Enough is enough.........Pitch Counts- 177

Stats,

I would have to disagree with a couple things you've said.

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I don’t know if its necessarily luck. There’s a lot of things that take place in baseball that are chalked up to luck, but in reality, even a mediocre pitcher can and often does have success.

I would consider that luck. Luck that will soon be running out!

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I recently read an article that said the average difference in a ML pitcher’s FB and CU is 8.1 mph. Of course that means there are some both above and below that number, but it always trips me out that people seem to believe in that magic number 10, never realizing its not the difference on a gun, but the diference in what the batter perceives.

That article would be wrong. 8 mph would be more like the differential between slider and fastball. While some throw their changeup with less differential, most would be between 10-13 mph. The key to a good change are... Location... Movement... Deception (What the batter perceives)... Speed differential (What the gun reads)

News Flash! Your kid is not Nolan Ryan. Your kid is not Scot Shields. That's right, your kid is talented and has some potential and he may have more durability than most but he isn't Nolan Ryan and he isn't Scot Shields and he can't throw as many pitches as they could without injury.

The pitch counts didn't really apply to those guys. They probably do apply to most of our kids. They do the studies on groups. The reality is that going over 110 pitches puts most adult pitchers at risk. Some can do more, some can do less. Your HS pitcher can probably handle similar amounts but shouldn't because he hasn't been around long enough for anyone to know what the long term effects are going to be on him.

PG,
Bigger differentials are generally better but the key for the change is that is has movement, deception and differential. Change ups can be very effective with differentials as low as 6 or 7 mph as long as there is deception (same release point as other pitches) and movement.

I have no idea what the differential is on Jared Weaver's change up, probably on the high side, but I do know that he has a very different release point than most any other pitcher in baseball and that he releases his change, fastball and breaking pitches closer to the same location than any other pitcher in the game.

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Originally posted by CADad:
News Flash! Your kid is not Nolan Ryan. Your kid is not Scot Shields. That's right, your kid is talented and has some potential and he may have more durability than most but he isn't Nolan Ryan and he isn't Scot Shields and he can't throw as many pitches as they could without injury.

The pitch counts didn't really apply to those guys. They probably do apply to most of our kids. They do the studies on groups. The reality is that going over 110 pitches puts most adult pitchers at risk. Some can do more, some can do less. Your HS pitcher can probably handle similar amounts but shouldn't because he hasn't been around long enough for anyone to know what the long term effects are going to be on him.

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Originally posted by junior5:
If the HS player says he is okay whose fault is it for that player getting hurt if he does? IMO it is that player's fault. He put himself at risk. Not the coach. You can't blame a coach for listening to a player. The coach's job is to win games. correct? So, if he is told by a player who has carried his team all year most likely that he can keep going why would he take the player out of the game? He wouldn't! Yes, I'm just a player and I'm not nearly as wise as most of you, but you can't blame a coach for making a decision to win the game. That player had the chance to say no and he didn't.

You're right on the money here. It's the player's job to tell the coach if something's not right or he may have to come out. Players need to wise up and speak up when something don't feel right. When my kid played HS ball, he had no problem speaking out if something was wrong and had to come out of a game and he was as competitive as anybody on the field. He was a full time starter and player and it didn't affect his status on or off the field. Nor was his toughness ever questioned. I never met a coach that would berate a player or punish him because he's injured and can't go on. To blame it all on the coach is a copout and pushing blame off where it belongs...On the player. HS is where these players need to speak up and think for themselves because after HS, they're gong on their own.

I can't beleive many of the replies on this subject. So zombywolf how do you know your son's toughness was ever questioned, is that just your point or did you talk to the coaches at every game.
By the way I am not questioning his toughness just asking how you knew.

As far as never meeting a coach that would berate a player because he is injured does not apply here, we are trying to prevent a player from being injured due to overuse.

And I wish high school players would speak up but from what I have seen and maybe our midwest kids are not as grown up as the east coast but most do not and they will just fight having to give up the ball. I have watched coaches push the reason of why he left a kid in for what most would think was too long on the player.

High School maight be where players are learning to speak for themselves but I don't think the process is complete and after high school they might be on their own but I bet most still need an opinion from time to time.

Everyone has an opinion and I respect everyone's opinion. My opinion is its the coaches job to look after his players. Its his job to protect from their intense desire to win and compete in those times where they could hurt themselves by doing so. When I go to the mound because of a pitch count issue the decision is already made. And its not the pitchers call. Its my call. I fully expect him to tell me he has it and he can finish it. I fully expect him to bow up and battle. If I didnt think he felt that way he wouldnt be out there in the first place. And he can fully expect me to take the ball pat him on the backside and tell him good job as he walks off the field.

The reason I set a rigid pitch count before the game for a pitcher is as much for me as it is for him. I dont want to be looking at my assistant coach in a tight game saying "Should we let him go?" "Do we go get him?" Nope that call has been made before the game ever started and its out of his hands and I have taken it off the table before the first pitch was thrown.

I am not going to have to live with the thought that I did, I could have, I might have, hurt a young kid who was out there fighting his heart out for us. I would rather lose a game than have to live with that. I want players that will run through a brick wall for our team. Its my job to throw a cushion up in front of that wall so they dont get hurt running into it.

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Originally posted by TPM:
…As you all know my son worked with a former ML pitcher (pcoach for high A Palm Beach), I am going to ask him to ask Dennis about the velocity of his time and the velocity of the pitchers throwing today.
I don't think he threw that hard.

I’ve talked about this with a very good friend who threw in pro baseball from ’39 to ’60, scouted from ’60 to ’68, and was the Dodgers pitching coach from ’68 to 80, and with a few of his former pitchers, including Bob Welch among others, and the main difference is, no one placed such a high value on it in the pros.

The only velocity gradients were a pitcher either threw very hard or hard. There was much more emphasis on getting batter out than how hard the pitcher threw. Its as though no one today can make a judgment about a pitcher without the little numbers on gun.

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Now I know that all pitchers are different, mine was taught to pitch to contact, when he was younger. I think that is what helped, less pitches thrown, less time on the mound, able to get through more innings with fewer pitches. Don't be afraid if you get hit is what he was taught.

I really feel a big issue today is young kids NOT pitching to contact. They are afraid of getting hit. If they did make more contact, more frequently, then you wouldn't see 177 pitches, this pitcher had to have gone deep in the count and was nibbling.

I think you’re right to at least some degree, but that part of baseball history will hopefully change in the very near future. Good coaches have always screamed at, cajoled, and pleaded with their pitcher to pitch to contact, but those aren’t generally the coaches at the lower levels where the pitchers learn to “pitch”. Then to make it even worse, those same coaches have taken over the calling of the pitches, and thus control the pitcher to a great degree.

IMHO, a lot of it had to do with bats getting hotter and hotter, and coaches had reason to be worried. Its why they became afraid to challenge hitters in the strike zone, and I believe it’s a reason so many coaches refuse to call CU’s. It isn’t that the pitch isn’t effective, its that coaches who don’t have an in depth knowledge of the game have a deep rooted fear that anything less than a pitch traveling at warp speed will be crushed.

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As far as velocity, many many pro players can hit over 90, but some are just not as effective, so they have to scale back. In HS, you are not going to tell a pitcher throwing 95 to turn it down, but eventually that velo will turn into experience and won't be needed.

the problem is with HS pitchers who throw 95 because there just aren’t that many. More often its with the ones in the 85-90 range who have mediocre to poor control and back off just a bit when they really need to throw a strike. It doesn’t take much of a back off to take 4-5 mph off a pitch, and two things can happen.

If it’s a 4 seamer on a string, things could easily get ugly, but if a 2 seamer backing off could give it much more movement and be a godsend. That’s what pitchers need to understand, and it’s the difference between throwing and pitching.

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Pitch F/X tells you a pitcher is tiring?

Never said that. What I was trying to get at, is that it’s the only thing I know of that accurately combines a velocity with a pitch type and outcome, which means to me that it’s the only real way to analyze a pitcher’s velocity to say when he may be fatigued.

junior5,

You’re correct. Peer pressure and pressure from coached has a lot to do with the attitude. But if you think about it, does that make it a smart thing to do?

The reasons athletes perform have changed a heck of a lot in the last 50 years, much of it because its been found out that some of the old ways weren’t necessarily the best ways.

Then there’s the same old problem of trying to equate kids with professional players. They are not the same.

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Originally posted by PGStaff:
I would consider that luck. Luck that will soon be running out!

I dunno. Most likely we’re just bandying about semantics. I know in HS I’ve seen one heck of a lot of pitchers the coach consider really weak, who got stuck in a game for some reason and had more than a little success to imagine its only a matter of luck.

Another way to describe it would be there are many pitchers who can get away with one time through the lineup, but you wouldn’t dare leave them out there for a 2nd. But that doesn’t mean they were lucky, it just means the hitters weren’t able to adjust quickly.

quote:

That article would be wrong. 8 mph would be more like the differential between slider and fastball. While some throw their changeup with less differential, most would be between 10-13 mph. The key to a good change are... Location... Movement... Deception (What the batter perceives)... Speed differential (What the gun reads)

I honestly don’t know if its right or wrong. I wish I could find it again, and if I do I’ll post the link, but as I remember it wasn’t some fly-by-night bozo saying it. But whatever is true, for sure not all pitchers are exactly the same, nor should they be, especially when you know pitchers throw at different velocities, so that a 10MPH difference for guys topping out at different velocities would represent a different percentage of change.

I agree about makes a good change. What I find heartbreaking, is that I know the only way for pitchers to master it is for them to throw it, but many many lower level coaches are afraid down to their skivvies that a CU will get pounded into oblivion, and since they call the pitches, won’t call it as often as they could.

I asked if you were scorekeeper, why no answer?

Kids don't pitch to contact because that can produce runs, wins are much more important these days in high priced travel ball than years ago. Or daddy has to teach a curve ball at 10 so son can strike out or "get through the game with less pitches". Then all of a sudden you have infielders and outfielders who have less defensive skills because they were standing around doing nothing while the pitcher was busy striking out kids who can't hit CBs.

It's easy to see why young pitchers, when doing well, are kept in the game for so long.

Not sure I understand what your point is so I will let it go at that.

The change up is taught too late to many pitchers, they become afraid to use it, and coaches too afraid to have them do so.

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Originally posted by TPM:
I asked if you were scorekeeper, why no answer?

Kids don't pitch to contact because that can produce runs, wins are much more important these days in high priced travel ball than years ago. Or daddy has to teach a curve ball at 10 so son can strike out or "get through the game with less pitches". Then all of a sudden you have infielders and outfielders who have less defensive skills because they were standing around doing nothing while the pitcher was busy striking out kids who can't hit CBs.

It's easy to see why young pitchers, when doing well, are kept in the game for so long.

Not sure I understand what your point is so I will let it go at that.

I thought the curve bein taught at 10 was long gone. My infielders and outfielders all got better with the reps we did at practice probably much more than any game.

What is too late to learn a change up?

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Originally posted by 2bagger:

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Originally posted by TPM:
I asked if you were scorekeeper, why no answer?

Kids don't pitch to contact because that can produce runs, wins are much more important these days in high priced travel ball than years ago. Or daddy has to teach a curve ball at 10 so son can strike out or "get through the game with less pitches". Then all of a sudden you have infielders and outfielders who have less defensive skills because they were standing around doing nothing while the pitcher was busy striking out kids who can't hit CBs.

It's easy to see why young pitchers, when doing well, are kept in the game for so long.

Not sure I understand what your point is so I will let it go at that.

I thought the curve bein taught at 10 was long gone. My infielders and outfielders all got better with the reps we did at practice probably much more than any game.

What is too late to learn a change up?

We had this discussion on another topic here. Best advice I beleive is learn the fb, then the change when young then the curve ball as it is an easier pitch to learn. For some it is the other way around, but I think that the longer a pitcher waits to learn to throw a change and experiment the more afraid he will be to use it.
JMO.

I agree tpm, but I was curious are they doing it different that that order in florida. Every player I know here learned fb starting with 4 seam and then 2 seam, change and later into there life the curve.

I have not seen the daddy taught curve in a long time to a young player.

That's how we do it here too.
Interesting discussion we had, in pre high school, 10U pitcher curveballs.

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High School maight be where players are learning to speak for themselves but I don't think the process is complete and after high school they might be on their own but I bet most still need an opinion from time to time.

Absolutely. I've given my son my opinion many times but at the same time he had to learn to think for himself and that his baseball playing was his experience, not mine. I threw in my 2 cents when I thought necessary but in the end, anything dealing with ball playing was between him and his coaches.

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I can't beleive many of the replies on this subject. So zombywolf how do you know your son's toughness was ever questioned, is that just your point or did you talk to the coaches at every game.
By the way I am not questioning his toughness just asking how you knew.

Fair question. No I never talked to his HS coaches at games so no, I can't say. However, even though he was primarily an outfielder as a varsity player, he was a catcher as a freshman thru junior year and played catcher as a little leaguer thru HS. As a former catcher, he took his beatings behind the plate and hung in there. That's why I say his toughness was let's say most likely was never questioned. If it were questioned, then those who questioned it are clueless knuckleheads so their opinion would mean squat anyway.