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I'm surely no pal of the NCAA, but there's too much smoke here for there not to be a fire. Helping "student/athletes" cheat academically is reprehensible and those responsible should be punished. But, giving up past victories, in my opinion, means nothing unless you can hurt them in their pocketbook. After all, that's what this is all about anyway, cheating to keep players eliblible so that they can help their team's win.
Sad in so many ways
music history course- Now there's a class most students in college take. Can you say the "the pampered athlete"
The cheating took place in football, baseball, softball, men's and women's basketball, men's and women's swimming, men's and women's track and field and men's golf.
When doesn't involve only one sport you have to think the entire Athletic program has dirty hands and it probably involves more than 1 class and 61 athletes. Where there's smoke there's fire.
The NCAA report says 61 Florida State athletes cheated on an online test from the fall of 2006 through summer 2007 or received improper help from staffers who provided them with answers to the exam and typed papers for them.
How can all those athletes live with themselves unless the cheating is an expected activity. I could see it happening with a few athletes but 61 in one class?
Wetherell said the school would seek clarification on vacating any wins as well as its appellate opportunities.
Wins?.........The elites won't share revenues, want to write the rules, but yet when they stink it up they affect the whole network of college athletics
music history course- Now there's a class most students in college take. Can you say the "the pampered athlete"
The cheating took place in football, baseball, softball, men's and women's basketball, men's and women's swimming, men's and women's track and field and men's golf.
When doesn't involve only one sport you have to think the entire Athletic program has dirty hands and it probably involves more than 1 class and 61 athletes. Where there's smoke there's fire.
The NCAA report says 61 Florida State athletes cheated on an online test from the fall of 2006 through summer 2007 or received improper help from staffers who provided them with answers to the exam and typed papers for them.
How can all those athletes live with themselves unless the cheating is an expected activity. I could see it happening with a few athletes but 61 in one class?
Wetherell said the school would seek clarification on vacating any wins as well as its appellate opportunities.
Wins?.........The elites won't share revenues, want to write the rules, but yet when they stink it up they affect the whole network of college athletics
quote:music history course- Now there's a class most students in college take. Can you say the "the pampered athlete"
Can you say stupid liberal arts requirements?
Hey, it ain't called Free Shoes University for nuttin'.
Does anyone know how this affects their baseball program? What does probation entail?
Too bad...when you think about all of the positive things that kids can learn through sports, they are taught to cheat instead (at least some of them).
I had to laugh at the comments above on the music history course, though. Their course must have been a heck of a lot easier than the one I had in college, but then mine was as a music major, as I was a double major in accounting and music performance. For music history, we had to study the major compositions of the major composers of the major musical periods (baroque, rennaisance, classical, etc.). Then for tests the prof would pull out records and drop the needle for about twenty seconds. We would have to name the composer and piece. One of the toughest courses I took in college.
I had to laugh at the comments above on the music history course, though. Their course must have been a heck of a lot easier than the one I had in college, but then mine was as a music major, as I was a double major in accounting and music performance. For music history, we had to study the major compositions of the major composers of the major musical periods (baroque, rennaisance, classical, etc.). Then for tests the prof would pull out records and drop the needle for about twenty seconds. We would have to name the composer and piece. One of the toughest courses I took in college.
casey, I don't doubt that your music history course was difficult. But you probably weren't asked to name the four Beatles!
quote:Originally posted by floridafan:
Does anyone know how this affects their baseball program? What does probation entail?
http://www2.tbo.com/content/20...q-fsu-case-chairman/
.
That's an easy one rosy...Leonardo, Michelangelo, Donatello, and Raphael.
That's an easy one rosy...Leonardo, Michelangelo, Donatello, and Raphael.
.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Big deal. Cheating.
What I want to know is...for '06 and '07...did they pay their taxes?
quote:Originally posted by rz1:
The NCAA report says 61 Florida State athletes cheated on an online test from the fall of 2006 through summer 2007 or received improper help from staffers who provided them with answers to the exam and typed papers for them.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Big deal. Cheating.
What I want to know is...for '06 and '07...did they pay their taxes?
Bobby Bowden was 1 game behind Paterno for lifetime wins, now he is down to 15 behind after taking away the wins that the offenders participated in.
Other message boards are reporting that FSU baseball will lose .33 of a scholarship from their 11.7 for 2008-2009. You can guess who really loses in that deal.
Other message boards are reporting that FSU baseball will lose .33 of a scholarship from their 11.7 for 2008-2009. You can guess who really loses in that deal.
quote:Originally posted by gotwood4sale:
That's an easy one rosy...Leonardo, Michelangelo, Donatello, and Raphael.
Here's an admission in life that I seldom share..........I went to the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle concert.
I'm not surprised. It's difficult to put SO much emphasis and importance on athletics, continually pushing the envelope without having incidents such as this happen. Of course we should blame the FSU staff, the athletes involved, the athletes that knew it was going on that said nothing and college sports in general --- but shouldn't we all accept part of the blame?
quote:but shouldn't we all accept part of the blame?
Fungo there are few posters I agree with MOST of the time, and you are one of them. However, if my son was caught in a cheating scandal I could never look you in the eye and say that you had anything to do with it, and I don't think you could do the same. I've tried to teach my kids that they are responsible for their actions so they should think before they leaped. If I were to put the blame on a generic scale, I would blame it on the football programs and their need to push the "rocks" through.
I know that your reference was in a "big picture" pov, but, when someone tries to blame an issue like poverty or education on me because I'm an American citizen, I will have to walk away because I've always thought for the most part you choose the bed you sleep in and if the first one is not comfortable, you do your best to find a better one.
quote:Originally posted by rz1:quote:but shouldn't we all accept part of the blame?
I've tried to teach my kids that they are responsible for their actions so they should think before they leaped. If I were to put the blame on a generic scale, I would blame it on the football programs and their need to push the "rocks" through.
I know that your reference was in a "big picture" pov, but, when someone tries to blame an issue like poverty or education on me because I'm an American citizen, I will have to walk away because I've always thought you choose the bed you sleep in.
Florida State safety Rolle wins Rhodes scholarship.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=3719726
quote:Florida State safety Rolle wins Rhodes scholarship.
OS8, there are exceptions to every rule.
IMHO, Rolle should have been the SI athlete of the year. Any athlete who performs on the field at that level and wins one of the most prestigious academic awards is "super special" in my book
quote:IMHO, Rolle should have been the SI athlete of the year. Any athlete who performs on the field at that level and wins one of the most prestigious academic awards is "super special" in my book
And IRRC, he earned his BS degree in 2.5 years so he had time to go back and work on a 2nd one while still playing football, didn't he?
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:
Of course we should blame the FSU staff, the athletes involved, the athletes that knew it was going on that said nothing and college sports in general --- but shouldn't we all accept part of the blame?
Provocative question! And I would have loved to see your facial expression as you typed it.
I do not feel as if I or we are part of the blame.What could we do to change it. And those art appreciation, music apprecition classes are not that easy. My sons taking art appreciation this semester, it satisfies a arts and humanities requirement.My son has to study a lot for that class and he is ata JC.
The blame falls on the schools not letting these kids get a real education,its telling them that sports are more impoortant than college.Howmany football players are taking fluff classes and never graduate from certain colleges, hoping they get into the NFL.
If thats how the program is ran, and kids go there, coaches allow it, do you think a kid is going to stand up against the whole system and say hey were all cheating.Maybe they were afraid of the consequences to that. Not making excuses but (Snitching) is unacceptable to this generation, I have seen it at the HS level. you do not tell on your friends,and it is sad because there are worse things coing on than cheating.
The blame falls on the schools not letting these kids get a real education,its telling them that sports are more impoortant than college.Howmany football players are taking fluff classes and never graduate from certain colleges, hoping they get into the NFL.
If thats how the program is ran, and kids go there, coaches allow it, do you think a kid is going to stand up against the whole system and say hey were all cheating.Maybe they were afraid of the consequences to that. Not making excuses but (Snitching) is unacceptable to this generation, I have seen it at the HS level. you do not tell on your friends,and it is sad because there are worse things coing on than cheating.
quote:I do not feel as if I or we are part of the blame.What could we do to change it. And those art appreciation, music apprecition classes are not that easy.
FOG,
Many times JC classes are harder than the "headliners" offer.
I would guess that with 60+ athletes taking the same class, that class was put in place specifically for athletes. That's BS, and insensitive to the after college careers of 99% of the athletes who will not play pro sports. They will have been short changed on the education that was promised them and their parents for the name of FSU athletics.
Exactly, I think I said somewhat the same thing. I blame the school.I guess thats true about classes being designed specifically for the athletes.My sons teachers are the opposite, a lot of them do not like athletes and try to not let them make up work or tests when they are gone.
My son had an assignment this week that was due before a test, now granted he waited until night before to print this packet, it was done, printer would not print it , so he spent 3 hours handwriting the entire packet, teacher refused it, so he then asked if he could send it to her as an attachment becasue he had it done(twice now) NO she said I dont take emails. So my son lost valuable points. She then reviews for a test, tells them this is what you need to know.My son knew everything she said they needed to know, comes test day he said the test was unrecognizable. My son did horrible, avg. score in the class 68%.And thats art appreciation. I dont think my son is appreciating art at this time LOL.
So lesson learned dont wait until night before to print it out, in case, some teachers give no grace at all,art appreciation is not an easy elective, and do not expect any exceptions to the rules with any teachers. Just an opposite example of the same type of class.
My son had an assignment this week that was due before a test, now granted he waited until night before to print this packet, it was done, printer would not print it , so he spent 3 hours handwriting the entire packet, teacher refused it, so he then asked if he could send it to her as an attachment becasue he had it done(twice now) NO she said I dont take emails. So my son lost valuable points. She then reviews for a test, tells them this is what you need to know.My son knew everything she said they needed to know, comes test day he said the test was unrecognizable. My son did horrible, avg. score in the class 68%.And thats art appreciation. I dont think my son is appreciating art at this time LOL.
So lesson learned dont wait until night before to print it out, in case, some teachers give no grace at all,art appreciation is not an easy elective, and do not expect any exceptions to the rules with any teachers. Just an opposite example of the same type of class.
How does one know that this class was designed specifically for athletes? Who is to say it was easy? If it was so easy, how come this happened?
I took music appreciation in college and I remember it being hard. I also remember that son was going to take a class in music appreciation in the spring and told that it was tough time to take it.
Not understanding the infinite wisdom of the NCAA. Impose the sanctions across the board but not sure the value of taking away the losses. I read on warchant that it amy have involved one baseball player, so the whole team has to be punished, the coaches record as well?
Don't get me wrong, I am not defending FSU, it's often referred to as the evil empire of the ACC.
Who else was aware that this was going on? Advisors, coaching staff, Athletic Director... then fire them all. Was it just athletes that benefitted? Were others involved who weren't athletes?
If a professor tells a student he can bring up his grade (to remain eligible) by completing additional work is that above board? Yes, unless all students are given the same opportunity. I'll bet this happens at more places then FSU. FWIW, many teachers and professors could care less who you are, maybe the exception is the football star. For some reasons, they do seem to get more chances to mess up than others. Mine saw this in his NCAA requirement class, on time for every class in the fall, some of the football guys came late, not a word. Of course his coach demanded that they be to every class on time, so not sure what other coaches do.
I taught my son from right from wrong, but not sure if he was "advised" that he could get help he would turn it down. I just don't know. I speak honestly.
What would your sons do?
Not sure of Fungo's statement but I understand the remark of placing blame. This is a BIG school with BIG donators and high expectations to win in every sport, year after year after year....obviously puts tons of pressure on everyone.
I took music appreciation in college and I remember it being hard. I also remember that son was going to take a class in music appreciation in the spring and told that it was tough time to take it.
Not understanding the infinite wisdom of the NCAA. Impose the sanctions across the board but not sure the value of taking away the losses. I read on warchant that it amy have involved one baseball player, so the whole team has to be punished, the coaches record as well?
Don't get me wrong, I am not defending FSU, it's often referred to as the evil empire of the ACC.
Who else was aware that this was going on? Advisors, coaching staff, Athletic Director... then fire them all. Was it just athletes that benefitted? Were others involved who weren't athletes?
If a professor tells a student he can bring up his grade (to remain eligible) by completing additional work is that above board? Yes, unless all students are given the same opportunity. I'll bet this happens at more places then FSU. FWIW, many teachers and professors could care less who you are, maybe the exception is the football star. For some reasons, they do seem to get more chances to mess up than others. Mine saw this in his NCAA requirement class, on time for every class in the fall, some of the football guys came late, not a word. Of course his coach demanded that they be to every class on time, so not sure what other coaches do.
I taught my son from right from wrong, but not sure if he was "advised" that he could get help he would turn it down. I just don't know. I speak honestly.
What would your sons do?
Not sure of Fungo's statement but I understand the remark of placing blame. This is a BIG school with BIG donators and high expectations to win in every sport, year after year after year....obviously puts tons of pressure on everyone.
quote:I taught my son from right from wrong, but not sure if he was "advised" that he could get help he would turn it down. I just don't know. I speak honestly.
What would your sons do?
Thats what I said earlier. I agree that its a tough situation if your the kid at school and everyone tells you this is how it is done.I think people would be surprised at the number of kids who would do it , if they were told to.
quote:Originally posted by fanofgame:
The blame falls on the schools not letting these kids get a real education,its telling them that sports are more important than college.Howmany football players are taking fluff classes and never graduate from certain colleges, hoping they get into the NFL.
Just like in most sports, most football players do not go professional. How do you know they all take fluff classes? That is an unfair assumption. JMO.
How many parents put more emphasis on sports over what they do in the classroom? Many. Then these players get passed through, and many can't keep up because they never had to from the beginning. Now ya got a problem. Who is to blame for the pampered athlete, many, not just the school.
I don't think son was a pampered athlete, if you didn't go to class, you got in lots of trouble with the coach. If you didn't keep up your grades, back in study hall. Most players on son's team understood that they were there for their education.
quote:Not understanding the infinite wisdom of the NCAA. Impose the sanctions across the board but not sure the value of taking away the losses. I read on warchant that it amy have involved one baseball player, so the whole team has to be punished, the coaches record as well?
Being at a school that is currently on probation for NCAA violations that occurred a couple of years ago regarding something about a coach helping a women's basketball player move or something like that...
They had a conference championship stripped away and an NCAA tournament appearance "didn't happen."
Now the athletic department here is facing additional sanctions for NCAA violations in the men's basketball program. This one gets even more wild-- there were multiple violations but one that I remember was that the coach observed his players while they were playing in the Rec Center during the offseason! He was a member of the Rec Center himself! In fact, I remember seeing him come in to work out on more than one occasion. Some of the NCAA rules are just plain stupid.
In our case, the women's coach was fired but nothing actually happened to him; just the program that he left behind. Now, our men's coach has been fired (late December 08) and the athletic director was fired (technically his contract expired in February 09) and they were both put on administrative leave way back in October. Meanwhile the President (who at a small school like this plays a pretty major role in the hiring of athletic department personnel) doesn't get into any trouble at all. Makes sense, huh?
quote:Just like in most sports, most football players do not go professional. How do you know they all take fluff classes? That is an unfair assumption. JMO.
This has been made an "athlete" issue, but really it is not. This is a problem University-wide at many schools but for the average student, nothing is said. We must remember these athletes are "student-athletes" and student comes first. Therefore, there are things that students are going to do that are not right. How can we expect these student-athletes to never do what a normal student can get away with?
This generation (yes I belong to this generation too) has as a whole grown up being given whatever they want. I'm not saying every single person is like that (I don't believe my brothers and sister or I were) but a large percentage are "babied" and that is going to create major problems now and in the near future.
quote:Tampa Bay Online Quote:
The NCAA said 61 Florida State athletes cheated on an online test from the fall of 2006 through summer 2007 or received improper help from staffers who provided them with answers to the exam and typed papers for them.
quote:tpm quote:
How does one know that this class was designed specifically for athletes? Who is to say it was easy? If it was so easy, how come this happened?
That was the 61 that got caught, how many other athletes did not get caught or took the class legit? Since we do not have all the "facts", who knows
Why did it happen...............Minimal effort, maximum gain from the FSU Athletic Dept. perspective. Lets do our best to keep em eligible.
I don't know about anyone else's kid, but I asked mine once if any teammates were in his classes and he said "not once".
quote:Bulldog 19 quote:
This generation (yes I belong to this generation too) has as a whole grown up being given whatever they want.
While I think your statement holds water in many areas, IMHO, education is not one of them. Most Universities require a student be in the top of their HS class for admission, unless your an athlete. I've always taken my hat off to those students because it took work on their part, during a very tempting portion of their lives to get to that status. Cheating does not come natural.
I see your point, wonder how many of them were football players. 
Will be interesting to see if they name the students, though I am not so sure I agree with that going public.
Some of these athletes do what they are told to do, not sure if the blame (at all) should be placed upon them.
The major D1 football programs in FL for years have been subject for years to hanky panky, though there have been great strides in cleaning the programs up over the past few years.
One of the very reasons why we felt these schools were not good for our player.
Some of these athletes do what they are told to do, not sure if the blame (at all) should be placed upon them.
The major D1 football programs in FL for years have been subject for years to hanky panky, though there have been great strides in cleaning the programs up over the past few years.
One of the very reasons why we felt these schools were not good for our player.
quote:Will be interesting to see if they name the students, though I am not so sure I agree with that going public.
Interesting. If one player is caught cheating and kicked off or suspended from a team that name is mentioned, why not 61 of them? Maybe the details are not disclosed but it is usually said as a "violation of team rules". While I believe in the concept of confidentiality, I still feel as though it is a breach of the contract they sign with LOI and they should be called out.
quote:Some of these athletes do what they are told to do, not sure if the blame (at all) should be placed upon them.
If they were told to jump off a bridge would they? If told to cheat would they? The only reason to cheat is if you did not do the work required to pass. No one should get a free pass here IMO
Florida State gets caught on a big time cheating scandal. USC had a professional football player in Reggie Bush. Some small time D1 is going to pay dearly for these transgressions. Someone has to be used as an example. The joke in Indiana was every time Lou Holtz (Notre Dame) violated an NCAA rule, Ball State was penalized to send a message.
I see two different issues that lead to these situations.
#1. Pressure.
When I suggest that we may all be to blame I do so because we all all guilty of putting a great deal of emphasis on baseball and classroom success. I think many of our sons are told (directly or indirectly) that failure is NOT an option --- EVER! They will do whatever it takes, except sacrifice (see #2) to succeed. Like TPM I taught my son right from wrong but also like her I'm not sure how he would handle this situation. You can rest assured that the majority of the 61 athletes will say they were taught right from wrong and were basically following the lead of the university. Failure is not an option and success at all cost attitude reminds me of the saying --- "Many who would not take the last cookie would take the last lifeboat".
#2. Personal sacrifice
Bulldog 19 bring up great points too. Many parents condition their children into believing sacrifice is not always necessary to achieve success. Many parents substitute "entice" and "reward" when teaching sacrifice and success. This should come as no surprise for this scenario mirrors today's society. Hard work and sacrifice are being removed from the equation and "success" is being "guaranteed" by those "in charge" whether it be a coach, an administrator a parent or a politician. The two greatest stimuli --- sacrifice and pain --- are removed from the equation. I see the problem but the solution eludes me.
Fungo
PS: Look at how "soft" the punishment is in this case. Their punishment isn't real it's just "perceived punishment" wins, trophies and scholarships. If you wanted to really solve these types of problems you could fire those involved and ban them from NCAA athletics for life. That would induce a little pain and sacrifice into the solution.
#1. Pressure.
When I suggest that we may all be to blame I do so because we all all guilty of putting a great deal of emphasis on baseball and classroom success. I think many of our sons are told (directly or indirectly) that failure is NOT an option --- EVER! They will do whatever it takes, except sacrifice (see #2) to succeed. Like TPM I taught my son right from wrong but also like her I'm not sure how he would handle this situation. You can rest assured that the majority of the 61 athletes will say they were taught right from wrong and were basically following the lead of the university. Failure is not an option and success at all cost attitude reminds me of the saying --- "Many who would not take the last cookie would take the last lifeboat".
#2. Personal sacrifice
Bulldog 19 bring up great points too. Many parents condition their children into believing sacrifice is not always necessary to achieve success. Many parents substitute "entice" and "reward" when teaching sacrifice and success. This should come as no surprise for this scenario mirrors today's society. Hard work and sacrifice are being removed from the equation and "success" is being "guaranteed" by those "in charge" whether it be a coach, an administrator a parent or a politician. The two greatest stimuli --- sacrifice and pain --- are removed from the equation. I see the problem but the solution eludes me.
Fungo
PS: Look at how "soft" the punishment is in this case. Their punishment isn't real it's just "perceived punishment" wins, trophies and scholarships. If you wanted to really solve these types of problems you could fire those involved and ban them from NCAA athletics for life. That would induce a little pain and sacrifice into the solution.
Don't know about FSU and the alleged antics going on there.
Personal experience in Northern California D1-
Baseball-2.5 & above no supervision.
Academic Advising (study hall-BASEBALL)
Have a 2.5 or higher or be in study hall until you climb over that, progress towards degree- not fluff.
Monitored so closely, you are basically a study hall "rat". Making sure you stay on track. We like it.
Personal experience in Northern California D1-
Baseball-2.5 & above no supervision.
Academic Advising (study hall-BASEBALL)
Have a 2.5 or higher or be in study hall until you climb over that, progress towards degree- not fluff.
Monitored so closely, you are basically a study hall "rat". Making sure you stay on track. We like it.
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:
When I suggest that we may all be to blame I do so because we all all guilty of putting a great deal of emphasis on baseball and classroom success. I think many of our sons are told (directly or indirectly) that failure is NOT an option --- EVER!
I think failure is always a viable option, as long as failure is accompanied with effort. Handouts are not an option as that is essentially cutting corners and in todays world cutting corners will catch you down the road. Isn't the job of a parent to challenge our kids to put 100% toward something they REALLY want? My parents did the same to me and probably all the way through history that has been the idea. In this case I don't directly see the kids at fault alone, the school essentially said we want the 100% directed to the reason you are here and that's sports. We want you to forget the lessons your parents taught you and don't worry about letting them down because we'll pass you through. Just make sure your priorities are set in our direction.
Many parents condition their children into believing sacrifice is not always necessary to achieve success. Many parents substitute "entice" and "reward" when teaching sacrifice and success.
That's true Fungo but don't you think that those kids who get that coddling usually fail or burnout before college, regardless of the sport, and the strong prevail? There comes a point where talent is the measure and that cannot be bought.
The two greatest stimuli --- sacrifice and pain --- are removed from the equation. I see the problem but the solution eludes me.
I think it starts at home, then moves out to the groups associated with that persons goals, and this is why I can't feel responsible for those 61. The student is to blame for not providing the effort in the correct direction, and FSU is at blame for allowing and providing "outs". While this incident involved 61 students at FSU, I would rather think that they are the exceptions to the rule and the 90% of student athletes at all schools are doing it the right way.
In the end Fungo you are probably correct in saying that there is a social flaw somewhere here, but I wonder if that flaw has always been there but with the greater stress of succeeding in today's world the flaw is now more pronounced.
Are we all to blame?
Maybe not all of us, but there are enough of us that place the athletic success above academics.
If we are a fan of a certain college or professional team would we rather that team recruit or sign the best player/athlete in the country or the better person/student?
Granted both would be important, but I think most people who are fans would pick the better football player over the better person. Just staying eligible would satisfy most fans.
How about the media? Academic all americans are usually listed in the fine print, while the top players/athletes are big news. ESPN Sports Center doesn't spend a lot of time recognizing good honest citizens who do everything right. However, they do spend most of their time covering the successful "athletes".
So, it might not be all of us, but I think there's a majority that will look the other way if someone is scoring lots of touchdowns or hitting lots of homeruns for "our" team. "We" don't pay to watch them perform in the classroom. ESPN and the newspapers don't send writers and reporters to the classroom. This all results in some bad people who become spoiled, rich and famous. Just check out professional sports. Did most of us have any idea how good a student or how honest OJ was back when he was being idolized? Now days "we" have borderline criminals doing commercials and endorsing products.
I just don't think each of us can take "we" as something too personal. I think when "we" is mentioned it's sometimes a result of what others try to shove down our throats.
The bigger question is... How can this kind of thinking be changed? It does seem to be a problem
Maybe not all of us, but there are enough of us that place the athletic success above academics.
If we are a fan of a certain college or professional team would we rather that team recruit or sign the best player/athlete in the country or the better person/student?
Granted both would be important, but I think most people who are fans would pick the better football player over the better person. Just staying eligible would satisfy most fans.
How about the media? Academic all americans are usually listed in the fine print, while the top players/athletes are big news. ESPN Sports Center doesn't spend a lot of time recognizing good honest citizens who do everything right. However, they do spend most of their time covering the successful "athletes".
So, it might not be all of us, but I think there's a majority that will look the other way if someone is scoring lots of touchdowns or hitting lots of homeruns for "our" team. "We" don't pay to watch them perform in the classroom. ESPN and the newspapers don't send writers and reporters to the classroom. This all results in some bad people who become spoiled, rich and famous. Just check out professional sports. Did most of us have any idea how good a student or how honest OJ was back when he was being idolized? Now days "we" have borderline criminals doing commercials and endorsing products.
I just don't think each of us can take "we" as something too personal. I think when "we" is mentioned it's sometimes a result of what others try to shove down our throats.
The bigger question is... How can this kind of thinking be changed? It does seem to be a problem
quote:Maybe not all of us, but there are enough of us that place the athletic success above academics.
Am I proud of my sons athletic success? Indeed I am. But, it take a distant second to the fact he went to college as a baseball player and came out with two completed degrees. He was not a student going in but his college challenged him to wear both shoes.
That could be the reason I am so stubborn and disappointed with the "athletic factories" disguising themselves as institutions of education. Blame it whoever, but the mirror is the first place to look and then the school holding the mirror.
Good post PG.
Ever read some of the sites like scout.com, or rivals on football recruiting?
It's all about how they perform on the field, don't think anyone cares how they did in the HS classroom. As long as they stay eligible, I agree, I don't think that many care. For many athletes, this is a chance to go play and get a degree they otherwise could not afford. Many are just eligible, and many times I am not sure if it is their fault or not because it is that way.
Does the NCAA try to do all it can to balance the fine line between best interests of the player and best interests of the school, when in essence, IMO, it should be there for the player. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they mess up terribly. It's such real BS many times.
We as parents care, because we all realize that life extends itself beyond HS, college and even professional sports. Most of these "fans" are just that, they really have no clue or care about the person as a whole, just how they perform. All they care about is who will be recruited that will win them games. You see this often on milb sites, so often they tear down a prospect and have no clue about them as a person. That's how fans are, some have no clue, JMO.
In the meantime, fans buy tickets to games, making fans happy brings in $$.
As far as athletic "factories", I don't like it either, but those factories provide what many players are looking for. Those "factories" also have incredible campus' and facilities. That brings in the players, that sells tickets and that makes those "factories" even more desirable.
Perhaps, mine attended one of those "factories". As parents we made sure to point out that factory had smaller enrollment, smaller classes and the first words spoken during the week were "how's school". I did my part, he did his part and stayed way above eligibility requirements. I have no regrets and not ashamed mine may have attended one of those "factories". It was great experience, great coaching, great place to go to get an education.
Ever read some of the sites like scout.com, or rivals on football recruiting?
It's all about how they perform on the field, don't think anyone cares how they did in the HS classroom. As long as they stay eligible, I agree, I don't think that many care. For many athletes, this is a chance to go play and get a degree they otherwise could not afford. Many are just eligible, and many times I am not sure if it is their fault or not because it is that way.
Does the NCAA try to do all it can to balance the fine line between best interests of the player and best interests of the school, when in essence, IMO, it should be there for the player. Sometimes they get it right, sometimes they mess up terribly. It's such real BS many times.
We as parents care, because we all realize that life extends itself beyond HS, college and even professional sports. Most of these "fans" are just that, they really have no clue or care about the person as a whole, just how they perform. All they care about is who will be recruited that will win them games. You see this often on milb sites, so often they tear down a prospect and have no clue about them as a person. That's how fans are, some have no clue, JMO.
In the meantime, fans buy tickets to games, making fans happy brings in $$.
As far as athletic "factories", I don't like it either, but those factories provide what many players are looking for. Those "factories" also have incredible campus' and facilities. That brings in the players, that sells tickets and that makes those "factories" even more desirable.
Perhaps, mine attended one of those "factories". As parents we made sure to point out that factory had smaller enrollment, smaller classes and the first words spoken during the week were "how's school". I did my part, he did his part and stayed way above eligibility requirements. I have no regrets and not ashamed mine may have attended one of those "factories". It was great experience, great coaching, great place to go to get an education.
quote:As far as athletic "factories", I don't like it either, but those factories provide what many players are looking for. Those "factories" also have incredible campus' and facilities. That brings in the players, that sells tickets and that makes those "factories" even more desirable.
There are plenty of incredible campus' and facilities in this country that do not fall under the "factory status". After thinking about it, maybe it's best for the college athletic community as a whole to pen all the hi-breds players in the same factory cages. They can have the media hype, pedestal sitting coaches, pampered athletes, and unscrupulous boosters if it allows the other college programs to focus on what the college student athlete is all about.
I know this may sound cynical but I've worked at a "factory" for 27 years and I know from the inside, not a parent, or fans view, what these athletic programs are all about. I've also have a good understanding of the mid-major mindset from a parents perspective. In the end, IMHO, I've concluded that the logo on the "factories" 50 yd line carries the weight and the rosters are nothing but pawns, and its up to those players to sense the difference between right and wrong in order to make the best out of "Wonderland". The program will do whats best for the program regardless of the casualties along the way.
Obviously there are problems at every level but it's sad that a minority of schools carries such weight, and instills the publics "bad taste", in a system that should be focusing on the student/athlete and not the bottom line.
Did that have an opinionated slant to it
btw- There are no personal shots fired here.
I do not take it personally, they exists that's a fact.
I just know my son went to one of those big schools, that somehow doesn't always get to the final dance in most sports year after year. One year because of pushing and shoving between their hated rivals the AD would not allow the football team to attend their bowl game, that meant lost revenue and some angry fans, and turns some of the better football and baseball players away because they haven't taken care of serious business in the classroom in HS. That's ok with me.
But son worked very hard in HS to get to go to one of those type of schools and he had a great experience and his coaches put just as much importance on winning in the classroom than on the field.
Was he pampered? Guess so, he didn't have to rake the field.
That worked for us, that worked for him.
It's something we and he thought about in the recruiting process, did our homework and felt that he would not be somewhere that it was all about baseball or being an athlete, half the time no one even knew who he was, he liked it that way and never used it to win friends, get better grades or impress anyone (not even females). In fact, those who taught him and baseball fans, were the toughest on him in the classroom.
Though not yet graduated, he walked away with 3.0+ and learned to balance his life, that is what is most important.
I just know my son went to one of those big schools, that somehow doesn't always get to the final dance in most sports year after year. One year because of pushing and shoving between their hated rivals the AD would not allow the football team to attend their bowl game, that meant lost revenue and some angry fans, and turns some of the better football and baseball players away because they haven't taken care of serious business in the classroom in HS. That's ok with me.
But son worked very hard in HS to get to go to one of those type of schools and he had a great experience and his coaches put just as much importance on winning in the classroom than on the field.
Was he pampered? Guess so, he didn't have to rake the field.
That worked for us, that worked for him.
It's something we and he thought about in the recruiting process, did our homework and felt that he would not be somewhere that it was all about baseball or being an athlete, half the time no one even knew who he was, he liked it that way and never used it to win friends, get better grades or impress anyone (not even females). In fact, those who taught him and baseball fans, were the toughest on him in the classroom.
Though not yet graduated, he walked away with 3.0+ and learned to balance his life, that is what is most important.