High Academic D3s

We have or have had members with sons at at least 5 of those schools. If you search  the site you should find some threads.

Here are some quick stats on the NESCAC Conference

2019 Conference Comparison

2018 Conference Comparison

2017 Conference Comparison

Gov’s son is at Middlebury. Recall him being high on the school and the program. May want to PM him.

CBRecruiting correct...happy to answer any questions via PM.  Son was pursuing Ivy's, had narrowed his search to Midd, Amherst, and JH.  Went through prereads, coaches saw him plenty of times.

I've detailed our experiences in a number of threads...use the Search button above right.

Son was being recruited to Mid. It's rep as a feeder school to Wall street fit my son's ambitions. Loved the weight room when he toured. The field was mediocre, but apparently a new field is being built( or is already  built?). Coach seemed fine, but ultimately chose not to go because it's relative isolation from us, and  better fits elsewhere.

 Tufts and it's coach have been somewhat controversial on here, but I have no personal experience.

 If my younger son, who is of a an Engineering bent, was accepted to Caltech or MIT then I/he wouldn't give a crap about the baseball program, just be thrilled to be at such a fantastic school. Those two are certainly the academic outliers on your list, with their focus on STEM. I would try to pin those coaches down on your son's realistic chances of admission there, and what boost, if any, his talent as a player will give him. 

I would guess that Tufts and Pomona would have the most competitive teams, year after year. 

Phanatic2008WS,

My son was recruited/offered by a couple of these schools.  For him, it was about his major (engineering) then baseball.  He rated one of these NESCAC schools engineering programs above an Ivy that offered.  He ended up going to a different Ivy (best fit for him based on his major), but I think the academic major should be the focus especially since you are investing a large sum of money in that education.  

I like 57Special's point, but I would apply it to just about any D3 HA school choice not just MIT and Caltech.   If the major is undecided, then look at the availability of internships or the number of students that go onto grad school, medicine, law or whatever it is your son wants to do.  Baseball can be a big part of those 4 years, but probably won't be after graduation.  All of these schools can provide a world class education & experience but it has to work for your son when he graduates.

As always, JMO.   Good luck! 

PS..I would take Gov up on his offer.  

57Special:  turf field slated for next season, initial funding in place, work has been done improving area around field to prep for turf.  HC Leonard solid as they come as a coach along with his depth of playing experience at UConn, Cape League, Red Sox Milber…

While Midd is a bit isolated, still 40mi south of Burlington with great flight access, beautiful campus in its own 2000 acre valley perfectly adjacent to the town of Middlebury, offering plenty of dining options.  My son spent plenty of summers and winters in Colorado so he felt at home with Middlebury.  The Field House is incredible - my sons office.

On average Tufts and Pomona have had stronger teams.  Amherst was solid under former HC Brian Hamm, Middlebury improved last year providing Tufts great competition (I think Midd beat them in over half the games).  Midd will be stronger this year.  HC Leonard is on a mission, as well as the players he recruited. 

Amherst was too small for son along with the nth degree of diversification.

Son liked JH but surrounding area kind of bothered him...still a great campus with facility's.

Edit: cleaned up a sentence, was driving me crazy...

Someone on this board had a son play at Tufts. It didn’t work out for the kid. The dad had nothing nice to say about John Casey. 

The first time I saw John Casey coach he was a pure horse’s arse. He did something on the field that forced him to apologize to the opposing school president, coach, a player and his parents. 

Over the years I’ve known kids who played for Casey. They all swore by him. He’s a bit rough around the edges. But the players I knew who played for him says he has his player’s back.

What really impressed me was a kid I chatted with. He lost his starting job after two seasons and still has nothing negative to say about Casey. 

Bowdoin has a great coach (Connolly) and a horrible baseball facility. Colby has great facilities and a terrible baseball program. You go to Bowdoin and Colby for academics and to get into a top grad school. You don’t go there for baseball unless you enjoy being a popsicle in April. Bowdoin is in Brunswick. It’s a quaint town a half hour from Portland where there’s a lot to do. Colby is in Waterville. Its a nothing town an hour north of Portland. Waterville is so dead the school managed to get property on Main Street and build a dorm.

MIT has a good baseball program. They made the Northeast regional last season. I chatted with some parents and players. The kids are more normal than I would have expected.

You don’t go to Cal Tech to win baseball games. Their baseball history is abysmal. Last season they went 8-26. That’s a big season for them. A kid from our high school who pitched six mop up innings senior year was a star two way player (relative to Cal Tech) for them a few years ago.

Academically any one of the schools on your list is a solid choice.  

Gov posted:

57Special:  turf field slated for next season, initial funding in place, work has been done improving area around field to prep for turf.  HC Leonard solid as they come as a coach along with his depth of playing experience at UConn, Cape League, Red Sox Mil

Phantatic2008WS

FWIW, I will add that the Middlebury pitching coach is awesome.  My son, a 2020 LHP, used him for a year before he finished his run at MLB and started coaching at Middlebury.  Devin Burke was my sons fav pitching coach.  So if your son is a pitcher I recommend the pitching coach highly.   Looks like you are looking all NESCAC though and not just Middlebury.  Lots of good options. 

They are all great options, can't go wrong academically.  If he's a 2020, he has to decide soon (now?) about Early Decision; how many of the coaches have offered him support, and what kind?  How likely is he to get in to the schools without ED?  I'd go with that first, because coach support in ED can also be an indicator of baseball prospects once he gets there (if that matters).  Other than that, did he visit?  Go with gut feeling about coach.  And weather.

Last year at this time I asked about how to choose, got lots of great advice:

https://community.hsbaseballwe.../topic/how-to-decide

As a west coaster...I say go with the weather!  In all seriousness, those are all great options.  My son plays in the SCIAC (Pomona & CalTech play there), its tough to beat the combination of weather, competitiveness and education you can get.  With access to LA, Orange County and San Diego its a winner.  Pomona-Pitzer def has the better baseball team, but he can write his own ticket to almost anywhere after graduating from CalTech.  My son also looked at east coast schools and ultimately I'm glad he didn't go that route.  The added expense of travel and not being able to see him would have been heartbreaking.  

I second what SOCAL OG says about the SCIAC, and would add that 2 of the last 3 D3 National Champions are from that conference.

Also, I am not aware of another conference where all 9 teams are so close to each other geographically.  No long bus rides or overnight trips  is a huge plus IMO.  And unless your coach chooses to do a road trip, the teams' non-conference games are all at home, as teams from the Northeast and Midwest come to CA for early games.

 The MIAC is pretty close together, and no LA traffic. 

Midd plays a double header vs Swat in March, then plays three games in Austin, Texas, then a spring break of games in the Orlando, Fla area.

Phanatic: hopefully you area aware that kids which were pursuing Ivy's have all pretty much found out if they're getting an offer.  If no offer these kids are actively pursuing their plan B schools, and these plan B HA D3 HC's are trying to get those players to their campuses.  And, a lot of these kids are top picks for the HA D3's.... So offers of support are active right now.   If any of the HA D3's you mentioned are seriously interested in your son he would know about it right now!!!!  Otherwise your son may be one of the secondary slot or band B players.  Hopefully your son has a strong ACT/SAT/GPA profile which will make it easier for the HC to support him through admissions.

Good luck

Good point, GOV. At this point, HC and RC's who truly want your player will be making it blindingly obvious. Any hint of vagueness about their "offer" is a message that you should not ignore, no matter how much it might run counter to your wishes or dreams. It's really late to be talking about adding on to your academic resume, as most schools will want to you to apply ED. 

Almost all of the northern schools have their spring break down south, and get in a lot of work and games. Hell, a lot of HS's around here do, also.

I will add a 3rd to Socal OG and JCG and say you should definitely seriously consider both Caltech and Pomona-Pitzer if they are interested.  2017 was actively recruited by PP and did the campus visit, watched an intra-squad game, had lunch with the team, and even attended a Physics class.  The HC is very respected and a straight shooter and was definitely sincere in his interest.

Unfortunately for us, no financial aid was available because FASFA assumes we are "rich" based on an income that is barely middle class in high-cost LA, and the HC noted no merit money is available either (as he noted, all the kids on campus would qualify for it).  So I played the "bad cop" and told him we just could not afford $250K over 4 years no matter how great the education and experience would be.  He told me my son was not the first recruit he lost based on that reason and won't be the last.  But if you can make the $$ work, PP is definitely something you should consider for all of the reasons noted (I also seem to recall the HC saying a lot of the games are Saturdays/Sundays so as to avoid missing classes and the bad LA traffic--another plus for the SCIAC with schools that are demanding academically).

Backstop22 posted:

I will add a 3rd to Socal OG and JCG and say you should definitely seriously consider both Caltech and Pomona-Pitzer if they are interested.  2017 was actively recruited by PP and did the campus visit, watched an intra-squad game, had lunch with the team, and even attended a Physics class.  The HC is very respected and a straight shooter and was definitely sincere in his interest.

Unfortunately for us, no financial aid was available because FASFA assumes we are "rich" based on an income that is barely middle class in high-cost LA, and the HC noted no merit money is available either (as he noted, all the kids on campus would qualify for it).  So I played the "bad cop" and told him we just could not afford $250K over 4 years no matter how great the education and experience would be.  He told me my son was not the first recruit he lost based on that reason and won't be the last.  But if you can make the $$ work, PP is definitely something you should consider for all of the reasons noted (I also seem to recall the HC saying a lot of the games are Saturdays/Sundays so as to avoid missing classes and the bad LA traffic--another plus for the SCIAC with schools that are demanding academically).

You are correct about the schedule.  Typically, they play Friday & double header on Saturday which is great for studies and for parents!  I can catch two games on a Saturday...its awesome.  

Thanks to all for this really information thread. I have read all responses...thansk for the charts, advice about specific schools, regional information (we are on the East Coast). Also, appreciate the caution about the seriousness of offers considering the timeline for 2020s. Bottom line appears to be - all good HACs. The two engineering schools stand out due to the concentrations. 

A few more questions - couple based on the above responses:

1. Any insight into relative pros and cons about Williams and Haverford? Those two schools did not get any feedback per my reading. Both HCs have been there a while, although different conferences. 

2. At couple schools - top choices I might add - son has been told to get admissions and then he is on the team. Does anyone have experience with that? Do we do that if the fit is right - in which case we would need to pass up on a couple strong schools in that list, where HC is ready to support through admissions? This is a tough one...

My experience with kids I coached and others I’ve known over the years on this board is if the D3 coach really wants a kid he tells them to apply ED and the coach helps grease the ride through admissions. The coach can usually help the four to six players he wants the most. 

If a kid is told get accepted and you’re on the team it’s a crap shoot. It’s less of a crap shoot for pitchers. Velocity on a gun is velocity no matter where it’s registered.

I coached a kid who got this offer. He got some playing time over the years. But he never started. He was good enough to be rostered. But not good enough to play regularly. He hit about .200 in about fifty career at bats over four years. 

He enjoyed being part of the team. He got a great degree. He walked into a great job where he summer interned one summer. 

57special posted:

 The MIAC is pretty close together, and no LA traffic. 

 

Fair point!  And some good schools.  A bit chilly up there though. 

I'll address #2 - That statement "get admissions and he is on the team" is typical of the can't-lose position of the schools.  If a school carries a large roster and/or a JV squad, it is easy for them to assure a player "he is on the team".  You may want to dig deeper with questions asking about specifically where they see the player fitting/contributing on the team and when.  Of course, there are no promises, but the more specific the dialog, the more light is shed on where your player will most likely fit on the team.  Of course, seeing them play, if possible, would be a huge plus as well.

Williams is a GREAT school, often slotted as the top liberal arts college in the country.  3 of my closest HS friends went there and they loved it. It's in a lovely little town, but that town is in the middle of nowhere. I don't know that much about Haverford, but it's closer to civilization, and it's got an admit rate more than twice that of Williams. For both of those reasons, I wouldn't think many students would be choosing between those two schools, though maybe some Williams applicants would use Haverford as a backup.

Oh, and there is this: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/0...nce-in-baseball.html

BTW I think there is a recent Williams thread here saying basically that the WC coach recruits late and is hard to pin down.

Thanks again....just to clarify..... "you get admission and you are on the team" applies to top 5 schools (Ivy/HAD3). The spots may be already given to pitchers, catchers, etc....they value you enough, know enough about you thru the recruiting, and think you are good enough to be on the team, but not have any available "support spots" to take to admissions.

1-  In terms of education, Williams is the best of the best. It is somewhat isolated, but has a relatively large enrollment for a LAC. Very, very sought after. I know nothing about their BB team.

Haverford is still very good, but a tier down academically, IMO. In suburban Philly, very small enrollment, but is very close to Bryn Mar. I've heard some odd stories about their athletic admissions, though not necessarily with their baseball team. their baseball team is ok, but the big dog in their conference is JHU. Swarthmore(another academic heavy hitter) has been pretty good recently, also.

2- I don't really know what you mean here. If the  HC is not prepared to support you in the ED round...well, that says it all, IMO. He doesn't think your son is worthy of a slot. Most of the schools mentioned have miniscule acceptance rates. They turn down students with perfect or near perfect marks and scores regularly. If you are applying to one of these schools in the ED round then be aware that is the case. Baseball talent is that extra something that gains you admittance into one of the prestigous schools. Don't waste that bullet in your gun if it won't help you in the ED round. It only fires once, in most cases.

My son took a chance on a HA D3school in the ED round that had actually gone out of their way to recruit him. He hadn't even considered going there, but they changed his mind. After going through their extensive ED application, he ended up being deferred. Luckily, he had a very good plan B, and plan C for the EDII/RD round, and it all worked out very well for him.

JCG posted:

57special posted:

 The MIAC is pretty close together, and no LA traffic. 

 

Fair point!  And some good schools.  A bit chilly up there though. 

But do the rads on our cars overheat in gridlock traffic? Noooooooooo... If it was me, I'd be all over going to a school where it's warm. Eldest son insisted on going to a school in the north, so he didn't overheat.

Re weather ...

I’ve never forgotten a comment my daughter made fifteen years ago during softball recruiting. We were walking across a windy parking lot at Boston College in February. My daughter turned to me and said, “What we’re you thinking when you moved us from Southern California? Does this look like UCSB to you?”

Phanatic2008WS posted:

2. At couple schools - top choices I might add - son has been told to get admissions and then he is on the team. Does anyone have experience with that? Do we do that if the fit is right - in which case we would need to pass up on a couple strong schools in that list, where HC is ready to support through admissions? This is a tough one...

Do you have confidence that he would get in to any of these schools without coach support, and would he be happy at that school?  Of course, there's no way to really know, but unless he has another strong talent or other hook, keep in mind that schools will be admitting smart athletes from the coaches' ED lists, and might not think that they need another smart athlete from the RD applicant pool. 

Also, if the coach has told you, based on a pre-read, that his grades/scores are o.k., that probably means for ED with coach support.  It does not necessarily mean it would be o.k. in the regular applicant pool, especially given the admission rates for most of these schools (8-26%). 

If I read you right, you are saying that there's enough interest at Ivy-type schools that he wants to take his chances applying to a bunch of them RD, and hoping he gets in to at least one school where the coach has interest.  It could work, or it could backfire - does he have another backup that is less selective than all the ones you have listed?

RJM posted:

Re weather ...

I’ve never forgotten a comment my daughter made fifteen years ago during softball recruiting. We were walking across a windy parking lot at Boston College in February. My daughter turned to me and said, “What we’re you thinking when you moved us from Southern California? Does this look like UCSB to you?”

Lol...just last week my son and his roommate (from Boston) were already planning out thanksgiving break.  Last year we spent it at the beach eating & surfing all day.  My son asked if he was going back to Boston for break and his reply was "hell no, I'm never going back if I dont have to!"

anotherparent posted:

Phanatic2008WS posted:

2. At couple schools - top choices I might add - son has been told to get admissions and then he is on the team. Does anyone have experience with that? Do we do that if the fit is right - in which case we would need to pass up on a couple strong schools in that list, where HC is ready to support through admissions? This is a tough one...

Do you have confidence that he would get in to any of these schools without coach support, and would he be happy at that school?  Of course, there's no way to really know, but unless he has another strong talent or other hook, keep in mind that schools will be admitting smart athletes from the coaches' ED lists, and might not think that they need another smart athlete from the RD applicant pool. 

Also, if the coach has told you, based on a pre-read, that his grades/scores are o.k., that probably means for ED with coach support.  It does not necessarily mean it would be o.k. in the regular applicant pool, especially given the admission rates for most of these schools (8-26%). 

If I read you right, you are saying that there's enough interest at Ivy-type schools that he wants to take his chances applying to a bunch of them RD, and hoping he gets in to at least one school where the coach has interest.  It could work, or it could backfire - does he have another backup that is less selective than all the ones you have listed?

Correct....would it make sense to take up the offer with a top 5 ranked school, whose influential coach has told you to sort thru options with other schools that "guaranteed admission and roster spot" and then if still interested in his school to get in touch so he can discuss about admission and a spot on the team. I agree there is a risk involved....the back up options will be schools that offered admission support and roster spots, but were either told to wait or turned down to apply to this school. The risk being if they would still have spots for you...

SoCal OG posted:

RJM posted:

Re weather ...

I’ve never forgotten a comment my daughter made fifteen years ago during softball recruiting. We were walking across a windy parking lot at Boston College in February. My daughter turned to me and said, “What we’re you thinking when you moved us from Southern California? Does this look like UCSB to you?”

Lol...just last week my son and his roommate (from Boston) were already planning out thanksgiving break.  Last year we spent it at the beach eating & surfing all day.  My son asked if he was going back to Boston for break and his reply was "hell no, I'm never going back if I dont have to!"

The comment sounds very familiar. I believe I said it. But life changes. Goals change. What matters changes. Responsibilities change.

I lived in Maine from 3rd to 7th grade. I was adamant I would never go back except in the summer. I never planned on living in MA again after living in Southern CA.

... he types from a Dunkin in Falmouth, ME. I’ll head south (Nahant, MA) for the winter. .  Then I’ll head for the airport once a month from January through April. 

57special posted:

 

My son took a chance on a HA D3school in the ED round that had actually gone out of their way to recruit him. He hadn't even considered going there, but they changed his mind. After going through their extensive ED application, he ended up being deferred. Luckily, he had a very good plan B, and plan C for the EDII/RD round, and it all worked out very well for him.

Can you expand here a bit?  I assume you are saying the HC didn't say he would use one of his chits for your son but had interest in your son so your son applied ED?  

saw at least 2 kids commit to Middlebury today, so if that's on your list, may want to update your research...

Phanatic: I’m just gonna confirm much of what’s been shared above, and maybe amplify some of it.

I’ve had two sons go through the HA D3 baseball admissions gauntlet at many of the schools mentioned in this thread. One is a jr. now at a NESCAC school, the other is a first year at a Centennial Conference school.

The oldest had offers WITH crystal clear coach support—“you are one of my slots”—from four schools you mentioned. Pre-reads came back positive at each school, Which means, as I’m sure you know, that admissions told each coach that son would be admitted if he maintained his current grades and had no conduct issues. He visited each school, picked one, applied ED, got in, and earned a starting spot right away. Piece of cake.   

#2 had coach support at five schools on your list, but none of them were among his top two choices. Coaches at the top two liked him but not enough to use a slot on him. Promised him a roster spot if he got in. #2 wanted to apply (one ED, one EA) to those two anyway which was nerve wracking and with good reason. Gave up a sure thing to take his shot at twin dream schools. He didn’t get into either one of them even though he was at or above their median grades/SAT. So he applied RD to a bunch of other schools on your list including a couple Ivy’s (what the heck, why not?). He also applied to two of the schools that had earlier offered coach support. Those coaches were still very interested but were clear that they could no longer offer any support at all.

Miraculously he got into both, but they were the ONLY HA schools he got into so we’re not sure if those coaches still put in a good word for him with admissions. I think they probably did.

Lessons I learned: if coach is NOT giving support then no matter how brilliant a kid is the acceptance rates for him are gonna be the same as they are for any other applicant who doesn’t have support.  It doesn’t matter if the grades and scores fit the school’s profile, admission is gonna be a crap shoot. 

Your list is impressive. I’d have him ignore the maybes, as long as he’s drawn to one of the places that have offered support. If he can apply EA instead of ED, obviously he’ll have more flexibility.

Sorry this got so long.

Phanatic, that is some serious wisdom gleaned from experience by Smoke.   You came to the right place.

smokeminside posted:

Phanatic: I’m just gonna confirm much of what’s been shared above, and maybe amplify some of it.

I’ve had two sons go through the HA D3 baseball admissions gauntlet at many of the schools mentioned in this thread. One is a jr. now at a NESCAC school, the other is a first year at a Centennial Conference school.

The oldest had offers WITH crystal clear coach support—“you are one of my slots”—from four schools you mentioned. Pre-reads came back positive at each school, Which means, as I’m sure you know, that admissions told each coach that son would be admitted if he maintained his current grades and had no conduct issues. He visited each school, picked one, applied ED, got in, and earned a starting spot right away. Piece of cake.   

#2 had coach support at five schools on your list, but none of them were among his top two choices. Coaches at the top two liked him but not enough to use a slot on him. Promised him a roster spot if he got in. #2 wanted to apply (one ED, one EA) to those two anyway which was nerve wracking and with good reason. Gave up a sure thing to take his shot at twin dream schools. He didn’t get into either one of them even though he was at or above their median grades/SAT. So he applied RD to a bunch of other schools on your list including a couple Ivy’s (what the heck, why not?). He also applied to two of the schools that had earlier offered coach support. Those coaches were still very interested but were clear that they could no longer offer any support at all.

Miraculously he got into both, but they were the ONLY HA schools he got into so we’re not sure if those coaches still put in a good word for him with admissions. I think they probably did.

Lessons I learned: if coach is NOT giving support then no matter how brilliant a kid is the acceptance rates for him are gonna be the same as they are for any other applicant who doesn’t have support.  It doesn’t matter if the grades and scores fit the school’s profile, admission is gonna be a crap shoot. 

Your list is impressive. I’d have him ignore the maybes, as long as he’s drawn to one of the places that have offered support. If he can apply EA instead of ED, obviously he’ll have more flexibility.

Sorry this got so long.

Smoke- Thanks. That’s great insight, especially coming as a primary experience. Similar to where we find ourselves here. The dream schools are not yet offering full support. One needs a better SAT by 30 points and a slightly better Subject test score. Other HAD3 have offered support - in that couple are worth considering - but they are not as perfect an academic fit as the “dream fits”. So a decision will need to be made. You offer a good suggestion of EA versus ED. Need to explore this if it would work. Do not know much about EA and it’s pros and cons. It’s our hope that the schools that really love him and are willing to support will still be there if we end up needing them. Thanks again. 

Where does your son want to go?  Or more to the point, what's his second choice? Is he willing to lose that opportunity, for the chance of the first choice?

He should call the top-5 school and ask the coach point-blank how likely he thinks he is to get in on his own.  The coach surely has an idea based on his transcript/scores.  If he asks, tell that coach what schools have offered admissions support.

BTW, recent thread on Haverford:

https://community.hsbaseballwe...c/haverford-1?page=1

anotherparent posted:

Where does your son want to go?  Or more to the point, what's his second choice? Is he willing to lose that opportunity, for the chance of the first choice?

He should call the top-5 school and ask the coach point-blank how likely he thinks he is to get in on his own.  The coach surely has an idea based on his transcript/scores.  If he asks, tell that coach what schools have offered admissions support.

BTW, recent thread on Haverford:

https://community.hsbaseballwe...c/haverford-1?page=1

Phanatic2008WS posted:

anotherparent posted:

Where does your son want to go?  Or more to the point, what's his second choice? Is he willing to lose that opportunity, for the chance of the first choice?

He should call the top-5 school and ask the coach point-blank how likely he thinks he is to get in on his own.  The coach surely has an idea based on his transcript/scores.  If he asks, tell that coach what schools have offered admissions support.

BTW, recent thread on Haverford:

https://community.hsbaseballwe...c/haverford-1?page=1

 

Thanks. The issue is the other schools without support at the moment are perfect academic fits. The ones who have offered support are great LA schools but majors could be bit of a stretch. 

Agree on asking the coaches about chances on admission on own and go from there. 

Still a tough choice after working so hard!

thanks also for the thread on Haverford 

You might also want to look at this recent thread:

https://community.hsbaseballwe...30#54377430071207030

Phanatic, this may be something you already are well aware of, but...  These days, admission to top-tier academic schools is radically different than when those of us with HS-age kids were applying.  Your son may have straight As and a 99th percentile ACT, but I do not exaggerate when I say that may not gain admission at any of the schools discussed in this thread.  Williams and Haverford, for instance, both have ACT means of ~33.  That is high 98th to low 99th percentile.  They turn down many kids with phenomenal transcripts and test scores,  That is why a coach's 'tip' for recruited athletes at a HA D3 is so valuable--it means a kid who has the academic credentials for admission gets in, rather than having a 10% or 20% chance.  

Ultimately your son should choose the right school for him based on many factors, of course, not just baseball.  But I would not assume he will be admitted as a non-athlete ED applicant at very HA schools (unless there is s building named after your family on campus).  You need a Plan B.  And Plans C and D, possibly more.  I say this as someone who saw one of their kids with a 3.9, a 34 ACT, multiple varsity sports, etc. get turned down at the majority of HA schools applied to (although things turned out OK, as they almost always do for good students who cast a fairly wide net). 

When a kid doesn't get coach's support and needs to run the admissions gauntlet as a regular student, the deck is actually stacked AGAINST the kid.

Why? Because (usually) the primary EC is baseball. Remove that EC and most resumes look pretty sparse compared to other non-athlete kids.

While non-athlete Johnny was feeding the homeless/competing in science fairs/writing books of poetry/interning for Senator X/working to fund his college education, player Sammy was practicing/showcasing/taking lessons/developing his game. Now, because the player isn't getting coach support - by definition he isn't in the top of his chosen HS "passion." Meanwhile, Johnny got a blue ribbon in science fair/poetry, etc. and has been recognized (by someone) as achieving something in his passion. So, in comparing one to the other, the athlete isn't as accomplished. 

Better write spectacular and compelling essays because that athlete with  a 3.9 and 34 ACT is competing against a whole cadre of 3.9 and 34 ACT hopefuls.

Just to add: Don’t make the mistake I did with my oldest and assume that bc your kid is in the top quartile (or decile) for scores and grades at a highly selective school, he will likely get in. Having the scores and grades maybe takes you from a 10% chance to a 20% chance—the odds are still fairly long. And Goosegg’s point is a good one—if baseball is your kid’s main activity, then his resume may look fairly thin otherwise. 

Finally, it is a natural human tendency to think “if I have a 20% chance (one in five), then if I apply to 5 schools, that means I have to get in to at least one of them.”  But probability doesn’t work that way. Each application has the same one in five chance. If you flip a coin and it comes up heads ten times in a row, there is still a 50% chance of heads on the 11th flip. 

Goosegg posted:

When a kid doesn't get coach's support and needs to run the admissions gauntlet as a regular student, the deck is actually stacked AGAINST the kid.

Why? Because (usually) the primary EC is baseball. Remove that EC and most resumes look pretty sparse compared to other non-athlete kids.

While non-athlete Johnny was feeding the homeless/competing in science fairs/writing books of poetry/interning for Senator X/working to fund his college education, player Sammy was practicing/showcasing/taking lessons/developing his game. Now, because the player isn't getting coach support - by definition he isn't in the top of his chosen HS "passion." Meanwhile, Johnny got a blue ribbon in science fair/poetry, etc. and has been recognized (by someone) as achieving something in his passion. So, in comparing one to the other, the athlete isn't as accomplished. 

Better write spectacular and compelling essays because that athlete with  a 3.9 and 34 ACT is competing against a whole cadre of 3.9 and 34 ACT hopefuls.

 

 

Goosegg, with all due respect, I don't quite buy your premise.  I agree that HA admissions has gotten ridiculously competitive.  Heck, even state school admissions are highly competitive at many schools.  In CA some Cal States are as difficult as UC's.  I also agree that the escalation of extracurriculars has gotten extreme.  But I have heard from admissions officers that they do value the perseverance and dedication that is demonstrated by a student's 3-4  year commitment to an athletic team, so I don't agree that sports as EC are disregarded by admissions staff when they review applications.

As evidence, consider this: NESCAC and SCIAC  (though not Caltech) field football teams. From what I have heard, due to the size these rosters, coaches can offer support to only a very limited number of players, in some cases, and none in others. And yet somehow enough football players are admitted to field these teams.

That said, any college-bound HS baseball player who is not an absolute stud should be thinking early on about the content of his college applications.  When our 2017 started HS we encouraged him VERY strongly to engage in at least one non-athletic EC to broaden his resume in case he didn't get any help from baseball.  He did, and he actually enjoyed it.

JCG posted

But I have heard from admissions officers that they do value the perseverance and dedication that is demonstrated by a student's 3-4  year commitment to an athletic team, so I don't agree that sports as EC are disregarded by admissions staff when they review applications.

Sure, but they are looking for scientists, artists, musicians, debaters, classics majors, etc.  They get athletes of all sorts from the ED slots given to the coaches, they don't necessarily need more of that kind of student, no matter how dedicated.  I agree they accept students RD who played high school sports, to round out the teams, but perhaps those kids also had a different talent.  The point is, it's much more of a risk than direct coach support, and even that doesn't always work. 

anotherparent posted:

The point is, it's much more of a risk than direct coach support, and even that doesn't always work. 

Oh, absolutely. Agree 100%.

Football requires upwards to 75 players or more; baseball requires app 25. (I believe football gets more slots because of this.)

As we began learning about the college selection process - early 9th grade - we were "warned" about concentrating the EC in sports. Much risk and a corresponding reward.

With over 10% of incoming freshman competing at the NCAA level at these schools, there simply is no need for more kids who focused on athletics - without the corresponding level of success (as demonstrated by being recruited).

In crafting these classes, schools look for kids who were deeply involved in a passion AND developed that passion in a way to stand out when compared to their peers. So, for example, for two kids whose passion was science, the one who won the state fair is viewed differently from one who participated; the kid who was the youth director of the local food bank is viewed differently from the kid who showed up every Saturday to stuff boxes.

(This applies for only the tippy top HAs. In these regular admission pools, only those who distinguished their ECs stand out; all these kids have ECs, but demonstrated success in these ECs is required [along with near perfect grades, the most rigorous curriculum, and near perfect scores]. Also, when computing the chances for success, you need to remove hooked applicants (athletes, legacies, developmental cases). So, an overall acceptance rate of 8% is more like 4% for regular applicants. How can a school discern the difference between the kid who played/worked on his game 30 hours a week and a kid who while playing did the minimum, if the result - no coach support - is the same? [And, in a twist, the kid who did the minimum and played, has more time to develop other ECs.])

It's a put all-your-eggs-into-a-single-basket risk.  While the kid who wasn't all in on baseball has no chance, just being all in doesn't move the needle.

My son says his school's FB team gets no slots. He also says the FB players are among the smartest kids on campus.   Which is saying something.

Goosegg is 100% correct IMHO.  Some of you are looking at this from the wrong perspective.  You need to be thinking of it from the Coach/AD/Admissions perspective.  Coaches are going to recruit the best talent they can get through Admissions period...they are focused on baseball talent that academically qualifies...these recruits are given slots.  Somebody who has academic talent up the ying yang but not enough baseball talent will be passed over or asked to walk-on.   At best they can be told they have a spot on the team if they can get accepted...this is "HA coach-speak" for we can use your academic metrics to boost the overall team numbers.  Sorry, but that is the reality in HA.    Coaches only have so many slots given to them by the AD.  The AD has to balance all the incoming athletes across a number that is given to him/her by Admissions.   After that, it is 100% on the applicant to put their best foot forward with whatever talents they possess. ...there is no wiggle room..no margin whatsoever in the HA Admissions process.   

In my son's case his hook was a 90+ FB and a high school focused engineering program.  This was crystal clear to him when he was applying ED.   His SAT numbers were 50% percentile for many of the HA schools he considered applying to, but that was turned into near 100% due to Coach support and his hooks.   Without baseball and ED application, he would have been extremely lucky to get into the Ivy engineering program he was accepted into.   They had a 7% acceptance rate into the engineering school.   I've told this story before, but I'll say it again.   The Dean of Engineering told the freshmen engineering students at orientation how fortunate they were to be accepted as there was another 7% of students just like them who did not get in.   I fully believe it.  The Ivy process is similar to NESCAC and others, but in almost all cases it is harder because these D3 HA schools have LESS slots than Ivy.

If you don't have the HA coaches support, I wish your sons well as they are going to need it.  Numbers don't lie.

As always, JMO.

anotherparent posted:

JCG posted

But I have heard from admissions officers that they do value the perseverance and dedication that is demonstrated by a student's 3-4  year commitment to an athletic team, so I don't agree that sports as EC are disregarded by admissions staff when they review applications.

Sure, but they are looking for scientists, artists, musicians, debaters, classics majors, etc.  They get athletes of all sorts from the ED slots given to the coaches, they don't necessarily need more of that kind of student, no matter how dedicated.  I agree they accept students RD who played high school sports, to round out the teams, but perhaps those kids also had a different talent.  The point is, it's much more of a risk than direct coach support, and even that doesn't always work. 

This is exactly what an admissions officer told parents about applicants to an extremely selective HA D3 school (9% admission rate 2018).  It's all based on a myriad of factors that change every year.  He said, "the baseball coach may want your son in but we have to balance that against the needs of other programs.  For instance, the band may have abnormal attrition and need several tuba players that year.  Or the girls field hockey team.  So, admissions has to consider the needs of all our our programs during the process." 

We baseball parents suffer from serious tunnel vision when it comes to our kids and their value to academic institutions. Admissions committees at these extremely selective schools have a very different perspective.

The mantra I kept hearing from admissions was "what unique contribution can your child make to our academic community?"  And I'm thinking ... I KNEW I should have made mine do interpretive dance classes on the side!!

I can't really add much if anything to what has already been said by others here. It's all accurate, and you have my Private Message as well. Coach support and EA/ED at these schools is crucial. Son saw it work for and against him at 2 top STEM schools. He's at Caltech as a Freshman now where they are hosting recruits for next year this weekend and the next few weekends. Without the baseball guys as built in friends his college adjustment would be MUCH more difficult and honestly, I don't know if he would have gone to school clear across the country if he didn't have that support from baseball as part of the situation. I can tell you that all of Caltech's sports programs are on the rise, and they may even make the playoffs before too long. There's always been some talent on the baseball team, but in the last 2 recruiting classes they are now adding depth. Fun time to be a part of building something for the kids.

Phan: It’s our hope that the schools that really love him and are willing to support will still be there if we end up needing them.

This is the dilemma. Once the coaches have used their slots on ED applicants they have little or no leverage with admissions on getting more players in. There’s also the added psychological dynamic of whether they’ll still be interested after having been left at the altar, so to speak. My # 2 knows that when he turned down his current coach the first time that Coach went out and got another outfielder that he liked, maybe one he liked as much or more than he liked my son. Who knows where this will end up for my son, but I’m pretty sure his road to starting is tougher now than it would’ve been if he had committed the first time the coach offered.

Sorry to the OP for the thread drift.

I was thinking that both the OP and Smoke show how difficult it can be, even when a student has two or more solid offers, to choose among these great schools.  As has been mentioned, major is a big thing, but I think another is culture, and how athletes fit in an elite school. 

When we were looking at HA D3 schools, among those with mutual interest were Washington U and Swarthmore.  Researching those via College Confidential, here, and via personal contacts, we got the impression that at the former, athletes were an accepted, integral part of the student body, while we saw some indication that at the latter they might be considered as a somewhat separate part of the community.  As it happened we didn't visit either and try to drill down and see if those impressions held up.

Recalling that today due to this thread, that made me think of the Learfield Director's Cup. This is an award for each college level's overall achievement in sports.  Below is the link to the results for the most recent D3 results. If you look you'll see that schools like Williams, Hopkins, Wash U are not only elite colleges, but elite in athletics among D3 schools.  And you can also see that some elite academic schools are not so elite at sports.

I wonder if this data could be useful in helping people discern two things about these schools.  Obviously a high result year in and year out indicates that the colleges place a high priority on the the success of their athletic program, while a low result would tend to indicate the opposite.  From that would it be fair to infer two things?  Athletes at successful programs are well integrated into the student body because they are perceived to be very valuable members of the community.  More importantly to the discussion above, a top 10 liberal arts college isn't going to win a Learfield cup without  a whole lot of good athletes in multiple sports.  Does that mean its admissions department will be inclined to look at athletes favorably, assuming academics are at least on par with other applicants, even when those athletes are not given outright coach support?  

https://nacda.com/documents/20...llupdate.pdf?id=3667

Chico Escuela posted:

Just to add: Don’t make the mistake I did with my oldest and assume that bc your kid is in the top quartile (or decile) for scores and grades at a highly selective school, he will likely get in. Having the scores and grades maybe takes you from a 10% chance to a 20% chance—the odds are still fairly long. And Goosegg’s point is a good one—if baseball is your kid’s main activity, then his resume may look fairly thin otherwise. 

Finally, it is a natural human tendency to think “if I have a 20% chance (one in five), then if I apply to 5 schools, that means I have to get in to at least one of them.”  But probability doesn’t work that way. Each application has the same one in five chance. If you flip a coin and it comes up heads ten times in a row, there is still a 50% chance of heads on the 11th flip. 

As a educator who teaches stats at both HS and college levels, Chico, I appreciate your reference to probability.

Jcg’s comments on culture are really important. 

I know son #1 is at a place which fit him is about as good as it gets in all fronts: academic, social, athletic. He’s found a great balance. 

#2, well it’s too early to tell. He’s become close to a few guys in the team but the srs aren’t as accessible as they are at #1s school. The social aspect is way behind the athletic and academic ones. 

Just another maddening thing about how unpredictable the recruiting/admissions process is.  

Goosegg posted:

When a kid doesn't get coach's support and needs to run the admissions gauntlet as a regular student, the deck is actually stacked AGAINST the kid.

Why? Because (usually) the primary EC is baseball. Remove that EC and most resumes look pretty sparse compared to other non-athlete kids.

While non-athlete Johnny was feeding the homeless/competing in science fairs/writing books of poetry/interning for Senator X/working to fund his college education, player Sammy was practicing/showcasing/taking lessons/developing his game. Now, because the player isn't getting coach support - by definition he isn't in the top of his chosen HS "passion." Meanwhile, Johnny got a blue ribbon in science fair/poetry, etc. and has been recognized (by someone) as achieving something in his passion. So, in comparing one to the other, the athlete isn't as accomplished. 

Better write spectacular and compelling essays because that athlete with  a 3.9 and 34 ACT is competing against a whole cadre of 3.9 and 34 ACT hopefuls.

 

 

I feel like this is an important note for anyone considering HA applications with and without coaches support.  As someone who had his 2016 go ED with coach's support to a mid-level HA school and has a 2020 that has those kind of grades and test scores looking to get into one (or more) top schools.  I can give you the perspective on what it looks like applying to one of these schools in the general application pool - which is what we're considering now vs applying ED to his top choice (as a student only).  

2020 has really built a solid resume and application.  He plays three sports (not baseball) and has the kind of non athletic credentials and accomplishments you don't want to be competing against for admission with a baseball focused resume without a coach's support - including a bio-medical engineering internship at a world renowned cancer center this past summer.   We (and he) are seriously worried about him getting into any of his top choices.  

We spent the summer visiting some of the top northeast schools on 2020's list.  Most of these schools are factories moving 200-300 people around campus 4-5 times a day to see campus and box like dorm rooms (this was not the case at the Ivies we visited).  There were waiting lists for info sessions/tours with people on standby hoping to get in that day.  The attendees were middle school age, HS freshman, Sophs and Jrs from all over the world.  Most, if not all, of them have top gpa and test scores.  I don't know if I can say this strongly enough - the regular application pool is a whole different world you don't want to don't want to dip your toe into if you can avoid it.   

smokeminside posted:

Jcg’s comments on culture are really important. 

I know son #1 is at a place which fit him is about as good as it gets in all fronts: academic, social, athletic. He’s found a great balance. 

#2, well it’s too early to tell. He’s become close to a few guys in the team but the srs aren’t as accessible as they are at #1s school. The social aspect is way behind the athletic and academic ones. 

Just another maddening thing about how unpredictable the recruiting/admissions process is.  

S1 has had a very similar experience to your S1. He spent the first two weeks rooming(they arrive early in mid August before dorms are ready)with a senior who's job he was more or less taking, and was treated great. In his words, they have a kind of Bromance going on. How the seniors treat the young'uns is critical to having an overall good team feel.

A teammate of his who went to a HA D3 that seemed a perfect match? Well, he's already transferred, and has quit BB.

BTW, I know of an Ivy team where there are some pretty gnarly things going on. Being a HA school doesn't insulate them from the world and it's problems.

I feel my daughter's experience in applying to college is instructive. She went the regular admit route.

Academics: Most rigorous curriculum; straight As, 34 ACT, 8 APs (all 5s).

ECs: (school based): two year editor in chief of both Yearbook and Literary Journal (both locally award winning); successfully petitioned CIF to recognize her sport (took over a year) and competed throughout HS (multiple awards)(averaged 20 hrs per week). (Outside school): Two year Youth Director of food bank (one youth director per year); lab internship at UCSD (certified to kill mice [amongst other things]; worked PT to earn money to support her sport (she was paid to shorn horses  for competitions).

Awards: sweepstakes winner local science fair; second place state science fair; first place grand prize winner Intel Science and Engineering Fair. (Winning app 20k in prize money.) Project was done in a HS lab and took two years from beginning to end (parents don't know a thing about science). Granted a patent for the work.

LORs: Lab director, plus the usual teachers and guidance counselor.)

She made it clear that she was going to major in engineering (looking for that female "tip").

She didn't run the table in admissions. (And come to think of it, didnt really sleep that much in HS.)

Cast a wide net - we thought she'd run the table. (Obviously, she was going to get into a HA, but just not all.)

GOOSEGG -  that is amazing.  If all of that isn't enough to get into a school, what is?

3and2Fastball posted:

GOOSEGG -  that is amazing.  If all of that isn't enough to get into a school, what is?

Choose ancestors who donated large sums to the school you want to go to. 

On a slightly more serious note, I was surprised when as part of pre-reads, several HA schools just asked my kid directly whether he was a member of an under-represented minority, a 1st gen college student, or a legacy (parents or grandparents who were alumni).  Those three categories and/or being an athlete are very helpful; otherwise the process essentially is a black box and you really can’t know what will be enough to get an applicant accepted. (For the record, I am not saying I oppose giving admission “tips” to minority or 1st gen students; I was just surprised schools come right out and ask about that.  They wanted to know grades, test scores, and whether my son fit one of the three categories I mentioned. They did want a transcript to verify how challenging the boy’s classes were. But no one asked about other extracurriculars, awards, etc.)

3and2Fastball posted:

GOOSEGG -  that is amazing.  If all of that isn't enough to get into a school, what is?

I’m part of a legacy family at one of these schools. The family goes back six generations to the first graduating class. The alumni house living room was named after my family. I was supposed to be seventh generation.

My kids and I chose not to play D3 ball. I was the only child in my generation. So, there are no longer any living members of the family who attended. I have no idea if there’s any money left in the trust my great grandfather created for the school, nor do I care. 

I know legacies who got in on less than top grades and one who was dumber than a bag of rocks who got in on probation status because his family donated for generations. I used to play touch football with these kids behind the alumni house after football games.

Yet there are students with 4.0 GPA’s and 1550+ SAT’s being rejected because they weren’t born into the right family. Personally I think it’s wrong. But colleges are also a business. 

“member of an under-represented minority”

When the college was transitioning from being all (white, WASP, preppy) male to coed my father, on the alumni board commented a black female from North Dakota was an easy admit.