FC or Hit

I think it is scored correctly. If there would not have been a play at 1B then it is a hit. Only other option is possibly an error on the SS but based upon your recap of the play, that does not seem to be the case.

+1

Absolutely no error on ss, just a second or two of confusion by the SS and runner as neither knew were the ball was (ball was right next to the ss feet).

I had the same question a few weeks ago while scoring a game.  I referred to baseballreference.com. 

 

"A fielder's choice is a play in which an infielder attempts to make a play at a base other than first base on a ground ball. When scoring a game, a fielder's choice is indicated as FC.

The play is scored as a fielder's choice whether the attempted play is successful or not, so not all fielder's choices result in an out. An unsuccessful attempt to put out a preceeding runner is only scored a fielder's choice if the official scorer thinks that the fielder had a chance to retire the batter; if he tried for a preceeding runner because he couldn't get the batter, the play is scored a hit.

In scoring, FC is also used to account for various other ways in which a runner can advance. The most common use is when a runner advances an extra base on a throw from the outfield, e.g. when a batter who has just doubled advances to third on an attempt to retire the runner from first at the plate. It is also used to account for bases gained on fielder's indifference."

Thanks for the reply's.  My only issue with baseballreference.com is that it was a "successful" attempt to get the preceeding runner out.   But it was not a bang bang play, it was just a goofy slow developing out.  Plus the hitter was my kid and I don't want to be accused of playing favorites.  Head coach said hit after the game but initially said FC during the game.

       
       
That description though is not entirely correct.  Example being Pop fly, runner goes half way.  Batter runner already at first when ball drops in.  Outfielder picks it up and throws to 2nd forcing runner.  FC whether he had a shot at the batter runner or not.  This particular play is hard to comment on without seeing it.  I think it comes down to making a judgement of did the runner just hesitate an instant (FC) or did he truly wait for the play to develop and upon seeing the ball squirt away takes off for third (hit).

I have to disagree with this statement.  FC vs a Hit is not an absolute.  Also, a FC is an infield play.  The Fly ball to the OF would not be an FC.   Hopefully Stats will chime in. 

It's a FC.

 

The hit/FC decision doesn't always align with our sense of fairness.

 

You frequently see this issue with a runner on first on balls that would be infield hits if there were no runners on base. These apparent hits become FCs when an infielder regains his footing after a diving stop and makes a desperate, unsuccessful attempt to force the runner on second.  The futile attempt takes away a hit.  Doesn't seem fair, but that's how it's scored.

 

In this case, the runner may have made a poor decision and it may not seem fair to "punish" the batter, but the scoring rules are clear.

 

The SS fielded a ground ball and attempted a play at another base. That's all the information you need to call it a fielder's choice.  It doesn't matter if the attempt was successful. It doesn't matter where the batter runner was when the play was made. It doesn't matter if the SS hesitated or changed his mind.

 

I've always ruled the outfield ball that results in a force out on the bases  as a FC.  Not fair to the hitter but only way I see to rule it.

       
       
It is not an absolute in the case described bu original poster.  It is a absolute in scenario I mentioned.  Another example, a batter with lightning speed.  Men on 1st and 2nd.  Ball hit to the hole.  SS backhands and throws to third to force runner.  All agree there is absolutely no chance batter would have been out.  Still a FC.  Bases loaded, swinging bunt.  Slow runner on third fast runner at the plate third baseman charges and throws to the plate for the force.  FC regardless of no chance they could have gotten batter.  Bottom line even if the scorer may technically have the option of scoring some of these hits they won't.   That would open a can of worms.  Don't know what the official scoring rules are now for a pitching win but I know there was a time a scorer could award the win to any pitcher he wanted as the five inning thing was just a guideline.  But of course nobody did.  So sometimes its a matter of separating technicalities from reality.

Swampboy your going to think I'm an easy scorer but I've always indicated FC on an out or what should have been an out.  And than use judgement if the play on the runner does not result in an out.  Example hard hit ball at SS with runner on 1st moving on the pitch ss makes play to 2nd and runner is safe, I've always scored FC.  Ball in hole to ss and only play is to try for the force at 3rd but runner is safe I've always ruled hit.  I believe I'm following the rules reference by 2020dad.

A fly ball/pop up with runner forced at any base is a FC.

 

Like the original poster, I picture this as two plays within the same play. It is a judgment call, IMO. In my mind, it boils down to "did he have a chance to get the batter out" in this situation. If the 2b runner was lazy wandering back to the bag and the SS threw to 2nd and runner was tagged out, it still would be a hit.  It hinges on the fact that the SS did not have a play on the batter and wouldn't have even if the 2B runner had stayed on the bag.

As a pitcher's dad, I think you're a HARD scorer.  Pitcher induces a ground ball that turns a runner on second with one out situation into a runner on first with two outs situation--and you're charging him with a hit?

Redfish said it best, that this was two plays within one.  It is absolutely a FC if the runner takes off on contact and is tagged out on 3rd.  My dilemma came into play when the runner froze for a second and tried to read the play and the ss did a half circle trying to find the ball.  The runner decided to try to advance while the ss did not have the ball.  My determining factor was the delay in the runner trying to advance and that the play took so long that the hitter actually saw the tag out after reaching 1st base.

Lol Swampboy, my kid hasn't pitched since his freshman year.  Hitters dad!

Swampboy hopefully I keep some of the pitchers happy because I am a harsh error ruler (per other parents at least).  I rule an error on any ball hit at an infielder that should be an out, even if the ball is smoked.  I assume that routine and ordinary plays are for good players that they should be able to get in position to make the out.

       
       
High school?  I agree anything 13u and above should be ruled an error if its hit right at them I don't care how hard.

Agreed, but there are exceptions most rules.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RmXOZtNjOew

 

On the OP's play, sounds like the scoring in the OP is correct.  But if the runner was being forced, it's a FC for sure.

Originally Posted by Baseball stats:

Runner on 2nd, ball hit deep in the hole between 3rd and SS.  Runner on 2nd has normal lead and does not initially advance as he reads the play.  Ss dives and gets a glove on the ball, ball ends up near ss.  Runner on 2nd thinks the ball is trough and no one is covering 3rd.  He attempts to advance.  Hitter is at or near first base when runner on 2nd starts to advances. Runner is tagged out by the shortstop near 3rd base.  I ruled a hit and then an out on runner trying to advance.  I saw it as two separate plays.  Partial reasoning was the hitter was actual rounding 1st base and saw the tag out at third.  Am I wrong, should this be scored FC?

 

Forget everything else for a second and concentrate on the BIP. “Typically”, when I see a fielder have to dive or run a long way and not field the ball cleanly, if the batter reaches 1^st safely he’s gonna get credit for a hit. In the above description it sure sounds as though the batter’s gonna get a hit in my book. Now look at the runner and you have a PO for F6 unassisted.

 

This is a pretty good example of why I prefer scoring using “Project Scoresheet” than the standard scoring method everyone’s used to. Using that method of scoring, each at bat has 3 parts. What takes place before the play, the actual play on the batter, and anything that took place because of or after the play.

 

In my scoring program, here’s what would happen. There are only 2 choices on every BIP. Either the batter was put out or he reached. In this case he reached, so how he reached has to be determined. In this case I’d choose “Infield Hit”, choose where it was fielded as a G56, choose who fielded it as the F6, player ID# 608. That’s the play. Now for the “Afterplay” part. Runner with Player ID# 212 who was the 1^st batter, is put out going from 2^nd to 3^rd by the F6 Player ID# 608 on the 6^th pitch of that at bat.

 

It would look like the attachment.

 

Page 1 is the scoresheet, page 2 is the defense’s numbers, page 3 is the hitter’s numbers, and page 4 is the pitcher’s numbers, page 5 is what the program shows after the play.

 

As you can see, the 1^st batter draws a walk. When the 2^nd batter is up, the runner steals 2^nd on the 2^nd pitch.  Then, on the play for the 2^nd batter, he reaches on an infield hit between short and 3^rd fielded by the F6. After the play, the runner on 2^nd gets put out at 3^rd by the F6.

 

I used to think of these things as 2 separate plays too. The only difference now is, I see it as different parts of the same at bat, and it sure seems easier for me.

Originally Posted by Baseball stats:

Swampboy hopefully I keep some of the pitchers happy because I am a harsh error ruler (per other parents at least).  I rule an error on any ball hit at an infielder that should be an out, even if the ball is smoked.  I assume that routine and ordinary plays are for good players that they should be able to get in position to make the out.

 

The object isn’t to be harsh when compared to other parents/scorers, it’s to accurately record what takes place, harsh or not. Ruling an error on ANY ball hit at an IFer definitely isn’t something any scorer should do. Let’s say the corners are playing way in on the IF grass and the batter hits a bullet right between the F5 or F3’s legs. Personally, I’d no more charge them with an error than I would a pitcher on a ball hit right back at him. But that same shot at an F6 or F4 likely would be an error because they’re back so much further, and it would likely be an error on the corner guys if they were playing anywhere behind the bag.

 

Your assumption about good players should be able to get in position to make the out is a bad assumption. You should TRY to make all of your judgments relative to the AVERAGE fielder at that position, never the good or bad ones.

Have a different scenario same subject.

Runner on 1st

Batter hits a high chopper to third baseman.

Even with the high hop and waiting for ball to come down he still chooses to try to get the force at 2nd and is late. Runner is safe.

FC or hit?

 

Stats4gnats--Agree with you on ruling a hard hit ball back at the pitcher or drawn in corners.  My statement on a hard hit ball was in relation to normal playing depth and was a blanket statement which always has exceptions.  I struggle with your average player statement.  My son's highschool team plays in a conference with a lot of small schools that really are not that good.  If I use average player within the conference it would be a low average.  I feel at the highschool level you should be able to field balls hit at or near you.  If the player has to dive to try to make the play I'd normally rule a hit.

Everyday Dad - My ruling has always come down to my judgement if I felt the hitter would have been safe or out at first if the infielder would have tried to make the play at 1st.  If the runner was out at second it obviously FC.

I think I'm right on this but there is a difference of opinion even within this tread.

Got another one

Runner on 1st

Batter rips a GB inside the bag at 3rd down the left field line.

Throws comes in to third, with runner from 1st making it ahead of the throw STANDING UP.

Batter gets to second also.

Single or double for the batter?

 

E Dad, if fielder would have thrown to 2nd, would batter have normally been out? If so, single with advance on throw. If not, double. 

Nicely done.

Your example points out a logical inconsistency in the scoring rules.

 

In this example, the batter is awarded a double if he starts for second before the futile attempt to catch the leading runner at third. 

 

But when the same dynamic occurs one base earlier and in the infield, as in the OP, why does the batter not get credit for a hit when the attempt on the lead runner fails and the batter would have been safe if the infielder had tried to make a play on him?

 

Similar situations. In one case the batter gets credit for all the bases he reaches; in the other it goes as an FC and he gets no hit at all.

 

Why? I don't know. It just is. 

Originally Posted by Baseball stats:

…I struggle with your average player statement.  My son's highschool team plays in a conference with a lot of small schools that really are not that good.  If I use average player within the conference it would be a low average. 

 

Please don’t take offense at this because no offense is intended. Of course it’s the SK’s judgment whether something is a hit or not, but if you can’t grasp the concept of ordinary effort and apply it, you really shouldn’t be scoring.

 

OBR Rule 2.00 - ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.

Rule 2.00 (Ordinary Effort) Comment: This standard, called for several times in the Official Scoring Rules (e.g., Rules 10.05(a)(3), 10.05(a)(4), 10.05(a)(6), 10.05(b)(3) (Base Hits); 10.08(b) (Sacrifices); 10.12(a)(1) Comment, 10.12(d)(2) (Errors); and 10.13(a), 10.13(b) (Wild Pitches and Passed Balls)) and in the Official Baseball Rules (e.g., Rule 2.00 (Infield Fly)), is an objective standard in regard to any particular fielder. In other words, even if a fielder makes his best effort, if that effort falls short of what an average fielder at that position in that league would have made in a situation, the official scorer should charge that fielder with an error.

 

Let’s break this down so it will be easier to deal with. 1^st let’s look at league play. Generally, a HS team plays roughly half of its games against teams some “power” has decided should be playing as a league. Most of the time that happens based on football alignments, but it might be because of things like location or even private schools only. At any rate, that’s the “league” mentioned in the 1^st part of the rule. I’m pretty sure it’s safe to say that student body size is most often the factor used.

 

Remember, OBR is a set of rules aimed at professional baseball. The 2^nd part, “classification of leagues” is aimed at the different levels of affiliated professional baseball, with ML being the highest level, followed by AAA, AA, A, and rookie leagues. OBR is also applied to any unaffiliated pro ball that uses unadulterated OBR. The closest analog in HS ball is a divisional breakdown, almost universally centered around student body size.

 

Divisions in this state happen to be DI thru DVII, in FL they’re Class 1A thru Class 8A, and they could be just about anything. But the idea’s still the same, they’re classifications of leagues. What that means is, you need to develop the “average” player standard for the classifications of leagues and that standard can be applied to any games where the two teams are in the same classification.

 

Unfortunately though, most teams will play at least some regular season games against teams from a different classification. Here’s what happened to our team this year. We’re one of the poorest DI teams in the state, and when we played league games or other DI teams, we pretty much got our asses handed to us. But, while we played 15 DI games, we also played 5 against DII teams, 4 DIV teams, and 2 DV teams. Our fielders really looked poorly in the DI games because the standard was higher, but they looked a lot better in the other games because the standard was lower. That sounds like a big PITA, and it is, but it has to be done if you want to adhere to the spirit of the rules.

 

What it means is, a ball that gets charged as an error in a league game where the average player is a lot better, may not be in another game where the average players isn’t as good. It’s not as though there’ll be 10 errors in one classification and there wouldn’t be any errors in another one. It’s just that you have to keep in mind what “average” is and apply it as best you can. But no matter what, you can’t come up with some standard you believe is right and apply it to everyone in every case.

 

I feel at the highschool level you should be able to field balls hit at or near you.  …

 

The trouble is, HS baseball is very wide ranging skillwise. Fr, JV, as well as V teams are all high school teams, but you’d have to be some kind of fool to score a DV Fr game using the same standard as if it were a DI V game. Every season I try to score games for both the Fr and JV teams in order to get a “feel” for what the average is. I’ve found when I don’t do that, I start using the boys I see the most often as the standard, and that’s just wrong.

 

All I can say is, I really think you need to reconsider how you set your standard. You’re not helping or hurting anyone by treating all HS teams equally when it comes to scoring.

 

Good luck and keep doin’ your best.

Really? I always thought that if the batter would have been, in the judgment of the scorer, safe at first, the batter does get a hit if the lead runner is safe. Quoting from the baseballreference.com excerpt posted above by 2020dad: 

An unsuccessful attempt to put out a preceeding runner is only scored a fielder's choice if the official scorer thinks that the fielder had a chance to retire the batter; if he tried for a preceeding runner because he couldn't get the batter, the play is scored a hit.

The way I've always scored it is: (1) if the fielder tries for the lead runner, but the batter would have been safe at first if the fielder had gone to first, it's a hit if the lead runner is safe, and a fielder's choice if the lead runner is out; (2) if the fielder tries for the lead runner, but the batter would have been out at first if the fielder had gone to first, it's a fielder's choice regardless of whether the lead runner is out or safe. So:

 

	Batter Would Have Been Out at First	Batter Would Have Been Safe at First
Lead Runner Safe:	Fielder's Choice	Hit
Lead Runner Out:	Fielder's Choice	Fielder's Choice

 

Is this not correct?

2019Dad,

 

You’re exactly right. Some scorers don’t do it that way, but they’re the lazy ones who don’t actually read the scoring rules or try to understand them.

Since we're discussing rulings...I absolutely cringe when an individual makes the statement that "if it hits his glove its an error".  Really, since when? 

 

Stats,

Having followed many of your posts, I have to say that I really appreciate the way you handle your business!

2019dad-correct scoring in my book

SCORING:

1st, if every school had a STATS, it would be great and you could rely on accurate reporting and compare apples to apples.

 

For me, a rocket line drive that a fielder gets the tip of his glove on should be a hit.

 

A regular or slow grounder right through the fielders legs should be an error in my book, regardless if the 3b touched it. (happened twice in last game and they wrote hit).

A hot smash may be different.

Fielder's choice is obvious on grounders to SS, 2b or 3rd where they get the lead runner as stated above.

 

Of course, at schools around here, there is nonsense where favorites are marked 4-4 on standard fielder's choices and real errors (dropped pops) etc. are "doubles".

I suppose if they cannot do it right at least give every player on a team the same treatment, either way. Kind of like getting an HS umpire who was at least consistent in calls/zone for both teams even if his zone was unreal.

This is a poor solution but better than what happens currently.

 

A local scout had a funny line Sunday at a pre-draft event

"Based on how it is kept around here, maxpreps is useful... for printing out and blowing my nose in it"

 

Stats4gnats-Our team coach looks at the standard stats but is not a major influence in his game decisions.  He's more concerned about OBP, first pitch strike %, hitter contact rate, spray charts and similar stats like that.
The newspaper will use home team stars for game summary.  Individual players will use for their baseball resumes.  And the coaches will use for their recommendation for All-Conference and All-State.  That last sentence is where your definition of average player gets confusing.  We are the biggest school in our conference and are a division up in classification from all other conference teams.  So the typical average player in conference is of lower ability to that of the division that we play in for playoffs.  Using your definition I would almost have to have two sets of books; one for lower level all-conference recommendation and one for higher level all state recognition.  All said we are splitting hairs on average player, I would bet its no more than 5 plays in a 30 game highschool varsity season.

By the way I also hate the touched the glove call.  If a pitcher saves his life by getting his glove on a rocket back at him, it a hit not an error.  Or the outfielder that get a good jump on a ball hit directly over his head and his only play is to try to willie mays catch and the ball touches his glove before it hits the ground is a hit.  The 2nd basemen that lets the ROUTINE ball go through his legs because his glove was not all the down, is not a hit.

Two unwritten rules that I've tried to follow for years are:

 

An extra-ordinary play not made is not an error.

 

Another, to help keep me fair, is what would I've scored it if my son was batting/pitching.

 

These two unwritten rules have always helped me, IMO

 

 

Originally Posted by Baseball stats:

Stats4gnats-Our team coach looks at the standard stats but is not a major influence in his game decisions.  He's more concerned about OBP, first pitch strike %, hitter contact rate, spray charts and similar stats like that.

 

One of the greatest obstacles to understanding baseball stats is shown in what you said above. There’s no such thing as “standard stats”. The closest thing there is to a common understanding of what a “standard” stat is come right out of the rulebook.

 

OBR 10.21 DETERMINING PERCENTAGE RECORDS

To compute:

(a) Percentage of games won and lost, divide the number of games won by the sum of games won and games lost;

(b) Batting average, divide the total number of safe hits (not the total bases on hits) by the total times at bat, as defined in Rule 10.02(a);

(c) Slugging percentage, divide the total bases of all safe hits by the total times at bat, as defined in Rule 10.02(a);

(d) Fielding average, divide the sum of putouts and assists by the sum of putouts, assists and errors (which shall be called chances);

(e) Pitcher’s earned-run average, multiply the total earned runs charged against such pitcher by 9, and divide the result by the total number of innings he pitched, including fractions of an inning; and

Rule 10.21(e) Comment: For example, 91/3 innings pitched and 3 earned runs is an earned run average of 2.89 (3 earned runs times 9 divided by 91/3 equals 2.89).

(f) On-base percentage, divide the sum of hits, bases on balls and times hit by pitch by the sum of at-bats, bases on balls, times hit by pitch and sacrifice flies.

Rule 10.21(f) Comment: For the purpose of computing on-base percentage, ignore instances of a batter being awarded first base on interference or obstruction.

 

From those definitions come what’s commonly called the “slash line”. That’s BA/OPB/SlgP.

 

My best definition of standard stats is what you’d typically see if you went to a site like MaxPreps. Here’s an example of every possible category being used. http://www.maxpreps.com/high-s...9/baseball/stats.htm

 

And here’s a link to all the different ways the data can be viewed. http://www.maxpreps.com/leader...age/stat-leaders.htm

 

While some sites offer more and some less, MaxPreps is pretty typical. If you look at the different categories you’ll see not what Sabermatricians would find to be the “best” baseball stats, but rather what stats the typical baseball fan is familiar with.

 

So if we look at what your coach looks at, the very 1^st thing is one of the most standard stats there is in OBP. The other things you mentioned that he looks at are indeed not “standard” in the sense of being required by the rule book, but there’s a reason. There’s a requirement in the rulebook for scorers to keep track of certain things. There’s a batter/runner report, a fielder’s report, and a pitcher’s report, and all of the required percentages can be computed using the data created in the reports.

 

However, there are many things a lot of folks have come to believe are very important when it comes to analyzing the game, like the ones you mentioned. Trouble is, the information necessary to produce stats like those can’t be found in the various required reports. FI, it’s a little difficult to compute a 1^st pitch strike percentage if you don’t know how many 1^st pitches are strikes, or produce a spray chart if you don’t know where the ball was hit or whether it was a FB, GB, PU, or LD. In order to get the different kinds of data required to generate those other stats, the scorer is required to keep track of something not required, and therein lays a problem.

 

Because they’re not required by rule, there’s no standard way to track them. Unless a scorer notes which pitch was the 1^st pitch, there’s no way to even begin to compute a FPS%. After the 1^st pitches are somehow marked you’d think it was a cinch. Just divide the number of FPS by the number of ABs. But that won’t work because if a batter hits a sac bunt it isn’t an AB but there was still a 1^st pitch, so now you’ve got to use PAs.

 

That presents another problem. What about a batter that’s seen 5 pitches but for some reason doesn’t get to finish his PA, FI a runner gets picked off for the 3^rd out. That means the batter will lead off the next inning, but there will only be 1 PA for both. Then where there are rules such as in HS where the batter can be walked at any time, you have to be careful because there may or may not be a 1^st pitch.

 

So as you can see, there’re a lot of things going into computing even a simple stat like FPS%, and someone has to make sure they’re done correctly. If you use some kind of scoring program, hopefully it’s been written correctly and does it right, but if just a pencil and scoresheet is used it can cause some difficulty.

 

The newspaper will use home team stars for game summary.  Individual players will use for their baseball resumes.  And the coaches will use for their recommendation for All-Conference and All-State.  That last sentence is where your definition of average player gets confusing.  We are the biggest school in our conference and are a division up in classification from all other conference teams.  So the typical average player in conference is of lower ability to that of the division that we play in for playoffs.  Using your definition I would almost have to have two sets of books; one for lower level all-conference recommendation and one for higher level all state recognition.  All said we are splitting hairs on average player, I would bet its no more than 5 plays in a 30 game highschool varsity season.

 

Your conference isn’t at all what I’m used to seeing, but no doubt it happens many times across a very big country. But it really doesn’t make any difference from the perspective of what the average player is. Your conference is the same thing as a league, so when the scorer takes into account what “average” is, it’s the average for that league. It would help your guys because the bar would be lower than if they played in a league where all the schools are pretty much equal.

 

A scorer has absolutely no input in the process of award selection, other than to mark his book as best he can using the rules. It’s up to those who choose who the rewards go to to make the necessary judgments as to the value of any stats. “Typically”, its coaches who pick players for awards, and they should definitely understand how to properly weigh such things. In our case, for all league, coaches are supposed to only consider stats coming from league games.

 

You’re probably right about the differences not being very much, but sadly even 5 plays can have a pretty big effect on a HS player.