High School Baseball

cabbagedad posted:

Steve A. posted:

...

My opinion, again, opinion, is that yes, winning is important & the goal of the team. I get that. I can tell you that the vast majority of people you may think are impressed by your winning really could not care less. ..

 

Steve A, I say this knowing your background... I know you have made a run as a P in the minors and you now coach a 13u.  I predict that in four years, your perspective on this particular point will change.  HS players, parents, boosters, coaches, community supporters, AD's and others are quite interested in winning.  Do the players shake off the loss as soon as they get on the bus or in the car?  Yup, usually.  But there is a huge difference in being part of a winning program and a losing one and HS V is the level where that spotlight starts to shine.  You will come to find that it is quite different as a coach than it was as a player.  

Those same players who shake off the loss in a minute after it happens will remember very clearly 10-20-30-40 years from now if they had the big hit to win league or state or beat their big rival.  Does it matter to the rest of the world?  No.  But it will matter to each of those HS players you eventually coach over the years.  You will also find that in most HS's, this is the top level, the final stop they will reach with baseball.  That's where it may take a while for you to grasp since you made it some levels beyond.  Competing and winning games at this level is the peak of their baseball careers.  It matters to them.  You will be charged with allowing for that to happen.  Along with developing high-character young men, you will want to help them in their goals to win league or state or against cross-town rival.  Letting a young catcher call your V game with that in the balance may not be quite as appealing when you are in the middle of it.  Just a prediction... 

Hi Cabbage, Thanks for the response. Definitely makes sense & I appreciate the perspective. My take on it has probably been too heavily influenced by some of the coaching I have seen that has been way too heavy handed at the younger levels. Again, thanks.

Steve A. posted:

Hi Cabbage, Thanks for the response. Definitely makes sense & I appreciate the perspective. My take on it has probably been too heavily influenced by some of the coaching I have seen that has been way too heavy handed at the younger levels. Again, thanks.

I had the exact same experience and it affected not only my coaching approach but, more so, my parenting.  With my oldest son, I probably took it too far and purposely backed off in a big way with him and competitive sports.  Then, my last son surprised me when he turned out to be on the far other end of the competitive mentality.  I practically couldn't push him hard enough if I tried.  OK, by then, I sorta tried.

Oops, off topic.  Back to who should call games... I think that was the OP.  

Steve A. posted:

Very rational. Makes sense & I understand the perspective. I feel that if the MS Program & JV Program allowed the pitcher / catcher to steer the ship a bit (call & shake pitches), you would have Varsity Players with a far superior understanding of the game & ultimately superior players to those who just nod their head for 7 years & are told how to do it by a coach.

Yes if JV, MS, Travel, LL - anything before HS varsity - would do more teaching then it would be easier for us at the varsity level to turn pitch calling to catchers earlier.  But vast majority of time they do not so we have to do it if that's our philosophy.  It just takes time usually.  I don't want a head nodder and if I'm allowing him to make decisions in other aspects of the game then they won't be a head nodder in life.  It's not a black and white situation for what we turn out in the world.  A kid could have the greatest coach in the world but if he has parents that do everything for him in the rest of his life he's going to struggle in real world.

My opinion, again, opinion, is that yes, winning is important & the goal of the team. I get that. I can tell you that the vast majority of people you may think are impressed by your winning really could not care less. What does matter, ultimately, is the quality of individual your program produces, as you admit. I am simply suggesting that this individual would be better suited to tackle life after your program if they were trusted to think for themselves in pressure situations. There is not going to be a coach calling pitches for him in his job interview when he has to think for himself. The coach will not be there to call pitches for him when he is faced with a difficult scenario at work or in everyday life.

I don't care who is impressed with my win / loss record until I need it to validate my credibility.  I get a new principal then my win / loss record will go towards me keeping my job.  I want to move to a new school my win / loss record may help me get that job.  If Joe Schmo walking down the street isn't impressed with my record I don't really blame him because I don't care what his win / loss record is.  But as cabbage said wins and losses are important to the kids and that matters.  So if the kids win then so do I so my record does matter.  It may help get a kid moving in to pick my school over another one.  

The coach calling pitches for him in the job interview is trying to make a very complicated situation very simplistic.  I don't think that's a fair comparison.  I'm just a very SMALL piece of the ingredients that make a kid into a good young man who can think for himself.  If he has good parents, good teachers then he's probably going to turn out to be good and able to stand on his own even if I call every single pitch he throws.

I employ 6 people. I can tell you that the ones who come to me every 5 minutes asking me to solve their problem (having done nothing on their own) are the ones who do not last. The ones who take the initiative, are not afraid to fail & like to "call their own game," are the stars. The others are generally yes men with limited creativity who are still looking for the coach to call the pitches. 

I completely agree with this but if they are this type to ask for answers instead of figuring it out on their own probably started well before somebody called their first pitch for them.  Besides what if this guy who wants answers given to him is a right fielder?  Am I going to let him call pitches to help him learn to stand on his own?????  I'm just messing with you here but some truth to it.

 

Here's another aspect... our last five varsity program catchers were all pretty good and effective in a similar manner... athletic, good POP, could block, could receive, could hit.  Each was clearly our best option at the position at the time.  Vocal leaders?  One.  Others were anywhere from "took a few years" to "something we'll have to live without".   Thinkers capable of calling a good game?   No.  Four were not even close and didn't have the mindset to want to.  One was the thinker and he was into it.  That one, we tried to groom.  By the start of his senior year, skill set and thought process were coming around.  Torn labrum put a quick end to the process.

So, I know it's not ideal but we are not alone.  Often, in HS ball, the catcher with the best physical skills to play the position doesn't have the desired mindset.   

This will be my last on this subject (well, maybe not). My main objective & opinion here was to suggest that THE PITCHER, at (pick a level) should have the option to shake a pitch & throw his own game. This opinion has clearly met major resistance. In my opinion, the resistance has more to do with the ego of the coach calling the pitches that any other factor. You can pretend it's about winning & on & on but the truth of it is often there is more than 1 pitch that will work in a given scenario if executed properly, with conviction, by the pitcher who had an idea on the pitch before the fingers went down. You could take the 2 best HS Coaches in the Country & have them call a game with the same pitcher & scouting information & the calls would likely be much different. That's it.

My simple, basic philosophy has somehow now developed into my supposed belief that HS Quarterbacks should call their own plays, Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game. The players should be in charge of their own shifts, hit & runs, steals, bunts. I never suggested any of that. Although letting the catcher call em in soft scenarios or small doses will definitely pay dividends down the road for both him & your program. You would then have to coach him up more & discuss the results & selections.

Call your pitches all you want. Steer the ship all you want. Trust your pitcher to shake & throw his own & you will be surprised. If he gives up a rocket, get over yourself. You have called a ton of pitches that went into orbit also. It's the kids game & he will own the result way more than you will.

Well glad to see you read what we posted with an open mind.  But you probably think we are just as close minded as you.

Steve A. posted:

Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game.

You do believe this though, correct? I had a freshman varsity catcher this year. You seem to believe the reason he didn't call pitches was because of my ego. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

(And I had a freshman that threw, too, if that fits your philosophy better.)

coach2709 posted:

Well glad to see you read what we posted with an open mind.  But you probably think we are just as close minded as you.

It's all good. Not everyone sees the world the way I do. This is what makes a conversation interesting. I actually like that. It helps keep my mind "close" as you suggest.

Steve A. posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Steve A. posted:

...

My opinion, again, opinion, is that yes, winning is important & the goal of the team. I get that. I can tell you that the vast majority of people you may think are impressed by your winning really could not care less. ..

 

Steve A, I say this knowing your background... I know you have made a run as a P in the minors and you now coach a 13u.  I predict that in four years, your perspective on this particular point will change.  HS players, parents, boosters, coaches, community supporters, AD's and others are quite interested in winning.  Do the players shake off the loss as soon as they get on the bus or in the car?  Yup, usually.  But there is a huge difference in being part of a winning program and a losing one and HS V is the level where that spotlight starts to shine.  You will come to find that it is quite different as a coach than it was as a player.  

Those same players who shake off the loss in a minute after it happens will remember very clearly 10-20-30-40 years from now if they had the big hit to win league or state or beat their big rival.  Does it matter to the rest of the world?  No.  But it will matter to each of those HS players you eventually coach over the years.  You will also find that in most HS's, this is the top level, the final stop they will reach with baseball.  That's where it may take a while for you to grasp since you made it some levels beyond.  Competing and winning games at this level is the peak of their baseball careers.  It matters to them.  You will be charged with allowing for that to happen.  Along with developing high-character young men, you will want to help them in their goals to win league or state or against cross-town rival.  Letting a young catcher call your V game with that in the balance may not be quite as appealing when you are in the middle of it.  Just a prediction... 

Hi Cabbage, Thanks for the response. Definitely makes sense & I appreciate the perspective. My take on it has probably been too heavily influenced by some of the coaching I have seen that has been way too heavy handed at the younger levels. Again, thanks.

As you all know my kid is just entering 9th, so I have no knowledge of HS baseball, HOWEVER, I have a lot of knowledge of 9u-14u baseball and I can backup this statement.  I don't know how to phrase it but it's almost like the most knowledgeable coaches in youth baseball don't want to share their knowledge with an 11u kid, or a 13u kid because they don't want to take the time to explain it.  These kids aren't learning the game, they are learning to follow orders. 

I have seen a 14u pitcher pulled because he shook off ONE pitch the coach called in the third inning, the coach was furious, rather than calling time and talking to the pitcher about his choice or waiting until the inning was over the pitcher was pulled and replaced with a kid who wasn't even warmed up...doesn't sound like development. My son was a 12u 5'8, 130# player who was in 7th grade and needed a new bat in May (so he was almost an 8th grader), he asked the coach if it was okay if he got a drop 5 as opposed to a drop 10, coach said absolutely not, I want you swinging the lightest bat you are allowed to swing, again, that doesn't sound like development. 

Kids right now, for SOME coaches, seem to be learning to be automatons...don't ask questions just do what you are told.  Not sure how they are actually LEARNING the game with coaches acting like that.

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game.

You do believe this though, correct? I had a freshman varsity catcher this year. You seem to believe the reason he didn't call pitches was because of my ego. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

(And I had a freshman that threw, too, if that fits your philosophy better.)

 

Correct. Yes, your ego. Take a soft spot or opponent & let him put the fingers down for an inning or 2. So what. How bad can he really go? Then, when he calls a 2-0 changeup to the 8 hole hitter when you are up 8-0 in the 6th inning, you can discuss why this is the wrong pitch. (your frosh pitcher will probably shake it & throw a heater anyway if you let him)  They now have to think a bit for themselves at minimal risk to your team. You will find that they will throw likely more than 80% of what you would have anyway.

Steve A. posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game.

You do believe this though, correct? I had a freshman varsity catcher this year. You seem to believe the reason he didn't call pitches was because of my ego. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

(And I had a freshman that threw, too, if that fits your philosophy better.)

 

Correct. Yes, your ego. Take a soft spot or opponent & let him put the fingers down for an inning or 2. So what. How bad can he really go? Then, when he calls a 2-0 changeup to the 8 hole hitter when you are up 8-0 in the 6th inning, you can discuss why this is the wrong pitch. (your frosh pitcher will probably shake it & throw a heater anyway if you let him)  They now have to think a bit for themselves at minimal risk to your team. You will find that they will throw likely more than 80% of what you would have anyway.

See this to is what I think and what we do. But again, we pick our spots to develop him, not just let him take over handling it all right away, which is how I tool what you were advocating earlier. I'm hoping by his Junior year he can handle almost all of it. Although to be honest with this one, maybe Senior year.

To me that's not ego, it's just rational. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

 

As you all know my kid is just entering 9th, so I have no knowledge of HS baseball, HOWEVER, I have a lot of knowledge of 9u-14u baseball and I can backup this statement.  I don't know how to phrase it but it's almost like the most knowledgeable coaches in youth baseball don't want to share their knowledge with an 11u kid, or a 13u kid because they don't want to take the time to explain it.  These kids aren't learning the game, they are learning to follow orders. 

I have seen a 14u pitcher pulled because he shook off ONE pitch the coach called in the third inning, the coach was furious, rather than calling time and talking to the pitcher about his choice or waiting until the inning was over the pitcher was pulled and replaced with a kid who wasn't even warmed up...doesn't sound like development. My son was a 12u 5'8, 130# player who was in 7th grade and needed a new bat in May (so he was almost an 8th grader), he asked the coach if it was okay if he got a drop 5 as opposed to a drop 10, coach said absolutely not, I want you swinging the lightest bat you are allowed to swing, again, that doesn't sound like development. 

Kids right now, for SOME coaches, seem to be learning to be automatons...don't ask questions just do what you are told.  Not sure how they are actually LEARNING the game with coaches acting like that.

CaCo, Amen sister! Seen way too much of it. These coaches are chasing the plastic trophy as a monument to themselves under the shield of "winning" & putting development secondary. My kid has a closet full of these trinkets, medallions & plastic statues. At the time of the event, it was the most important thing in the world. Two days later nobody really cares.

This is why when Ironhorse & 2079 get these kids in HS they are reluctant to trust them to call the shots. I get that. Somebody has to step up at some point & teach the game & let these kids make a mistake. It's not the end of the world if they get it wrong.

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game.

You do believe this though, correct? I had a freshman varsity catcher this year. You seem to believe the reason he didn't call pitches was because of my ego. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

(And I had a freshman that threw, too, if that fits your philosophy better.)

 

Correct. Yes, your ego. Take a soft spot or opponent & let him put the fingers down for an inning or 2. So what. How bad can he really go? Then, when he calls a 2-0 changeup to the 8 hole hitter when you are up 8-0 in the 6th inning, you can discuss why this is the wrong pitch. (your frosh pitcher will probably shake it & throw a heater anyway if you let him)  They now have to think a bit for themselves at minimal risk to your team. You will find that they will throw likely more than 80% of what you would have anyway.

See this to is what I think and what we do. But again, we pick our spots to develop him, not just let him take over handling it all right away, which is how I tool what you were advocating earlier. I'm hoping by his Junior year he can handle almost all of it. Although to be honest with this one, maybe Senior year.

To me that's not ego, it's just rational. 

Holy smokes I think we agree! Have a great Holiday weekend.

Caco3girl,

You may be right and that coach, and certainly most coaches including myself, could always do a better job explaining things.  You know me, I like to offer other possibilities with a given scenario.  

We do call pitches most of the time (as you know, HS V).  We do so with purpose.  It may be sequencing, something we see in a hitter, etc., as has been discussed in some depth here recently.  Yes, we want regular communication with P,C and coach calling.  Yes, we want P to throw what is comfortable and what is working for him that day.  Yes we want him to feel liberty to shake in the right situation.  Yes, some P's need to just throw what is called.  Yes, some coaches need to loosen the reigns and/or be more aware of what the P is comfortable throwing on a given day.  All this said, there are some situations where a P is making a big mistake shaking off a call and the best way for the coach to convey a learning moment is the instant pull.  As much as we discuss things and work through the learning curve, it doesn't happen over night and once in a while, a jolt pushes the process forward.  

In one of our last games this year, we had a P shake off my P coach call in a pivotal situation.  We are usually OK with shakes if there is a reason.  It resulted exactly as feared.  If I had another P ready, I would have yanked in a heartbeat.  I should have anyway.  After the inning, I asked very stearnly "did you shake FB?".  We both knew he did and he knew very well it was a big mistake and he did it for selfish reasons.   He definitely got the message.  He'll be a better pitcher going forward.  That one shake was the only one of many during the season I had a big issue with.  Others were still teaching moments and were discussed often.  Others were probably fine.

Another thing that comes to mind about your comment... "it's almost like the most knowledgeable coaches in youth baseball don't want to share their knowledge with an 11u kid, or a 13u kid because they don't want to take the time to explain it.  These kids aren't learning the game, they are learning to follow orders.  of the kids not learning the game, just to follow orders."  

I don't think people take practice time into full consideration sometimes.  Most coaches I know are coaching because they love the game and do love teaching it.  Most of this occurs during practices.  During games, some coach styles are such that they still teach some while others just let the players play.  there is merit to both.  But to observers, the latter can look like they don't teach the game when this is not true at all.  

The usual disclaimer applies.. there are good ones and bad ones with everything.

cabbagedad posted:

Caco3girl,

You may be right and that coach, and certainly most coaches including myself, could always do a better job explaining things.  You know me, I like to offer other possibilities with a given scenario.  

We do call pitches most of the time (as you know, HS V).  We do so with purpose.  It may be sequencing, something we see in a hitter, etc., as has been discussed in some depth here recently.  Yes, we want regular communication with P,C and coach calling.  Yes, we want P to throw what is comfortable and what is working for him that day.  Yes we want him to feel liberty to shake in the right situation.  Yes, some P's need to just throw what is called.  Yes, some coaches need to loosen the reigns and/or be more aware of what the P is comfortable throwing on a given day.  All this said, there are some situations where a P is making a big mistake shaking off a call and the best way for the coach to convey a learning moment is the instant pull.  As much as we discuss things and work through the learning curve, it doesn't happen over night and once in a while, a jolt pushes the process forward.  

In one of our last games this year, we had a P shake off my P coach call in a pivotal situation.  We are usually OK with shakes if there is a reason.  It resulted exactly as feared.  If I had another P ready, I would have yanked in a heartbeat.  I should have anyway.  After the inning, I asked very stearnly "did you shake FB?".  We both knew he did and he knew very well it was a big mistake and he did it for selfish reasons.   He definitely got the message.  He'll be a better pitcher going forward.  That one shake was the only one of many during the season I had a big issue with.  Others were still teaching moments and were discussed often.  Others were probably fine.

Another thing that comes to mind about your comment... "it's almost like the most knowledgeable coaches in youth baseball don't want to share their knowledge with an 11u kid, or a 13u kid because they don't want to take the time to explain it.  These kids aren't learning the game, they are learning to follow orders.  of the kids not learning the game, just to follow orders."  

I don't think people take practice time into full consideration sometimes.  Most coaches I know are coaching because they love the game and do love teaching it.  Most of this occurs during practices.  During games, some coach styles are such that they still teach some while others just let the players play.  there is merit to both.  But to observers, the latter can look like they don't teach the game when this is not true at all.  

The usual disclaimer applies.. there are good ones and bad ones with everything.

 

Cabbage, there are good ones and bad ones and sadly I don't know enough to judge who is who.  I can say that multiple times over the year with MY son he has misinterpreted/misheard a coach and because an explanation was not given it wound up hurting him.  The most blatant that comes to mind was when the coach explained to the 12u team not to swing at curves or change up's, wait for the fast ball.  All of a sudden my kid, who had struck out 5 times the previous YEAR had 2 strike outs in one game against a pitcher that wasn't very special.  When I asked him about it he told me what the coach had said.  I asked him to double check with the coach.  He did and came back with "Yup, that's what he said", having enough of the insanity I talked to the coach WITH my son, it turned out he said don't swing at curves or change up's while you are ahead in the count."  No idea if this is valid advice but at least my kid was no longer standing up there like a statue.  At the time I am not certain my kid even knew what "ahead in the count" meant....and that could have been part of the problem.

Yup, Caco, perfect example.  

Looking fastball early in the count and when ahead (therefore don't swing at curve and change) is a good approach used across all levels.  So the coach is teaching a sound baseball approach.  He explained it to the team and one (or more) player didn't fully understand or properly interpret so was unable to execute properly.  

So, at some point, the perception of the parent was insanity on the coach's part.  In reality, it was sound teaching.  Sometimes it takes a while for either of the three (coach/player/parent) to recognize that the group message didn't come across clearly enough to some of the individuals.  So the coach may have only scored a 90% on conveying a hitting approach to the team but this is far from the earlier perceived insanity status.

BTW, Caco, I still question my son's interpretation of the words and directives of his coaches and he is a fourth year college player   I hope you experience better progress.

I was having a conversation with a little league coach and he told me they call the pitches and the location!!!!!!!  Are you kidding me. Location?????

Will posted:

I was having a conversation with a little league coach and he told me they call the pitches and the location!!!!!!!  Are you kidding me. Location?????

Yup, high, low, inside, outside is also called with pitch.