Hanover (V) 3
Cox (H) 0
Kimler (H) - 2-run HR in 5th, solo HR in 7th
Jacob Mayers - 6 shutout IP, 2 BB, 10 Ks.
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Who are the Starters for both teams? Kane is probably starting for Hanover but no clue about the other. How are both guys pitching?
Top of the 5th Cox 0 Hanover 0
Mayers started for Hanover
Mattes started for Cox
Both still pitching
Mayers started for Hanover
Mattes started for Cox
Both still pitching
Kingjam,
Thanks for the info to listen to the game. It was great to hear play by play. Much better than waiting for a call to see what was going on.
Thanks for the info to listen to the game. It was great to hear play by play. Much better than waiting for a call to see what was going on.
Gameday also saves the audio webcasts, so you can go back and listen to them over and over. I think Kemler's family might want to bookmark the site!
thats good gameday does that.i wish we had something around here broadcasting.
Cox should have won. Bases loaded no outs and we tried to bunt with 1 out and 2 outs wtf is that? bad coaching and kids not stepping up. the worst officiating I have ever seen.great pitching from hanover but Menchville will take it home.
quote:Cox should have won. Bases loaded no outs and we tried to bunt with 1 out and 2 outs wtf is that? bad coaching and kids not stepping up. the worst officiating I have ever seen.great pitching from hanover but Menchville will take it home.
I wasn’t there, but was suppose to have the plate. Due to a previous commitment, I couldn’t make the trip. Trying to figure out how you get from bases loaded no outs, try to bunt with 1 out and 2 outs, still get no runs, and it’s the worst officiating ever? With bases loaded and no outs, Cox should have been able to push across at least 1 or 2 runs.
extalent needs to stop with the whining and excuses. One bad call that I can recall where the 3b umpire got a little lazy rather than getting in position to make the correct call, but that was not the reason Cox lost. Jake Mayers pitched a heckuva game and pitched himself out of a lot of tough situations. Ryan Mattes pitched a great game as well holding the potent Hawks lineup to only 4 hits through 6 innings. As for the bunt with one out, IMO that was absolutely the correct call with the batter we had at the plate. Plain and simple, leaving 11 runners on base is the reason we lost.
That said, I couldn't be prouder of this team. An absolutely fantastic season for a team that will be remembered as one with no quit in it. After seeing their #4 batter, leading rbi guy, starting catcher, and team leader in Austin Erb go down in the district final (just a day after an unfortunate ankle injury to LF Tyler Knight), this team could easily have packed it in, but the coaches and kids refused to let it end their season. Chase Kyricou, then misses a start in RF for 1st game of the region tourney due to illness, yet somehow, the Falcons rallied to win their 1st region title since '96 and knocking off a team ranked #5 in the nation in the process. It sickens me to hear "fans" complain about coaching decisions. Its very easy to 2nd guess a coach after the fact and no one seems to remember all the decisions that turned out for the best. Coach Conroy and his staff did an amazing job with that team this year and deserve a lot of the credit for their success. Congratulations to Menchville's Region Coach of the Year. He obviously did an admirable job this year and I was very impressed with his handling of that talented team, but who did a better coaching job? The guy with the team with enough talent to be ranked at one time #1 in the country or the guy with the team that overcame long odds, injuries, and illness to to knocked them off? Congrats to Coach Conroy and the Falcons for a great season.
That said, I couldn't be prouder of this team. An absolutely fantastic season for a team that will be remembered as one with no quit in it. After seeing their #4 batter, leading rbi guy, starting catcher, and team leader in Austin Erb go down in the district final (just a day after an unfortunate ankle injury to LF Tyler Knight), this team could easily have packed it in, but the coaches and kids refused to let it end their season. Chase Kyricou, then misses a start in RF for 1st game of the region tourney due to illness, yet somehow, the Falcons rallied to win their 1st region title since '96 and knocking off a team ranked #5 in the nation in the process. It sickens me to hear "fans" complain about coaching decisions. Its very easy to 2nd guess a coach after the fact and no one seems to remember all the decisions that turned out for the best. Coach Conroy and his staff did an amazing job with that team this year and deserve a lot of the credit for their success. Congratulations to Menchville's Region Coach of the Year. He obviously did an admirable job this year and I was very impressed with his handling of that talented team, but who did a better coaching job? The guy with the team with enough talent to be ranked at one time #1 in the country or the guy with the team that overcame long odds, injuries, and illness to to knocked them off? Congrats to Coach Conroy and the Falcons for a great season.
I thought the game was complicated by the HPU's ridiculously tight strike zone. He especially repeatedly called the ball at the knees low for a ball. He was not biased; he just did not call the rule book strike zone for either side.
Cox seemed intent on running up Mayers' pitch count to get him out of the game, and in the end that worked, as he had to leave after 6 despite throwing a shutout. Against the reliever in the 7th, Cox put the first two pitches into play and sped along the end of the game. There they should've been waiting to see if they could've gotten a runner or two gifted to them. But my main point is, had Mayers gotten some rule book calls -- not typical HS expanded zone calls, mind you, just rule book calls -- I think he would've had fewer walks, fewer deep counts, and fewer difficult innings. He likely would have finished the game.
For Cox, Mattes was impressive. I had never heard of the guy, but he shackled Hanover very effectively. Occasionally he dialed up his fastball to upper 80's and his slider was very effective. But in the 5th, he had a batter 3-2 and threw a ball at the knees that absolutely should've been strike 3. 2 outs later, when the inning should've been over, Kemler breaks the spell by nailing a 2-run HR. Mattes also had to come out after the 6th, and while both relievers gave up a long ball, Cox's guy yielded a HR to left while Hanover's got the ball high off the wall in LCF. Had we had a rule book strike zone, we could've gone to the 7th in a 0-0 tie with both starters still in there. Who knows how it would've turned out.
So, from someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight, I would say on balance that the absurd officiating behind home plate did affect the outcome. Unfortunately I think the fact of the matter is the HPU was a short guy and I don't think he could see over the catchers to see where the lower pitches really were, so he just called them all balls.
Cox seemed intent on running up Mayers' pitch count to get him out of the game, and in the end that worked, as he had to leave after 6 despite throwing a shutout. Against the reliever in the 7th, Cox put the first two pitches into play and sped along the end of the game. There they should've been waiting to see if they could've gotten a runner or two gifted to them. But my main point is, had Mayers gotten some rule book calls -- not typical HS expanded zone calls, mind you, just rule book calls -- I think he would've had fewer walks, fewer deep counts, and fewer difficult innings. He likely would have finished the game.
For Cox, Mattes was impressive. I had never heard of the guy, but he shackled Hanover very effectively. Occasionally he dialed up his fastball to upper 80's and his slider was very effective. But in the 5th, he had a batter 3-2 and threw a ball at the knees that absolutely should've been strike 3. 2 outs later, when the inning should've been over, Kemler breaks the spell by nailing a 2-run HR. Mattes also had to come out after the 6th, and while both relievers gave up a long ball, Cox's guy yielded a HR to left while Hanover's got the ball high off the wall in LCF. Had we had a rule book strike zone, we could've gone to the 7th in a 0-0 tie with both starters still in there. Who knows how it would've turned out.
So, from someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight, I would say on balance that the absurd officiating behind home plate did affect the outcome. Unfortunately I think the fact of the matter is the HPU was a short guy and I don't think he could see over the catchers to see where the lower pitches really were, so he just called them all balls.
Midlo dad, that is very interesting what you have said. I agree with what you have said. What I find even more interesting is how many Cox players ended up striking out late in the game on called third strikes. It was as if a new umpire took over the last two innings.
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I thought the game was complicated by the HPU's ridiculously tight strike zone. He especially repeatedly called the ball at the knees low for a ball. He was not biased; he just did not call the rule book strike zone for either side.
Cox seemed intent on running up Mayers' pitch count to get him out of the game, and in the end that worked, as he had to leave after 6 despite throwing a shutout. Against the reliever in the 7th, Cox put the first two pitches into play and sped along the end of the game. There they should've been waiting to see if they could've gotten a runner or two gifted to them. But my main point is, had Mayers gotten some rule book calls -- not typical HS expanded zone calls, mind you, just rule book calls -- I think he would've had fewer walks, fewer deep counts, and fewer difficult innings. He likely would have finished the game.
For Cox, Mattes was impressive. I had never heard of the guy, but he shackled Hanover very effectively. Occasionally he dialed up his fastball to upper 80's and his slider was very effective. But in the 5th, he had a batter 3-2 and threw a ball at the knees that absolutely should've been strike 3. 2 outs later, when the inning should've been over, Kemler breaks the spell by nailing a 2-run HR. Mattes also had to come out after the 6th, and while both relievers gave up a long ball, Cox's guy yielded a HR to left while Hanover's got the ball high off the wall in LCF. Had we had a rule book strike zone, we could've gone to the 7th in a 0-0 tie with both starters still in there. Who knows how it would've turned out.
So, from someone who doesn't have a dog in this fight, I would say on balance that the absurd officiating behind home plate did affect the outcome. Unfortunately I think the fact of the matter is the HPU was a short guy and I don't think he could see over the catchers to see where the lower pitches really were, so he just called them all balls.
What did the mattes kid top out at? Where has he been hiding?
So the plate umpire had a “ridiculously tight strike zone”? That generally leads to a hitter’s game. Score 3 – 0, not a hitter’s game. 11 runners left on base? What I think you may have been seeing is a strike zone that is more “rule book” than you think.
Was the catcher pulling the ball back up after he caught it? If so, that’s an indication to the umpire that the catcher thought the ball was low. If it wasn’t low, why pull it up? College umpires see the catcher pull the ball into the strike zone. And for those that say it doesn’t matter how the catcher catches the ball, think of this. Catcher sets up 8” outside, and the pitcher hits the mitt without any movement at all. Should that be a strike because the catcher didn’t move his glove? And yes, I’ve heard many a coach and fan make that comment. Can’t have it both ways.
What I usually see throughout the HS season, the strike zone is a little on the large side. When the playoffs start, more college level umpires are working the plate. They tend to be more precise on borderline pitches, especially the knee pitch. So, the tight strike zone is closer to the rule book than you are used to seeing.
And on a side note, do you really want a MLB (rule book) strike zone. Think of that pitch ½” off the plate? Ask you pitchers and coaches if they want that pitch called a ball.
Was the catcher pulling the ball back up after he caught it? If so, that’s an indication to the umpire that the catcher thought the ball was low. If it wasn’t low, why pull it up? College umpires see the catcher pull the ball into the strike zone. And for those that say it doesn’t matter how the catcher catches the ball, think of this. Catcher sets up 8” outside, and the pitcher hits the mitt without any movement at all. Should that be a strike because the catcher didn’t move his glove? And yes, I’ve heard many a coach and fan make that comment. Can’t have it both ways.
What I usually see throughout the HS season, the strike zone is a little on the large side. When the playoffs start, more college level umpires are working the plate. They tend to be more precise on borderline pitches, especially the knee pitch. So, the tight strike zone is closer to the rule book than you are used to seeing.
And on a side note, do you really want a MLB (rule book) strike zone. Think of that pitch ½” off the plate? Ask you pitchers and coaches if they want that pitch called a ball.
base, you are correct.
While MidloDad could very well be correct on the low pitch calls, IMHO no one could get a "true view" of the HPU's strike zone, except for the catchers.
The game was not broadcast on TV. And the Westfield pressbox is right up against the backstop. So, while at many schools, fans can stand behind home plate and watch the game, this can't be done at WF. From the pressbox, you can get a good view of the inside/outside calls but the angle makes it tough to see high/low.
IMHO, the HPU called a tight zone. But it was consistent. AND, if it was a truly tight zone, I think we all would have expected a higher scoring game.
Bottom line, we saw some pretty darn good pitching by ALL 4 teams in the 2 Sat. semis.......
Congrats to Menchville........they are an impressive team!!!!
The game was not broadcast on TV. And the Westfield pressbox is right up against the backstop. So, while at many schools, fans can stand behind home plate and watch the game, this can't be done at WF. From the pressbox, you can get a good view of the inside/outside calls but the angle makes it tough to see high/low.
IMHO, the HPU called a tight zone. But it was consistent. AND, if it was a truly tight zone, I think we all would have expected a higher scoring game.
Bottom line, we saw some pretty darn good pitching by ALL 4 teams in the 2 Sat. semis.......
Congrats to Menchville........they are an impressive team!!!!
There were many close calls complained of, both balls and strikes, on the inside edge of the plate. From where I sat, I could not tell whether those were good or bad calls.
But from a side view, I had a very good look at the high/low issue. I appreciate the brethren coming to the defense of the HPU, but I'll stand by what I saw.
Why wasn't it a higher scoring game, then? Because the pitchers battled, there were some outs made on the bases, and the hitters didn't get it done.
In Jake Mayers you're talking about a kid who's pitched against the highest level of competition available in this country for many years now. He has seen difficult umpiring and tough hitters before, even in combination. You had to know going in that no matter what happened, he would be unfazed. I told someone before the game that I truly did not expect Cox to score. Jake proved that faith in him justified yet again.
As for why Hanover didn't score more, I think they were more aggressive and got caught chasing a lot of sliders out of the zone to bail Mattes out some. But give Mattes credit both for having that strong slider and also for knowing to keep going back to it as long as the hitters were unable to stop swinging at it.
As for his MPH, that's an interesting question. I would guess he threw most of his fastballs in the 86 range, but he had an occasional 89-90 in there. Given that the kid is lanky to say the least, that amount of velocity was somewhat surprising.
But from a side view, I had a very good look at the high/low issue. I appreciate the brethren coming to the defense of the HPU, but I'll stand by what I saw.
Why wasn't it a higher scoring game, then? Because the pitchers battled, there were some outs made on the bases, and the hitters didn't get it done.
In Jake Mayers you're talking about a kid who's pitched against the highest level of competition available in this country for many years now. He has seen difficult umpiring and tough hitters before, even in combination. You had to know going in that no matter what happened, he would be unfazed. I told someone before the game that I truly did not expect Cox to score. Jake proved that faith in him justified yet again.
As for why Hanover didn't score more, I think they were more aggressive and got caught chasing a lot of sliders out of the zone to bail Mattes out some. But give Mattes credit both for having that strong slider and also for knowing to keep going back to it as long as the hitters were unable to stop swinging at it.
As for his MPH, that's an interesting question. I would guess he threw most of his fastballs in the 86 range, but he had an occasional 89-90 in there. Given that the kid is lanky to say the least, that amount of velocity was somewhat surprising.
Props to Mayers for battling.
Interesting moment early in the game (2nd or 3rd inning).
Mayers threw a pitch that was called a ball. Mayers must have said something because the umpire got TICKED OFF!
He took off his mask and started walking to the mound. I distinctly heard the ump say, "were you talking to me?". That's all I could hear, never heard what Mayers said, or other things said by ump.
Coach Dragum came out for an explanation, but things simmered down after that......
Oh, BTW, Mayers was outstanding on the mound!
Interesting moment early in the game (2nd or 3rd inning).
Mayers threw a pitch that was called a ball. Mayers must have said something because the umpire got TICKED OFF!
He took off his mask and started walking to the mound. I distinctly heard the ump say, "were you talking to me?". That's all I could hear, never heard what Mayers said, or other things said by ump.
Coach Dragum came out for an explanation, but things simmered down after that......
Oh, BTW, Mayers was outstanding on the mound!
quote:Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
There were many close calls complained of, both balls and strikes, on the inside edge of the plate. From where I sat, I could not tell whether those were good or bad calls.
But from a side view, I had a very good look at the high/low issue. I appreciate the brethren coming to the defense of the HPU, but I'll stand by what I saw.
Why wasn't it a higher scoring game, then? Because the pitchers battled, there were some outs made on the bases, and the hitters didn't get it done.
In Jake Mayers you're talking about a kid who's pitched against the highest level of competition available in this country for many years now. He has seen difficult umpiring and tough hitters before, even in combination. You had to know going in that no matter what happened, he would be unfazed. I told someone before the game that I truly did not expect Cox to score. Jake proved that faith in him justified yet again.
As for why Hanover didn't score more, I think they were more aggressive and got caught chasing a lot of sliders out of the zone to bail Mattes out some. But give Mattes credit both for having that strong slider and also for knowing to keep going back to it as long as the hitters were unable to stop swinging at it.
As for his MPH, that's an interesting question. I would guess he threw most of his fastballs in the 86 range, but he had an occasional 89-90 in there. Given that the kid is lanky to say the least, that amount of velocity was somewhat surprising.
Ryan Mattes is kid that flat out knows how to pitch. He's been doing it for a long time and it shows. Definitely not just a "thrower" and with a 6'6" frame that has a LOT of filling out to do, he has tremendous potential to continue to improve. I'm really surprised that a D1 school has not taken a chance on him yet because he can get it done now and his velocity is sure to increase as he adds muscle to that thin frame. Hopefully his performance this weekend will open up some eyes.
Midlo, as I said earlier, I wasn’t there to “see” the strike zone, so I cannot comment on any particulars, only umpiring philosophy. I do know the plate umpire and have worked many games with him at the college level. Is his strike smaller than most – yes. He makes the pitcher throw the ball in the “zone”. Many HS umpires will give several inches off the plate, both inside and outside, and an inch or so low. If they don’t, it leads to walk-a-thons, which no-one likes. As the level of ball increases, the strike zone gets closer to the “rule book” zone. The plate umpire’s strike zone is more rule book than you think. I do know that the players, coaches and fans for one team “want” a call to go their way – they are rooting for their team. That is understandable. However, any close call – safe, out, ball or strike – is going to have one side unhappy. So, I don’t take what players, coaches, parents and fans say (good or bad) as gospel.
I know when I have struggled or have been dead on all day. Could the plate umpire have had a bad day? Yes, but unlike the players, there isn’t a relief umpire (sometimes to the fans dismay). If the plate umpire had a good day, but a tight strike zone, and the players are as good as previously discussed, then they should be able to adjust. If he wasn’t giving anything off the plate, or borderline at the knees, don’t throw it there. If you do and it’s a ball because it’s 1” off the plate…… The same goes for hitters, if the plate umpire is calling a pitch 3” off the plate a strike, and you don’t swing at it………
What I do find funny, is that there are posts on this site that will complain that an umpire’s strike zone is too big and too small. Generally, pitchers parents think it’s too small and hitter’s parents think it’s too big.
I know when I have struggled or have been dead on all day. Could the plate umpire have had a bad day? Yes, but unlike the players, there isn’t a relief umpire (sometimes to the fans dismay). If the plate umpire had a good day, but a tight strike zone, and the players are as good as previously discussed, then they should be able to adjust. If he wasn’t giving anything off the plate, or borderline at the knees, don’t throw it there. If you do and it’s a ball because it’s 1” off the plate…… The same goes for hitters, if the plate umpire is calling a pitch 3” off the plate a strike, and you don’t swing at it………
What I do find funny, is that there are posts on this site that will complain that an umpire’s strike zone is too big and too small. Generally, pitchers parents think it’s too small and hitter’s parents think it’s too big.
Did anyone notice how in the last 2 innings, there were a lot of called third strikes. It seemed to me that the umpire called a small strike zone for the first 5 innings and then near the end of the game he loosened up his strike zone and the players were surprised. In the bottom of the 6th inning, all 3 outs were on called third strikes.
Base, again, right on.
Midlo = Pitcher's Parent. Superball = Hitter's Parent (and former umpire).
Consistency is what hitters crave. Hitters are trained to adjust to the pitcher and the umpire. It's a game of adjustments, how many times, at every level, is that mantra repeated.
It's the same for pitchers. Adjust to the hitters and to the umpire, and if you get umpiring consistency, that's all you (and your team) should ask for. The notion that the "better" pitcher who can throw the rulebook strike vs the "average" pitcher who can't, but now gains an unfair advantage, due to the umpire having a tight zone is a big reach for me.
Midlo = Pitcher's Parent. Superball = Hitter's Parent (and former umpire).
Consistency is what hitters crave. Hitters are trained to adjust to the pitcher and the umpire. It's a game of adjustments, how many times, at every level, is that mantra repeated.
It's the same for pitchers. Adjust to the hitters and to the umpire, and if you get umpiring consistency, that's all you (and your team) should ask for. The notion that the "better" pitcher who can throw the rulebook strike vs the "average" pitcher who can't, but now gains an unfair advantage, due to the umpire having a tight zone is a big reach for me.
I am indeed a former pitcher and a pitcher's parent. But I was at this game solely as a fan. If anything I was pulling for Hanover, so I'm here to tell you, Mattes got screwed on that walk before the first HR.
I have been around this game long enough to know the difference between a strike at the knees and a "high school strike" called a bit below that. Give me a break. I'm not some Little League parent belly aching because my kid got wrung up.
Why there were a lot of called thirds in the latter half of the game? Mayers struggled with his breaking pitch for the first half of the game. He couldn't get over it consistently and it tended to hang inside (to right-handed batters). Again, there were many close calls on the inside edge and again, I'm not in a position to say who was right and who was wrong on those, not from where I was sitting. But the fact that his breaking pitch was inside at all tells you, he wasn't getting it where he wanted it.
But he found it around the 4th inning, when his adrenaline got going when he found himself bases loaded, no outs. And from that point on, Cox was in trouble. I also don't discount the prospect that Cox's hitters were deflated by that 4th inning. And as noted, it was their strategy all game to take a lot of pitches and run up Mayers' pitch count, so in the end they took a few too many.
I didn't see any change in the zone from start to finish. I just thought the pitchers had to throw it 2-3" above the knees to get the call in that area.
I realize you umps hear a lot and you get used to letting it roll off your back and turning a deaf ear to it. Usually that's fine, even necessary, but sometimes you might want to consider the possibility that your man out there was not on his game that particular day. There is a place for constructive criticism, but in order for it to work, someone in supervisory authority has to have an open mind when he hears things that are reasoned and rational and not just the usual carping.
I also thought he picked a fight with Mayers in the situation noted above, and later with a Cox batter who said very little on a called third strike. Now, if the Cox kid dropped an "F-bomb", I can see a warning, but the guy whipped off his mask with definite anger, which was not called for even if it was an "F-bomb". With respect to Mayers, the ump thought he heard something, but I don't think what he heard came from Mayers at all. Mayers was surprised by the ump's coming after him. And yes, it was the ump coming after him, not the other way around.
All in all, I could've stood to see a little less of the ump showing how in command he was, and more of the game.
I have been around this game long enough to know the difference between a strike at the knees and a "high school strike" called a bit below that. Give me a break. I'm not some Little League parent belly aching because my kid got wrung up.
Why there were a lot of called thirds in the latter half of the game? Mayers struggled with his breaking pitch for the first half of the game. He couldn't get over it consistently and it tended to hang inside (to right-handed batters). Again, there were many close calls on the inside edge and again, I'm not in a position to say who was right and who was wrong on those, not from where I was sitting. But the fact that his breaking pitch was inside at all tells you, he wasn't getting it where he wanted it.
But he found it around the 4th inning, when his adrenaline got going when he found himself bases loaded, no outs. And from that point on, Cox was in trouble. I also don't discount the prospect that Cox's hitters were deflated by that 4th inning. And as noted, it was their strategy all game to take a lot of pitches and run up Mayers' pitch count, so in the end they took a few too many.
I didn't see any change in the zone from start to finish. I just thought the pitchers had to throw it 2-3" above the knees to get the call in that area.
I realize you umps hear a lot and you get used to letting it roll off your back and turning a deaf ear to it. Usually that's fine, even necessary, but sometimes you might want to consider the possibility that your man out there was not on his game that particular day. There is a place for constructive criticism, but in order for it to work, someone in supervisory authority has to have an open mind when he hears things that are reasoned and rational and not just the usual carping.
I also thought he picked a fight with Mayers in the situation noted above, and later with a Cox batter who said very little on a called third strike. Now, if the Cox kid dropped an "F-bomb", I can see a warning, but the guy whipped off his mask with definite anger, which was not called for even if it was an "F-bomb". With respect to Mayers, the ump thought he heard something, but I don't think what he heard came from Mayers at all. Mayers was surprised by the ump's coming after him. And yes, it was the ump coming after him, not the other way around.
All in all, I could've stood to see a little less of the ump showing how in command he was, and more of the game.
Cox was screwed bottom line. Umps were the worst I have ever seen. The call a third was a joke. In 30 years of baseball I have never seen a call that bad. Cox left too many guys on 11 I think? You can't do that and expect to win. However, Mattas only gave up 2 runs the offence let him down. TOOO many called strike 3 looking.
Midlo, so far this discussion has been pretty tame. I was thinking this afternoon how nice it was to have a discussion without attitudes. I never said that you were some Little League parent or have never seen a game. This has been a candid discussion of strike zones and what to expect. Now your tone has changed, and I’m not sure why.
Umpires do take constructive criticism, just not from non-umpires (you). In the VaBeach area, we have a detailed evaluation system for all umpires from 1st year recreation to D-1 College, used to continually improve. This system was designed by a former MLB umpire so that each umpire knew what they needed to work on to get to the next level or stay at the current level. Current and former umpires evaluate those working games. The goal or our association is that each umpire get at least one eval a year, however most get several and some get as many as 10. We have approximately 125 umpires in our association, so those doing evaluations are quite busy. Could he have missed a pitch, sure. I don’t know, and from your vantage point – TO THE SIDE – he did. If your view was such a good view, the plate umpire would be over there with you, not behind the plate where he could get hit with a 90-mph pitch.
Now for the times the plate umpire “went” after the players. The Cox player laid the bat down in the batter’s box after being called out on strike-3. This is the same as drawing a line where the batter thought the pitch was. He’s lucky he didn’t get ejected right then. The plate umpire thought the pitcher for Hanover said something complaining about balls and strikes. This is the quickest way for a pitcher to get “in trouble with an umpire”. However, he didn’t and it was settled between the coach and umpire.
From your expert comments throughout this thread and others, I suggest you start umpiring. With your knowledge, you should be working college baseball within a week or two. From your screen name, I guess you are in he Richmond area, so please give Greg Walls a call and he will get you started.
Umpires do take constructive criticism, just not from non-umpires (you). In the VaBeach area, we have a detailed evaluation system for all umpires from 1st year recreation to D-1 College, used to continually improve. This system was designed by a former MLB umpire so that each umpire knew what they needed to work on to get to the next level or stay at the current level. Current and former umpires evaluate those working games. The goal or our association is that each umpire get at least one eval a year, however most get several and some get as many as 10. We have approximately 125 umpires in our association, so those doing evaluations are quite busy. Could he have missed a pitch, sure. I don’t know, and from your vantage point – TO THE SIDE – he did. If your view was such a good view, the plate umpire would be over there with you, not behind the plate where he could get hit with a 90-mph pitch.
Now for the times the plate umpire “went” after the players. The Cox player laid the bat down in the batter’s box after being called out on strike-3. This is the same as drawing a line where the batter thought the pitch was. He’s lucky he didn’t get ejected right then. The plate umpire thought the pitcher for Hanover said something complaining about balls and strikes. This is the quickest way for a pitcher to get “in trouble with an umpire”. However, he didn’t and it was settled between the coach and umpire.
From your expert comments throughout this thread and others, I suggest you start umpiring. With your knowledge, you should be working college baseball within a week or two. From your screen name, I guess you are in he Richmond area, so please give Greg Walls a call and he will get you started.
I hope this umpire wasn't one of the "the game is all about me" guys. They are the worst kind. It certainly sounds like it though. In a well officiated contest(in any sport)you shouldn't even know they are on the field.
To be as aggressive toward Jake like that was uncalled for. That young man would never get rattled and risk hurting his team in any game or situation. There is no doubt the umpire was obviously rattled to falsely accuse him!
To be as aggressive toward Jake like that was uncalled for. That young man would never get rattled and risk hurting his team in any game or situation. There is no doubt the umpire was obviously rattled to falsely accuse him!
As I said, from where I sat, I could not question calls inside/outside. But from the side view you can clearly see up/down. As for why the umpire had so much difficulty with that from directly behind home plate, I really don't know. Base, maybe you can make a point to go evaluate him yourself some day.
And I'll stand by my comments that I thought he handled the two dust-ups badly. In the first one I'm pretty sure he was simply mistaken, but rather than inquire or go out to the mound, he stood at home plate and yelled at Jake, loud enough to make sure everyone there could hear, basically creating a confrontation. In the second one, the Cox batter clearly complained about a called third strike. The batter was not terribly agitated but again, depending on what he said an ejection might've been in order. A temper tantrum was not.
Base, if you want to disagree then fine, but don't come on here with that condescending attitude and then act all holier than thou when you're called on it. I call BS on that.
And I'll stand by my comments that I thought he handled the two dust-ups badly. In the first one I'm pretty sure he was simply mistaken, but rather than inquire or go out to the mound, he stood at home plate and yelled at Jake, loud enough to make sure everyone there could hear, basically creating a confrontation. In the second one, the Cox batter clearly complained about a called third strike. The batter was not terribly agitated but again, depending on what he said an ejection might've been in order. A temper tantrum was not.
Base, if you want to disagree then fine, but don't come on here with that condescending attitude and then act all holier than thou when you're called on it. I call BS on that.
Base Jones,
Are you using this site as a vehicle to recruit umpires? You offer the positions quite freely, though it seems you are never the umpire in question.
It would be interesting to know if your "supervisor" has any idea that you are posting on a high school baseball web site. It would certainly be hard to remain objective on the field when your "emotions" are so obvious.
In fact, the umpires and the coaches are the only paid participants on the field at the high school level! Interesting!
Let these parents have their opinions!
Are you using this site as a vehicle to recruit umpires? You offer the positions quite freely, though it seems you are never the umpire in question.
It would be interesting to know if your "supervisor" has any idea that you are posting on a high school baseball web site. It would certainly be hard to remain objective on the field when your "emotions" are so obvious.
In fact, the umpires and the coaches are the only paid participants on the field at the high school level! Interesting!
Let these parents have their opinions!
quote:It would be interesting to know if your "supervisor" has any idea that you are posting on a high school baseball web site.
Yes he knows. It’s very a common theme that when a team loses, it’s always the umpires fault. All I am doing is sticking up for my fellow umpires. And when parents or fans think that it is so easy, I ask them to come out and give it a try because we are always looking for good umpires. As you have stated in another thread, there is a shortage of umpires and some of those that you know have left because the aggravation isn’t worth the effort and pay. All I’m trying to do is get those individuals who think they can umpire, to come on out. They may not know who to contact, and I’m just giving them that avenue.
And yes umpires are paid, and they are also the only ones who have NO stake in the outcome of the game.
Do parents and fans that come on this site and rip the umpires – yes. Do the umpires come on this site and rip the fans, parents, coaches and players – I have never seen an umpire come on this site and say “SoandSo HS would have won the game except the SS let 3 ground balls go between his legs, what a joke”. I have only presented another side (the umpire’s side) of an event. Remember there are always two sides. I have tried to keep the discussion civil, and only get defensive when the other party takes it there.
I pretty sure that you go to a number of ODU games, and if so, you have probably seen me there. And for those who want to know what playoff game you may have seen me at, I worked 1st base in the Tallwood/Cox Beach quarter, 2nd base in the Indian River/Granby regional quarter and 3rd base in the Menchville/Cox Regional final.
Base,
Just a thought. Everyone says that each batter gets 3 strikes and each high school team has 21 outs. Even if the umpire may "mis-judge" a call, in most cases, that one decision can not determine the final outcome of the game.
With that being said, as an engineer, lets say you design a building. There are 100 support beams in that building. You have only "mis-judged" one of those beams, and the building has not collapsed.
However, the building is tilting slightly to the left!
Just a thought. Everyone says that each batter gets 3 strikes and each high school team has 21 outs. Even if the umpire may "mis-judge" a call, in most cases, that one decision can not determine the final outcome of the game.
With that being said, as an engineer, lets say you design a building. There are 100 support beams in that building. You have only "mis-judged" one of those beams, and the building has not collapsed.
However, the building is tilting slightly to the left!
Hey Base.
The guy working third base at the Cox Vs Hanover game should be fired what a terrible call. Were you there to see how out of position he was? The guy behind the plate missed several pitches more like 10 so with that said he changed the outcome of the game. Without any doubt your man on third cost Cox an inning. THESE ARE FACTS BASE.
The guy working third base at the Cox Vs Hanover game should be fired what a terrible call. Were you there to see how out of position he was? The guy behind the plate missed several pitches more like 10 so with that said he changed the outcome of the game. Without any doubt your man on third cost Cox an inning. THESE ARE FACTS BASE.
One call will not change the outcome of a game nor will missing 10 pitches. An umpire sees at least 200 pitches during a game so if he misses only 10 pitches in one persons opinion then he missed .5% of the pitches that he saw. That sounds pretty good to me.
I wasn't there but one call shouldn't change the way the game finished.
I wasn't there but one call shouldn't change the way the game finished.
Well considering it was 2-0 going into the 7th one will never know will we?
How was the umpire at 3rd out of position?
Please explain more about the play that the 3rd base umpire missed. Was it the steal by the Cox player where he was called out?
After reading everyones comments I have come to the logical conclusion on how to fix all our problems. Hear me out on this.
First off, we eliminate the following individuals from the high school baseball experience: spectators, fans, parents, umpires. Based on the discussion on this thread these seem to be the overwhelming influences on the game.
Next, allow the two teams to arrive at the site and just play. The teams could use the honor system for officiating the game. The catchers could call balls and strikes. The base coaches could call outs and safes in the field. After all, baseball is a sport and the "sporting" thing to do would be honest and fair in these judgements.
Would the VHSL go for this? Probably not. Would the high school ADs go for it? Maybe (it would save $$ on officials, security, and custodial services)
Someone posted about the only individuals getting paid to be there are the umpires and coaches. I can say (because I am an official AND a scholastic coach) it is not about the $$. The local high school baseball I know doesn't get to school every other morning at 7am to mow the field before school starts because he loves the money. He has pride in his team, the facilities, and his school. Payments aren't always about $$. And as for umpiring, I don't do it for the $$. Its nice to find a venue where you can apply your abilities to help other people out. A venue where you can test yourself to work at becoming as good as you can at something. Its nice to be part of the process that gives young men and women the chance to develop in a scholastic and athletic environment.
*In a well officiated contest(in any sport)you shouldn't even know they are on the field.* - 3up3down
One last comment about the above quote. I don't agree with your statement at all. When I officiate my goal is that the game runs itself and that when it is over no one can tell you I was even there. Sometimes though umpires are called upon to actually "officiate" - apply their status, knowledge, and positional rights in an effort to allow the game to flow within the confines of the rules and decorum. Those games can be some of the best "officiated" games in a year, but many people will have to take notice of the umpire because of an unpopular judgement call or a rarely used rule application. So I have to disagree with you 3up3down, a well officiated game often requires that the officials be noticed.
First off, we eliminate the following individuals from the high school baseball experience: spectators, fans, parents, umpires. Based on the discussion on this thread these seem to be the overwhelming influences on the game.
Next, allow the two teams to arrive at the site and just play. The teams could use the honor system for officiating the game. The catchers could call balls and strikes. The base coaches could call outs and safes in the field. After all, baseball is a sport and the "sporting" thing to do would be honest and fair in these judgements.
Would the VHSL go for this? Probably not. Would the high school ADs go for it? Maybe (it would save $$ on officials, security, and custodial services)
Someone posted about the only individuals getting paid to be there are the umpires and coaches. I can say (because I am an official AND a scholastic coach) it is not about the $$. The local high school baseball I know doesn't get to school every other morning at 7am to mow the field before school starts because he loves the money. He has pride in his team, the facilities, and his school. Payments aren't always about $$. And as for umpiring, I don't do it for the $$. Its nice to find a venue where you can apply your abilities to help other people out. A venue where you can test yourself to work at becoming as good as you can at something. Its nice to be part of the process that gives young men and women the chance to develop in a scholastic and athletic environment.
*In a well officiated contest(in any sport)you shouldn't even know they are on the field.* - 3up3down
One last comment about the above quote. I don't agree with your statement at all. When I officiate my goal is that the game runs itself and that when it is over no one can tell you I was even there. Sometimes though umpires are called upon to actually "officiate" - apply their status, knowledge, and positional rights in an effort to allow the game to flow within the confines of the rules and decorum. Those games can be some of the best "officiated" games in a year, but many people will have to take notice of the umpire because of an unpopular judgement call or a rarely used rule application. So I have to disagree with you 3up3down, a well officiated game often requires that the officials be noticed.
Call it as you see it,
Great job explaining a well officiated game. Your entire post makes good sense to me. I would guess that you are as good on the field as you are in posting.
3up
Great job explaining a well officiated game. Your entire post makes good sense to me. I would guess that you are as good on the field as you are in posting.
3up
quote:How was the umpire at 3rd out of position?
He was 50 feet behind the bag; he didn’t make an effort to move to get into position. The 3rd baseman blocked his view the play really wasn’t even close. The Cox player was on the bag before the ball got there. The ump just didn’t move and couldn’t see he needed to ask for help. I mean that was a state playoff game. The man should be fired. Yes it was the pass ball runner tried to advance and he did. Let’s go back in time, he was safe, so now you have 1st and 3rd with 1 out with Zach and Chase *2 Power guys* coming up who knows what would have happened. I thought it was a joke, that call makes me sick, I am in disbelief that someone could miss a call like that. My stomach hurts.
I did not see the game, so I thank you for clearing that up. I did listen to the game on the gameday magazine broadcast. Both announcers said that the runner was clearly safe.
quote:With that being said, as an engineer, lets say you design a building. There are 100 support beams in that building. You have only "mis-judged" one of those beams, and the building has not collapsed.
However, the building is tilting slightly to the left!
I guess we should have the catcher hold the ball where he catches it and then the umpire can call time and pull out his ruler and measure each pitch. Umpiring is judgements calls. I doubt you could stand back and correctly judge 100 support beams with any precision, but since you are an engineer and have had the proper training I bet you could get real close....