High Academic -- SAT/ACT and Timing?

#1 Assistant Coach posted:

2019Dad posted:

Goosegg posted:

Schools say they will either take the highest single score or some even superscore by taking the best section scores and adding.

S was told by Ivy coaches before Junior year, which scores would clear the bar. (30 ACT min.)

Goose, that's a good rule of thumb. Someone -- I don't remember who -- on this Board said that for a RHP, if your top velocity and ACT added up to 120, you were in good shape at an Ivy (e.g., 30 ACT and 90 mph).

2019Dad,

That was me.  Just an armchair theory of mine, that an RHP with an ACT of 30 + FB of 90 = 120, and a ticket to just about anywhere you want.  The Golden #120 is what I call it.  It really is the number an RHP seeking HA-D1 school should shoot for, but not 100% necessary.  Mine only got to #118 (sum of his FB and ACT) at the time of his commitment.  I've seen other HA-D1commits (RHPs) with as low as #114 (based on PG posted data, could be old #s too)  But the Golden #120 need to only serve as a goal, a target.  

If an RHP hits it?  Great.  He can pick just about any school he wants.  If he falls short by 2-4pts, he is still in a good position.  #114 could mean 86FB and a 28ACT, still a good position for HA.  D-1 or D-3 would then be question?  But still a door opener at HA, I'd say.

Golden number for an LHP in D-1?  #118?  FB-88, ACT-30, or 87/31?  These are just "door opening" or "conversation starting" numbers. 

Now before someone starts poking holes in my theory, let me reiterate: these are just "door opening" numbers; this is not all it takes to "pick your school."  I realize a 90mph FB is not the only thing being considered,  having secondary pitches, pitchability, etc.  is arguably more important, as is what the needs of team are, etc.  

But an RHP with 90/30, 88/32, 92/28 will get a lot of introductory interest.  And as Fenway points out, the earlier the ACT part of that equation can be plugged in?  The easier life is for everyone involved, especially the RC.

#1 Assistant Coach -- how about a 133 on your Golden #120? LOL, that's what this kid has:

www.latimes.com/sports/highsch...-20170220-story.html

Though if you're topping out at 102 mph, your ACT score becomes less relevant!

Ok......some new developments in my armchair formula called RPI ("Righty Pitcher Index").   As 2019DAD brings to light my previous post that a combo score of #120 (ACT + MPH = 120) is the GOLDEN #120 for serious consideration of high academic schools and Ivys.

Thanks to Hunter Greene and his RPI score of #133 (?????) we here at the home office have decided to add an additional, higher echelon to our RPI scale.  So if your RHP has the following key measurable: 30ACT + 100MPH = #130 he is now in the           PLATINUM #130 level. 

And finally, and most appropriately, if your RHP is able to somehow combine his ACT score with his FB velo for a combined total of #133???? 

Then we here at the home office are willing to name that most elite level,  the GREENE #133 level and with this exclusive GREENE Membership you can go to MLB club for just about any price you want to name. 

GOLDEN LEVEL MEMBERSHIP (combo ACT+VELO score totaling 120)

PLATINUM LEVEL MEMBERSHIP (combo score of 130)

GREENE LEVEL MEMBERSHIP (combo score of 133 or higher)

In our neck of the woods, the SAT is still the norm.  People sometimes take the ACT, but often that's because they heard somewhere that some people do better on one than the other, etc.

First thing to know is, through three test takings, you can take your highest math and your highest verbal score and add them, even if they came from different sittings.  If you take the test a fourth time, however, the scores start getting averaged.  You should therefore understand that you should never have a plan that involves taking the SAT more than 3 times, if that.

Second, it's not helpful to take the SAT as a sophomore.  There are too many things you'll pick up as time passes, so your early SAT score is almost certain to provide a sub-par record for you.  That is, you'll spend one of your three sittings just to get disappointed.

The PSAT is a decent tool to use as a predictor of what your SAT's will ultimately be.  This will help you get an early read on whether you are truly Stanford or Ivy material.  Unfortunately, we live in an era of rampant grade inflation, so for many students, the test scores are a rude awakening that all those A's they've been piling up don't necessarily mean that you've been learning at a high level.  If I hear one more person say, "He's just not a good test taker," I'm going to scream.  (Daniel Tosh has a wickedly funny joke about that old saw.) The problem is not with his test taking.  The problem is that at our local high school, 20+% of each class has a GPA at or above 4.0, and a 3.4 puts you into the bottom half of your class.  The NCAA still credits those grades as passing muster for eligibility, but that doesn't mean Stanford or Princeton are going to be able to get you through admissions.

We do require that our players take the SAT in March of their junior years.  This assures that we have actual numbers in hand before summer play starts at recruiting venues.  It helps us to advise players on where they should and should not be looking.  If the player would need a higher score to get into his goal school, this early score lets you know whether it's reasonable to hold out hope for improvement upon re-testing in October of senior year.  With an intensive review/prep course, it's reasonable to hope for improvement of 100-150 total points on the two-part total.  On the other hand, if you want to go to an Ivy but you have a 3.8 and a 930 score, it's time to revise your list of target schools.

I honestly believe there are schools out there to fit pretty much any player.  The key is to target your recruiting efforts towards reachable goals.  To do that, you have to have some objective data to work with.

Midlo Dad posted:

In our neck of the woods, the SAT is still the norm.  People sometimes take the ACT, but often that's because they heard somewhere that some people do better on one than the other, etc.

First thing to know is, through three test takings, you can take your highest math and your highest verbal score and add them, even if they came from different sittings.  If you take the test a fourth time, however, the scores start getting averaged.  You should therefore understand that you should never have a plan that involves taking the SAT more than 3 times, if that.

Second, it's not helpful to take the SAT as a sophomore.  There are too many things you'll pick up as time passes, so your early SAT score is almost certain to provide a sub-par record for you.  That is, you'll spend one of your three sittings just to get disappointed.

The PSAT is a decent tool to use as a predictor of what your SAT's will ultimately be.  This will help you get an early read on whether you are truly Stanford or Ivy material.  Unfortunately, we live in an era of rampant grade inflation, so for many students, the test scores are a rude awakening that all those A's they've been piling up don't necessarily mean that you've been learning at a high level.  If I hear one more person say, "He's just not a good test taker," I'm going to scream.  (Daniel Tosh has a wickedly funny joke about that old saw.) The problem is not with his test taking.  The problem is that at our local high school, 20+% of each class has a GPA at or above 4.0, and a 3.4 puts you into the bottom half of your class.  The NCAA still credits those grades as passing muster for eligibility, but that doesn't mean Stanford or Princeton are going to be able to get you through admissions.

We do require that our players take the SAT in March of their junior years.  This assures that we have actual numbers in hand before summer play starts at recruiting venues.  It helps us to advise players on where they should and should not be looking.  If the player would need a higher score to get into his goal school, this early score lets you know whether it's reasonable to hold out hope for improvement upon re-testing in October of senior year.  With an intensive review/prep course, it's reasonable to hope for improvement of 100-150 total points on the two-part total.  On the other hand, if you want to go to an Ivy but you have a 3.8 and a 930 score, it's time to revise your list of target schools.

I honestly believe there are schools out there to fit pretty much any player.  The key is to target your recruiting efforts towards reachable goals.  To do that, you have to have some objective data to work with.

Great post - very helpful! I have a 2019 who took the PSAT in Oct 2016 and scored a combined 1420, 210 index. Close to or at the National Merit Semifinalist range. Anyone suggest taking a prep course of any particular kind before he takes PSAT again in the Fall of 2017 as a Junior? Thinking he will do that, and then take SAT in December, and maybe again in March before baseball starts.

He's 6'1", 200 - righty pitcher but throws low 80's as Soph. Hits for power, but slow on bases. 

Love the sincere sharing of opinions and experience on this board. Thanks.

No particular recs, but that's a great score to build from!

Not understanding why you feel the need to take the PSAT again a second time when the initial score was so high? I have always looked at the PSAT as a frosh/soph test that should give a student a realistic idea of how they can expect to score. It will be of no value to schools, and according to college board the score pretty much indicates what the SAT score would be. So why bother? Take the SAT or ACT and get something of actual value for the time spent taking a standardized test (IMO).

SanDiegoRealist posted:

Not understanding why you feel the need to take the PSAT again a second time when the initial score was so high? I have always looked at the PSAT as a frosh/soph test that should give a student a realistic idea of how they can expect to score. It will be of no value to schools, and according to college board the score pretty much indicates what the SAT score would be. So why bother? Take the SAT or ACT and get something of actual value for the time spent taking a standardized test (IMO).

 

The junior year PSAT is how you get National Merit scholarships. With his score as a sophomore -- close to the national merit semifinalist range -- it is well worth taking a shot at that, IMO.

Well there you go! Never had to worry about that with my kids...

Typically, at least in my area, the player's school decides when he takes the PSAT.  He just has to show up when they say to.

The fall junior year test is, as mentioned above, the NMSQT part.  The earlier test is just to give people an idea if they're doing well or maybe in need of help.

I don't think anyone 1400+ is in need of help with their test-taking!  And there's not a lot of room above that to achieve a whole lot of improvement.  But hey, if you're aiming for Stanford or Princeton, pull out all the stops just to be sure.

In contrast, the player decides when to take the SAT.

My two cents:  DO NOT LET YOUR GUIDANCE COUNSELOR TELL YOU WHEN TO TAKE THE TEST.

Your guidance counselor will almost certainly tell you to wait until fall of your senior year, maybe even until December.

Your guidance counselor wants to put you in the cookie-cutter approach that applies to non-athletes.  The likelihood that she understands how baseball's recruiting time table changes the situation is very, very low.

Take the test in March of your junior year, then see where you are.  As you play/showcase over the summer, aim for schools in your wheelhouse or maybe just a slight reach.  If you are good with your spring scores, you're done!  If not, then you will know that you need to plan the time and the money for a strong prep course prior to re-taking the test in the fall.

The NMSQT is the key since he is close to qualifying for that. We would need scholarship $ for schools he'd like to attend like MIT, CalTech, Stanford, etc...! So for that reason alone I think it makes sense to take the PSAT Jr. year and do some kind of prep for it. Maybe an SAT course that would address both PSAT and SAT since he'd be taking that a few months later. 

I've heard that scholarship $ may not be forthcoming from the most elite institutions, even with National Merit Scholar status.  Not that my kid would ever qualify!

With the amount of people who post on this board all gunning for all these HA schools, a LA (low academic) like (insert school name here) is a slam dunk. My kid doesn't aspire to be an engineer, businessman or politician, so aiming for those kind of schools with the tuition associated does not provide good ROI on those tuition dollars.

Most of the elite high academic schools we looked at gave no merit aid at all.....how would they determine who gets it when everyone has the highest stats and everyone is deserving? Only aid available was financial need based. If you are going down this route check each individual school for their specific policy. We were surprised as the "myth" out there is that if your kid is an academic star he will get scholarship money - true many places - but not true for the elite schools.

SanDiegoRealist posted:

With the amount of people who post on this board all gunning for all these HA schools, a LA (low academic) like (insert school name here) is a slam dunk. My kid doesn't aspire to be an engineer, businessman or politician, so aiming for those kind of schools with the tuition associated does not provide good ROI on those tuition dollars.

The "advantage" to the HA schools, from a baseball point of view anyway, is that the better your grades are the more places to play there are, and the more likely it is you'll get the shot, because only so many people can actually get in.  I know for my son, who's no one's idea of pro prospect, the grades are what allowed him to play at the college level while also meeting his academic goals.

Louise posted:

Most of the elite high academic schools we looked at gave no merit aid at all.....how would they determine who gets it when everyone has the highest stats and everyone is deserving? Only aid available was financial need based. If you are going down this route check each individual school for their specific policy. We were surprised as the "myth" out there is that if your kid is an academic star he will get scholarship money - true many places - but not true for the elite schools.

Our experience was that the lower you went down the academic "food-chain", relative to your grades/test scores, the more likely you were to get merit aid, but that in the end it kind of all balanced out with the need based aid and the ultimate costs.  That's coming from a two middle-school teachers as parents economics situation, though, so YMMV if you're in a higher income bracket (and no, we're not those mythical overpaid teachers, either).

Just chiming in with my obviously biased opinion that if a kid can use baseball to gain admittance to an Ivy, unless Stanford calls, the jobs available to these graduates - in every field (art history, finance, banking, consulting, engineering, etc.) are plentiful and starting salaries are well over the COA. (In fact, companies of which I am aware pay these graduates premiums (in bonus and annual salary) when compared to their non-Ivy cohort AT THE SAME COMPANY.)

(Now, if my kid was absolutely, positively, heading to med school, I would say DO NOT go to an Ivy because med school's want a high GPA - a more difficult task to accomplish at an Ivy because of the competition. But keep in mind that the majority of kids change their preliminary choice major, so locking in too early can lead to eliminating viable options.)

As a real world example, D (non-athlete) turned down a 25k (with more possible) scholarship to Miami. Her major remained Chem. E - but she picked up a finance "minor" along the way. She will be heading to Goldman Sachs after graduation - a career path no one expected and which would not have been available from Miami (but which would have been 100k cheaper over 4 years). She will make up that difference - and more - during her three year contract period with GS.

Yes, we reduced our standard of living and dipped into savings (even though we got FA); but, the kids have no loans and are given a pretty significant head start on the hamster wheel of life. While every decision is personal and has unique variables, while we could have found cheaper options for the athlete and non-athlete, the result speaks for itself - two employed kids, earning enough to live well and without any parental financial support, with access to an alumni network almost without peer.

Goosegg,

please tell me they are at least pitching in on a 2-week trip to Tahiti for you! Told my (wanna-be doctor frosh daughter) that is the cost for the bank being available thru college and med school.

Sdr

we joke that the bill will be presented on our timeline and in our chosen amount! And, unlike the commitment you made to your D, we made it crystal clear that grad school will be on their dime. 

Goosegg posted:

Sdr

we joke that the bill will be presented on our timeline and in our chosen amount! And, unlike the commitment you made to your D, we made it crystal clear that grad school will be on their dime. 

Daughter saved mom and dad tuition on undergrad, bless her heart...feel the least we can do is cover the rest of it.

Was at Boston College on college trip today with younger son (non-athlete). Admissions mentioned that there are 30 or 33 "need blind" schools (which they are one)..many of the High Academics. Didn't realize there were "need sensitive" schools who use willingness to pay as a factor.

As for the "new SAT", early indications from my son's HS are that scores are inflated..need a couple years to truly set the bar. Scores which kids were getting into certain schools in past are deferred or not getting admitted. Sort of like the old 1300 is the new 1400.

Replying to 2019DAD's original post.  My 2018LHP son took the ACT in October, just after the start of his junior year.  We didn't think it would be worthwhile taking it much earlier since too much subject matter, particularly math and science, had not yet been covered in his high school curriculum.  This timing worked out well relative to important recruiting events that son attended - Headfirst in August and the PG WWBA Fort Myers tournament in October.  This all seemed to coincide with when the Ivies and high academic mid-majors were starting to pay serious attention to their 2018 recruiting classes.  After the dust settled in the Fall, it really helped to have the ACT score and a strong GPA in hand as schools were comfortable actively recruiting son and making offers.  This may read like it was all planned out - but I assure you it wasn't.  We were surprised at how quickly things moved in the Fall.  Having the ACT score in hand certainly helped to facilitate that.

Take it fall of JR year if ready to get on the Lists. Then for those looking to D3  where only a handful of players can hope to get support compared to all aspiring to play , take it again in SR year if coach can not or chosen not to support you in one of the 2-3 spots. (usually reserved for pitchers/SS ). 1-2 questions more correct questions may make all the difference with admissions for those having to make it on merit alone. 

This post hits home. Have son with 3.9 gpa, all physical & position boxes checked off. Honors & AP classes this year and next . Figuring better than average chance at playing Ivy or Patriot and then we get his Jan SAT score....1160 yesterday...still on the floor.

Waffles&icecream posted:

This post hits home. Have son with 3.9 gpa, all physical & position boxes checked off. Honors & AP classes this year and next . Figuring better than average chance at playing Ivy or Patriot and then we get his Jan SAT score....1160 yesterday...still on the floor.

My daughter was the same scenario, really smart girl, similar GPA and AP class scenario, but just really panicked when it came test time and it showed. She always got 4's and 5's on her AP exams, so I know she could do well, but I chalk it up to test anxiety. What year is your son high calorie screen name?

Waffles&icecream posted:

This post hits home. Have son with 3.9 gpa, all physical & position boxes checked off. Honors & AP classes this year and next . Figuring better than average chance at playing Ivy or Patriot and then we get his Jan SAT score....1160 yesterday...still on the floor.

W&IC,

So, I've been on this board a while and I've seen this before.  Please don't panic.  There is time to get your son some help taking these pesky tests.  It is very rare for a high academic baseball player to have everything needed for "Admission" from the get go....most have to work at it and really want it.   Some need to work on their baseball skills, GPA, etc.  Your son just needs to focus his attention (and comfort) toward taking these standardized tests.

I've seen many overcome this before, so please don't think your son is unique in that regard.   There are all kinds of ways & methods to boost standardized test scores.  It just takes some hard work, adjustment and desire....all the tools he'll need playing baseball at a high academic school anyway.  Good luck!

My above post speaks from personal experience. 2015 was on ivy league/patriot league list. got Sept 1st email's after Stanford camp before JR year .(did not go head first yet). took SAT fall Jr. year told by very reputable  private college councilor  SAT and grades + everything else good enough. It was IF offered position . Long story short 2015 got injured, was of no longer of  interest to those recruiters, started looking at D3 fall of senior year did not repeat  SAT because we were going on advise from year before.  Went EA and RD unsupported  and needed to see financial package before commitment. (subject for different thread) . got in  few wait listed on 1 and missed on some. Don't know for sure but believe if 2015 went back to re prep over summer before Sr. year and retested a higher score may have helped get into more schools or got more money;

As it turns out finally decided on Grinnell  college.  Loves the team and great camaraderie   . The school is very reputable academically, Coach H is a very good man as a coach and Mentor, and they let him also do his second sport in the winter. He is running indoor track this week at the MWC indoor championships. Baseball seasons begin next week. 

Waffles:

Given son's performance in class (3.9) he's definitely capable. I would have him look at the different areas which made up the aggregate score. Sometimes the "verbal" can be broken down--reading , grammar, etc.(I think College Board Offers this) As Fenway noted timing can be a factor. Practice and familiarity with the type of questions can improve scores--there are practice books, and College Board used to give a "Question of the Day" on their website. I have heard that the ACT ties in more with what is taught in school curriculum.   That is an option.

Son's former math teacher gave him a tip which came in handy. When asked if she had any tips on the SAT, she said "Make sure you are answering the questions in the right bubbles (Scantrons)" .  Son had originally skipped a question to go back to and his numbers were off by one ..he caught it upon review. It's possible that happened to your son. There's time to turn it around. I am guessing your son is a junior? Good luck! 

If he has not done so already have him take the ACT....some kids do much better on one test vs the other. Invest in a prep class or tutor - not cheap but well worth it. They can analyze his results and help him in the areas he needs to improve. A 4.0 at one school can be equivalent to a 3.5 at another so colleges do rely on standardized testing results in admissions. Your son will be able to increase his score with a little effort!

It is painful to fork over $1K or more for the test prep classes (which is what it is if he takes both SAT and ACT) but I can confirm from personal experience it pays off.  2017 took the first version of each test with no test prep and did pretty well.  Then took the in-class test prep (he is too lazy to do the online ones) where they made him take 3 practice tests and went over the answers with the group.  His SAT score went up 11% and ACT 7% on the next try.  Based on some merit money award calculations, and how much more they went up when the new numbers went in, the money was well spent.

Did he hate giving up Saturdays/Sunday for a few months?  Yes indeed, but even he admitted it helped!

Yes...painful to fork over $1,000 but compare that to the cost of travel ball, showcases, camps! 

That would be an interesting masters thesis some day for my kids! "Investments in Test Prep and/or Baseball Showcases, Camp and Tournaments: Did I Waste My Parent's Money and My Time"

Great point--too early with my 2017 to determine if any of this was all worth it, but check back in 5 years when he is hopefully an engineer gainfully employed with minimal student debt!  At this point, I can say with a high degree of confidence the test prep funds were worth it.  The travel ball, showcases, multiple campus visits, private lessons--I sure hope it was!!

Backstop22 posted:

It is painful to fork over $1K or more for the test prep classes (which is what it is if he takes both SAT and ACT) but I can confirm from personal experience it pays off.  2017 took the first version of each test with no test prep and did pretty well.  Then took the in-class test prep (he is too lazy to do the online ones) where they made him take 3 practice tests and went over the answers with the group.  His SAT score went up 11% and ACT 7% on the next try.  Based on some merit money award calculations, and how much more they went up when the new numbers went in, the money was well spent.

Did he hate giving up Saturdays/Sunday for a few months?  Yes indeed, but even he admitted it helped!

Agree with this post, its money well spent. Consider it an investment into your kids future. We spent probably double what you spent but never questioned it because we thought it was the right thing since our son had aspirations of going to a high academic school. Most of you know he got into an Academy so all I am paying for now is really just airfare.    

Backstop22, full disclosure is that the test prep (right at $1K) did bump my kids ACT score 2 points...and she is on a full tuition scholarship at a PAC-12 school. So perhaps it was worth it.