Good ball players need connected advocates

GREAT topic!  

First - your questions…which by the way, I 'evolved' on through two sons.  

Pay the money for a college camp or not?

Attend showcases or not, and if so, at what age?

Spend money on recruiting services or not?

Promote HS stats or not?

Join a top-notch summer team and travel to be seen, or not?

• Yes on college camp, but I'd be more selective than I was first time around.  I think I did a pretty good job 2nd time around.  
• Yes on showcases.  2 the first time around, 2 the second time…but a bit more "targeted" that time.
• No, did not and would not spend one cent on a recruiting service.
• Promote HS stats?  Just answer what you're asked.  I probably "promoted" them first time…less, much less second time.  Not sure I would at all if I did it again.  Virtually no one cared about them.
• Join a top-notch travel team?  Yep.  Did that twice.  Same one.  (NorCal Baseball if anyone is wondering).  If you can make a team like that, do it!

Quite honestly, with all of these questions I do think its important to do your level best to "target" the right solution for your son's abilities.  Example…younger son was NOT a power pitcher…5-11/86-87 mph RHP…we didn't even attempt national showcases…what would be the point?  Instead, we 'targeted' schools and venues that had a chance to 'showcase' his positives.

Advocates?  You bet!  But the single most important thing to us was not whether or not the 'advocate' would promote our sons…but whether or not they would give the very best advice to us.  An "advocate" to me implies someone who wants your son to succeed and if that is genuinely true…then they will tell you the truth about your son and help you to find the best targets for their talents.

My son has a few advocates, and they have definitely helped him. I firmly believe son would not have had the opportunity to go to the PG Jr. National without one of them, and the Jr. National really got things rolling for son.  

I've only recently found this site.  By the time I logged off this site for the first time I knew  that I'm going to be in over my head. I do have my sons best interests in mind.Unfortunately, I am terrible with networking.So when you see HELP!!!!! in four years or so and you want a project. Could you please help me with my son.We're going to need an advcoate.

                                   P.S. 

                                  I can't swim so I flounder alot

I will chime in here, this looks like it could be a long thread!

I think that paying the money for a college camp is an important thing to do and something that I failed at following through on. My son attended Florida State University camps at younger ages and was invited to a Coastal Carolina camp the summer before his Senior year (I think that is when it was). In hindsight I believe that not attending the camps in the year he was eligible to be recruited was a serious mistake. We relied heavily on Showcases and his Travel Team.

So, my son began attending smaller showcases like Blue/Gray and another one out of Orange Beach Alabama. These were good smaller events with limited visibility. He attended a PG Underclass his Sophomore year and the World Showcase with PG his Junior year. He was invited to the PG Pre draft in Iowa and attended it as well even though he had suffered a broken femur earlier in January and had just begun running, hitting and fielding about a month prior.

We put a lot of weight on his Travel Team as well and played Connie Mack ball with a high quality travel team his Sophomore and Junior year attending all the big tournaments and doing a long travel tour to D1 colleges throughout the south east, he was a left fielder on this team, the only team he ever played the outfield for. His Senior year he joined a new team where he was able to start in the infield and we made it down to the final 4 or 8 teams at Jupiter that year, hitting two home runs over 4 games or so.

We never really paid for a recruiting service although we did do a "do it yourself" website from "Getmynameout.com" which we enjoyed using and did provide some opportunities. I was pretty over the top back then so I included all his HS Stats and links to every newspaper article that mentioned him, we also included an infielding video and a hitting video. Like I said, I was over the top, but the infielding video got some positive hits and reviews.

In hindsight the only thing I would have done differently with my son would have been encouraging the college camps, the Coastal Carolina one in particular. And maybe not done the Australia trip, only because that was where he was injured. He enjoyed it completely otherwise.

But now to your main idea, finding an influential advocate.

When my son was a freshman in HS he had been receiving hitting lessons from a former pro player for about 4 years already (I know...over the top). By the time he entered HS I wanted to find him someone that could assist him in improving his fielding skills and I was referred to Denny Doyle. Denny worked with my son in ways that I had never seen before and his understanding of the game, his passion for the game, and his ability to connect with my son cemented in my mind that I wanted my son to work with this gentleman. After a few sessions I asked Denny if he would mentor my son throughout his baseball career (whatever that might be). He was surprised and did not know how to answer and indicated he would need to think about it. A few days later he called and said yes, that he would. That was 10 years ago and my son still sees Denny each offseason and the communicate in season as well. He has become a close friend to me over the years as well, providing me with a listening ear, and words of wisdom.

So yes, I believe that an advocate that has been there and done it is invaluable. Well worth the effort to seek out this kind of relationship for your son, if at all possible.

Justbaseball: "An "advocate" to me implies someone who wants your son to succeed and if that is genuinely true…then they will tell you the truth about your son and help you to find the best targets for their talents."

AMEN AMEN! When I say "find an advocate," I mean, as I said after: Develop relationships with baseball men." Not a talker!

I know there are many frauds out there. My son PLAYED for a couple when he was younger and I was to naive to know the difference. My point is, parents need to do their homework and find someone who is TRULY connected, and has a great reputation in this oh-so-small community.

THAT'S the advice I think many need to hear.

Floridafan -- guys like Denny are exactly what I'm talking about.

What good is all the rest without such people?

I know ... some will make it anyway, but when confronted with the question: What matters most after all the basics are in place?"

Guys like Denny.

jp24,

I am going to present a totally different but, perhaps, longer term perspective.

In retrospect, we did about everything wrong. However, coming out of HS in 2000, the information we received and relied upon was the Stanford Camp would open all the doors for our son. Heck, we barely got him in!  Even then, only one coach picked him out and said that "kid is a player!"

So let's move forward 13 years.  The D3 coach who picked out the "player" relished picking a kid who turned out to be pretty darn good. Not great, but very few pitchers on Team USA or in the top levels of Milb  ended up with the D3 kid over-matched.

To move forward, the best, most generous and tenacious advocate for our son in the world of college baseball is that D3 coach.  Just this Summer, he opened a door for a college program looking for a pitching coach...which our son IS NOT.  After 3 hours with the Head Coach, our son had a position as the "hitting coach" with  the head coach deciding to move toward the pitching side.

In retrospect, we probably did many things "wrong" when it came to recruiting and finding an advocate, especially the right advocate.  Despite that, our son played through to find he has a number of advocates including those who coached him college,  in Milb and with whom he has coached in college ball, including one who has a very nice CWS ring for 2013, worn proudly.

In our view, an advocate can be so helpful, if you can play.  For those who have trouble finding an advocate, the play at college level and above will attract advocates.

For our son and family, he has a D3 coach who is generous and tenacious beyond all expectations as our son attempts to keep a career in baseball, just not as a player.

Inspiring story, infielddad, and if your son is happy and achieving his potential, that's all any of us can hope for. Kudos.

It's tempting to assume my son's situation is unique. but I don't believe it is. He has several very well-connected baseball men coaching and advising him: Men on speed-dial relationships with college coaches and high-level MLB scouts.

There are a LOT of men like that out there.

But it took work on my part, when I realized he had the skill level, work ethic, grades and mental toughness to go to the next level ... to find those men.

And that's what I think parents of boys with potential need to hear.

Through the rear view mirror, we have some different perspectives. Not right, just ours, with a recognition there can be many others.

What our son has created is a group who might not be on speed dial, for the short term, but who have stuck by him, for a very long period.  That actually was the point of my post....I don't underestimate the importance of talent and advocates of that talent in the way recruiting happens today.  Cultivating relationships which work over the longer term with someone who advocates over the longer term might be at least as important as what I envision by "speed dial."  I readily admit this might not be right for most, but we believe that long term relationships  can be quite important in and out of baseball.

Reading the responses in this thread, I can see where an advocate could facilitate things for a young man.  My take is different however and not because I disagree with what anyone has said.

The only advocate my son had was me.  The only person I advocated him to was him.  That is the way it has always been between us two.  Him and me.  He had the dream, the ambition, and the ability.  I did everything in my power to help him.  He's since developed some advocates along the way but we are finding out now the most important advocates are those with decision-making capabilities in an organization.  It's nice to have someone say you have a future in the game and advocate as such.  It's even better when a decision maker comes to that same conclusion. 

JP outstanding post. Many on the recruiting carousel don't realize how important this is. "Just go to a camp or event and be seen and they will call" could be further from the truth. Frankly before your son gets a call probably a half a dozen others have been contacted about you or your son. 

My son's contact list had of course his HS coach, in addition, two travel ball coaches, a scout team coach who was a major league scout (plus his staff of 3 other coaches on this team), two other major league scouts, (one as a result of going as a "pick up player" on a PG team at a PG tournament, an agent who was connected to untold scouts, three different pitching coaches, two of whom played in the bigs, Alan Jaeger and Jim Vatcher, two coaches from the local JC, Nate Trosky (one of my favorite guys who I hardly know), who ran a college camp talked to him and later referred him to a program and invited him to a couple of "unsigned" events, and I am sure I missed a few others.

He (and I) fostered these relationships on his baseball journey so he was likely referred many times before he ever knew it. By the time a college coach got to him they most likely had talked to one or several of these individuals first. His reference list he sent out included the highest profile of these contacts, He received a Area Code invite when neither of us knew what an "Area Code" was. (sorry Bob ) 

So as  JP, JH, infielddad and others have pointed out, contacts and relationships are HUGE and REQUIRED to have by the time you get to the actual recruiting period, which frankly is a pretty short period of time. I see people come here and ask "how do I find a major league scout", etc,  well if you have been involved in the level of baseball needed to play in HS and beyond you should have these contacts by the time your son gets to be a Soph in HS. 

Great thread, Golden for sure. 

Son went to several local college camps cold. Guess it depends on position they play. He went and because of speed in 60 gets noticed, esp for little guy. he's always top 5 even in group of 100 or more. Means nothing except they will look at you for one moment in time. It's your one shot to do well, or be passed over. He pitched and caught attention of 4 diff D1 schools, and one D2. Two offers so far and two visits from others and they want to see him pitch in games. One has contacted Summer coach and they have a good relationship, so he has become sons advocate. So many diff ways to be seen/recruited IMO. Some get seen at PG tourn, camps, showcases, or local summer tourn. You never know who will be there watching, either another teams player, or yours. Spend money wisely. Find schools son is interested in and get yourself in front of their coaches-by camps, sending email/schedule,etc. don't just expect to show up and play and have coaches all run to you w offers. Unless your P throwing 90's at East Cobb chances of that r slim. 

JP,

Great topic for a thread.  While I believe an advocate is incredibly important, it would not be THE first thing on my list.  It is up to the recruit to have a plan and a goal before an advocate can help.  Too often we get posters who flounder because they don't know what they want.  We try to explain options, and they get wrapped around the axle on something that is minor.  There has to be a big picture or at least goal in mind to get started.  Do people change goals?  Sure, all the time but you have to put a stake in the ground somewhere.

In your example, you mention an acquaintance who is struggling.  I'd be real curious to know what their plan and goal was.  Some people have baseball as their "end", and others see baseball as a means to a different "end".  In my experience, this has to be very clear before an advocate can genuinely help.  We were fortunate to have multiple advocates and they clearly understood my son's goals but struggled at times (along with us) how to best help him.  These are baseball men who have a vast network of other baseball people and college coaches.  Because my son was able to clearly articulate his goals could his advocates begin to help as best they could.  JMO

Great thread.

I agree with JP & Fenway.  

On the 1 hand networking (which is how I interpret advocating) is vital.  Definitely an important starting point.

But Fenway is brings up an important point.  Players must have plans in place.  Sometimes your network only gets you so far.  College coaching has very high turnover & movement.  The guy you had a relationship at X school for the last 5 years may leave.  The 25 year old that takes over may not know or trust you at all.

And no matter how big your rolodex is, there is no way to know everybody.  Ever wonder why some travel & hs programs seem to send all their guys to the same 4 schools?  Thats the extent of their network.  Works great if the kid is a good fit.  But what happens when a kids best fit is outside their coaches network?

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

Great Thread.

My son has played with a great player on 5-6 different teams.

This other player's dad has had a hard time finding a coach that 'believes in his son'. (to quote him) and calls schools on his behalf, etc.

Our son has been blessed with such a coach

(ex professional who has played with or against a coach at almost every D1 school our son has spoken to)

who goes out of his way to promote our son, calling schools and following up on camps and showcases for in-depth feedback.

Worth his weight in gold. 

Son has not attended any camps where they did not specifically invite him on the phone and had expressed interest.

Not all led to continuing discussions (but many are ongoing and positive).

Agree, we have learned it is difficult to attend a camp or showcase "cold' and expect lots of attention.

If your advocate calls prior to the camp and gives a heads-up, 'Good Housekeeping' seal to a player, scouts will pay attention.

College Camps our son attended this fall had as many 150 kids,

had he not been on the radar beforehand, it may have been difficult to get attention without for example - hitting multiple homers.

Same at a 450-600 person showcase,

they seem to have a list and you get attention if you were on it Before the event.

Son has developed a plan as well.

This process requires a multi-faceted approach as PIS and other say.

PS_ we would also do a few things differently if we had a Stewie Griffin time machine

To me, this is all part of his travel team's coaches' job.

We view the Virginia Cardinals as a recruiting program.  A big part of that program is preparing to play, and then playing.  But all the things you're talking about, we do for our guys.

My advice is, if your travel coaches aren't doing this for you, you are on the wrong travel team.

I would also add:

In many cases, players and their parents do indeed get all the help they need.

And yet, so many of them insist on questioning the input they get from more experienced voices, or even insist on ignoring it because it wasn't what they wanted or expected to hear.

I wonder about the player 2 years older than the OP's son.  I've known kids like that, who profess bewilderment, but then you find out that they had people who laid it all out for them and they couldn't find it in themselves to trust sage advice.  Instead, they start looking at every ad, every e-mail solicitation, etc., until their heads are spinning.

What is it that leaves so many people wired this way?  That they prefer to walk around in a constant state of drama, to having a clear path ahead of them? 

I suspect is has something to do with our growing social pathology of needing all sorts of attention at all times, but maybe that's too harsh.

Midlo, I think your perspective about questioning is so accurate.

I think there is a different context to it, also.  When any player has an advocate, there are few things worse than recruiters and potential coaches listening to the advocate followed by player/parent interactions which leave the coaches wondering if they just talked to the wrong player/parents.

When any player or family has an advocate who takes a risk and reaches out on their behalf, the player needs to understand the risk which is taken and exceed all expectations created by the advocate. 

This issue is very prominent in Summer Wood Bat leagues.  College coaches put their credibility on the line with GM's. GM's rely on the coach to send players who will work hard in an effort to reward the GM's 10 months of very hard work with about 60 days of hard work and dedication for that team and the Community where they are playing.  When the player/parent ends up grumbling about having to compete, not enough playing time, the weather, the living facilities, the travel or any number of things, and especially if they leave early or clearly dog it on and off the field, that college coach hears about it from that Summer team. That player not only hurts himself, he hurts and impacts opportunities for the next group of players that college staff is trying to place.

If the player exceeds all expectations as a player and team player, that college coach and the next group of players have many more options and doors open for them.

The message is players and parents place the advocate in a challenging position when the player, parents or both deliver below expectations and blame everyone and everything but themselves.

I am not sure what needs to be discussed,  I think it pretty much is assumed the its not always what you know but who you know.

The thing is I don't have to post on a message board to tell people who son knows, what important people he is associated with in baseball, etc. etc.

I strongly agree with CD, no one should be bigger an advocate for your son than you the parent, everything else is just icing on the cake. You can have all the advocates you want, but if they are not the decision makers,  it all really doesn't mean much in the end. Oh and if your son gets hurt, watch those advocates run in the opposite direction. Not that was the case for son, but it happens ALL of the time, some guy is hot on your son and he gets hurt and the phone stops ringing.

There is a difference between an advocate and a mentor and having connections. Don't confuse them.

The two most important people in my sons life were the coach who coached him (I can relate to infielddad's post) and saw him everyday, for 3 years at college and the second most influential was his HS travel coach ( I can relate that to Midlo's post), as without him he would have never met the college coach who I am talking about.

I agree with Midlo, if you do not have a travel coach who will help your son get to the next level, then find another, because there is NO BIGGER ADVOCATE (if that is what you want to call it) then the people who get you seen in front of the right people.

Not everyone can be connected with people on speed dial to XYZ university or MLB scouts or brass. Or make a call to tell a coach he is coming to camp.  If your son is good enough, he will get noticed, regardless of who he knows.  More importantly, everyone should have a coach that is more interested in getting his kids to the next level, rather than more money in his pocket.

JMO

You're right, Fenway. It's not realistic to expect someone to put their reputation on the line for a player who hasn't thought through his own future clearly. So ... assuming all the tools and attitude stuff, that does come first.

But by itself, as you indicate was the case with your son, it's not enough.

Let's say a player's mom or dad has absorbed the accumulated wisdon of the HWBBW, and their son has a plan: He has his sights set on D-1 Universities A, B, C and D. He makes himself known to the coaching staffs through emails, letters, etc. and is invited to attend one of their camps. He and his parents likely assume the school is at least marginally interested, and they may well be. Or ... they may not be, but they still figure he'll fill a camp slot.

If that same player has a relationship with a baseball insider, so to speak, who knows and is respected by those coaches, and that person talks with the coaches about the player ahead of time, the player can make a more informed choice about whether to attend or not.

Point is (and I know you get this), I think even players with clear visions need reputable baseball men who communicate on their behalf. It's just that danged important.

TPM - you raise a good point.  At the end of the day, guess who is going to PAY for college? Not the "advocate" I can promise you that.  

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

TPM: "I am not sure what needs to be discussed,  I think it pretty much is assumed the its not always what you know but who you know."

I couldn't possibly disagree more, but that's OK. You keep giving the advice you give, and I'll suggest to parents that once their son has a plan, he should try to develop relationships with baseball men.

And maybe ... just maybe ... it will help.

No kidding!

JP,

You bring up a good point in your topic, but your scenario above may be unrealistic, there are very few who have people in their lives that know important baseball people.

The HSBBW is a good resource for asking questions, you will get great advice here and one doesn't need an advocate for that advice from parents, players, coaches who have been there and done that.

No one is suggesting that having baseball men in there lives is not important, I used the examples for son of two such people.

Your son is very talented, not all players have the skills he has, and will not attract the people he needs to make those phone calls.

But a good coach who knows how to get kids recruited is worth his weight in gold!

TPM: "... there are very few who have people in their lives that know important baseball people."

I'd venture to say almost none do, until they seek them out.

And come on, Rich. Really?? THAT'S a valuable insight? Thanks for clearing that up.

Not that a talent like this needs an advocate, but here's a nice article about one of the absolute nicest, most humble prospects I've ever met. He's a perfect example of a player that's easy to root for and to whom people gravitate. Attitudes and work ethics like this stand out, and often times separate people from the crowd. For Rob, who is enormously talented, it shows. http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl...mlb&ymd=20140127

JP -  My point being that while, as stated at the top of the thread, having a strong network is very important, I would not rely solely on them.

I have personally seen families put 100% trust in their advocate, only to be led down the wrong path for their kid.  Simply because that "advocate" was feeding a player to a coaching buddy instead of putting the kids needs 1st.

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

Rich - if you ever see me say to someone "Put 100% of your son's future in the hands of someone else" .. or "Rely solely on an advocate," you have my permission to hunt me down and flatten my tires.

If know I didn't say that, and I don't think I implied it, but to be clear ... absolutely not.

JP - 

I don't think I implied that you did.  This fantastic thread was laying out very strong evidence supporting a strong network and good advocates.  

I just wanted to make sure to play a little devils advocate to be sure that no one puts all their eggs in 1 basket.

Pretty sure everyone is on same page.  Someone above put it well… its not always what you know, but who you know.  But sometimes what you know is important!

So, won't be hunting you down any time soon.  Too cold and snowy to leave the house anyway.

Rich

www.PlayInSchool.com

JP - I believe we're on the same page here.   There is no question that my oldest son received a lot of help from his advocates (former coaches) to both what he sought and to what he did not seek.  Many doors were opened because of their efforts, and our own efforts.  They were an invaluable resource through the whole process.

My oldest son attended a handful of recruiting camps and skills camps.  We got far more traction & attention from the colleges that knew about him through his advocates.  Some of those led to offers.   In the end, it worked out very well for him.   Recently, my youngest son has begun the recruiting process.  We're very fortunate to already have some strong advocates  for him as well.  My youngest son's plan and goal will be vastly different than my oldest son.  The use of advocates will be just as important.

Mentor, I think this is what can be the most helpful. Other than parents, this usually includes a coach, instructor, or someone else involved in baseball.

Advocate, I like to think we are among the very best advocate any player could have. However, it is not up to us, it is up to the player.  We are no good at a being an advocate for those that don't have the necessary talent.  Jameson Taillon, (Pirates first rounder and top prospect) went to a winter time event.  We raved about him and by the time he got back to Texas his email and the family phone was bombarded ny messages from agents and scouts. You could say we were the advocate, but it was his talent that was obvious.  But as far as being an advocate we have the ability to reach a large number of people that make decisions on players. Then again, I'm not sure we are advocates at all.  Guess it depends on how you define advocate.  I'm fairly certain that Nick Gordon and his dad Tom, Flash, who had a long productive MLB career, consider us a very good advocate. But far more important is Tom, the dad, the Mentor!

I'm not tracking with you, PG. A mentor mentors -- meaning advises, counsels, even coaches. But an advocate puts his reputation on the line on behalf of someone else. There's a huge difference.

Even Perfect Game listens when people they trust tell them about ball players they need to see, don't they? That's certainly been our experience, and it's a good thing. Of course PG does its own assessment -- just like any college or pro team does. But when someone you trust suggests you check someone out, I reckon it's different from hearing it from a parent.

As to your point regarding it being up to the player, I thought I was clear up front: None of this matters absent the skills, work ethic, grades and mental toughness to go to the next level.

jp24,

I understand you are looking at the advocate as an individual, in most cases someone closely associated with the player.  Yes, that can be very important, depending on who the advocate is.

Many of us are advocates of certain players even without the personal contact.  Our reputation is also on the line. In fact, because the message we send reaches such a large number of people, our reputation is always at stake.

I know we are talking about two different things here. I do agree with your thoughts. Having the right advocate can make all the difference in the world.  It just makes a huge difference if that advocate happens to be someone locally that has a small reach or if it were someone like a David Rawnsley who can reach pretty much the whole baseball world with his message.

My only point is... Having an advocate is very important. Having a mentor is very important.  Sometimes these two are one and the same.  However, just like players, coaches and umpires... All advocates are not the same. I think you have said the same thing

Anyway, good topic, and an important one IMO

Dang it feels good when misunderstandings and misinterpretations are cleared up in online forums! Thanks, PG.

At the risk of muddying the waters again, I'd state it this way: Organizations like PG can and do play a huge role advocating on behalf of ball players. That's the business they're in, and people listen. Many players go on to greatness with that support alone. But having someone who is connected with organizations like PG, and colleges and the pro's ... can be hugely important, too.

That's the advice I gave that dad I mentioned in my OP, and will give to other parents searching for information. So in sum:

- First, make sure your son has what it takes by getting unbiased input.

- Second, make sure he has a plan.

- And third, put him on the radar of people who make things happen; ideally through personal relationships ... but leverage PG, too.

I'm with PG on this topic.  Mentor to me is the correct term.  I will add like anything else with your childern, parents are there to do the homework, build relationships and provide guidedance.  The end result finding the best fit for your son.  We cannot expect the son to do this alone.  Reach out, do your homework and you'll be fine.

For me, by the time my son was a on the Majors in Little League, he was already a better baseball player and knew more about the game (in many ways) then I did. I never played the game in any organized fashion. I never played with more that 3 or 4 kids at the same time, and we would rotate out of the field to hit.

So early on I sought the best help I could find for my son. Eventually, it seemed like a good idea to find him a person that could be a mentor and provide insight and wisdom as well as help refine his skills.

It was the best idea, regarding baseball and my son, I ever had.

Mentors are great to have in many areas. We r talking sports here, but there is a highly competitive Academic world out there. i've seen the top % academic kids competing against each other for valedictorian and scholarships for college. You think some sports parents are involved, this group is just as competitive. Nice to have mentors who have knowledge guide you in the right direction.