Does this figure seem accurate?

That figure seems accurate to me. If you look at stats on the collegiate athletic websites you will see very few pitchers in the hitting stats, even for low D1's.

With the time commitment involved for collegiate baseball, they often break the groups into pitchers and fielders for practice sessions. It is hard to make the time commitment to do both and they have recruited great hitters so typically the pitchers bats aren't needed.

There will be an exception to this on some college rosters but it will typically be just one pitcher and typically he would be a two-way player.

I don't have any stats, but from what I have personally seen 1.9% sounds about right. You see very few two way players in D1. I think I saw 3 or 4 in 35-40 games last year.

I think this is unfortunate for most 16 and 17 year old two way players. My son is a big RHP and 1B. He hits for power (led team in HR) and hits to the gaps. He batted over .500 for the season. Additionally, he is #1 in the pitching rotation. This summer, he was a pitcher only and that was a let down. Pitched well, but velocity didn't break through 86. Went to a college camp, entered both ways, and hit the smack out of the ball. His D1 scholarship is as a hitter first - and secondarily as a pitcher if he continues to develop.

In hindsight, I would never have put this particular kid as a pitcher only.

I don't have any real figures but by way of example a local player went to a D1 on Scholarship, they refused to allow him to hit. After his Soph year he transferred to a D3 that allowed him to hit and pitch, his Senior year he led the team in all offensive and pitching categories and he now holds many single season records in both categories.

In Florida I would say that figure is accurate for JUCO, D-2, and D-1.

If you are a 2 way player, better to market yourself as a position player, and let them find out that you can pitch too.

I have also seen players that were recruited as a two-way player for D1 but once they get on campus the two-way didn't pan out and they were either a pitcher or a fielder/hitter. Some coaches will tell you they will look at you as a two-way player during recruiting, and maybe they really will, but I would check their roster and stats for the past few years and see how many two-way players they have had in the past. That might be an indication as to their willingness to allow your son to do both.

At that age every player wants to hit. But most (almost all) aspiring pitchers must eventually face the facts that they are not going to hit in college. At some point most have to concentrate on one position or the other in order to maximize their chances to play college ball. Darn near every pitcher on college teams will also have been a star hitter in high school. But they aren't going to hit in college.

Sometimes you get forced into one position or another. Son wanted to continue to try to do both, but travel teams wanted him as a pitcher only. That may be fine when you're a junior, the handwriting may be on the wall by then. But it's hard when you're just a freshman or sophomore.

The problem for some kids is it is difficult to make the "right" choice, pitcher or position player. Trying to do both may hurt their chances. But making the wrong choice will do the same thing. Glad that dilemma is behind us.

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Originally posted by justakid:
I think this is unfortunate for most 16 and 17 year old two way players. My son is a big RHP and 1B. He hits for power (led team in HR) and hits to the gaps. He batted over .500 for the season. Additionally, he is #1 in the pitching rotation. This summer, he was a pitcher only and that was a let down. Pitched well, but velocity didn't break through 86. Went to a college camp, entered both ways, and hit the smack out of the ball. His D1 scholarship is as a hitter first - and secondarily as a pitcher if he continues to develop.

In hindsight, I would never have put this particular kid as a pitcher only.

Making the "Choice" assuming it is not made for you is a dilemma. The way we dealt with that was to look around and see that there were not too many sub 6' pitchers out there, and my son began this journey because he loved to hit.

So as a player that is 5'11" (hopefully one day reaching 6') we chose to go the position player route. He does get called upon to pitch now and again (more than we imagined), but like the fact that he gets to play every game as a position player.

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Originally posted by MTH:

Sometimes you get forced into one position or another. Son wanted to continue to try to do both, but travel teams wanted him as a pitcher only. That may be fine when you're a junior, the handwriting may be on the wall by then. But it's hard when you're just a freshman or sophomore.

It came even earlier for my son. He was a good hitter and played 1st base when not pitching. The local league coach who had top D-1 coaching experience called us into his office when my son was only in 7th grade. He said my son would have to adjust to only being a pitcher because that is where his future was at.
It seemed strange to me at the time because he was hitting so well for the team, but this coach said very few kids pitch and play a position in college. Needless to say he saw the writing on the wall before we did. My son couldn't tell if it meant he was a good pitcher or a bad hitter, but wanted to continue to do both. So he did until the 10th grade, then it was pitching only, with an occasional stint at 1st. He accepted it because the varsity had two kids ahead of him on 1st that knocked the cover off the ball.
Still it was a surprise to hear that at such a young age. Today he has no illusion about playing a position, and just focuses on pitching. The days of me throwing bp to him are over except for some fun.

Anyway, I'm sure it is even harder on kids who have great bats in their senior year, yet cannot play both at the higher level.
I know I'm going to sound old saying this, but things have certainly changed, because "in my day" it seemed like a lot more kids did both.
Heck as recently as the mid 90's I remember top pitchers doing both, with Tim Hudson being a good example. I guess today more and more kids are becoming specialized, and only spend time on one sport and one position. Still I never would have thought the numbers were so low today.

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I think this is unfortunate for most 16 and 17 year old two way players. My son is a big RHP and 1B. He hits for power (led team in HR) and hits to the gaps. He batted over .500 for the season. Additionally, he is #1 in the pitching rotation. This summer, he was a pitcher only and that was a let down. Pitched well, but velocity didn't break through 86. Went to a college camp, entered both ways, and hit the smack out of the ball. His D1 scholarship is as a hitter first - and secondarily as a pitcher if he continues to develop.

This comment does not surprise me; as programs become increasingly competitive so does the skill set required to compete.

My son was a P/1B his freshman year in HS. He pitched in hearly half the teams game and went 10-0. Yet when he got to Varsity workouts his sophomore year the coach tried him on the mound during a scrimage and then told him that he wanted him to focus on hitting. He never pitched again.

The reality was his HS was VERY competitive and for the most part run like a college program. The coaches anticipated where his skills lied and channeled him towards his area of greatest ability.

For most HS teams their is not the depth of skills and as such it is very common for 2-way players. Yet the reality is as they move up the "food chain" coaches will help shape what skills will be developed and where players fit.

To reinforce a couple of points here, think of it this way:

Over the course of a season, the best batters bat and the best pitchers pitch. Chances are, the best batters on a college roster have been focused on becoming the best batters they can possibly become for some time; while the best pitchers have focused on pitching.

By the time they've worked their way into college playing time, they're extremely capable at one or the other. While there have been and will continue to be notable exceptions, rare is the instance when a two-way player can compete effectively for playing time when his competitors in the clubhouse are so devoted to one or the other.

My son is a freshman in college at a mid level D1 trying to do both. He was recruited as a pitcher, but had a great senior year in HS as both, and they wanted to look at him as a 2-way. The coach has had 2-way players in the past, and it looks like he may get an earlier chance as a hitter/player, then as a pitcher. There is a lot of extra work involved.

I'd say from what I've seen the figure is pretty acurate.
Here is a question along the same lines and maybe some of you with son's who are pitchers can answer. If many parents are concerned with pitch counts and the health of their son's arms (which they all should be), how can a coach pitch the player one day and use him to his pitch count and then put him at SS or CF (examples) the next day? Shouldn't that be the day of rest? Doesn't that increase injury or over usage? Sometimes this happend during the second game of a double header.

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It came even earlier for my son. He was a good hitter and played 1st base when not pitching. The local league coach who had top D-1 coaching experience called us into his office when my son was only in 7th grade. He said my son would have to adjust to only being a pitcher because that is where his future was at.

I would run from people like this and not take their advice - at least at the youth levels. High school level and above and you might be forced to choose as has been already noted. Jiminy Crickets - professional scouts only get it right on first round draft choices who are at least 18 years old about 50% of the time. How in the heck can someone tell about 7th graders?

I remember when my son was 9, 10, 11, 12, etc. and having coaches telling me that he needed to be a second baseman because he would never have the "range" to be a high school shortstop. To say those types of comments ticked me off was an understatment. Of course, these coaches (Dad travel ball coaches) had son's who just happened to play shortstop None of these kids who were supposedly better never even played on the freshmen team let alone went on to be an all-state shortstop, D1 shortstop, and now professional shortstop.

I agree that at the high school level, college level, and pro level, kids may be forced to choose. It is up to the kid to choose until then however. When forced to choose, I suggest a kid picks which one he likes best and let the chips fall where they may as far as the future is concerned. I would never tell a kid to pick one over the other because his best position in the future would be one postion over the other. Baseball is a game of passion. I want my kids doing what they like to do best - not what someone else projects as what is best for them.

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Originally posted by Coach Merc:

Here is a question along the same lines and maybe some of you with son's who are pitchers can answer. If many parents are concerned with pitch counts and the health of their son's arms (which they all should be), how can a coach pitch the player one day and use him to his pitch count and then put him at SS or CF (examples) the next day? Shouldn't that be the day of rest? Doesn't that increase injury or over usage? Sometimes this happend during the second game of a double header.

Perfect example above (playing where you have a lot of throwing to do the day after one pitches) of why so many injuries occur to pitchers. There is a good reason why by the time a player gets to HS, if it looks like his future lies in pitching, he should just pitch, or play first base when not pitching or if he is a good hitter he can DH or EH the days he's not pitching (or the same day).

I would say the percentage seems right.

Prepster is pretty accurate in what he says, it is very tough to be a two way player at the college level, though there are exceptions.

I hope that coaches don't limit players to just pitching in the 7th grade. I too would run in the opposite direction if that happened to my player. Most become pitcher only guys when they begin going to tournies and showcases for recruiting.

An important thing to remember is that for most, you don't get to choose, the decision is often made for you by someone else and that of course depends on your skill set. Thank goodness the decision was made for son, because if he had the choice he would not have chosen being a pitcher only and we are very glad (and he) he was projected as one.

He's come full circle though, now hitting as a NL player and personally I don't care for it, and the risk of injury is huge. I think it's just tough on college guys when there is time contraints, between bull pens, batting cages, gym, studying and class.

JMO.

Bsbl247son signed his NLI last month, and will be given the opportunity as a 2-way RHP/OF...However, we know that things can change and he'll have to work very hard once he sets foot on campus next year. It takes a special player to do both at the D1 level. The current 2011 35 man Roster has one player listed as a 2-way. If it was easy to do, every program would recruit more position/pitchers to help the 11.7 scholly threshold...obviously it's tough, based on the small percentage of athletes doing it.

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Originally posted by Coach Merc:
I'd say from what I've seen the figure is pretty acurate.
Here is a question along the same lines and maybe some of you with son's who are pitchers can answer. If many parents are concerned with pitch counts and the health of their son's arms (which they all should be), how can a coach pitch the player one day and use him to his pitch count and then put him at SS or CF (examples) the next day? Shouldn't that be the day of rest? Doesn't that increase injury or over usage? Sometimes this happend during the second game of a double header.

I agree with you Coach. If my kid remains healthy, he'll be the number one SP this season for his HS team, and play the outfield. Once league begins, games will be on Wednesday's and Friday's. He'll play the OF on Wednesday's, and pitch on Friday's. Having him pitch on Friday will allow him to rest his arm over the weekend and reduce stress. This past Saturday he pitched in the morning game, and DH'd in the afternoon game...taking care of young arms is very important.

For some their best, or most marketable, position is not apparent until quite a number of seasons have passed. It helps to keep all options on the table as long as possible.

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Originally posted by TPM:
... I think it's just tough on college guys when there is time contraints, between bull pens, batting cages, gym, studying and class.

TPM, you also just explained a catchers life, except take the bull pens and multiply the time spent by at least 6.

I have noticed in recent seasons that Duke has a different philosophy about two-way players. They keep their roster size low (may be partly due to the difficulties getting into Duke) and seem to recruit kids who can play both ways. Of their 26 players, 3 are listed as pitchers and infielders/outfielders.

Maybe Rob Kremer can chime in and give us some insight as to the Duke coach's philosophy on this.

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if you are a 2 way player, better to market yourself as a position player, and let them find out that you can pitch too.

AGREE 100%

That's what happened with my son. He established himself as a hitter thinking they might ask him to pitch later on .... he was and he did. BUT this was against his and my wishes..... however we weren't calling the shots. It's nice to see your son take the mound but it's also nice to see him hit.... BUT doing both does impede overall development in both areas. Parents and players should understand that coaches do what is best for the team and that's not always the best for individual players....

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... I think it's just tough on college guys when there is time constraints, between bull pens, batting cages, gym, studying and class.

quote:

... you also just explained a catchers life, except take the bull pens and multiply the time spent by at least 6.

I think it would be a very low figure. A majority of (pronounced - most) college pitchers are not recruited to be hitters. Hitting and pitching are two different skill sets that must be refined over time. Once a player reaches college, they concentrate on one of those skills based on their recruited position. Also, the strength and conditioning for a pitcher and a position player are different. Pitchers focus on core strength and flexibility. Hitters have similar focus, but are allowed to lose flexibility for size and strength.

Plus, there are the risks of being hit in the arm/hand/fingers during an AB.

GED10DaD

I am going to dissent from the 1.9% of all D1 players. Less than 1 in 50, means 1 player every team and a half. While that may be true at the upper echelon teams, there are 301 D1 teams. Doing the math, that would be 200 two way D1 players. On my sons team alone there are four. On teams in my sons conference (6 teams), there are 13 other position/pitchers listed. That's almost 10% of what it would take to be 1.9% of all D1 players in 2% of all D1 teams.

Sorry, but the math simply doesn't work.

To me a two way player is one that actually plays two positions on a regular basis, the day he isn't pitching he is playing another position and in the line up. In the years son played college ball, in sons conference, there was only one I can remember. I don't think there are too many of these that play on a regular basis.

Yup I did describe a catcher, and interestingly enough that is why you don't find too many college catchers that can actually excel at both offense and defense. Just too much to get in on a daily basis.

Same way you really don't find many two way players that really excel at both pitching and hitting.

Army's team has 3 regulars...the 1B is the closer, the LF was actually all conference as both a LF and SP, and our DH is a SP.

I believe the disparity in the numbers becomes greater the further you get from the top. I remember seeing a good number of two way players through the years. My personal experience though is far from the top of the D1 heap. Because there are so many teams similar to the ones I am familiar with, I don't see how that number can be anywhere close to accurate.

quote:

Maybe Rob Kremer can chime in and give us some insight as to the Duke coach's philosophy on this.

When the Duke head coach visited to recruit my son, he did say he likes to keep his roster smaller than usual - 28-30 players. The only reason I remember him giving was something to do with keeping more guys on the field.

He didn't explain much about his philosophy on two way players, but it does stand to reason that if you are going to forgo 5 or 6 roster spots, you'll probably recruit some two way players.

And so yes, several players on last year's team played a position and pitched. However, the team ERA was not great, almost a run higher than their opponents last year.

Duke had more two way guys than any team I knew of last year. But here's an oddity: one guy who hardly pitched at all (5.2 innings) was a 6-4 lefty who threw 90MPH. He was a good hitter, played 1st base all season, and then was drafted my the Mets as a pitcher!

So go figure! The team that has more two way players than almost any other team didn't pitch a guy who got drafted as a pitcher!

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"So go figure!"

All righty Rob. Have you got five or six minutes? Sit back and enjoy.

It's nothing to sneeze at!




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