Here's One of Interest ??

No names...but sounds familiar...
The Grand Poohpah & founder of this wonderful site, Bob, compiled several very good articles on over recruiting that are of interest...

http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/over-recruiting.htm

For everything else, here's the link to great stuff

http://www.hsbaseballweb.com/players_parents.htm

Think we have been through this before.

Coach Merc,
It's time you noticed recruiting can have absolutely no rhyme or reason for us parents. Must have a method to all this madness

Glad we were here and did a ton of homework... It just amazes me when this continues to happen.

Coach Merc,

The colleges that stockpile are pretty easy to identify.

There are also many others - that over recruit - perhaps not to the same extent - but they have a variety of tricks up their sleeve that are effective in getting the sample size to their school the first year.

Once they do - the player is behind the eight ball - so to speak.

Its a nasty business - and some schools are much nastier about it than others.

Great Info. \
I found most of the coaches overstock slightly knowing some would not play.
One school told us right up front they over stock and were waiting to see who signed pro deals. The schools were generally upfront.
What was a surprise was having to make the roster and the travel roster. We were unaware of this. When 40+ guys showed up for tryouts he was suprised but I can understand they need the bodies for various reasons.
I don't think alot of guys know this. I am not sure if this is the case at all schools. Most coaches I delt with were very up front.

Is that "up front" if you ask the right question or is it included in unsolicited information?

Getting the prospect to the campus is goal number one.

There are many very clever techinques used to do this.

Once they are there - and you can lock them up - you go to the next one.

I would advise any parent to be wary of blending scenarios that involve "Out of state waivers".

It is the primary area of abuse IMO. Alot of leeway and wiggle room still allowed - and you can get hacked to pieces if you arent well prepared.

I believe most told me they usually sign about 45 players and expect to lose some through the draft and academic issues.
The #1 school my son was interested in would not make an offer until the dust settled. When it started to get late in the season they ran out of scholarship money and had oversigned LHP JUCOs. They offered hima walk on or to set him up in a JUCO so they could follow him. They were straight forward and I appreciated that. I didn't have a clue about this.
We fortunately had good alternatives and would have stayed out a year so my son could work if we had to. We were not in a hurry and had some great JUCOs as backups.
We were also surprised that we had to get accepted into the school prior to a written offer. We knew the scholarship amounts but had to apply and get accepted first.

Itsinthegame,

I assume you're talking about the "Out-of-state tuition waiver?" I'm not properly initiated, I suppose...can you explain to me what the abuse is? Feel free to send me a PM.

Thanks

I will send you a PM this evening.

It is because of "stockpiling" and those disingenuous "hope" and other scholarship programs in some states that the NCAA doesn't care about baseball and their 11.7 scholarship limits and won't do anything about it. (Doesn't matter who complains!)

itsinthegame, send me a PM with your thoughts on this also, if you could

It's particularly sad to me that you read some of the message boards dedicated to the baseball programs of schools like the one described here and all of the posters act as though it's the most natural thing in the world that players are asked to leave on a regular basis to make room for the next wave. No matter that they've ridden the bench for as long as they've been there during a particularly precious time of their baseball careers. No matter that freshmen come in and are surprized to learn that there are about as many junior college transfers ahead of them as there are freshmen in their recruiting class.

In my opinion, there's a pretty severe human toll being exacted here that's unnecessary, but the people associated with these programs at all levels of involvement and interest seem to simply shrug their shoulders at the "debris" and delight in the next crop's "studs of the moment" who will undoubtedly get them to the Promised Land.

Kellerdad and kb,

I will try to get some time this evening to send you both a PM. If not - I will definitely send it to you tomorrow.

Prepster,
You are definetly one of my most favorite posters who always gets the point across but I am not really understanding your post.

We have had so many discussions regarding large rosters and should in no way be taken lightly in conversation. I don't think that anyone here takes it lightly, just very hard for some of us to comprehend.

Prepster,
I happen to agree with you but at the same time I think we (parents and players) are forced to understand and cope with the situation. After all it is the coach and the college administration, and possibly some influential boosters, not the parents and players that dictate the “win at all cost” policy and create the fields of “dead soldiers” as they go forward. We parents need to accept the responsibility to research the programs and advise our sons before they sign. After they sign then it becomes the responsibility of our sons to work hard to make it work. No one likes it, but if a university chooses to overstock, then so be it. We have to educate ourselves and work through it.
Fungo

Sorry to confuse, TPM.

Put differently, I think "stockpiling" has become such a way of life for a handful of programs that it's become an accepted practice; so accepted that those associated with the program overlook (or simply don't care about) the fact that players are routinely wasting 1 or 2 precious years of playing time. So often, the players and their families are so "star struck" when they're recruited that they overlook the fact the coaches are sitting down once (sometimes twice) a year with players who've preceded them to tell them that they're cutting their scholarship or that they're likely not going to get any playing time if they stay.

Freshmen at these programs often come in with scant knowledge of the fact that there might be as many junior college transfers as freshmen in the recruited class; and guess who tends to get the playing time?

Many associated with these programs will say that this is the way it "has to be" in order to consistently get to the top of the collegiate ranks. Perhaps it is. I just happen to be one who thinks it's a shame that it's done at the expense of a number of players' important college years, and that that's considered "okay" by many who lead and support those programs.

As usual, Fungo, I couldn't agree more.

Prepster,
Gotcha now and I agree with you 100%.

And so do many fine ethical college coaches who used to adhere to that practice of beginning with large fall rosters then cutting away until it was mandated that rosters be in compliance with no more than 35 by spring!

Many still contine and seem to get away with it, year after year. As long as the NCAA does not interfere with the fall, they will continue.
I just think it is just plain laziness on the part of the coaches. We'll get the best we can, then see who shows up and who doesn't, then just cut away.
JMO.

Prepster, et al,

Some very good posts by you all. I really feel the same way and I spent a lot of time researching this issue as our son was recruited. One school that he gave great consideration to utilized this approach, which gave me great concern and I have a couple of friends whose sons ended up there. I think one of the indicators that you are in this "recycling" group is that you are offered a low scholarship...but it is no guarantee and parents and players should do their homework!

I think this situation I'm about to discuss is a little different...but I think some schools really need to rely on the JC recruiting route to be successful in athletics. A school local to me, San Jose State, used to utilize the JC route for football and had some very successful teams...once they changed their philosophy to HS players, they have really dropped. For a school like SJSU...it makes sense...even in baseball. I think the issue is when the incoming recruiting class is put into a situation of a tryout so to speak. That has got to be very frustrating.

I have been watching one schools recruiting last year and this year. Last year they only signed 1 HS ball player. All the rest were transfers and Juccos & Trans. This year they were all HS and a few Juccos. I was told that last year they needed immediate impact and this year they are looking for longevity. Guys who can give them 4 years. I admired the coach when we deralt with him and when he finally told us he was going Jucco players we were not upset at all. To me he sounded like a coach planning to win.

Good programs attract competitive players. Just read Kentucky's press release announcing their 17 NLI's.

http://www.ukathletics.com/index.php?s=&url_channel_id=36&url_article_id=16702&url_subchannel_id=&change_well_id=2

I agree that these numbers are high, but as the coach points out,
“It is a very high caliber class, but I’m sure the major league draft will be a factor in June as always. However, to win in the SEC, you have to recruit these types of players.”

I would rather see limits and smaller recruiting classes, but I understand where these coaches are coming from. You can't leave yourself depleted after the draft. Its a guessing game. I'm not saying its right, just that I understand both sides of the issue.

KCBaseball....Bad example

I guess it would be called rebuilding. It's easier for these guys to stock pile.

If you look at basketball, UNC lost all their scores last year. They may be down for this year and have to go out and recruit hard. I'm sure they will rebound.

KY may lose players to the draft??? don't many schools? The first example above had over 20 coming in and the possibility of 15 leaving if EVERY junior was drafted???

it really seems less a factor of the school or conference and more a result of the coach's recruiting style (or non-style as some would see it) - also when viewing a school you should find a pattern, not just look at 1 recruiting class -

with the easy availability of info on the net, it's important to have a pretty good read on the situation at each of your choices, as they can vary greatly & it will mimimze surprizes

to me anyway, it seems like some coaches do this
a) beacuse they can
b) because they're not good at evaluating talent off campus - which COULD be offset if you see them as good teacher/coaches - but only if you survive the "cut"

that's kinda wierd really, because with the popularity of scouting services, showcases, etc, they must be unwilling or unable to just "read a list" as well

I don't see how loosing juniors to the draft would affect anything except a help in recruiting more players hoping for a shot at 3 yrs & pro

it's much different at some D III's as the "excess roster players" are paying customers that some coaches are required to bring in



.

Fungo

Bad example of....? I guess I missed the point KCbaseball was making.

Bad example of rationalizing the large class?

Dad04,
Maybe LSU would have been a better example. I’m not endorsing LSU’s recruiting but they would be a better example to justify “over recruiting”. LSU has always been criticized for their stockpiling and over recruiting. Here is their news release about their 11 signees:
BATON ROUGE -- LSU is ranked No. 5 in the annual Collegiate Baseball magazine poll of the nation's top recruiting classes. South Carolina is No. 1 in the rankings, followed by Arizona State, Texas, Vanderbilt and LSU.
LSU, which was No. 1 in the recruiting poll last season, has finished among the top six in the country in each of the past six years. The Tigers' 2005 class includes seven freshmen, three junior college transfers and one four-year college transfer.

I read Coach Cohen’s news release about the quality of his recruiting class but neither Collegiate Baseball magazine nor Baseball America substantiates his claims.
The Kentucky baseball team signed its best recruiting class in years this signing period by adding 17 talented players to the fold for the 2007 season.
“This is the best class we’ve signed since we’ve been here,” said Kentucky head coach John Cohen, who saw his 2004 class ranked among the top 25 in the nation. “It is a very high caliber class, but I’m sure the major league draft will be a factor in June as always. However, to win in the SEC, you have to recruit these types of players.”
I know Coach Cohen released several players when he came to KY. That destructive move didn’t seem to improve their W-L record. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what his “over recruiting” does.

Actually, I thought KC's example was pretty good. If you followed KY baseball last year, they were a high scoring team that had rather poor pitching. KY signed 10 pitchers in that group of 17 and they look like a good group. 7 position players isn't much in a year. I think Cohen addressed their needs pretty well.

Saying "This is the best class we’ve signed since we’ve been here,” meant since Cohen has been there, which is only about 2-3 years if memory serves. I don't think he was saying it was the best in the country, just the best for KY in the last couple of years (and probably longer since they haven't been competitive lately). Just because this year's class didn't make Top 25 doesn't change his view.

Jaxbulldog,

Baseball America list the top 12 recruiting classes in the nation and six of those teams are in Kentucky’s conference, the SEC. Kentucky finished 7-22 in the SEC last year under John Cohen against that same competition that has just reloaded with better talent than Kentucky. It’s been five years since Kentucky has even qualified for the SEC tournament and it’s been twelve years since they have been to NCAA post season. The way I see it, the SEC is relentless and in order to move up in the ranks a coach has to be very talented....not brazen, bold, and outspoken. Cohen’s explanation for over recruiting is nothing more than press release propaganda. BUT again...I guess we’ll all have to wait and see.
Fungo
PS: I happen to like KY and hope they kick Tennessee’s tail this weekend.

You're taking your life in your hands talking like that--especially in your neck of the woods. Of course, if they ever have a chance, this year is it.

Fungo - your points are well taken. This thread should stand as a reminder for parents to thoroughly research programs. If a program is bringing in 20 kids a year - what's happening to the current players? Normal graduation and drafts don't usually take that many kids each and every year.

One of the schools that my JUCO son is interested in is a DI and has signed 5 kids in early signing for three years now - they have then picked up a couple of additional kids later on pretty much replacing what they loose. I'm sure it's a balancing act for any program, but it requires a lot of research on a parents part to make sure that stockpiling is not part of the picture for your son.

Fungo - Have you seen us play football? You've still got to time to recant that statement and cheer for the orange.

...so with about 200 players in the minor leagues for each MLB team, that would be "major league" over recruiting?................

quote:

I know Coach Cohen released several players when he came to KY. That destructive move didn’t seem to improve their W-L record. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see what his “over recruiting” does.

Of course Cohen came from Gainesville where last spring I counted 6 catchers for this year. Yet Coach McMahon is a hero with a CWS silver medal.

I guess my sons school could be a case (of some sort) in point. They signed big classes of 2004 and 2005 kids, 12 and 14 respectively, but they had 6 juniors and 16 seniors last year. They signed just 4 this year as they are a relatively young team now. They always have a bunch of red shirts though, usually more than 10.

The kids (mostly local) know the situation before they get there though with most chosing that over playing sooner elsewhere.

The bottom line is that from what I've seen and heard, most kids are trying out after they commit and enroll in school. I'm not sure how that is modified to minimize the destructive impact it has. Jr. related he felt sorry for a redshirt freshman teamate that got cut last week.

I would love for each kid to get to school and work his way to a starting spot sooner than later. the reality is that state schools with tuition reembursement frm the state, everyone in-state has all ar nearly all tuition paid, making the financial commitment for that year very minor to the in state kid.

Why don't some kids work out? Sometimes the coach is just wrong about the kid. Coaches are human and make mistakes. Sometimes the kid just has a bad fall. At each school there is usually natural atrition due to emotional, academic and other factors off the field that lower the numbers from fall to spring. We are living that. Jr's roomie, a highly recruited Texas LHP up and went home for good one day last month. I woulda been nice if he paid the rent though.

BTW Tennessee's tail has been for kickin' this fall, ain't it? A guy on ESPN called Fulmers year "the worst job of coaching in the country this year."

FO,
Good point but you and I both know this is comparing apples to oranges. Unlike college players, minor league players are never relegated to spending a season “on the bench”. Unlike a college organization that fields one team, a professional organization will field many teams. If we take your number of 200 and divide those 200 players between rookie, short “A”, low “A”, high “A”, “AA”’ “AAA”, and the ML club and you have 28.5 players per team.

quote:

The bottom line is that from what I've seen and heard, most kids are trying out after they commit and enroll in school. I'm not sure how that is modified to minimize the destructive impact it has. Jr. related he felt sorry for a redshirt freshman teamate that got cut last week.

My feelings about this subject have changed since my son has started school and all that I have read on this site. Basically, I have come to similar conclusions as Dad04. When my son was recruited, they said things would be wide open if the kid ahead of him was drafted which he was. It was very wide open with them trying out about 6 players for the position. My son was the only freshman of the lot where the other kids were 20 or 21 year old players.

It is a cruel world out there. It is all about competition. I think that is one of my son's strongest assets is he loves to compete. Well, he got exactly what he was looking for then

The destructive nature (of over-recruiting) can be mitgated somewhat if you are the type that is h-e-l-l-bent on playing somewhere, will stop at nothing to succeed, and willing to live with the consequences if things don't work out. In other words, a willingness to compete your b-utt off and let the chips fall where they may.

Maybe it's just the mom in me, but I would have a hard time encouraging any kid who is not a blue-chipper to consider a school that follows these practices, whether it be a coach with a CWS silver medal or the coach of a last place team. Maybe Cohen will turn things around at UK, but there hasn't been much improvement yet. Yes, I know he's only working on his 4th recruiting class, and I expect that it will get better, but I don't think he has even improved on Madison's last SEC record yet, and that record was pretty pitiful.

I think for 2006 they have 14 pitchers and 5 catchers listed (fr,soph,jr - excluded srs as they will be gone in 2007), their 2007 early signings include 10 more pitchers and 3 more catchers. The last 2 years they have signed a few late ones too.

So where does that leave all these kids that come to school with stars in their eyes? Quite a few will be shown the door before they ever get started.

TDF

There are 24 pitchers this fall at my sons school. Some are told what is expected, some are told to give it their best shot, but no one is promised a roster spot.

quote:

So where does that leave all these kids that come to school with stars in their eyes? Quite a few will be shown the door before they ever get started.

The redshirts at Jr's school are offered a shot at juco(s) if they want. Surprisingly most kids stay and wait their turn.

The more I think about it the more I think it's just a prelude to the real world and learning to make your way. But you are right. It is a personal decision whether to take the chance and risk the numbers game.

ClevelandDad's son is in the same boat as my kid, who took upper classmens (according to them) innings last year. It's a very Darwinian process and the reason I don't like to watch those NAtional Geographic shows with crocodiles and Orca whales lunching by the shoreline.

WOW!
And all I was trying to point out by referencing Kentucky's recruiting class was that the coach states:
“It is a very high caliber class, but I’m sure the major league draft will be a factor in June as always."
Seventeen recruits looks like a lot, but if you lose 4-5 to the draft, then the group doesn't seem as big. The coach usually has a feel for who is college material and who isn't. He also knows what he needs in the future, be it more pitching, power hitting, etc.
I have no connection to Kentucky's program. I'm just speculating that many coaches over recruit, knowing they won't see every one of these players next fall. Like the above posts state, its a gamble for the players to join a program like this, but some players choose this route.

Once again, I go on record as saying I understand both sides of this issue, but wish that recruiting limits existed. Just generating conversation here, not condoning stockpiling!

KCBaseball,
You did strike up a debate and get everyone to thinking...Which is good