body (or head) into feeling like it was a chance I wanted to take.

quote:

Originally posted by OnBaseball:
Have I tried creatine?

No, had no reason to do so. I'm not a bodybuilder, weightlifter, nor football player.

I'm not really sure what this has to do with not taking creatine. Creatine is beneficial to all strength and power athletes when taken correctly, which is when in correct doses with lots of water.

Whether or not someone chooses to take it is personal. I chose yes, and when my diet was "on" it helped me add 15 pounds and I was almost at 20 pounds before I got food poisoning, and then I lost most of it when I was afraid to eat meat for about a week and a half (lost nearly all the weight, which I have since put most back on). If you choose no, then fine.

Also, along with being potentially harmful, this could be a miracle supplement. No one knows because there has never been a creatine study done with participants under 18 for purposes beneficial to us. I have used creatine for nearly 3 years now and I have not had any creatine related health problems (severe cramps, dehydration, everyone gets diarrhea so I have never seen how any one supplement can be responsible for this). That is probably in part because of my fluid intake, but I didn't just dive in to supplementation like other 13 year olds, I looked around before I took anything.

If someone on here were to take creatine and felt like they were having problems, please stop immediately. Innocent Bystander brought up a great point that different people have different reactions to the same items.

quote:

Originally posted by UpstateNY2008:

quote:

Originally posted by OnBaseball:
Have I tried creatine?

No, had no reason to do so. I'm not a bodybuilder, weightlifter, nor football player.

I'm not really sure what this has to do with not taking creatine.

The point is that a baseball player --- specifically an amateur --- doesn't need creatine, or any other "supplements", to be a better player. Amateur baseball players get better through refining their game and repetition. A baseball player doesn't need extra weight or super strength to be a better hitter. All the strength needed for baseball can be gained from working hard, swinging a bat, and eating right.

Ok let me start off by saying I don't recommend creatine to athletes under 18....

But after following this thread for a few days I think there's a need for some facts to be presented.

The following studies have proven creatine to be completely safe in the measured parameters...

-Farquhar WB, Zambraski EJ Effects of creatine use on the athlete's kidney. Curr Sports Med Rep. 2002 Apr;1(2):103-6.
-Groeneveld GJ, Beijer C, Veldink JH, Kalmijn S, Wokke JH, van den Berg LH. Few adverse effects of long-term creatine supplementation in a placebo-controlled trial.
-Havenetidis K, Bourdas D. Creatine supplementation: effects on urinary excretion and anaerobic performance. J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2003 Sep;43(3):347-55.
-Pline KA, Smith CL. Ann The effect of creatine intake on renal function. Pharmacother. 2005 Jun;39(6):1093-6.
-Rawson ES, Persky AM, Price TB, Clarkson PM. Effects of repeated creatine supplementation on muscle, plasma, and urine creatine levels. J Strength Cond Res. 2004 Feb;18(1):162-7.
-Schroder H, Terrados N, Tramullas A. Risk assessment of the potential side effects of long-term creatine supplementation in team sport athletes.Eur J Nutr. 2005 Jun;44(4):255-61

Pretty convincing to me. In addition there has also been a few studies that proved creatine did not have any negative effect in subjects with pre-existing kidney conditions.

That's pretty powerful because these subjects are extremely delicate and even high protein diets can effect them. But high protein diets have been proven to have no ill effect in anyone with normal kidney function.

In addition creatine is being used creatine to treat a variety of medical conditions, including a form of muscular dystrophy and Lou Gehrig's disease.

There are also studies that show positive effects of creatine on glucose tolerance when combined with resistance training and protein supplementation. This is a finding may be extremely important because type II diabetes is one of the fastest growing diseases in the Western world.

Studies also show creatine supplementation can decrease the level of homocysteine, a toxic indicator for cardiovascular disease.

In fact, close to 50% of males who experienced heart attacks had cholesterol levels that were considered normal while their homocysteine levels were elevated. If you don't know your homecysteine leevls I suggest you get them checked ASAP.

This means that creatine has been shown to reduce the risk for the number one killer in the Western world.

Creatine has been shown to enhance memory and score on an intelligence test in vegetarians and has been shown to reduce mental fatigue and enhance brain oxygen uptake.

So obviously creatine is being used for many reasons outside of just athletic performance and is being proven safe.

There are no studies over 10 plus years, but according to researchers, all signs indicate proper use of creatine (Notice I say PROPER) will not cause any negative long term side effects in healthy individuals.

With that said the amount of creatine that needs to be used is very small...between 1-5 grams per day.

But it only needs to be used when training and nutrition are 100% spot on as it's a supplement, not a staple.

Creatine, like anything else in this world, is most likely unsafe in high amounts for long periods of time.

What if any is the difference between Creatine and protein drinks like Muscle milk, are protein drinks harmful?

My son used creatine in college under the supervision of the trainers----odd thing---sodas and fast food disappeared from his diet---he followed the regimen religiously and it helped him

Are their side effects? who knows? --are there side effects from the medicines and over the counter supplements/ vitamins you may be taking?


I know there are side effects from the meds I am on !!!---

quote:

Originally posted by OnBaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by UpstateNY2008:

quote:

Originally posted by OnBaseball:
Have I tried creatine?

No, had no reason to do so. I'm not a bodybuilder, weightlifter, nor football player.

I'm not really sure what this has to do with not taking creatine.

The point is that a baseball player --- specifically an amateur --- doesn't need creatine, or any other "supplements", to be a better player. Amateur baseball players get better through refining their game and repetition. A baseball player doesn't need extra weight or super strength to be a better hitter. All the strength needed for baseball can be gained from working hard, swinging a bat, and eating right.

Point well taken. I agree with what you have said about practice. No one can deny baseball is a skill specific sport, but what whould stop an athlete who puts in all the practice and the lifting to take 3-5 grams of creatine post-workout?

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
What if any is the difference between Creatine and protein drinks like Muscle milk, are protein drinks harmful?

I have heard that muscle milk is a bad idea because of their patented formula, and the creatine they have created. If Jsorb reads this he might know what I'm talking about, but I have seen Cytosport's Muscle Milk decrease in popularity amongst weightlifters recently.

quote:

Originally posted by OnBaseball:

quote:

Originally posted by s2fmf:
i know people that take creatine and my parents wont let me, and im fine with that in most respects. but there are players are still getting an advantage over me, an advantage that can = thousands of dollars in scholarships. Why would anybody deny themselves of such an advantage that is perfectly legal? And steroids or GHG or whatever is cheating. The mindset for me at least is completely different. Creatine is a tool to help you get better, just like a batspeed program will help you hit hte ball farther. Being on a batspeed program doesn't put me a step or two away from corking my bat. If you respect the game, you won't cheat, and if creatine was illegal, people with the respect and love for the game would not take it.

I'll give you two good reasons:

1. There is no hard, scientific evidence that a creatine supplement will definitely help you. (Claims made by companies that sell creatine do not qualify as scientific evidence.)

2. There HAS been scientific evidence that a creatine supplement MIGHT harm you.

It's too early to tell --- no one's been taking creatine for more than 10 years so the evidence is inconclusive.

Back in the 1960s and 1970s, steroids weren't illegal either. But 20 years later we found out it was responsible for all kinds of disfigurements, cancer, and death.

This isn't football, where size and strength mean everything to a player. Baseball is a sport of technique. Strength does help, but only to a point. You still have to know how to swing a bat, and throw and field a ball.

Don't believe it? Check out who the all-time homerun kings are, in MLB and Japan: Hank Aaron and Sadaharu Oh. Aaron is listed as 6'0" (was really closer to 5'11") 180 pounds, and no one would call him "musclebound". He hit at a time when pitching dominated the game (not like today where a 4.00 ERA is considered "good"). Aaron did it with hard work, brains, and great technique.

Oh was almost the exact same size --- 5'11", 175 lbs. --- and hit 868 home runs. Again, not with raw strength, but with perserverance, pitch judgment, and great mechanics.

If this were a football forum I might see your point regarding others getting an advantage ... but in baseball it doesn't fly.

BTW yes I think Mark McGwire and Barry Bonds may have taken steroids, but if you deflated their muscles to normal size (say, where they were at age 18), their hitting mechanics, reflexes, eyesight, and other pure skills would still allow them to dominate HS and college baseball. In fact, they both DID dominate the competition before they juiced.

Please post this "scientific evidence". Also, the creatine steriod analogy is ridiculous. Creatine has an excellent track record and has been around for more than ten years...it also has a fabulous medical study record, without ONE adverse side effect ever reported in the proper conditions. Creatine is the most studied supplement besides caffeine. Creatine helps in the weight room for strength and size purposes, this is a fact, which in turn may help one become a stronger baseball player. Creatine's effects are vastly beneficial to one's health...what am I missing here? I'm not saying that a 15 year old with a ****** diet should be taking it, but really...

John

Thank you for your reply.

You seem to be saying that proper use of creatine is safe and has produced positives results; why then do you suggest the under 18 cut off


Thanks

Just adding to the information needed for individuals to make informed decisions ---

One of the best summaries of the scientific body of evidence on creatine was published by the Health and Consumer Protection Directorate-General of the European Commission in September 2000. While now a few years old, the report does present a nicely balanced summary of the science and it is worthwhile reading to those who use, or are considering using, creatine. It's only 3-4 pages.

The full document is available at http://ec.europa.eu/food/fs/sc/scf/out70_en.pdf. The conclusions are provided below:

"It can be concluded that although many efficacy trials have studied the effects of creatine, large-scale, well controlled studies are lacking. Available results observed in highly trained atheletes cannot necessarily be extrapolated to the general public. Little information exists on the short-term or long-term safety of creatine and evidence of adequate quality control of the commercially marketed creatine is lacking and adequate specifications for food grade materials should be developed.

Although no important adverse effects have been reported in the efficacy trials, such evidence is insufficient to provide reassurance about the safety of creatine supplentation involving high loading doses; there are doubts about the safety in relation to kidney function; studies on tissues in which creatine is known to concentrate are lacking; effects on endogenous creatine synthesis upon cessation of supplementation are also not well studied. For these reasons the Committee considers that high loading doses should be avoided. Consumption of lower doses up to 3g/day are similar to the daily turnover rate of about 2g/day and are unlikely to pose any risk.

Future studies should evaluate short- and long-term effects of **** creatine on renal and hepatic systems as well as those organs where creatine plays a metabolic role. Such studies should include people who are not highly trained."

Ump,

I am not for or against Creatine. It works great for some and does nothing for others. Personally, it never did much for me.

But I wanted to present some research on creatine as there was a lot of "gym science" being thrown around.

It's up to everyone individually if they choose to use creatine, but I would like to point out there is no reason to use high doses of creatine to "load" with. That was a marketing angle (and a rather good one) used by EAS when they first introduced creatine.

Your blood stream can only hold so much creatine and after about two weeks of using creatine blood levels are the same if you loaded or not.

Most scientists agree creatine is safe in the 3-5 gram/day range.

I think that most people don't recommend creatine or other supplements to anyone under 18 for a few reasons:

1-It's not their child.

2-Most kids will grow and get stronger thru a proper training program and proper nutrition without the aid of supplements.

3-Because of #2, kids don't need to spend their money on expensive supplements.

3-Kids tend not to follow proper instructions when consuming supplements--they may tend to take more than the necessary dosage recommended.

4-Innocent supplementation can lead to more serious and dangerous types of supplementation.

5-Extreme care should be taken to research and find reputable supplement companies and products.