by clevedad,
bee "Are you a lawyer by any chance?"
OUCH! & double OUCH!
no, I actually work for a living, dirty hands etc
in reading thru alot of resonable responses on both sides, one thing seems to ring true
the "CULTURAL INFLUENCE"
if the parent was raised in a family or community with 'HEALTHY VIEW" of alcohol -
a tolerant additude is evident
if the parent was raised in a family or community where alcohol was a problem or viewed as "THE KEYS TO THE EVIL EMPIRE" - a very intolerant view is evident
and, before you're too quick to comdem Pabbmom, the additudes & actions in their peer group may well have prevented tradgedies - - in fact the info she related only support that conclusion
yes Will, something IS wrong there - in my 35 yrs since hs, including being active with kids while mine were school age (coaching, chaperoning, etc), and also counting my wife's 12 yrs in the medical field I/we don't know anyone who was treated at the ER for alcohol poisoning
tho during the '70's when Ohio was 18 yrs (for 3.2), we'd often see kids from Pitt in Y'town and Kent getting pretty crazy with their newfound freedom -
John, that's truly sad regarding the drowning tragedy - thoughts & prayers to the family
also Will, is it taught in health class/alcohol unit that during night swimming under the infulence, the inner ear/sense of balance can be screwed up to the point the swimmer will swim franticly to the bottom thinking it's the surface?? the cause of most night swimming tragedies!
Spot on, Bee --- most of our attitudes come from personal experience, and many times people presume those attitudes to be the same as Universal Truth.
In England, all new mothers are offered as much Guiness as they want because of the iron content and the effect alchohol has in dialating the blood vessels --- it helps breastfeeding. Patients in hospital are given wine with dinner, particularly those with mobility problems, for the same reason -- dialating the blood vessels helps blood flow and therefore healing. When my son had colic, I was "prescribed" brandy to help soothe him.
Alchohol doesn't mean excess. Excess means excess.
In England, all new mothers are offered as much Guiness as they want because of the iron content and the effect alchohol has in dialating the blood vessels --- it helps breastfeeding. Patients in hospital are given wine with dinner, particularly those with mobility problems, for the same reason -- dialating the blood vessels helps blood flow and therefore healing. When my son had colic, I was "prescribed" brandy to help soothe him.
Alchohol doesn't mean excess. Excess means excess.
For starters, I nominate this thread for the Golden Threads forum. Bee, just to be clear, my comment was meant as a compliment to your argumentitive skills.
The following is somewhat stream of conscious so please forgive in advance.
After reading the many outstanding posts on this subject, I have found myself waffling on the issue somewhat. Not necessarily to the narrower issue of drinking on an official visit but to the broader issue of teenage drinking itself.
It seems you need the wisdom of Solomon to be a parent these days. These are some of the questions I have: When something is strictly forbidden does it make it even more alluring to the child? If we are to forbid our children, should we also not drink ourselves?
I have tried to rationalize these feeling by saying that I am a responsible drinker for the most part. I can go weeks without drinking and not miss it one bit. At the same time, I love to drink and enjoy the effects of alcohol. I also have a long memory as Orlando suggests and there is a certain amount of guilt I carry with me.
The real issue we all have is the fear of something harmful happening to our children while at the same time wanting them to have normal and fun social lives at college. Thus, it seems to me that drinking will ALWAYS be part of the college experience and we should promote ideas that mitigate any possible harm.
On the record, I tell my kids not to drink until they reach legal age. Off the record, I forbid drinking and driving or getting into the car with a drunk. I have told my son 1000 times I will gladly pay for a cab or motel room no matter what the expense and regardless of whether you have to leave your car behind or not.
With respect to the official visit - I think the recruit has to be told forcefully up front by the team leader and/or coach whether they may be exposed to some drinking while they visit but by no means are they expected in any way to participate. This way, all conflicts and ambiguities are resolved for the player.
For instance, if the recruit is being taken to a football game, I can guarantee they will be exposed to drinking. The purpose of the trip is about the young man only and baseball. It is in no way a test to the young man's manhood whether he turns down a drink. He needs to know upfront that how he acts in these social settings of the visit (drinking wise) does not impact the view of him as a player or teammate.
Sorry for rambling but....
Here is a tip for parents when they travel. We used to leave my older son home alone when we traveled. On one trip many years ago, he hosted a party where both sides of the street for hundreds and hundreds of feet were occupied with vehicles of teenagers having a party at our home. When we got home, the neighbor came rushing up and said...you should have seen the party at your house - there must have been 200 kids there!!!! I was enraged and horrified at the same. I said why didn't you call the cops! After I settled down, I realized it wasn't my neighbor's responsibility but mine.
Ever since, when we were both out of town, I called the police station within ear-shot of my son. I asked them if they would kindly watch my house for any signs of a party. You know what? The police where happy that I called. Their only question was whether he was allowed to have any cars over. I said no more than one car at a time and only to pick him up or drop him off. They said fine, watched my house like a hawk, and I never had a problem again.
The following is somewhat stream of conscious so please forgive in advance.
After reading the many outstanding posts on this subject, I have found myself waffling on the issue somewhat. Not necessarily to the narrower issue of drinking on an official visit but to the broader issue of teenage drinking itself.
It seems you need the wisdom of Solomon to be a parent these days. These are some of the questions I have: When something is strictly forbidden does it make it even more alluring to the child? If we are to forbid our children, should we also not drink ourselves?
I have tried to rationalize these feeling by saying that I am a responsible drinker for the most part. I can go weeks without drinking and not miss it one bit. At the same time, I love to drink and enjoy the effects of alcohol. I also have a long memory as Orlando suggests and there is a certain amount of guilt I carry with me.
The real issue we all have is the fear of something harmful happening to our children while at the same time wanting them to have normal and fun social lives at college. Thus, it seems to me that drinking will ALWAYS be part of the college experience and we should promote ideas that mitigate any possible harm.
On the record, I tell my kids not to drink until they reach legal age. Off the record, I forbid drinking and driving or getting into the car with a drunk. I have told my son 1000 times I will gladly pay for a cab or motel room no matter what the expense and regardless of whether you have to leave your car behind or not.
With respect to the official visit - I think the recruit has to be told forcefully up front by the team leader and/or coach whether they may be exposed to some drinking while they visit but by no means are they expected in any way to participate. This way, all conflicts and ambiguities are resolved for the player.
For instance, if the recruit is being taken to a football game, I can guarantee they will be exposed to drinking. The purpose of the trip is about the young man only and baseball. It is in no way a test to the young man's manhood whether he turns down a drink. He needs to know upfront that how he acts in these social settings of the visit (drinking wise) does not impact the view of him as a player or teammate.
Sorry for rambling but....
Here is a tip for parents when they travel. We used to leave my older son home alone when we traveled. On one trip many years ago, he hosted a party where both sides of the street for hundreds and hundreds of feet were occupied with vehicles of teenagers having a party at our home. When we got home, the neighbor came rushing up and said...you should have seen the party at your house - there must have been 200 kids there!!!! I was enraged and horrified at the same. I said why didn't you call the cops! After I settled down, I realized it wasn't my neighbor's responsibility but mine.
Ever since, when we were both out of town, I called the police station within ear-shot of my son. I asked them if they would kindly watch my house for any signs of a party. You know what? The police where happy that I called. Their only question was whether he was allowed to have any cars over. I said no more than one car at a time and only to pick him up or drop him off. They said fine, watched my house like a hawk, and I never had a problem again.
Official visits--never heard of one--my son's or others'-where alcohol was not available.
Parents who host parties--the rest of us hate you. How come you never call the parents of the kids who attend your parties to make sure that it is ok with US if they drink at your house?
Parties at our house--Thanks to a very nosy nextdoor neighbor, never an issue--at least not with the first one....
The forbidden fruit--I was told by a very reliable source that the reason for drinking in HS had a lot to do with the fact that it was illegal and against house rules and that was what made it fun. Once it is easily available at college, it wasn't as fun and, as a result, happened far less often.
My son/daughter doesn't drink-- I hope all of you are correct. We know a lot of parents who said the same of their kids, but in every single case we knew differently. The difficult question is whether or not to say anything about it.
Parents who host parties--the rest of us hate you. How come you never call the parents of the kids who attend your parties to make sure that it is ok with US if they drink at your house?
Parties at our house--Thanks to a very nosy nextdoor neighbor, never an issue--at least not with the first one....
The forbidden fruit--I was told by a very reliable source that the reason for drinking in HS had a lot to do with the fact that it was illegal and against house rules and that was what made it fun. Once it is easily available at college, it wasn't as fun and, as a result, happened far less often.
My son/daughter doesn't drink-- I hope all of you are correct. We know a lot of parents who said the same of their kids, but in every single case we knew differently. The difficult question is whether or not to say anything about it.
quote:if the parent was raised in a family or community with 'HEALTHY VIEW" of alcohol -
a tolerant additude is evident
And whose definition do you choose to use then you define "healthy view"? well, I thnk it seems obvious that it is your personal definition based on the following "leap":
quote:if the parent was raised in a family or community where alcohol was a problem or viewed as "THE KEYS TO THE EVIL EMPIRE" - a very intolerant view is evident
It would seem from some of your comments that those of us who feel that consuming alcohol should be discouraged .. one doesn't have to recover from alcoholism if the path is never taken ... have an "unhealthy view" and therefore very intolerant view. Well, that is quite a leap from estblishing rules in our own homes that say illegal activities will not be tolerated, just as it is a big leap to imply that those of us who maintained a relatively authoritative household were ruling with an iron fist. Both my husband and I consume alcohol ... tho my consumption has diminished significantly as my age has advanced and my values have changed. We don't really care what other people do legally when it comes to alcohol, but I can say that there would have been hell to pay had my son ever been in a home where the parents provided alcohol to underage drinkers. For some of us, it isn't a matter of any "cultural
But then, this goes back to my earlier comment about swimming against the tide ... it gets a little tiring but I can use the exercise.
I would like to second the motion that this thread be added to the "Golden Thread" forum. It has been most thought-provoking.
Seems to me that there is a chasm between idealism vs. realism and how each of us chooses to handle the two entities. It appears most of us have the same "ideal" here.....under-aged drinking is something we don't want our kids to participate in...PERIOD. However, that "ideal" wasn't very "realistic" in MY college experience....and I don't expect it is very realistic in my son and daughter's college experiences either. It is how we choose to bridge this gap between the idealistic and realistic expectations that seems to be the issue. Do we insist that our kids don't drink at college, and leave it at that? Would that have worked when YOU were a college student? Or do we understand that drinking is a part of most college experiences and prepare our kids to deal with it the best they can? The best I can do is to teach them what is expected and if they decide to ignore it....I've talked to them re: drinking responsibly (something that was never done in my household growing up...because WE JUST DIDN'T DRINK AT ALL) ....and if they don't learn how to partake responsibly they've been taught the possible reprocussions (physical, legal,and moral), ad nauseum (no pun intended
). There comes a point where you can preach thru words and actions only so long...our kids have to decide if they want to adopt our lessons, ignore them, or incorporate SOME of our beliefs with SOME of theirs. That is part of growing up...and a BIG part of a college education IMO. I've seen enough bizarre choices coming from IMO great families that I sometimes think it might just be a c*r*a*p shoot as to whether our kids get thru unscathed...but we want to give our kids the best odds at it. Personally, I don't know what MORE I can do, and my kids can never claim to not know what MY viewpoint on under-aged drinking is...it is now up to my kids to make their choices. I might HATE some of those choices and I'll surely let them know it, but I'm going to love them no matter what.
Re: official visits and alcohol. I can say that I know my son's college team mates would NEVER think negatively upon anyone who decides to not drink...recruit or not. In our experiences, I don't think whether a recruit decides to have a drink or not is part of the "recruiting decision making" on the coach's part either. Personally, I don't even know if the team has any voice at all in WHO the coach ultimately decides to bring onto the team...unless there was some VERY BIZARRE behavior exhibited by the recruit that the team feels is in the best interest for the coach to be aware of. Personally, if my son went on a recruiting visit where everyone got falling-down drunk....I would thank my lucky stars that he got to see it on the official visit...and NOT when he showed up in the fall after a "less than honest" recruiting trip where the team was obviously on their best behavior. I'd rather he made his decision based on an honest assessment of team camraderie and behavior both on and off the field so he could determine if THAT is the environment he wants to deal with for the next 4 years of his life.
Seems to me that there is a chasm between idealism vs. realism and how each of us chooses to handle the two entities. It appears most of us have the same "ideal" here.....under-aged drinking is something we don't want our kids to participate in...PERIOD. However, that "ideal" wasn't very "realistic" in MY college experience....and I don't expect it is very realistic in my son and daughter's college experiences either. It is how we choose to bridge this gap between the idealistic and realistic expectations that seems to be the issue. Do we insist that our kids don't drink at college, and leave it at that? Would that have worked when YOU were a college student? Or do we understand that drinking is a part of most college experiences and prepare our kids to deal with it the best they can? The best I can do is to teach them what is expected and if they decide to ignore it....I've talked to them re: drinking responsibly (something that was never done in my household growing up...because WE JUST DIDN'T DRINK AT ALL) ....and if they don't learn how to partake responsibly they've been taught the possible reprocussions (physical, legal,and moral), ad nauseum (no pun intended
). There comes a point where you can preach thru words and actions only so long...our kids have to decide if they want to adopt our lessons, ignore them, or incorporate SOME of our beliefs with SOME of theirs. That is part of growing up...and a BIG part of a college education IMO. I've seen enough bizarre choices coming from IMO great families that I sometimes think it might just be a c*r*a*p shoot as to whether our kids get thru unscathed...but we want to give our kids the best odds at it. Personally, I don't know what MORE I can do, and my kids can never claim to not know what MY viewpoint on under-aged drinking is...it is now up to my kids to make their choices. I might HATE some of those choices and I'll surely let them know it, but I'm going to love them no matter what.Re: official visits and alcohol. I can say that I know my son's college team mates would NEVER think negatively upon anyone who decides to not drink...recruit or not. In our experiences, I don't think whether a recruit decides to have a drink or not is part of the "recruiting decision making" on the coach's part either. Personally, I don't even know if the team has any voice at all in WHO the coach ultimately decides to bring onto the team...unless there was some VERY BIZARRE behavior exhibited by the recruit that the team feels is in the best interest for the coach to be aware of. Personally, if my son went on a recruiting visit where everyone got falling-down drunk....I would thank my lucky stars that he got to see it on the official visit...and NOT when he showed up in the fall after a "less than honest" recruiting trip where the team was obviously on their best behavior. I'd rather he made his decision based on an honest assessment of team camraderie and behavior both on and off the field so he could determine if THAT is the environment he wants to deal with for the next 4 years of his life.
Everyone is expressing opinions here, FutureBackMom. By definition, that is their view.
As I was the one who used the 'iron fist' reference, may I clarify that that was also my experience, as stated. It was your "big leap" FBM, to apply it to "those of us" and personalize it.
And there are cultural differences in the world (no quotation marks needed --- there is a world and I'm not using the word ironically), many of which have both been imported into the US and have influenced both American culture and law. Cultural differences are not an attack on anyone's values or opinions.
This is a conservative country. Why do people with conservative views regard themselves as swimming against the tide? "Conservative rebel" seems like quite an oxymoron.
As I was the one who used the 'iron fist' reference, may I clarify that that was also my experience, as stated. It was your "big leap" FBM, to apply it to "those of us" and personalize it.
And there are cultural differences in the world (no quotation marks needed --- there is a world and I'm not using the word ironically), many of which have both been imported into the US and have influenced both American culture and law. Cultural differences are not an attack on anyone's values or opinions.
This is a conservative country. Why do people with conservative views regard themselves as swimming against the tide? "Conservative rebel" seems like quite an oxymoron
.
As luvbb said, this thread has been most thought-provoking. When I scout kids, the first thing that happens is I try and decide if the young man is a prospect or not. If I feel he is a prospect, I will then check out his background to the best of my ability. Part of that check is to see if anything pops up in the way of drugs, alcohol or off field problems.
There was one reason only that I ran an Area Code Team for many years.......I wanted to be right next to the kids for a week or so, because from experience, red flags would pop up if things were not just right. In scouting, we make mistakes on talent all the time, but in the 11 years that I had an Area Code Team, I never made a mistake on a players make up. Having the team saved me a few times, because there were some players that I would have drafted if I had not known some things that I found out by being around them so much. I had one player (4th round pick) who died from alcohol poisoning at age 26. All the signs were there at 17.
Of all the players that I have signed over the years, the one that I knew would get to be as good as he possibly could be was Chris Singleton. He did not drink, smoke, swear or do anything wrong. He just worked hard and it turned out that he got to be as good as he could be. He put up with teamates who ragged him for never drinking and also for being religious. He ended up being nosed out by Carlos Beltran for the Rookie of the Year award and while he was doing that, he also went back to college and completed his degree.
Only one time have I signed a guy who had red flags, and the sad part was that we released him in "AA" when he had an ERA of 1.92. He was a much better prospect than Singleton, but the bottle was more important to him and he never sniffed the big leagues.
There was one reason only that I ran an Area Code Team for many years.......I wanted to be right next to the kids for a week or so, because from experience, red flags would pop up if things were not just right. In scouting, we make mistakes on talent all the time, but in the 11 years that I had an Area Code Team, I never made a mistake on a players make up. Having the team saved me a few times, because there were some players that I would have drafted if I had not known some things that I found out by being around them so much. I had one player (4th round pick) who died from alcohol poisoning at age 26. All the signs were there at 17.
Of all the players that I have signed over the years, the one that I knew would get to be as good as he possibly could be was Chris Singleton. He did not drink, smoke, swear or do anything wrong. He just worked hard and it turned out that he got to be as good as he could be. He put up with teamates who ragged him for never drinking and also for being religious. He ended up being nosed out by Carlos Beltran for the Rookie of the Year award and while he was doing that, he also went back to college and completed his degree.
Only one time have I signed a guy who had red flags, and the sad part was that we released him in "AA" when he had an ERA of 1.92. He was a much better prospect than Singleton, but the bottle was more important to him and he never sniffed the big leagues.
Orlando ...
Your points are well taken, but if I may clarify a couple of things:
>>I mis-typed/mis-spoke when I used the term 'cultural difference' ... meant 'cultural influence'; I do not see how the statements Bee> used regarding tolerance and intolerance have anything to do with cultural influence ... personal experiences, perhaps. But I still think it is quite a leap to use the word 'intolerant' under these circumstances
>>My use of world in quotes has to do with being "in this world but not of this world"
>>Why do people with conservatie views regard themselves as swimming againt the tide? To answer this would really put us off topic and I suspect we would all probably prefer not to have another one of those threads ... as happened a couple of times pre-election last year ... that pitted some "friends" against "friends" etc. Please let it suffice for me to say, with all due respect to your life experiences and your opinions, that there really are times that I do feel like a "conservative rebel" ... after all, this is the Left Coast out here, even if I am living in one of the most conservative counties ... sometimes I have to drive out of the OC and face other realities
Your points are well taken, but if I may clarify a couple of things:
>>I mis-typed/mis-spoke when I used the term 'cultural difference' ... meant 'cultural influence'; I do not see how the statements Bee> used regarding tolerance and intolerance have anything to do with cultural influence ... personal experiences, perhaps. But I still think it is quite a leap to use the word 'intolerant' under these circumstances
>>My use of world in quotes has to do with being "in this world but not of this world"
>>Why do people with conservatie views regard themselves as swimming againt the tide? To answer this would really put us off topic and I suspect we would all probably prefer not to have another one of those threads ... as happened a couple of times pre-election last year ... that pitted some "friends" against "friends" etc. Please let it suffice for me to say, with all due respect to your life experiences and your opinions, that there really are times that I do feel like a "conservative rebel" ... after all, this is the Left Coast out here, even if I am living in one of the most conservative counties ... sometimes I have to drive out of the OC and face other realities
I grew up in a household that had no tolerance for drinking....out of the 5 children that were products of that environment 4 will drink on occasion 1 is a teetotaler...myself...my husband and I do not drink..but I would be an outright liar to say that none of my 3 children has not tried it or even been inebriated once or twice...I vividly remember my oldest attending a party and calling me to get her as she had had a few too many...I picked her up(bringing with me a large bucket as car motion can induce vomiting)...she used that bucket all the way home...I never said one word to her either way about what she had done and she quizzed me a few weeks later as to why I had not read her the riot act...I explained to her that I was very angry at what she had done and probably would have said a lot I would have regretted later but that I also felt that since she was so sick that was a lesson in of itself on just how much fun it is to drink...well she is now 27 and does not drink...lesson learned...it would be very naive on my part to assume that at my sons college drinking is not part and parcle of their weekend activities....I have lectured on the ramifications of drinking to excess...what alcohol does to your brain(ever see someone with Korsakoff's Syndrome) and other parts of your body...the whole gamut...every conversation I have with him I add some thought on drinking so that he hears my voice every time he hoists one....does it work...I am not sure...but I will give my hardest and ****edest to prevent it....I do not abide in the rationalization that everyone is doing it therefore we must be tolerant...I will never be tolerant...if we hold to that theory then why not just go out and break every law set forth because everyone is "doing it"...as far as allowing my child to drink in your home...sorry but if you allow this then when I do find out(and I will find out) then you will have very irate mother to deal with...as far as the ethnic component...my husband is European....ouzo and retsina are always gracing the tables of family and friends and despite having had it that way for years many still become quite inebriated especially at functions...I am of the heritage that is well known for their drinking capabilities....beening drunk is not flattering and I have seen many who have made fools of themselves while under the influence...I can do that without the aid of alcohol
Discussions like this are always difficult because, despite the existance of the dictionary, we all have our own interpretations of words.
Being realistic does not equal tolerance. A parent can realistically expect their child to be offered alcohol, that doesn't mean they won't come down on that child for accepting.
Understanding why a child accepted that alcohol (those of us with long memories again), also doesn't mean condoning that act.
Being part of a culture that accepts alcohol openly also doesn't equate to abuse. Personally, I don't think that scare tactics work with teenagers, I think that element of danger can intrigue some with the tactic having the opposite effect.
Again, it's a matter of doing our best to equip them to make the right choice, and still being there to love them and protect them when they don't.
Being realistic does not equal tolerance. A parent can realistically expect their child to be offered alcohol, that doesn't mean they won't come down on that child for accepting.
Understanding why a child accepted that alcohol (those of us with long memories again), also doesn't mean condoning that act.
Being part of a culture that accepts alcohol openly also doesn't equate to abuse. Personally, I don't think that scare tactics work with teenagers, I think that element of danger can intrigue some with the tactic having the opposite effect.
Again, it's a matter of doing our best to equip them to make the right choice, and still being there to love them and protect them when they don't.
"Being realistic does not equal tolerance...It's a matter of doing our best to equip them to make the right choice and still being there to love them when they don't." 
I'm not so sure about the "protect" part tho....As much as "protect" is in my nature as a mom, I would want my kids to face the consequences of their actions if they are merited. To me, that's one of the hardest aspects of parenting...stepping back and letting the chips fall (especially when they know the action they chose was illegal). Sometimes it is how they learn best.
I'm not so sure about the "protect" part tho....As much as "protect" is in my nature as a mom, I would want my kids to face the consequences of their actions if they are merited. To me, that's one of the hardest aspects of parenting...stepping back and letting the chips fall (especially when they know the action they chose was illegal). Sometimes it is how they learn best.
There's that old debill word problem again. Perhaps 'protect' wasn't the word I should have used. I meant as in making sure they know that no matter what they do, there's one person who will always be there for them and get them what they need. (Words again: "need" doesn't mean "want".)
Orlando...you have a PM
Great Thread!
I can't say my boys have never had a drink. I will say they did not drink in HS. They felt baseball was to important, and knew not only our view on the subject but the coaches.
From reading this board, and I haven't seen it come up, sometimes recruits are offered beer just to see if they will. Maybe the coach finds out and the offer is gone.
Mine was offered at 2 of 4 schools he visited. He decided not to persue either of those schools, yet his decision of where to play didn't pan out either.... just because it wasn't offered during the visit doesn't mean it is not going to be around, and by the players, not just the general students. So in someways maybe it is best you KNOW upfront that is going to be part of it, and if it happens HOW to handle it.
From another thread on here years ago a mom or dad over heard their player talking with a bunch of guys over xmas what they did, something to the effect that the college guys were taking up collections for a keg and their son gave $10. When the classmate asked why when you don't drink, he answered, the more you drink, the worse you play, and the better shot I have at taking your job.
This is why I LOVE this PLACE!!
PA, thanks for your honesty. I would rather my son be at your house, with you having his keys than out at Beenthere's park, and decide to drive home.
I can't say my boys have never had a drink. I will say they did not drink in HS. They felt baseball was to important, and knew not only our view on the subject but the coaches.
From reading this board, and I haven't seen it come up, sometimes recruits are offered beer just to see if they will. Maybe the coach finds out and the offer is gone.
Mine was offered at 2 of 4 schools he visited. He decided not to persue either of those schools, yet his decision of where to play didn't pan out either.... just because it wasn't offered during the visit doesn't mean it is not going to be around, and by the players, not just the general students. So in someways maybe it is best you KNOW upfront that is going to be part of it, and if it happens HOW to handle it.
From another thread on here years ago a mom or dad over heard their player talking with a bunch of guys over xmas what they did, something to the effect that the college guys were taking up collections for a keg and their son gave $10. When the classmate asked why when you don't drink, he answered, the more you drink, the worse you play, and the better shot I have at taking your job.
This is why I LOVE this PLACE!!
PA, thanks for your honesty. I would rather my son be at your house, with you having his keys than out at Beenthere's park, and decide to drive home.
FMB - - WOW - that's some selective comprehension
the LEAP was yours by removing a few of my statements from any previous context
while it would seem unlikely that someone could take my observations so far out of context - your extreme response just may give more credence to them
anyway - this is not directed at anyone - just a simplification "almost" anyone can understand
regarding views on alcohol
IF - -
#1 - a kid's introduction is by his parents at a Polka Grove in the Pocono's
or
#2 - a kid's introduction is protecting his mom from a drunk boyfriend
their perspectives are sure to be vastly different
peace
the LEAP was yours by removing a few of my statements from any previous context
while it would seem unlikely that someone could take my observations so far out of context - your extreme response just may give more credence to them
anyway - this is not directed at anyone - just a simplification "almost" anyone can understand
regarding views on alcohol
IF - -
#1 - a kid's introduction is by his parents at a Polka Grove in the Pocono's
or
#2 - a kid's introduction is protecting his mom from a drunk boyfriend
their perspectives are sure to be vastly different
peace
I enjoyed observing your observations, and since my son is a likely recruiting host this fall, forwarded them to him for his observation.........
Thanks for taking the time.
Thanks for taking the time.
But if you're FormerObserver how can you be currently observing? 
I guess it's time for a new name..........
Hi Hard Heat get's first pick.
Hi Hard Heat get's first pick.
Mmmmm....I don't know....H3's come up with some pretty off-the-wall names!