Unfortunately not. The top 20 programs would probably like it but the majority of d1 programs just have nothing to gain. Sure it improves the quality of training but it also helps your opponent so in the end it only means more costs. Also the programs still find enough volunteers who will do it for a couple years because of the dream to make a living in baseball. I mean there is a reason why entry level stats/data guys in mlb make much less than in the general industry, there are simply many guys who would work for free to be in baseball.

Of course that is bad  for many reasons. One of them is that only well off people can afford this. If you are a stat guy trained in harvard from a good family they might tell you "sure you can work in mlb for 3-4 years before starting your real career for reel money" while other people can't afford that especially if they have family (sure there might be an occasional guy doing it living in a trailer, I think Matt lisle was like that).

I would hope they would but I don't think they will because the smaller conferences will not vote for it.  I also don't see why they have to attach other things to it.   There are those who have said that if they go to a third paid coach then they will push harder for more scholarships so if they vote against the first there will not be a push for the second.  It seems interesting that there is so much confusion as to whether the ACC voted no or yes.  How can that be?

Maybe it's time to break D1 baseball into 2 tiers, kind of like football did.  There is such a disparity between the top 100 and the bottom 100 as it is - talent, facilities, financial resources, etc.  Does it make sense to lump them into the same division? We're at a point where the bottom 200 is holding back progress for the top 100 teams, maybe it's time to move on and address this in a more structural way.

Smitty28 posted:

Maybe it's time to break D1 baseball into 2 tiers, kind of like football did.  There is such a disparity between the top 100 and the bottom 100 as it is - talent, facilities, financial resources, etc.  Does it make sense to lump them into the same division? We're at a point where the bottom 200 is holding back progress for the top 100 teams, maybe it's time to move on and address this in a more structural way.

This is an interesting idea. 

57special posted:

Until you see the stands filled with someone other than family members, friends, and GF's then I don't see it. College BB simply doesn't make money.

I understand this across the board but not when you talk P5 schools.  There are many P5 schools that are making big time money.  They should not be penalized because everyone is not making money.

Smitty28 posted:

Maybe it's time to break D1 baseball into 2 tiers, kind of like football did.  There is such a disparity between the top 100 and the bottom 100 as it is - talent, facilities, financial resources, etc.  Does it make sense to lump them into the same division? We're at a point where the bottom 200 is holding back progress for the top 100 teams, maybe it's time to move on and address this in a more structural way.

I've been saying this for awhile now.  I'd even go three tiers.  Unfortunately, it ain't likely to happen anytime soon.  Kids/PARENTS like saying they/their kid play(s) "D1 Baseball."  Second and third tier programs also like to bill themselves as D1 Programs.   In their eyes, adding more tiers would cheapen that.

PitchingFan posted:
57special posted:

Until you see the stands filled with someone other than family members, friends, and GF's then I don't see it. College BB simply doesn't make money.

I understand this across the board but not when you talk P5 schools.  There are many P5 schools that are making big time money.  They should not be penalized because everyone is not making money.

I don't think ANY programs are making "big time money" off of baseball.  Accurate information is hard to come by, but from what I've heard over the years I doubt that more than a handful even break even.

 

MTH posted:
PitchingFan posted:
57special posted:

Until you see the stands filled with someone other than family members, friends, and GF's then I don't see it. College BB simply doesn't make money.

I understand this across the board but not when you talk P5 schools.  There are many P5 schools that are making big time money.  They should not be penalized because everyone is not making money.

I don't think ANY programs are making "big time money" off of baseball.  Accurate information is hard to come by, but from what I've heard over the years I doubt that more than a handful even break even.

 

The SEC programs would not be paying large HC salaries if those programs weren’t making money 

adbono posted:
MTH posted:
PitchingFan posted:
57special posted:

Until you see the stands filled with someone other than family members, friends, and GF's then I don't see it. College BB simply doesn't make money.

I understand this across the board but not when you talk P5 schools.  There are many P5 schools that are making big time money.  They should not be penalized because everyone is not making money.

I don't think ANY programs are making "big time money" off of baseball.  Accurate information is hard to come by, but from what I've heard over the years I doubt that more than a handful even break even.

 

The SEC programs would not be paying large HC salaries if those programs weren’t making money 

I wonder how much value is assigned to having a successful P5 program and, thus, increasing overall school image and desirability for students to attend, therefore doling out tuition money that may otherwise go to a different university or college?  That healthy overall tuition bottom line certainly isn't reflected in the turnstile numbers at ballgames but...

On the other end of the spectrum, I know for certain that many/most smaller schools promote sports programs so that student athletes can participate in college sports and, thus, will select their school for spending those tuition $$s.  This one is probably a bit more realistic to measure.  I often talk to schools who have 40% of their student body on school sports rosters.

Same would be true of Big 12 conference, surely...From 2016 on, Auggie Garrido set the tone for $!M + coaches...As an aside, Huston Street just accepted Student Asst job...so look for him to take over within 5 yrs or so...

I'd imagine that Tex Tech& TCU  are over the $1M mark...

Those baseball programs are making money!

A 3rd paid assistant would be roughly the cost of another low to mid-level full time position at the school.  This isn't a high paying position, by any means.  So, when you look at the "burden" to a school to add another head count, it just isn't that large, IMO.

LeftyDadP9 posted:

A 3rd paid assistant would be roughly the cost of another low to mid-level full time position at the school.  This isn't a high paying position, by any means.  So, when you look at the "burden" to a school to add another head count, it just isn't that large, IMO.

Many of bigger D1 & D2 programs are already finding ways to pay their 3rd Asst by creating a title other than Asst Coach - like Director of Player Development, etc. 

adbono posted:
LeftyDadP9 posted:

A 3rd paid assistant would be roughly the cost of another low to mid-level full time position at the school.  This isn't a high paying position, by any means.  So, when you look at the "burden" to a school to add another head count, it just isn't that large, IMO.

Many of bigger D1 & D2 programs are already finding ways to pay their 3rd Asst by creating a title other than Asst Coach - like Director of Player Development, etc. 

Utah was hit with an NCAA violation last year for doing just this.

Smitty28 posted:

Maybe it's time to break D1 baseball into 2 tiers, kind of like football did.  There is such a disparity between the top 100 and the bottom 100 as it is - talent, facilities, financial resources, etc.  Does it make sense to lump them into the same division? We're at a point where the bottom 200 is holding back progress for the top 100 teams, maybe it's time to move on and address this in a more structural way.

This is no different then the player issues. Everyone, including myself, thinks 11.7 scholarships sucks...but it is a supply and demand issue. As soon as the schools can't field a team properly they will change the totals. Right now there are way more players wanting the spots then spots needed. 

Asst. Coaches are no different. There are way more interested candidates then spots needed. Here is an idea, stop working for free. Get a real job, open an academy, give group lessons...tell State U that you can't afford to work for free. 

This is simply a case of supply and demand. It is out of whack and until it gets balanced you will only see things remain the same. JMO but I think it is correct. 

As far as making big money.....let's assume 6,000 people per game x $12/ticket x 35 home games/year.  That's $2,500,000 year in ticket revenue.  Figure $5/person/game in concession profits that adds another million, so that's $3.5 mil in revenue.  Sure, there are no more than a dozen teams doing these numbers regularly, but that's pretty good money when you're only giving out 11.7 scholarships.   For schools like that, paying a third coach $50k isn't going to break them

Smitty28 posted:
adbono posted:
LeftyDadP9 posted:

A 3rd paid assistant would be roughly the cost of another low to mid-level full time position at the school.  This isn't a high paying position, by any means.  So, when you look at the "burden" to a school to add another head count, it just isn't that large, IMO.

Many of bigger D1 & D2 programs are already finding ways to pay their 3rd Asst by creating a title other than Asst Coach - like Director of Player Development, etc. 

Utah was hit with an NCAA violation last year for doing just this.

Only in Utah can you have more wives than Asst Coaches. 

MTH posted:

"The NCAA estimates that less than 10 percent of baseball programs nationally turn a profit, said Ron Prettyman, managing director of championships and alliances who oversees baseball. The number is probably closer to 5 percent, Prettyman said."  

https://www.theadvocate.com/ba...99-c709d5eb08c1.html 

Believe what you want. 

There are 299 D1 baseball programs. 10% would be 29 programs. There are 14 programs in SEC alone and hard to imagine they aren’t all turning a profit. If you have never attended an SEC baseball game you have to see it to believe it.  I haven’t read the article but logic would say that 10% is believable. 

You need to read the article.  They have FL, Miss. St., AL, TN, AUB, KY all losing money.  Having watched a lot of Florida games on TV, I have no trouble believing they lose lots of money.  NOBODY GOES TO THE GAMES.  A fact that Kevin O'Sullivan has lamented on numerous occasions.  Haven't been to SEC games at GA and Auburn, but I have been to both for regionals.  Having seen their stadiums and support, they don't surprise me either.  Miss. St. does surprise me, given their tradition.  SC surprises me a little, but that's probably due to their overhead and the fickle nature of their fanbase.  KY and TN don't surprise me at all.  Neither is exactly a storied program.  

I've been to almost all ACC stadiums, and if Clemson and UVA are losing money, everybody's losing money.  You would think that UNC might do well, but their attendance is pretty sad.  Students don't go at all.  Mike Fox has complained about this many times over the years.   The only ACC stadium that I have not been to that might break even is FSU.  No one else is close.  

I suspect the 5% figure is probably closer to accurate, and may even be high.  But, assuming 10% is accurate, that's still only 30 teams out of 300.  How many of those 270 are going to pump another 50K, or even 15K, into a losing program?  

I'd be willing to bet that the second "paid" assistant at a fair number of those 270 is currently unfunded.  I know of several positions at some of those schools that pay $15,000 /yr or less.

Bottom line, if this passes the rich get richer.  And by the rich I'm talking about MAYBE the top 30-50 programs in the country.  

 

old_school posted:
Smitty28 posted:

Maybe it's time to break D1 baseball into 2 tiers, kind of like football did.  There is such a disparity between the top 100 and the bottom 100 as it is - talent, facilities, financial resources, etc.  Does it make sense to lump them into the same division? We're at a point where the bottom 200 is holding back progress for the top 100 teams, maybe it's time to move on and address this in a more structural way.

This is no different then the player issues. Everyone, including myself, thinks 11.7 scholarships sucks...but it is a supply and demand issue. As soon as the schools can't field a team properly they will change the totals. Right now there are way more players wanting the spots then spots needed. 

Asst. Coaches are no different. There are way more interested candidates then spots needed. Here is an idea, stop working for free. Get a real job, open an academy, give group lessons...tell State U that you can't afford to work for free. 

This is simply a case of supply and demand. It is out of whack and until it gets balanced you will only see things remain the same. JMO but I think it is correct. 

Unfortunately, "stop working for free" isn't a real option for most who have the goal of coaching in college.  To expand on your statement that it is no different than the player issues, it is even more like MiLB player issues.  Unless you are a 1%er with serious name cache, you will have to pay your dues and toil in the minors (be a volunteer coach or low pay at low level schools), paid very little in a war of attrition.  Maybe you can stick it out and make it to a reasonable salary at some point but the numbers of supply and demand are definitely not on your side.  Step off the hamster wheel and you likely give up your place in line for good.  Meanwhile, it can be exciting to climb the ranks and experience different programs.  Just figuring out how to eat, pay rent and take a girl out once in a while can be a bit of a thorny issue   The right situations actually can have some pretty nice perks along with the challenges, though.

You can detour to academies but ya still gotta come back to the wheel, only now you've had a taste for burger and gotta go back to ramen.  

Many of these guys are balancing other jobs to pay the bills and/or trying to complete masters programs so they will meet qualifications when that HC position finally comes (or just to qualify themselves for grad assistant status.)

Those who do not have Assistant Coach in their title cannot coach.   They can do administrative duties but cannot be coaching in any form or fashion.  I know they push the point but this is pretty clear in the rules.  This makes it tough when the bigger programs have 45 players in the fall and only three guys trying to coach them.  That is worse than most high school teams.  I only had 27 players and had 3 full-time coaches and four my last year.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

As far as making big money.....let's assume 6,000 people per game x $12/ticket x 35 home games/year.  That's $2,500,000 year in ticket revenue.  Figure $5/person/game in concession profits that adds another million, so that's $3.5 mil in revenue.  Sure, there are no more than a dozen teams doing these numbers regularly, but that's pretty good money when you're only giving out 11.7 scholarships.   For schools like that, paying a third coach $50k isn't going to break them

I'm good with these numbers as a starting point for revenue for the successful bigger schools.  But you haven't even begun to touch on the costs.  Those 11.7 scholly's, covering tuition plus room & board - $700K?.  If they have 35 home games, they also have 35 road games.  How much does it cost to put a full travel squad (28?) on a bus or plane for a weekend, lodging and food, x a dozen trips or so per season?  Don't forget, they get meal money for home games too.  That stadium that holds a good size crowd needs constant maintenance, power, security, safety, ticket sales, etc.  Someone has to man and sell those concessions and there are costs associated with the goods as well.  Multiple full sets of uni's and gear for all rostered players and coaches, as well as several sets of practice gear.  Throw in athletic trainers, S&C guy, administration, promotion, logistics/operations, recruiting travel, conference travel and representation, conference fees, etc., HC and first paid coach salaries, etc.  And then there is insurance... yikes.

Sure, good brand sponsorships can cover some of these but it ain't like football.  Lets look at your 6K attendance... You think you'll get the same 6K to show up for your non-conference mid-week blowout opponent?  And how many tix are given for free to school donors, sponsors, friends and family, student body, etc?  Heck, it might be half of the attendance! 

I can't quickly assign precise costs to all of this and I know parts of this gets absorbed by bigger university departments, but I could sure imagine that gate and concession revenue disappearing in a hurry.  

Facalities and their maintenance also costs a ton. Field needs to be maintained and then you have cages, weight rooms and sometimes even full indoor facilities plus more and more tech like rapsodo or hittrax. And of course small stuff like training balls, tees, screens and so on.

cabbagedad posted:
Buckeye 2015 posted:

As far as making big money.....let's assume 6,000 people per game x $12/ticket x 35 home games/year.  That's $2,500,000 year in ticket revenue.  Figure $5/person/game in concession profits that adds another million, so that's $3.5 mil in revenue.  Sure, there are no more than a dozen teams doing these numbers regularly, but that's pretty good money when you're only giving out 11.7 scholarships.   For schools like that, paying a third coach $50k isn't going to break them

I'm good with these numbers as a starting point for revenue for the successful bigger schools.  But you haven't even begun to touch on the costs.  Those 11.7 scholly's, covering tuition plus room & board - $700K?.  If they have 35 home games, they also have 35 road games.  How much does it cost to put a full travel squad (28?) on a bus or plane for a weekend, lodging and food, x a dozen trips or so per season?  Don't forget, they get meal money for home games too.  That stadium that holds a good size crowd needs constant maintenance, power, security, safety, ticket sales, etc.  Someone has to man and sell those concessions and there are costs associated with the goods as well.  Multiple full sets of uni's and gear for all rostered players and coaches, as well as several sets of practice gear.  Throw in athletic trainers, S&C guy, administration, promotion, logistics/operations, recruiting travel, conference travel and representation, conference fees, etc., HC and first paid coach salaries, etc.  And then there is insurance... yikes.

Sure, good brand sponsorships can cover some of these but it ain't like football.  Lets look at your 6K attendance... You think you'll get the same 6K to show up for your non-conference mid-week blowout opponent?  And how many tix are given for free to school donors, sponsors, friends and family, student body, etc?  Heck, it might be half of the attendance! 

I can't quickly assign precise costs to all of this and I know parts of this gets absorbed by bigger university departments, but I could sure imagine that gate and concession revenue disappearing in a hurry.  

The Equity in Athletics Disclosure Act requires co-educational institutions of postsecondary education that participate in a Title IV, federal student financial assistance program, and have an intercollegiate athletic program, to prepare an annual report to the Department of Education on athletic participation, staffing, and revenues and expenses, by men's and women's teams. The Department will use this information in preparing its required report to the Congress on gender equity in intercollegiate athletics.

Operating (Game Day) Expenses

All expenses an institution incurs attributable to home, away, and neutral-site intercollegiate athletic contests (commonly known as game-day expenses), for (A) Lodging, meals, transportation, uniforms, and equipment for coaches, team members, support staff (including, but not limited to team managers and trainers), and others; and (B) Officials

Expenses

All expenses attributable to intercollegiate athletic activities. This includes appearance guarantees and options, athletically related student aid, contract services, equipment, fundraising activities, operating expenses, promotional activities, recruiting expenses, salaries and benefits, supplies, travel, and any other expenses attributable to intercollegiate athletic activities.

Below is are the EADA 2018 Statistics for LSU

 

LSU 2018 Equity In Athletics

 

LSU 2018 Expense by Sports

 

LSU 2018 Expense by Sports

 

LSU Baseball Financials for the last 10 yrs.  Blue line is Revenue, Orange line is Expenses, Red line is Operating Expenses.

Although schools provide salaries, which is provided in aggregate for the entire athletic department.

 

LSU Baseball Budget 10 yrs

 

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I just checked an SEC school I'm pretty familiar with.  If this issue is a function of revenue generation, how do we explain women's tennis with 8 team members that has a head coach, an assistant, and a volunteer assistant.  Men's tennis has 11 and also is led by a HC, Asst, Volunteer.  How about volleyball - 17 on the roster.  Head coach, associate head coach, assistant coach, volunteer assistant.  I believe womens tennis and volleyball are headcount sports, so scholarships are all full rides.  I wouldn't know enough about their revenue vs. expenses, but it doesn't seem possible that it's better than baseball.

BTW, that same school has 44 in fall baseball practice right now.

Smitty28 posted:

Maybe it's time to break D1 baseball into 2 tiers, kind of like football did.  There is such a disparity between the top 100 and the bottom 100 as it is - talent, facilities, financial resources, etc.  Does it make sense to lump them into the same division? We're at a point where the bottom 200 is holding back progress for the top 100 teams, maybe it's time to move on and address this in a more structural way.

The reason for this split in football was all about money. There isn’t enough money in college baseball to make the same argument. 

Buckeye 2015 posted:

As far as making big money.....let's assume 6,000 people per game x $12/ticket x 35 home games/year.  That's $2,500,000 year in ticket revenue.  Figure $5/person/game in concession profits that adds another million, so that's $3.5 mil in revenue.  Sure, there are no more than a dozen teams doing these numbers regularly, but that's pretty good money when you're only giving out 11.7 scholarships.   For schools like that, paying a third coach $50k isn't going to break them

So the vote would be 287-12 against.

9and7dad posted:

I just checked an SEC school I'm pretty familiar with.  If this issue is a function of revenue generation, how do we explain women's tennis with 8 team members that has a head coach, an assistant, and a volunteer assistant.  Men's tennis has 11 and also is led by a HC, Asst, Volunteer.  How about volleyball - 17 on the roster.  Head coach, associate head coach, assistant coach, volunteer assistant.  I believe womens tennis and volleyball are headcount sports, so scholarships are all full rides.  I wouldn't know enough about their revenue vs. expenses, but it doesn't seem possible that it's better than baseball.

BTW, that same school has 44 in fall baseball practice right now.

NOT FAIR 😡

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