High Academic D3s

Phanatic, this may be something you already are well aware of, but...  These days, admission to top-tier academic schools is radically different than when those of us with HS-age kids were applying.  Your son may have straight As and a 99th percentile ACT, but I do not exaggerate when I say that may not gain admission at any of the schools discussed in this thread.  Williams and Haverford, for instance, both have ACT means of ~33.  That is high 98th to low 99th percentile.  They turn down many kids with phenomenal transcripts and test scores,  That is why a coach's 'tip' for recruited athletes at a HA D3 is so valuable--it means a kid who has the academic credentials for admission gets in, rather than having a 10% or 20% chance.  

Ultimately your son should choose the right school for him based on many factors, of course, not just baseball.  But I would not assume he will be admitted as a non-athlete ED applicant at very HA schools (unless there is s building named after your family on campus).  You need a Plan B.  And Plans C and D, possibly more.  I say this as someone who saw one of their kids with a 3.9, a 34 ACT, multiple varsity sports, etc. get turned down at the majority of HA schools applied to (although things turned out OK, as they almost always do for good students who cast a fairly wide net). 

When a kid doesn't get coach's support and needs to run the admissions gauntlet as a regular student, the deck is actually stacked AGAINST the kid.

Why? Because (usually) the primary EC is baseball. Remove that EC and most resumes look pretty sparse compared to other non-athlete kids.

While non-athlete Johnny was feeding the homeless/competing in science fairs/writing books of poetry/interning for Senator X/working to fund his college education, player Sammy was practicing/showcasing/taking lessons/developing his game. Now, because the player isn't getting coach support - by definition he isn't in the top of his chosen HS "passion." Meanwhile, Johnny got a blue ribbon in science fair/poetry, etc. and has been recognized (by someone) as achieving something in his passion. So, in comparing one to the other, the athlete isn't as accomplished. 

Better write spectacular and compelling essays because that athlete with  a 3.9 and 34 ACT is competing against a whole cadre of 3.9 and 34 ACT hopefuls.

Just to add: Don’t make the mistake I did with my oldest and assume that bc your kid is in the top quartile (or decile) for scores and grades at a highly selective school, he will likely get in. Having the scores and grades maybe takes you from a 10% chance to a 20% chance—the odds are still fairly long. And Goosegg’s point is a good one—if baseball is your kid’s main activity, then his resume may look fairly thin otherwise. 

Finally, it is a natural human tendency to think “if I have a 20% chance (one in five), then if I apply to 5 schools, that means I have to get in to at least one of them.”  But probability doesn’t work that way. Each application has the same one in five chance. If you flip a coin and it comes up heads ten times in a row, there is still a 50% chance of heads on the 11th flip. 

Goosegg posted:

When a kid doesn't get coach's support and needs to run the admissions gauntlet as a regular student, the deck is actually stacked AGAINST the kid.

Why? Because (usually) the primary EC is baseball. Remove that EC and most resumes look pretty sparse compared to other non-athlete kids.

While non-athlete Johnny was feeding the homeless/competing in science fairs/writing books of poetry/interning for Senator X/working to fund his college education, player Sammy was practicing/showcasing/taking lessons/developing his game. Now, because the player isn't getting coach support - by definition he isn't in the top of his chosen HS "passion." Meanwhile, Johnny got a blue ribbon in science fair/poetry, etc. and has been recognized (by someone) as achieving something in his passion. So, in comparing one to the other, the athlete isn't as accomplished. 

Better write spectacular and compelling essays because that athlete with  a 3.9 and 34 ACT is competing against a whole cadre of 3.9 and 34 ACT hopefuls.

 

 

Goosegg, with all due respect, I don't quite buy your premise.  I agree that HA admissions has gotten ridiculously competitive.  Heck, even state school admissions are highly competitive at many schools.  In CA some Cal States are as difficult as UC's.  I also agree that the escalation of extracurriculars has gotten extreme.  But I have heard from admissions officers that they do value the perseverance and dedication that is demonstrated by a student's 3-4  year commitment to an athletic team, so I don't agree that sports as EC are disregarded by admissions staff when they review applications.

As evidence, consider this: NESCAC and SCIAC  (though not Caltech) field football teams. From what I have heard, due to the size these rosters, coaches can offer support to only a very limited number of players, in some cases, and none in others. And yet somehow enough football players are admitted to field these teams.

That said, any college-bound HS baseball player who is not an absolute stud should be thinking early on about the content of his college applications.  When our 2017 started HS we encouraged him VERY strongly to engage in at least one non-athletic EC to broaden his resume in case he didn't get any help from baseball.  He did, and he actually enjoyed it.

JCG posted

But I have heard from admissions officers that they do value the perseverance and dedication that is demonstrated by a student's 3-4  year commitment to an athletic team, so I don't agree that sports as EC are disregarded by admissions staff when they review applications.

Sure, but they are looking for scientists, artists, musicians, debaters, classics majors, etc.  They get athletes of all sorts from the ED slots given to the coaches, they don't necessarily need more of that kind of student, no matter how dedicated.  I agree they accept students RD who played high school sports, to round out the teams, but perhaps those kids also had a different talent.  The point is, it's much more of a risk than direct coach support, and even that doesn't always work. 

anotherparent posted:

The point is, it's much more of a risk than direct coach support, and even that doesn't always work. 

Oh, absolutely. Agree 100%.

Football requires upwards to 75 players or more; baseball requires app 25. (I believe football gets more slots because of this.)

As we began learning about the college selection process - early 9th grade - we were "warned" about concentrating the EC in sports. Much risk and a corresponding reward.

With over 10% of incoming freshman competing at the NCAA level at these schools, there simply is no need for more kids who focused on athletics - without the corresponding level of success (as demonstrated by being recruited).

In crafting these classes, schools look for kids who were deeply involved in a passion AND developed that passion in a way to stand out when compared to their peers. So, for example, for two kids whose passion was science, the one who won the state fair is viewed differently from one who participated; the kid who was the youth director of the local food bank is viewed differently from the kid who showed up every Saturday to stuff boxes.

(This applies for only the tippy top HAs. In these regular admission pools, only those who distinguished their ECs stand out; all these kids have ECs, but demonstrated success in these ECs is required [along with near perfect grades, the most rigorous curriculum, and near perfect scores]. Also, when computing the chances for success, you need to remove hooked applicants (athletes, legacies, developmental cases). So, an overall acceptance rate of 8% is more like 4% for regular applicants. How can a school discern the difference between the kid who played/worked on his game 30 hours a week and a kid who while playing did the minimum, if the result - no coach support - is the same? [And, in a twist, the kid who did the minimum and played, has more time to develop other ECs.])

It's a put all-your-eggs-into-a-single-basket risk.  While the kid who wasn't all in on baseball has no chance, just being all in doesn't move the needle.

My son says his school's FB team gets no slots. He also says the FB players are among the smartest kids on campus.   Which is saying something.

Goosegg is 100% correct IMHO.  Some of you are looking at this from the wrong perspective.  You need to be thinking of it from the Coach/AD/Admissions perspective.  Coaches are going to recruit the best talent they can get through Admissions period...they are focused on baseball talent that academically qualifies...these recruits are given slots.  Somebody who has academic talent up the ying yang but not enough baseball talent will be passed over or asked to walk-on.   At best they can be told they have a spot on the team if they can get accepted...this is "HA coach-speak" for we can use your academic metrics to boost the overall team numbers.  Sorry, but that is the reality in HA.    Coaches only have so many slots given to them by the AD.  The AD has to balance all the incoming athletes across a number that is given to him/her by Admissions.   After that, it is 100% on the applicant to put their best foot forward with whatever talents they possess. ...there is no wiggle room..no margin whatsoever in the HA Admissions process.   

In my son's case his hook was a 90+ FB and a high school focused engineering program.  This was crystal clear to him when he was applying ED.   His SAT numbers were 50% percentile for many of the HA schools he considered applying to, but that was turned into near 100% due to Coach support and his hooks.   Without baseball and ED application, he would have been extremely lucky to get into the Ivy engineering program he was accepted into.   They had a 7% acceptance rate into the engineering school.   I've told this story before, but I'll say it again.   The Dean of Engineering told the freshmen engineering students at orientation how fortunate they were to be accepted as there was another 7% of students just like them who did not get in.   I fully believe it.  The Ivy process is similar to NESCAC and others, but in almost all cases it is harder because these D3 HA schools have LESS slots than Ivy.

If you don't have the HA coaches support, I wish your sons well as they are going to need it.  Numbers don't lie.

As always, JMO.

anotherparent posted:

JCG posted

But I have heard from admissions officers that they do value the perseverance and dedication that is demonstrated by a student's 3-4  year commitment to an athletic team, so I don't agree that sports as EC are disregarded by admissions staff when they review applications.

Sure, but they are looking for scientists, artists, musicians, debaters, classics majors, etc.  They get athletes of all sorts from the ED slots given to the coaches, they don't necessarily need more of that kind of student, no matter how dedicated.  I agree they accept students RD who played high school sports, to round out the teams, but perhaps those kids also had a different talent.  The point is, it's much more of a risk than direct coach support, and even that doesn't always work. 

This is exactly what an admissions officer told parents about applicants to an extremely selective HA D3 school (9% admission rate 2018).  It's all based on a myriad of factors that change every year.  He said, "the baseball coach may want your son in but we have to balance that against the needs of other programs.  For instance, the band may have abnormal attrition and need several tuba players that year.  Or the girls field hockey team.  So, admissions has to consider the needs of all our our programs during the process." 

We baseball parents suffer from serious tunnel vision when it comes to our kids and their value to academic institutions. Admissions committees at these extremely selective schools have a very different perspective.

The mantra I kept hearing from admissions was "what unique contribution can your child make to our academic community?"  And I'm thinking ... I KNEW I should have made mine do interpretive dance classes on the side!!

I can't really add much if anything to what has already been said by others here. It's all accurate, and you have my Private Message as well. Coach support and EA/ED at these schools is crucial. Son saw it work for and against him at 2 top STEM schools. He's at Caltech as a Freshman now where they are hosting recruits for next year this weekend and the next few weekends. Without the baseball guys as built in friends his college adjustment would be MUCH more difficult and honestly, I don't know if he would have gone to school clear across the country if he didn't have that support from baseball as part of the situation. I can tell you that all of Caltech's sports programs are on the rise, and they may even make the playoffs before too long. There's always been some talent on the baseball team, but in the last 2 recruiting classes they are now adding depth. Fun time to be a part of building something for the kids.

Phan: It’s our hope that the schools that really love him and are willing to support will still be there if we end up needing them.

This is the dilemma. Once the coaches have used their slots on ED applicants they have little or no leverage with admissions on getting more players in. There’s also the added psychological dynamic of whether they’ll still be interested after having been left at the altar, so to speak. My # 2 knows that when he turned down his current coach the first time that Coach went out and got another outfielder that he liked, maybe one he liked as much or more than he liked my son. Who knows where this will end up for my son, but I’m pretty sure his road to starting is tougher now than it would’ve been if he had committed the first time the coach offered.

Sorry to the OP for the thread drift.

I was thinking that both the OP and Smoke show how difficult it can be, even when a student has two or more solid offers, to choose among these great schools.  As has been mentioned, major is a big thing, but I think another is culture, and how athletes fit in an elite school. 

When we were looking at HA D3 schools, among those with mutual interest were Washington U and Swarthmore.  Researching those via College Confidential, here, and via personal contacts, we got the impression that at the former, athletes were an accepted, integral part of the student body, while we saw some indication that at the latter they might be considered as a somewhat separate part of the community.  As it happened we didn't visit either and try to drill down and see if those impressions held up.

Recalling that today due to this thread, that made me think of the Learfield Director's Cup. This is an award for each college level's overall achievement in sports.  Below is the link to the results for the most recent D3 results. If you look you'll see that schools like Williams, Hopkins, Wash U are not only elite colleges, but elite in athletics among D3 schools.  And you can also see that some elite academic schools are not so elite at sports.

I wonder if this data could be useful in helping people discern two things about these schools.  Obviously a high result year in and year out indicates that the colleges place a high priority on the the success of their athletic program, while a low result would tend to indicate the opposite.  From that would it be fair to infer two things?  Athletes at successful programs are well integrated into the student body because they are perceived to be very valuable members of the community.  More importantly to the discussion above, a top 10 liberal arts college isn't going to win a Learfield cup without  a whole lot of good athletes in multiple sports.  Does that mean its admissions department will be inclined to look at athletes favorably, assuming academics are at least on par with other applicants, even when those athletes are not given outright coach support?  

https://nacda.com/documents/20...llupdate.pdf?id=3667

Chico Escuela posted:

Just to add: Don’t make the mistake I did with my oldest and assume that bc your kid is in the top quartile (or decile) for scores and grades at a highly selective school, he will likely get in. Having the scores and grades maybe takes you from a 10% chance to a 20% chance—the odds are still fairly long. And Goosegg’s point is a good one—if baseball is your kid’s main activity, then his resume may look fairly thin otherwise. 

Finally, it is a natural human tendency to think “if I have a 20% chance (one in five), then if I apply to 5 schools, that means I have to get in to at least one of them.”  But probability doesn’t work that way. Each application has the same one in five chance. If you flip a coin and it comes up heads ten times in a row, there is still a 50% chance of heads on the 11th flip. 

As a educator who teaches stats at both HS and college levels, Chico, I appreciate your reference to probability.

Jcg’s comments on culture are really important. 

I know son #1 is at a place which fit him is about as good as it gets in all fronts: academic, social, athletic. He’s found a great balance. 

#2, well it’s too early to tell. He’s become close to a few guys in the team but the srs aren’t as accessible as they are at #1s school. The social aspect is way behind the athletic and academic ones. 

Just another maddening thing about how unpredictable the recruiting/admissions process is.  

Goosegg posted:

When a kid doesn't get coach's support and needs to run the admissions gauntlet as a regular student, the deck is actually stacked AGAINST the kid.

Why? Because (usually) the primary EC is baseball. Remove that EC and most resumes look pretty sparse compared to other non-athlete kids.

While non-athlete Johnny was feeding the homeless/competing in science fairs/writing books of poetry/interning for Senator X/working to fund his college education, player Sammy was practicing/showcasing/taking lessons/developing his game. Now, because the player isn't getting coach support - by definition he isn't in the top of his chosen HS "passion." Meanwhile, Johnny got a blue ribbon in science fair/poetry, etc. and has been recognized (by someone) as achieving something in his passion. So, in comparing one to the other, the athlete isn't as accomplished. 

Better write spectacular and compelling essays because that athlete with  a 3.9 and 34 ACT is competing against a whole cadre of 3.9 and 34 ACT hopefuls.

 

 

I feel like this is an important note for anyone considering HA applications with and without coaches support.  As someone who had his 2016 go ED with coach's support to a mid-level HA school and has a 2020 that has those kind of grades and test scores looking to get into one (or more) top schools.  I can give you the perspective on what it looks like applying to one of these schools in the general application pool - which is what we're considering now vs applying ED to his top choice (as a student only).  

2020 has really built a solid resume and application.  He plays three sports (not baseball) and has the kind of non athletic credentials and accomplishments you don't want to be competing against for admission with a baseball focused resume without a coach's support - including a bio-medical engineering internship at a world renowned cancer center this past summer.   We (and he) are seriously worried about him getting into any of his top choices.  

We spent the summer visiting some of the top northeast schools on 2020's list.  Most of these schools are factories moving 200-300 people around campus 4-5 times a day to see campus and box like dorm rooms (this was not the case at the Ivies we visited).  There were waiting lists for info sessions/tours with people on standby hoping to get in that day.  The attendees were middle school age, HS freshman, Sophs and Jrs from all over the world.  Most, if not all, of them have top gpa and test scores.  I don't know if I can say this strongly enough - the regular application pool is a whole different world you don't want to don't want to dip your toe into if you can avoid it.   

smokeminside posted:

Jcg’s comments on culture are really important. 

I know son #1 is at a place which fit him is about as good as it gets in all fronts: academic, social, athletic. He’s found a great balance. 

#2, well it’s too early to tell. He’s become close to a few guys in the team but the srs aren’t as accessible as they are at #1s school. The social aspect is way behind the athletic and academic ones. 

Just another maddening thing about how unpredictable the recruiting/admissions process is.  

S1 has had a very similar experience to your S1. He spent the first two weeks rooming(they arrive early in mid August before dorms are ready)with a senior who's job he was more or less taking, and was treated great. In his words, they have a kind of Bromance going on. How the seniors treat the young'uns is critical to having an overall good team feel.

A teammate of his who went to a HA D3 that seemed a perfect match? Well, he's already transferred, and has quit BB.

BTW, I know of an Ivy team where there are some pretty gnarly things going on. Being a HA school doesn't insulate them from the world and it's problems.

I feel my daughter's experience in applying to college is instructive. She went the regular admit route.

Academics: Most rigorous curriculum; straight As, 34 ACT, 8 APs (all 5s).

ECs: (school based): two year editor in chief of both Yearbook and Literary Journal (both locally award winning); successfully petitioned CIF to recognize her sport (took over a year) and competed throughout HS (multiple awards)(averaged 20 hrs per week). (Outside school): Two year Youth Director of food bank (one youth director per year); lab internship at UCSD (certified to kill mice [amongst other things]; worked PT to earn money to support her sport (she was paid to shorn horses  for competitions).

Awards: sweepstakes winner local science fair; second place state science fair; first place grand prize winner Intel Science and Engineering Fair. (Winning app 20k in prize money.) Project was done in a HS lab and took two years from beginning to end (parents don't know a thing about science). Granted a patent for the work.

LORs: Lab director, plus the usual teachers and guidance counselor.)

She made it clear that she was going to major in engineering (looking for that female "tip").

She didn't run the table in admissions. (And come to think of it, didnt really sleep that much in HS.)

Cast a wide net - we thought she'd run the table. (Obviously, she was going to get into a HA, but just not all.)

GOOSEGG -  that is amazing.  If all of that isn't enough to get into a school, what is?

3and2Fastball posted:

GOOSEGG -  that is amazing.  If all of that isn't enough to get into a school, what is?

Choose ancestors who donated large sums to the school you want to go to. 

On a slightly more serious note, I was surprised when as part of pre-reads, several HA schools just asked my kid directly whether he was a member of an under-represented minority, a 1st gen college student, or a legacy (parents or grandparents who were alumni).  Those three categories and/or being an athlete are very helpful; otherwise the process essentially is a black box and you really can’t know what will be enough to get an applicant accepted. (For the record, I am not saying I oppose giving admission “tips” to minority or 1st gen students; I was just surprised schools come right out and ask about that.  They wanted to know grades, test scores, and whether my son fit one of the three categories I mentioned. They did want a transcript to verify how challenging the boy’s classes were. But no one asked about other extracurriculars, awards, etc.)

3and2Fastball posted:

GOOSEGG -  that is amazing.  If all of that isn't enough to get into a school, what is?

I’m part of a legacy family at one of these schools. The family goes back six generations to the first graduating class. The alumni house living room was named after my family. I was supposed to be seventh generation.

My kids and I chose not to play D3 ball. I was the only child in my generation. So, there are no longer any living members of the family who attended. I have no idea if there’s any money left in the trust my great grandfather created for the school, nor do I care. 

I know legacies who got in on less than top grades and one who was dumber than a bag of rocks who got in on probation status because his family donated for generations. I used to play touch football with these kids behind the alumni house after football games.

Yet there are students with 4.0 GPA’s and 1550+ SAT’s being rejected because they weren’t born into the right family. Personally I think it’s wrong. But colleges are also a business. 

“member of an under-represented minority”

When the college was transitioning from being all (white, WASP, preppy) male to coed my father, on the alumni board commented a black female from North Dakota was an easy admit.