Dick Mills, Pitching.com

So is the National Pitching Association..with Tom House.
Paul N Y M A N works with Wolforth...on and on. What are you trying to accomplish? How old are you and what have you done up until now? Many out there will gladly accept funding from you and others. You may not need to do anything more than spend a few dollars on some training equipment..or perhaps a reputable local coach..or even attend a couple of clinics put on by a reputable university. I mean it is your money and all...but what you want to accomplish and how far you are from it is really the question..Mills will let you buy a ticket and fly out to his farm and work with you personally, if you have the money. His orientation at this point is momentum pitching and isn't all together too far from many of the guru's in that. He is against what he terms "useless drills" such as the "towel drill" (Which he has much venom against) and isn't really big on long toss either (Thinks it isn't pitching specific). My opinion is that any program can be assistive if you throw whole hearted application into it..if you don't, you've got expensive books and multi-media sitting on the shelf..most guru's can be very assistive if they train you personally..(Most don't have the money for that). But it all depends on what you want and your personal need. If you are say 16-18 and throwing mid-80's..my opinion is it would likely be more helpful to have a local coach train with you (And cost comparable to the full out programs offered by the gurus) to make your delivery as efficient as possible, while working very intently on conditioning and grades (Could also benefit you by getting contacts and other pitching information..guru's don't really offer that benefit).

Search this site for all things about mills. You will get an eye full.
Also I would think there are tapes etc on ebay.

Run Forest run....

Thanks jdfromfla. By the way I am a 6 foot 175 pound right handed sophmore currently throwing mid 70's with sub par control. But I think I will get more out of the dvds and if I feel like it is helping me I will pursue further instruction from mr. Mills or a locale instructor, which is more expensive.

Well work on consistant repeatable mechanics with whatever you do and you'll improve that control you seem not to happy with. Mills will get you throwing harder..I want you throwing smarter..do you condition? When and how? If you are going to follow the stuff he promotes I ask you to look in to a pitching specific conditioning program..this is the perfect time of year for you to really work on it and you are in the right school spot. Size wise you are in a decent situation..The momentum pitching is something that can be tough on your body so it's important to have yourself ready to support throwing for max potential. Using long toss for arm conditioning purposes ironically may be a big help to be able to deal with the methods he promotes even though he doesn't like it.

Kingjamessp, I believe the consensus on HSBBW about Mills is not what you want to hear.

Long-toss. If you want to improve velocity, consistency of your mechanics.. long-toss. Throwing for distance, on a regular basis, promotes a consistent arm slot, arm speed, and endurance. I know it worked wonders for my son.

I own a gym. Some folks don't join the gym and opt for magic in a bottle. Weight loss the easy way. There is no easy way. To throw harder, you must throw always.

I read a lot of Mills' stuff maybe 7-8 years ago when he was marketing through his free newsletters and also touting his son's great success as proof positive of his theories.

I think you can learn some from him, but you can't take everything he says as gospel. Some here are prepared to reject everything he says, though, and that's not right either.

In particular, Mills completely convinced me that working on pushing off the rubber was wrong, and that mastering an explosive hip/trunk turn was the key to both building velocity and command. I also learned a lot about proper arm action from reading Mills' stuff.

But I never bought the whole Mills program. For one thing, the man's basic concepts would fit into a single magazine article, if only he would submit himself to an editor. Instead, he repeats himself so often and then goes off on tangents and what have you so much, that you really do need a highlighter pen to go through what he writes to get out the few nuggets worth remembering. The rest could hit the cutting room floor.

I also think it's wrong to suggest that there is only one way to succeed in baseball, whether we're talking about hitting, pitching, or whatever. Case in point: How many would have taught a young Tim Lincecum to throw the way he does? Maybe NOW we would, but be honest, who would've taught that throwing motion to their sons 10 years ago?

Time has also shown that no single philosophy has all the answers. Mills' son was a lefty whose velocity got into the mid-90's at times. My understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) is that he struggled in the minors and ultimately fell victim to recurring injuries. Baseball can be a cruel mistress. The last time I read anything by Mills, all the stuff about his son was no longer part of the spiel.

If he's now arguing against long toss, that's a development since the days when I read his stuff. And based on my experience, abandoning long toss is very bad advice.

quote:

Time has also shown that no single philosophy has all the answers

I wish everyone would remember this..it would reduce arguement and possibly provide for constructive conversation...A guy can hope right
King old boy I hope you've done your due diligence in research..If you are convinced..well like I said it's your money spend it as you would..but if you're not completely sure you've got many reasons so far to look just a bit deeper. One week or even one day won't make much difference now would it?

Kingjames -- You have received a lot of good feedback from some people who have long histories of offering good advice in this forum.

Let me offer you something to think about before making a final decision. My son is a 6'-0", 185 lb, 15-yr old Soph, LHP, throwing in the Mid 70's, with exceptional command, and 3 pitches he throws for strikes.

When my son was 11, we were introduced to the National Pitching Association (http://www.nationalpitching.net) thru a collegaite coach, and pitching instructor my son was working with. The NPA has the best, researched based, training materials I have ever found.

My son was an average LL pitcher at age 11. Well ... He just wrapped up his fall season, pitching in an 18U "Varsity" league, where he became a go-to guy on the pitching staff. He'll tell you that he owes his development to Coach House, Coach Bundrick, and the NPA.

The NPA online course is terrific -- my son was a beta-tester -- and it's only $25. You might want to consider starting there, then look into their DVD's and Books.

Best wishes to you no matter what direction you choose to go.

There's a lot to like about the Tom House approach, too.

But don't just swallow it all without weighing it first. Remember, he's the guy who thought Mark Prior had perfect mechanics and would never break down.

Midlo I don't think House said that about anyone. Never break down would be foolish. Mark has great mechanics. That would never guarentee no injury.

Actually Mark Prior is an example Dick Mills uses, he has a short stride and uses scapula loading as well as the towel drill. Im not sure what scapula loading is, no need to explain it, but dick says it's really bad and has reasons for it http://pitching.com/article/mark-priors-shoulder-surger...ap-loading-ruin-his/
once again he doesnt just say its bad he gives reasons why which alot of pitching coaches dont, some do though like tom house.

King..here is a link to a thread that we discussed this thouroughly in it I actually researched Mark Priors actual injuries (On MLB.com) and well believe Dick or your lying eyes..his injuries had nothing to do with mechanics...towel drills, long toss..communist infiltrators...moon doggie...George Bush...just a collision with a guy on the basepaths and his elbow with a line drive.

http://hsbaseballweb.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1491034941/m/2021026892/p/4

But to the point..please do consider what I recommended if you follow Mills.. Arm health is so important and the way he approaches it, I would make sure you are ready for it.

take advice and consult actual coaches. right now two great pitching coaches on the college level are fred corral at tennesee and vanderbilts pitching coach.
these "gurus" dont have a job in baseball. if they were really gurus i think some college or pro club would be paying them pretty good for their services.
they have "new innovative ideas" because for the most part they are salesman and have to make their product different.
i do like steven ellis. check out his website. he's got a couple of reasonable priced books that are in sync with pro/college teachings. he'll answer questions on this forum and his forum without you having to pay. he has very helpful blogs on his website. he does stuff the "gurus" wont without big bucks.

Just to clarify, Tom House is currently the pitching coach for USC. And I know for a fact that House worked with both Randy Johnson and Cole Hamels within the last year. Don't think I'd call him a "guru" without a job in baseball.

Also, Vanderbilt's coach seems to follow at least some of House's teachings as I saw a video clip of him running a pitcher through the towel drill and his instruction matched very closely what House teaches including even some of the same terminology.

quote:

i do like steven ellis. check out his website. he's got a couple of reasonable priced books that are in sync with pro/college teachings. he'll answer questions on this forum and his forum without you having to pay. he has very helpful blogs on his website. he does stuff the "gurus" wont without big bucks.

me too but I'm an administrator so I don't count...Roger is too..Steve (Raiderbb) we haven't talked since we talked about an off season throwing program..how'd it work out for ya and how did your team do this last season?

the last 2 years ive coached 3 sports so i've not gotten on here as much as i like. i'm going to try to do better.
ive used the basic same program the last 6 years. i tinker with it here and there but the basics reamin the same. its always been good for us. no sore arms, complete games, etc. we went through a couple of years down cycle talent wise, but last year we used 2 freshman as starters and they get better everyday. throw harder everyday. theres another pitcher in their grade that has a chance to be pretty good too. we've also got a couple of older guys that can throw a little bit. i think our guys definitely get better in our offseason program.
ive got tom house and dick mills stuff right beside me on my bookshelf. ive actually got more from mills than house(he writes and talks above my head - but mills changes to remain a "rebel" - sales?). my point is that id rather talk to the college guys at clinics. derek johnson and fred corral are at our coaches clinic every year and great!!!! you can get tennesseee's entire weight/agility/conditioning/throwing program for about the cost it takes coach corral to print it. same with coach shoenerock(spelling?) at memphis. if you want to talk detail - talk to him. you dont have to pay outrageous amounts to get expert advice. id rather pay a little for a book or cd from these guys to help supplement their incomes because they are going to be helpful anyway - they actually coach for a living. steven ellis fits there too.
what is dick mills charging now for his program?

the answer:
fred corral - all dvds plus entire off season - in season throwing program, agility program, nutrition, conditioning, pitch calling, bullpen scripts, etc. etc. - under $50
daren shoenerock - university of memphis - no dvds but same written info - under $20 - ex big league pitching coach - ive called him nad coach corral about several things - email or fax it right to me.
the stuff ive gotten from tom house has been $50 or less.
steven ellis - ive bought his ebook and tuff cuff book - great stuff. under $100. plus his blogs/message board free.
dick mills - just for his dvds - over $400.

It's ironic that I've had similar experience with college coaches down here..when the rubber hits the road, they personally touch way more than the guru's generally (I mean face to face personal).
I don't really consider House a guru (Steven Ellis either), he's an instructor in the classic sense (With a very expanded market..Steven I consider an educator). I'd also say that the college coach has to seed his program so it's in his best interest to get the widest cross-section trained up right (Sure a guru needs the next purchase...but the wise coach builds his team year over year...well to back away slightly..yes so does a guru..I guess I'm talking about a direct and personal responsibility to the school and community). Maybe it's the instant feedback they can see, or the personal gratification from the students/potential students..

Midlo Dad, I researched Dick Mills also back about 7yrs ago and you are right about the redundancy in his newsletters.

However, I must add my experience with Dick Mill's tapes, etc. to balance out this decision for kingjames.

When Younggun was about 11yrs old and wanted to pitch I knew that I nor his current LL coaches could/would teach him HOW to pitch. That is when I got online and begin researching the various Pitching lessons available that the time (2001). After reading/studying all I could, I opted to purchase the tapes/series from Dick Mills. Younggun and I really enjoyed how Dick basic pitching mechanics, drills, etc. (for a non-pitching Dad and an 11yr old boy at the time).

Younggun learned the crucial things about balance, arm slot, release, stride, landing points, glove tuck, etc. that he used for the years playing afterward. Yes, along the way he was fortunate to pick up other valuable pointers from ex-MLB pro's, etc. that helped but he would be the first to tell you he learned basic mechanics from Dick. I haven't personally kept up with Dick and his pitching advise for many years now. I haven't a clue what he teaches now. I for one would argue about not doing some kind of long toss. Younggun said his arm has never felt stronger after this fall.

So, Kingjames I can't sit here and tell you TO or NOT to buy Dick Mill's video series due to he may possibly have changed some of his theories but if you aren't confident with your mechanics and need something to help now and down the road then he just might be what you need. An instructor is temporary (to a degree, i.e. money, time, etc) but the DVD's are forever, basically.

Someone mentioned about getting some Instructor help. At your age, that may also be a valid suggestion if you already know HOW to pitch and need to fine-tune your mechanics, etc.

Younggun is now playing as a freshman at a NAIA school and will be a pitcher for them. Dick Mills I would have to say and give credit to is the reason he received a scholarship to play college baseball, IMO.

P.S. Midlo, that is terrible to hear about Dick's son. I can't remember his name but you could see the pride in his Dad's eyes whenever he mentioned him on the tapes. I wonder if he is/has been trying to make a come back...???

quote:

Originally posted by Kingjamesp:
Actually Mark Prior is an example Dick Mills uses, he has a short stride and uses scapula loading as well as the towel drill. Im not sure what scapula loading is, no need to explain it, but dick says it's really bad and has reasons for it...

once again he doesnt just say its bad he gives reasons why which alot of pitching coaches dont, some do though like tom house.

Kingjamesp,

Don't let the scare tactics of any internet "guru" scare you away from learning and understanding about different things. There is no "one size fits all" when it comes to pitching (or hitting) mechanics and to dismiss something without doing the research yourself to understand it would be a BIG mistake on your part in my opinion.

I agree with Flipp. "One size fits all" is not the way to approach it.

We "bit the Mills bullet" a few years ago, more out of curiousity that anything else. And, long-story-short, our package now sits in my attic. However, I will say that there were a few things that we found helpful or useful. He does do a fairly good job of explaining the importance of balance, and has a few pretty good drills that help. Also, one of the videos was on how to read hitters. However, we actually used this video for our catchers to teach them the basics of reading hitters, and not our pitchers. IMO, I found it all to be kind of a "pitcher in a box" system, which did not allow much individuality in the delivery. I think it works well for beginners, because of it's effectiveness in explaining basic balance techniques. In our case, we found it to be something that you implement a few ideas, rather than rely on solely. I also found it to be very "timing critical". If all timing aspects of the upper body, lower body, hand break,etc. are not perfect, I think it lends itself to potential injury.

In the end, I don't think that you would learn anything different that any semi-knowlegable instructor would be able to teach...and at a much lower cost.

..............GO TITANS!

quote:

..............GO TITANS!

Gee Cap..that was random..are you prone to those sort of outbursts? Turets like exclamations about your favorite teams?

JDFROMFLA-


Mills, schmills...what a dead subject. But when my pal from TN chimed in, I couldn't resist

I suspected as much..
they beat our Jags like a pinyata at a hyper-active kids b-day party..
We can always bring up Mike Marshall..I think he's waiting tables on the "Red-neck Riveara" these days..

jdfronfla-

I like your style

cap_n!!!!!! I knew you were still alive. Hahaha!

The Titans are having a pretty good season. It makes Brandon happy but I'm more of a Browns fan. The Brady Quinn era has offically begun... woohoo!!!!

FYI... I've got a clip to show you and I think you'll like what you see.

Flipp,

It's going to be a little difficult for me to get to one of Brandon's games now that you've moved from MN to TN, so you'll need to send me a link to that clip, too!


Julie

Hi Julie! You've got a PM.

Most of the scouts here in So Cal that I've talked with are not too high on the teachings of Tom House.

There is not a one size fits all stlyle around.

Has anyone heard of Dr. Marshall? Some people swear by his teaching on mecanics.

quote:

Originally posted by jdfromfla:
We can always bring up Mike Marshall..I think he's waiting tables on the "Red-neck Riveara" these days..

wvmtner:

According to JD he is a waiter now.

BOF

Yeah, I missed that post. I checked out what he taught and it sure looked strange to me but like I said, some people swear by it.

I hope he does well as a waiter

I bought into the Dick Mills thing. Long time ago, even bought the special "Make the Pitch" glove which my son used in his Sr. year of HS!

Was he the ultimate? Probably not. Was he the best? Probably not. Did he provide the totally ignorant a starting place? You betcha!

Give the guy credit for what he did. Not the ultimate pitching "answer", but you know what? Us dumbies that did not know ANYTHING gained a lot from one of the earliest mass-providers.

My kid was 12-13 when we "found" Dick Mills, son is in the MLB at 25years old(20th round selection). I guess we may have learned even a little more(eventually) than Dick Mills taught his own son who was selected in the first round and ot in MLB.

"I hope he does well as a waiter"

I understand there is a conspiracy of owners to keep him from placing wait staff trainees amongst the restraunts..apparently he says he's going to keep everyone from getting sore feet and he feels others don't know how wait staff delivers food...Quite the controversy amongst calimari presenters I hear...

Mills gets knocked around now because most people who stayed in the "trenches" long enough were able to understand that his system was limiting the throwers maximum velocity ability..... even his own son. Case in point is the video featuring his son. The on tape instruction did not follow the on tape performance. I called Mills to the mat on this, and his only professional email response to me was that "a well respected coach who reviewed the tape was not so much interested in what Ryan was doing, but rather in what I (Mills) was saying." Those who say that his system can be used as a starting point haven't a real understanding of what it takes for the human body to make change. So if you start your young player out incorrectly (not understanding what it takes to throw hard) then your young player is at a huge disadvantage due to the correction process...... the older the set mechanics are, the longer the correction process takes.

............. then again, it's hard to convince anyone of this if you aren't an ex pro instructor.

quote:

Originally posted by wvmtner:
Has anyone heard of Dr. Marshall? Some people swear by his teaching on mecanics.

What's really sad about all of this Marshall stuff is the amount of wasted time these people are putting their kids through teaching them to throw like this.



Months if not years of wasted time they will never get back. Especially when they have to go back and try to FIX all of the ingrained (muscle memory) inefficiencies after they realize their kids or players have not reached their throwing potential.

Just for the record, I don't believe in Dr. Marshalls' teachings.

I too have Mr. Mills "stuff" and thought I gave it some serious consideration. I didn't benefit greatly from it. I did get a different perspective and so somethings to think about. BTW, I have one of his old versions and in that version, his son is doing the towel drill. How ironic! I also have Tom House's "stuff." I've used it more than Mills. I've gone to listen to a number of college coaches and have always found some good stuff. I believe that pitching coaches at any level have a serious responsibility to continue to learn. The consequence of making poor choices here is that you could lead to the injury of a player. JMHO!