High School Baseball

I think it all really depend on who you've got as coaches and the makeup of the catcher himself.  In HS, I've only seen a rare case where the catcher himself will make the call and most often it's the HC the makes the calls (in what was my little area of California).   Even in college (even high level programs), catchers do not typically call the pitches (not very many calls, anyway).   

I feel it's unfortunate that catchers don't get to make the calls more as it helps them learn the game better.   But when winning is such an overriding issue, the person that knows the game best and/or understands hitting along with studying the individual hitters will be the one most likely to call the pitches.  And that most often is the HC . . . huh???

My husband is a hs pitching coach. He calls the games. The main reason is that the catchers we currently have do not have the level of experience needed to understand how to call a game or the knowledge about the individual hitters to know what to call. Although my husband is making the calls, he's being informed by the scouting reports the team has on the opposing batters. I think it would be great for the catchers to learn to call the game, but most high school coaches don't have the luxury of time to fully teach it or don't want to sacrifice the win to allow a kid to learn through trial and error.

Sometimes our head coach call it. Sometimes I do (catcher coach). Very rarely do we see a catcher calling pitches. If they do it is usually a mediocre team that doesn't have a very good staff. They pitch every batter the same. Get ahead and work outside. Throw off speak when ahead. Very generic.

Wow, talk about over-coaching. Do coaches also tell players where to throw the baseball when it's hit to them? Players need to be able to think on their feet and make their own decisions.

I wasn't what you'd call a "good high school player" but rarely did our coaches call pitches for us. And our coaches are pretty good coaches... but they let us learn by making mistakes. How else are they supposed to do it? 

I totally agree
my sons travel and AAU team my son the catcher calls all the pitches

sportsmomof3 posted:

I totally agree
my sons travel and AAU team my son the catcher calls all the pitches

I think the travel team catchers should call pitches.  It's for development, and you are paying for it.

High school, it's on the coaches.  Whatever gives them the best chance to win.  Whoever calls pitches need a holistic strategy....fielders positioning, batters strengths/weaknesses.  It depends how the team's coaching is set up.  But it's ultimately on the head coach.

95%+ of good HS teams have coaches calling pitches. Those of you that think that's wrong just have never been in the position, or you had extraordinary circumstances.

Why don't high school quarterbacks call plays or high school point guards call plays?  I called pitches in high school and what little bit I played in college (very low level) but looking back on it I had no clue.  I was an assistant coach for softball this year and we called pitches as a staff then halfway through the season we turned it over to the catcher and there wasn't any difference.  Regardless of who calls pitches if the pitcher isn't hitting spots it's a moot point.  If the spot is fastball low and away but he throws it inside then what did it matter what was called?

Me as a coach if I have faith in my catcher AND pitcher then I'll let them call their own game but if I call something they better throw it.  But that's a trust built up between us over time.  If you win then it's the right call for _______ to call the pitches.

This is a discussion/debate that comes up fairly often here.  As some have pointed out, most HS and college programs have a coach call pitches and there are many valid reasons.  Will your HS son catcher actually be up on scouting reports and spray charts of opponents as much as the most qualified coach on staff?  Even if he is, will his other responsibilities suffer a bit in order for him to keep track of all this?  The catcher has so many responsibilities and things to keep track of without calling pitches.  How many HS kids are really equipped to add that and put the team in a better position to win than if that qualified coach was calling? 

I agree that a catcher will learn a lot from calling games and there are right times to have him do so.  We do it with our summer games and most inter-squads.  In the rare instance where a C shows the ability to handle this well without the rest of his game suffering, we're all for it. 

Also, it does depend on the coach alignment as well.  Is there a qualified coach who knows his P's, can do it and put the team in a better position to win? 

Coach' analogy of the football QB is a good one.  No one ever says "well, how is he supposed to learn the game?" when the QB doesn't call plays.  Is It "over-coaching" when the FB HC calls plays?

Catchers learning to call pitches starts or should start when pitchers are learning to pitch. 

Simple instruction in certain counts and let them learn. When he calls for a FB and it lands/set up lane one or two in an 0-2 count, then he needs to hear about what he called and why.

We are so wrapped up in winning at an early age that catchers nowadays seldom learn to call a game. College coaches know these catchers don't know the game and are not willing to gamble their livelihood on their inability. 

Ask any pro scout. This is one of the reasons for the shortage of qualified catchers and the reason catchers at the ML level are able to play many years beyond the other position players. 

After all, no matter what level your kid plays ( rec, TB, ect) it is ALL practice until you make it, if you make it. 

Whether you like it or not catchers are not going to be calling games in high school and 17/18u. Even in MLB you see catchers looking towards the bench a lot. The bench has so much information assessable it would be unwise not to use it.

Before high school the catchers shou,d learn how to call games. It will make them smarter players. From 13-16u we had all but one catcher (he was t very bright) call their own games. We sometimes signaled for a certain pitch from the bench. 

In preteen rec, all stars and travel the catcher called his own game. That is except for the 9u control freak travel  head coach who wanted to prove he knew the game. He called game with 21 pitching zones for nine year old pitchers. 

My son, the regular catcher was amused. He told the pitchers, "Unless I call for a change just throw it by the hitter."

Backpick25 posted:

 

...

After all, no matter what level your kid plays ( rec, TB, ect) it is ALL practice until you make it, if you make it. 

Respectfully disagree... if you got an honest opinion on why they play from any kid at any level, it is about liking/loving playing the game, trying to win, trying to succeed, trying to do better than his friends or opponents on the other team and having fun with his friends/teammates.  This applies from T-ball through college.  Yes, it is also about aspiration but that is not primary purpose for the majority.  The last thing any of them would agree to is "it's all about practice" unless it is something they are parroting from adults.  The day baseball becomes "all about practice" 'til you make the bigs is the day I swear off the game. 

I see you are a youth coach.  I will say that the best youth coaches are able to prioritize development, but without the players knowing that is happening.  They need to think, at least to a large extent, that they are playing to win.  

Most players don't ever "make it".  Why, on earth, should it be all about practicing for something you will never do?

I do agree with you that catchers should start learning how to call games as pitchers  start learning how to pitch.  But that usually doesn't really start happening until teen years.  So, there is typically an awful lot still to be learned when they become HS catchers.  As said before, mileage varies.

 

There isn't a standard one size fits all here.  Typically, I called the pitches for my new catchers until they learned the system.  Naturally, bullpens and in game discussions were where I taught my system.  The goal is to wean them off as fast as I could.  Then, we had signals where I would tell the catcher I wanted to make a call or the catcher had a signal asking me what to call.  You can't leave the pitcher out of the equation and so, we had a signal for the pitcher that I called a pitch and so, no option on a shake off unless I verballed it.  The pitcher could shake the catcher. 

Cabbage- the reference of  "ALL practice" is from a developmental and coaching perspective. This perspective is shared by many of my friends and associates at the MiLB and collegiate level and is in no way to influence a kids perspective of the game or how to play it. Every time they hit the field there's a want to improve their game. It's the continued improvement on intensity and execution or as I reference, practice.

"Making it" can have many meanings to many different players.  For some, it's making it to TB or HS ball, others it's college and so on. 

 

I always called the pitches. My son's current HC allows the catchers to call the game. My reasoning was that I am making a lot of decisions in positioning and what I am trying to get a particular hitter to do - minute-to-minute strategy changes that my catcher may not be privy to. For example, I may have reason to believe there's a good chance that the offense might be trying a hit-and-run on the next pitch and I decide I want a fastball inside. That's something I can't communicate to my catcher quickly enough, so it's better that I'm making the calls.

sportsmomof3 posted:

I want to find out what you guys think.  Who should be calling the pitches during a game, the pitching coach, catching coach, head coach or catcher?  Just want some feedback on what happens in your neck of the woods.

For my high school, our pitching coach calls the pitches, doesn't mean that the pitcher throws what I give him the sign to throw, he might throw a change up when I call curve, or a fastball sometimes before I even get the chance to give him a sign he is already in the windup delivering to the plate.

Wesleythecacther posted:

sportsmomof3 posted:

I want to find out what you guys think.  Who should be calling the pitches during a game, the pitching coach, catching coach, head coach or catcher?  Just want some feedback on what happens in your neck of the woods.

For my high school, our pitching coach calls the pitches, doesn't mean that the pitcher throws what I give him the sign to throw, he might throw a change up when I call curve, or a fastball sometimes before I even get the chance to give him a sign he is already in the windup delivering to the plate.

So do you and / or the pitching coach say anything to him?  I know if I'm catching we will have a nice heart to heart about me knowing what's coming so I could do the best for him to buy strikes on border pitches.  If you're trying to figure out what pitch it is midflight you're not going to do a very good job of sticking pitches.  But if you're able to catch him with little problem and not knowing what's coming then he may not be very good.

When my son caught for his HS team during his sophomore year the coach called the pitches. His junior and senior years he played 3B and 1B. 

In Legion his coach trusted him to call the game.  However, when some of the other players were behind the plate the Legion coach would call the pitches.  It depended on how much he trusted the catcher behind the plate to make the right call.

In college (JuCo & D2) the coaches made the call.

coach2709 posted:

Wesleythecacther posted:

sportsmomof3 posted:

I want to find out what you guys think.  Who should be calling the pitches during a game, the pitching coach, catching coach, head coach or catcher?  Just want some feedback on what happens in your neck of the woods.

For my high school, our pitching coach calls the pitches, doesn't mean that the pitcher throws what I give him the sign to throw, he might throw a change up when I call curve, or a fastball sometimes before I even get the chance to give him a sign he is already in the windup delivering to the plate.

So do you and / or the pitching coach say anything to him?  I know if I'm catching we will have a nice heart to heart about me knowing what's coming so I could do the best for him to buy strikes on border pitches.  If you're trying to figure out what pitch it is midflight you're not going to do a very good job of sticking pitches.  But if you're able to catch him with little problem and not knowing what's coming then he may not be very good.

Well, he just told me that he doesn't throw what I give him the sign for, so I can't do much now, regular season is over, we have Districts tomorrow and I am not catching that game because we need someone to play first. I sometimes do have trouble sticking the pitches, but I was able to do it most of the time by reading what it was out of his hand. Also, check out this video that I just uploaded: https://youtu.be/Vuhg5M0bSQg

I'm going to the thread you have in catching to comment on the video so we don't get off track here.

Somebody needs to have a talk with this guy because he's hurting the team.  If you're not sticking pitches because you're not sure what they are then he's taking away strikes from himself and the team.  Plus the chances of a wild pitch (I can't call it a passed ball when he doesn't let you know what's coming) go up by a lot if you don't know. 

kandkfunk posted:

…Although my husband is making the calls, he's being informed by the scouting reports the team has on the opposing batters….

 

If you could, would you post one of those scouting reports?

cabbagedad posted:

This is a discussion/debate that comes up fairly often here.  As some have pointed out, most HS and college programs have a coach call pitches and there are many valid reasons.  Will your HS son catcher actually be up on scouting reports and spray charts of opponents as much as the most qualified coach on staff?  Even if he is, will his other responsibilities suffer a bit in order for him to keep track of all this?  The catcher has so many responsibilities and things to keep track of without calling pitches.  How many HS kids are really equipped to add that and put the team in a better position to win than if that qualified coach was calling? …

 

Many VALID reasons or many reasons? I suppose a lot has to do with what one considers valid reasons.

 

How many HS teams scout every game and how many actually have access to an opponent’s spray charts? I know our coaches have sometimes scouted teams in tournaments and playoffs when they can, but other than that there isn’t a whole lot of scouting going on. I’ve been doing HSV for a good while now and have never once see a scatter chart for any opponent other than occasionally when we’ve played a team a 2^nd or 3^rd time, and then its only for the games we’ve played against them.

 

What does the catcher have to keep track of that the person calling the pitches in the dugout doesn’t have to?

 

I don’t know for sure what percentage of HS catchers calling pitches would put the team in a better position to win if they were all allowed to call the games themselves, but on the other hand how does anyone know for sure what percentage wouldn’t do at least an equal or better job?

 

I guess much of how a person feels about it depends on how much s/he feels the game is impacted by the calling of the pitches and I’m sure that varies from pitcher to pitcher, game to game, and situation to situation. Personally, I don’t think the pitches and locations called impact the game nearly as much as the pitcher’s ability to execute the pitch correctly, and I haven’t seen many HS pitchers can do that even half the time. Unfortunately, since there are no do overs there’s no way to test anyone’s philosophy on it.

Does anyone want to share their perspective on how they call pitches from beginning to end?  Sounds like some folks will point towards spray charts while others will point towards situations.  However, assuming you don't have good spray charts and it is the beginning of the game - what do you call?  Are you trying to set up the batter based on the pitcher's arsenal?  First pitch FB strikes trying to set up for an eventual 3rd strike change-up?  throwing outside early in the AB and then come inside for the KO?  Have the pitcher throw an assortment early on and see which pitches seem to be working better than others?  Ask the pitcher outright after 1st inning what he thinks is working?  Relative bat speed of the batter versus how fast the FB is that day?  I would think for a large percentage of high school pitchers, simply throwing a solid FB is priority #1 followed by some FB location/changes.  If you have a pitcher with 3 pitches that he commands, then I guess calling pitches may get a little complicated, but the fewer pitches they command, the simpler life becomes.  At times I would suggest letting the pitcher decide what his best pitch is (best pitch that particular outing) and let him throw that pitch (tailing FB low outside for strike seems to work well in a lot of situations).

2017 has pitches called by pitching coach and they seem to have some shared appreciation for the pitches chosen.  That said, there were time when 2017 said a certain pitch just wasn't working well enough to be effective - or he simply felt that it wasn't working - and as a result did not have 100% confidence in the delivery of that pitch.  I realize that there may be multiple reasons why a coach calls a pitch and that there is simply not time to "explain" his reasoning to the pitcher, but to never allow the pitcher to shake off a pitch seems a little counter-productive assuming you have some level of confidence in the pitcher.

I believe it's hard for the catcher to concentrate on receiving and blocking and everything he has to do and still see the hitters swing. When I'm calling pitches I record everything I see in his swing. From swinging around the ball to leaning over the plate to watch a low and away FB out of the zone. The catcher can't diagnose the swing and concentrate on the game.

As far as spray charts go, it's hard to get a good read on where to pitch a hitter if you don't know the location of the pitch on the spray chart. When calling pitches I am looking for holes in the swing more than anything. But like you said, if you can't hit spots it's all for naught.

Interesting discussion...couple of thoughts.  Our pitching coach (PC)calls the pitches.  Pitcher has the approved authority to shake it off if he see's something differently.  Maybe he is having trouble feeling a pitch or hitting his spots.  The discussion between the PC and pitcher regarding those pitches he shakes off occurs between innings or if the PC see him shaking off more than occasionally he will call time and go figure out what the issue is.  

My personal opinion is that this provides the best teaching environment with the least amount of pressure on the players.  In HS we want the pitcher and catchers to focus on execution and not become overwhelmed with strategy.  If we call a fastball on 0-2 and it leaks over the plate and gets taken for a ride the pitcher learns that they need to improve location execution and they can do that.  The pitcher and the catcher learn what we believe (assuming we are as smart as we think we are) SHOULD be thrown in a given situation at a given time of the game against a given batter.  As they grow if they continue to play they will experience different philosophies from aggressive to overly careful and some will work for them and they will look like a Cy Young winner and some will not and they will begin to recognize what works for them.  If the PC is doing their job they are also explaining the "Why" of the pitch selection.

Example:  Last week we were coming through the line up the 2nd time and the pitcher was facing the 4 hitter with 2 outs and no one on base in a 0-0 game.  Four hitter is 6'3" 225 and is not a bit fat, drove a low outside 1st pitch fastball into center for a single in the first.  BUT he is also aggressive and likes to hit early in the count.  This time the PC works speeds and achieved a 3-2 count and called a curve in the dirt.   Ball bounced in the dirt, catcher blocked it batter swung so hard he almost fell, tagged out happy ending.  In between innings PC told the pitcher why this was the right pitch..."In my mind that was an intentional walk with a high upside, what we did not want to do was give 4 a pitch he could drive for a double or worse with 2 outs".  Once the pitcher has heard enough "Whys" they are thinking the pitch before the call is made.

When they are successful and they learn, when they fail they learn and at the end of the day they get accolades when they pitch well and the PC is to blame if they get hit hard...

2017LHPscrewball posted:

Does anyone want to share their perspective on how they call pitches from beginning to end?  Sounds like some folks will point towards spray charts while others will point towards situations.  However, assuming you don't have good spray charts and it is the beginning of the game - what do you call?  Are you trying to set up the batter based on the pitcher's arsenal?  First pitch FB strikes trying to set up for an eventual 3rd strike change-up?  throwing outside early in the AB and then come inside for the KO?  Have the pitcher throw an assortment early on and see which pitches seem to be working better than others?  Ask the pitcher outright after 1st inning what he thinks is working?  Relative bat speed of the batter versus how fast the FB is that day?  I would think for a large percentage of high school pitchers, simply throwing a solid FB is priority #1 followed by some FB location/changes.  If you have a pitcher with 3 pitches that he commands, then I guess calling pitches may get a little complicated, but the fewer pitches they command, the simpler life becomes.  At times I would suggest letting the pitcher decide what his best pitch is (best pitch that particular outing) and let him throw that pitch (tailing FB low outside for strike seems to work well in a lot of situations).

2017 has pitches called by pitching coach and they seem to have some shared appreciation for the pitches chosen.  That said, there were time when 2017 said a certain pitch just wasn't working well enough to be effective - or he simply felt that it wasn't working - and as a result did not have 100% confidence in the delivery of that pitch.  I realize that there may be multiple reasons why a coach calls a pitch and that there is simply not time to "explain" his reasoning to the pitcher, but to never allow the pitcher to shake off a pitch seems a little counter-productive assuming you have some level of confidence in the pitcher.

Ok, in short here is what I try to do. You should know from warming up in the bull pen what his best pitch is. Most of our pitchers have 3 pitches. FB, CB, and CU. We get ahead with good location FB. We want to see the batters swing and see where the holes in his swing are. If we are hitting spots then this makes life easy. If not we have to call a lot of good location GB and try to keep the ball low. We pitch a batter based on where we think the weak spots in his swing are. Change speeds and hit spots are key of course.

Stats4Gnats posted:

kandkfunk posted:

…Although my husband is making the calls, he's being informed by the scouting reports the team has on the opposing batters….

 

If you could, would you post one of those scouting reports?

I don't, because although my husband is a coach, I am also a mom of a player and that is my first role. My job is not to coach or in any way be a part of that side of the team.

We do have people that scout teams ahead of time. Sometimes it's the coaches themselves, if we don't have a game when an upcoming team does, and sometimes it's other people the coaches trust. They also have their historical knowledge of players from previous years. There may be a couple kids on a roster that the coaches aren't familiar with, but most of the varsity kids are there for 2, 3 or 4 years, plus summer ball, so the coaches develop a lot of info on a player over time. We also play 2-3 game series with every team and all games are in a row. By the Friday game, the coaches have a lot of data on each hitter. We have an assistant coach sitting next to the coach calling pitches with all the charts and information. The coach calls the pitch. Not a big deal and not any different than any other varsity team I've ever encountered. We have one pitcher that can call his own game, but it is definitely the pitcher calling the game and not the catcher. The catcher will call a pitch and the pitcher will shake him off until he gets the signal he wants. It takes just as long as the coach calling the game.

Now, the pitchers being able to hit the called pitch is a whole other issue and will be an issue regardless of who is calling the pitches.

When I watch a college game or HS game, I enjoy watching the coach "flash" the sign to the catcher. It is predictable. The catcher, however knows the movement of his pitcher pitches and can adjust based on the tempo. The majority of pitchers are effective when they work quick, infielders on their toes and his defense is ready.

Realizing only a few hitters are like Roberto, Mays and Aaron. They often missed on purpose to receive the same pitch again.

Bob

Catchers don't call games anymore at any level. In unimportance sometimes at the hs level. In MLB depending on philosophy of the club sometimes catchers call games after thorough meeting earlier with pitcher and coach agreeing how to attack hitters. At the same time if meester coach wants a certain pitch at any given time he will call it.  I did at times have my cat archers call pitches but we met every inning while we were batting to discuss the next innings hitters and how we wanted to approach them. 

Stats4Gnats posted:

cabbagedad posted:

This is a discussion/debate that comes up fairly often here.  As some have pointed out, most HS and college programs have a coach call pitches and there are many valid reasons.  Will your HS son catcher actually be up on scouting reports and spray charts of opponents as much as the most qualified coach on staff?  Even if he is, will his other responsibilities suffer a bit in order for him to keep track of all this?  The catcher has so many responsibilities and things to keep track of without calling pitches.  How many HS kids are really equipped to add that and put the team in a better position to win than if that qualified coach was calling? …

 

Many VALID reasons or many reasons? I suppose a lot has to do with what one considers valid reasons.

 

How many HS teams scout every game and how many actually have access to an opponent’s spray charts? I know our coaches have sometimes scouted teams in tournaments and playoffs when they can, but other than that there isn’t a whole lot of scouting going on. I’ve been doing HSV for a good while now and have never once see a scatter chart for any opponent other than occasionally when we’ve played a team a 2^nd or 3^rd time, and then its only for the games we’ve played against them.

 

What does the catcher have to keep track of that the person calling the pitches in the dugout doesn’t have to?

 

I don’t know for sure what percentage of HS catchers calling pitches would put the team in a better position to win if they were all allowed to call the games themselves, but on the other hand how does anyone know for sure what percentage wouldn’t do at least an equal or better job?

 

I guess much of how a person feels about it depends on how much s/he feels the game is impacted by the calling of the pitches and I’m sure that varies from pitcher to pitcher, game to game, and situation to situation. Personally, I don’t think the pitches and locations called impact the game nearly as much as the pitcher’s ability to execute the pitch correctly, and I haven’t seen many HS pitchers can do that even half the time. Unfortunately, since there are no do overs there’s no way to test anyone’s philosophy on it.

Well, Stats, I'm certainly not surprised that you came through with yet another thinly veiled insult with your "many VALID reasons or many reasons? wink, wink" remark.

Interesting that you give HS P's virtually no credit for being able to reasonably locate pitches yet you are a consistent proponent of giving HS catchers the added responsibility of calling pitches.  What does the catcher have to keep track of otherwise?  Total awareness of and holding runners, framing fringe pitches, communicate signs to IF's for backpicks, properly anticipate and block balls in the dirt, field bunts and be field general on those he can't get, position cuts and make split second cut/relay decisions early enough, back up IF throws to first situationally, help IF's on pop flies near fence, maintain a stream of communication from the dugout, relay defensive plays, be in tune with P and help keep him in best possible mindset to perform, maintain a favorable working relationship with PU, just to name a few. 

Calling pitches brings into account the added tasks of knowing hitter tendencies, identifying holes in swing, seeing hitter's timing on previous pitches, knowing situationally what offense is trying to execute and calling pitches to defend that, awareness of what pitches are working for that P that day, calling pitches and locations that are count and situation appropriate, recalling history of better hitters from past seasons and earlier games, etc., etc.

But I'm sure you are right.  We should have all HS catchers call the games.  Boy, HS catchers must be WAY smarter, more advanced and more competent than HS pitchers. 

The catcher has, by far, the most responsibilities on the field.  As others have pointed out, some of the better ones can also call a good game.  But even those aren't in the position to take into account everything in a given situation as well as a qualified coach who is specifically tasked to do so.  Typically, neither are perfect.  Most often, one puts the HS team in a better position to win and the teenage HS P and C in a better position to play and execute to the best of their abilities.  

The large majority of better HS and college programs call pitches from the dugout.  If only they had someone smarter than them, like you, to help them realize the error in their ways...  Don't you have a database of all HC's stored somewhere?  Maybe you can send them all a wink, wink.

I never get why this is such a "hot button" for people. Why do they think a HS kid should be calling games? I've had 2 catchers go D1 the past few years, and never did a coach asked if they called their own game. If a college catcher can receive and rake, I don't see him dropping 15 rounds based on the fact his coaches called the game.

I'm not sure anyone cares as much as message boards.

I live in VA & recently heard an interview on MLB Radio with Billy Wagner who is now a HS coach in VA. He was asked on this issue & was adamant about letting his kids call their own & learn the game. The focus was clearly on player development from arguably the top LH Reliever to ever toss it. Winning was secondary to him although the team was well over 500% at the time of the interview (about a month ago).

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes. I got paid to pitch for 7 years & yes, I have called some from time to time & this is typically in a big spot & I will send one in or work a sequence, but for the most part we let them go at it & then if something comes up we will review. It is the coolest thing to have your 13U catcher come to you after an inning & ask if you thought the 2-2 pitch that was smoked was the right pitch or not. Often it was & sometimes you give the hitter credit. If we feel it was not we can discuss why . The point is that the pitcher learns to have a feel & the catcher has to think.

We had our shot & now it is their turn. Let them go. 

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

I expect my son's HS coach to play to win. Every game.  And that most likely means he calls the pitches.  Just get the calls in quick so kids can play with tempo.

Save the development focus for the travel teams when you pay to get developed.

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

Glad my kid will not play for you. Let me guess. You are a HS coach obsessed with your W/L record. You mostly think of it as your record & control every aspect of every game down to every pitch called. A pitcher of yours would not even consider shaking a sign.......Am I close??    

Steve A. posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

Glad my kid will not play for you. Let me guess. You are a HS coach obsessed with your W/L record. You mostly think of it as your record & control every aspect of every game down to every pitch called. A pitcher of yours would not even consider shaking a sign.......Am I close??    

Not even close. Comically far off, but since I have a different opinion than you it's probably easier for you to see me that way, so I understand. And judging by your closed-mindedness that your way must be right because you got paid to pitch and you coach youth select ball , I'm glad your kid won't be playing for me either.

To me, who is calling pitches can depend on several things, many that are mentioned above.

Much depends on who you have catching and who you have pitching.  I have had catchers that called pitches just as good as I would have.  Maybe even better because they have the advantage of seeing exactly what the pitcher has working best that game.  Also I have had pitchers that are excellent and calling their own pitches.  Even then we wanted to make sure we had the ability to call pityches when we wanted, so our catchers always glanced into the dugout.   sometimes we would actually make our signs easy to steal, so in a big situation we could give the other dugout a pitch different than what was coming.  And we always had our bench trying to steal the opponents signs.  We all have seen catchers and pitchers that actually know more about the game than the coach calling the pitches.

All that said, the majority of catchers and pitchers don't have this ability and feel for things.  In that case, it is best if a coach calls the pitches.  When you are at a level that you have advanced scouting reports it can really help if the catcher, pitcher and coach work together.  This is where a coach has the advantage in calling pitches because he has that info at his finger tips.

Once again, I have seen pitchers and catchers get on the same page and call a great game.  I have seen coaches that call a great game.  Also, I have seen pitchers, catchers and coaches that have no idea what they are doing.

Actually you could go on forever talking about the reasons why coaches or catchers call a game. But most coaches that have a special catcher understand that they both are on the same page nearly all the time.  A good catcher and a good coach is a great combination, no matter who is calling the pitches.

If 95% of amateur baseball calls pitches (meaning HS and college really), and 99% of amateur football calls plays (meaning HS and college really), are 95-99% of all coaches simply fueled by ego?

That's ignorant.

Go44dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

I expect my son's HS coach to play to win. Every game.  And that most likely means he calls the pitches.  Just get the calls in quick so kids can play with tempo.

Save the development focus for the travel teams when you pay to get developed.

Let me ask you a couple questions .Let's say your son is a pitcher. Would he be a better off having been on the mound for 4 years with a coach who was OK with letting him shake & throw his own game or simply nodding like a robot for fear of chapping the coach?

I totally understand playing to win & get it. I simply have a differing take on it & understand the fact that this is HS baseball & 1 team wins the State Championship & the rest of them are really irrelevant in terms of Win / Loss records as the years go by. In short, nobody really gives a rip if your team went 18-6, 14-14 or 6-14 within about 10 minutes after the last game.

Steve A. posted:

Go44dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

I expect my son's HS coach to play to win. Every game.  And that most likely means he calls the pitches.  Just get the calls in quick so kids can play with tempo.

Save the development focus for the travel teams when you pay to get developed.

Let me ask you a couple questions .Let's say your son is a pitcher. Would he be a better off having been on the mound for 4 years with a coach who was OK with letting him shake & throw his own game or simply nodding like a robot for fear of chapping the coach?

I totally understand playing to win & get it. I simply have a differing take on it & understand the fact that this is HS baseball & 1 team wins the State Championship & the rest of them are really irrelevant in terms of Win / Loss records as the years go by. In short, nobody really gives a rip if your team went 18-6, 14-14 or 6-14 within about 10 minutes after the last game.

Would the pitcher be better off for the experience of learning from mistakes? For sure.

Would the team be better off? That's the bigger question.

I prefer the freshman who has coaches calling pitches, but then asking at the end of every inning/game the mindset behind what was called. Maybe asking why we didn't try this or that. Or maybe flat out saying "I would have felt better throwing ...."

Then, by the time he' been doing that for a couple of years, he and I will be on the same page, and I will know that he understands the game and what we're trying to accomplish with each hitter, and he will have a lot more leeway or input or decision making capabilities, whatever you want to call it.

But to think I'm going to let a kid who may not understand how to do it simply take it over for the betterment of him and only him right away simply isn't going to happen.

 

 

ironhorse posted:

If 95% of amateur baseball calls pitches (meaning HS and college really), and 99% of amateur football calls plays (meaning HS and college really), are 95-99% of all coaches simply fueled by ego?

That's ignorant.

I guess you need to pick up the phone & call Billy Wagner & tell him he is ignorant. Surely your wisdom is superior to this guy who was the best. Further, comparing a Football QB & a Pitcher in terms of play calling vs pitch selection is like Apples & Oranges. Not even close to a similar dynamic. The Pitcher / Hitter dynamic is an individual battle. The critical components on the pitchers end of it are confidence, a feel for the particular pitch on a given day, all of his combined experience in reading a hitters reaction / swing & having a plan of attack.

Simply nodding your head to some coach who probably could not play a lick back in the day is not the way to grow as a player. You are displaying a clear lack of understanding & obviously have never been on the mound in any meaningful capacity.

I was a high school coach for 21 years.  We always called pitches from the bench.  1.  I didn't want to let a 16 year old kid have the extra pressure of making decisions that could win or lose games for his team.  2.  I played catcher at a D1 college and definitely thought that I had a better feel for hitters than high school catchers would.  3.  I agree with the positioning of infielders and outfielders from pitch to pitch that the catcher may not be aware of.  One coach was moving fielders and the other was sending in the pitch.  We always had a sign to allow the pitcher to throw his best pitch in certain situations.  He had the ability to shake the catcher until he got the pitch he had the most confidence in.  We also made our pitchers shake at different times just to keep hitters guessing.  I never got to call my own game until my senior year in college.  Most colleges are calling every pitch from the dugout.  

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

Go44dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

I expect my son's HS coach to play to win. Every game.  And that most likely means he calls the pitches.  Just get the calls in quick so kids can play with tempo.

Save the development focus for the travel teams when you pay to get developed.

Let me ask you a couple questions .Let's say your son is a pitcher. Would he be a better off having been on the mound for 4 years with a coach who was OK with letting him shake & throw his own game or simply nodding like a robot for fear of chapping the coach?

I totally understand playing to win & get it. I simply have a differing take on it & understand the fact that this is HS baseball & 1 team wins the State Championship & the rest of them are really irrelevant in terms of Win / Loss records as the years go by. In short, nobody really gives a rip if your team went 18-6, 14-14 or 6-14 within about 10 minutes after the last game.

Would the pitcher be better off for the experience of learning from mistakes? For sure.

Would the team be better off? That's the bigger question.

I prefer the freshman who has coaches calling pitches, but then asking at the end of every inning/game the mindset behind what was called. Maybe asking why we didn't try this or that. Or maybe flat out saying "I would have felt better throwing ...."

Then, by the time he' been doing that for a couple of years, he and I will be on the same page, and I will know that he understands the game and what we're trying to accomplish with each hitter, and he will have a lot more leeway or input or decision making capabilities, whatever you want to call it.

But to think I'm going to let a kid who may not understand how to do it simply take it over for the betterment of him and only him right away simply isn't going to happen.

 

 

I actually agree with most of that. My problem is that the kid is a Freshman & has no clue how to pitch. He has had coaches like yourself all the way along who have felt pressure to win & therefore pushed the learning element further & further along. If he had been free to learn, he would shake the 2-0 FB with a base open & the 4 Hole Guy up in a tight spot & snap in a 2-0 bender & you would smile & say, "that kid gets it." This would not happen on your team because you have steered the ship with white knuckles.  

Steve A. posted:

ironhorse posted:

If 95% of amateur baseball calls pitches (meaning HS and college really), and 99% of amateur football calls plays (meaning HS and college really), are 95-99% of all coaches simply fueled by ego?

That's ignorant.

I guess you need to pick up the phone & call Billy Wagner & tell him he is ignorant. Surely your wisdom is superior to this guy who was the best. Further, comparing a Football QB & a Pitcher in terms of play calling vs pitch selection is like Apples & Oranges. Not even close to a similar dynamic. The Pitcher / Hitter dynamic is an individual battle. The critical components on the pitchers end of it are confidence, a feel for the particular pitch on a given day, all of his combined experience in reading a hitters reaction / swing & having a plan of attack.

Simply nodding your head to some coach who probably could not play a lick back in the day is not the way to grow as a player. You are displaying a clear lack of understanding & obviously have never been on the mound in any meaningful capacity.

Billy?  is that you?  I live in Houston and am a big fan.

I was a high school coach for 21 years.  We always called pitches from the bench.  1.  I didn't want to let a 16 year old kid have the extra pressure of making decisions that could win or lose games for his team.  2.  I played catcher at a D1 college and definitely thought that I had a better feel for hitters than high school catchers would.  3.  I agree with the positioning of infielders and outfielders from pitch to pitch that the catcher may not be aware of.  One coach was moving fielders and the other was sending in the pitch.  We always had a sign to allow the pitcher to throw his best pitch in certain situations.  He had the ability to shake the catcher until he got the pitch he had the most confidence in.  We also made our pitchers shake at different times just to keep hitters guessing.  I never got to call my own game until my senior year in college.  Most colleges are calling every pitch from the dugout.  

Overthehill posted:

I was a high school coach for 21 years.  We always called pitches from the bench.  1.  I didn't want to let a 16 year old kid have the extra pressure of making decisions that could win or lose games for his team.  2.  I played catcher at a D1 college and definitely thought that I had a better feel for hitters than high school catchers would.  3.  I agree with the positioning of infielders and outfielders from pitch to pitch that the catcher may not be aware of.  One coach was moving fielders and the other was sending in the pitch.  We always had a sign to allow the pitcher to throw his best pitch in certain situations.  He had the ability to shake the catcher until he got the pitch he had the most confidence in.  We also made our pitchers shake at different times just to keep hitters guessing.  I never got to call my own game until my senior year in college.  Most colleges are calling every pitch from the dugout.  

I want my kids to like the pressure, not worry about "extra pressure." What are you really protecting them from? Getting their feelings hurt? Welcome to pitching & life buddy. Now get another ball from the Umpire & keep challenging these guys.

Steve A. posted:

Go44dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

I expect my son's HS coach to play to win. Every game.  And that most likely means he calls the pitches.  Just get the calls in quick so kids can play with tempo.

Save the development focus for the travel teams when you pay to get developed.

Let me ask you a couple questions .Let's say your son is a pitcher. Would he be a better off having been on the mound for 4 years with a coach who was OK with letting him shake & throw his own game or simply nodding like a robot for fear of chapping the coach?

I totally understand playing to win & get it. I simply have a differing take on it & understand the fact that this is HS baseball & 1 team wins the State Championship & the rest of them are really irrelevant in terms of Win / Loss records as the years go by. In short, nobody really gives a rip if your team went 18-6, 14-14 or 6-14 within about 10 minutes after the last game.

1) Son is a pitcher 2) that's not really a question

Record doesn't matter.  Playing to win matters.  That's what life is like.

Go44dad posted:

Steve A. posted:

Go44dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

I expect my son's HS coach to play to win. Every game.  And that most likely means he calls the pitches.  Just get the calls in quick so kids can play with tempo.

Save the development focus for the travel teams when you pay to get developed.

Let me ask you a couple questions .Let's say your son is a pitcher. Would he be a better off having been on the mound for 4 years with a coach who was OK with letting him shake & throw his own game or simply nodding like a robot for fear of chapping the coach?

I totally understand playing to win & get it. I simply have a differing take on it & understand the fact that this is HS baseball & 1 team wins the State Championship & the rest of them are really irrelevant in terms of Win / Loss records as the years go by. In short, nobody really gives a rip if your team went 18-6, 14-14 or 6-14 within about 10 minutes after the last game.

1) Son is a pitcher 2) that's not really a question

Record doesn't matter.  Playing to win matters.  That's what life is like.

So trusting your son to throw his own game = not playing to win? Is that a question?

I also believe that if you are a good coach, you, your catcher, and your pitcher should be all on the same page.  We talked after innings about different pitches in different situations.  I felt like my pitchers were more at ease knowing that their coach was calling the same pitch that they had planned to throw.  Whenever there was a doubt in their mind, I helped with the decision.  I lived with pitchers for four years in college.  We had lots of discussions about pitching in high pressure situations.  They always agreed that they trusted my decisions.  Little things that the average person doesn't think about can come in to play.  Here are some examples, a hitter moving up and in to bunt, deep in the box, front of the box, on the plate, off the plate.  Hitters give lots of things away from at bat to at bat.  Even as much as what he says to himself under his breath between pitches.  You may laugh, but it's all true.  "Damn, why can't I hit that pitch anymore?'  Good chance he'll see that one again sometime in the at bat.  How about the catcher looking at base runners, do they pay attention to that in HS?  Probably not.  Watch runners on first the next few high school and even college games you are at.  They get the steal sign and a big majority will always take a peek at 2nd base to make sure it is still there.  Pitch out, fastball away, take advantage of what they give you.  Sorry so long. 

Steve A, I wasn't talking about the pressure of the game.  I was talking about the team aspect.  We win together, we lose together, and the decisions made were the coaches fault not a 16 year old kid.  

Pitch calling is, in essence, a coaching strategy. Strategy is the domain of the coach in high school baseball. I have always held the position that a catcher learns quite a lot about the game by paying attention to how a coach calls a game. A good coach will discuss his game plan with his battery and share his expertise. They can benefit without calling the game themselves. There have been times I let the catcher/pitcher call the game, but those were learning moments - not to learn how to call a game, but to learn to pay attention to overall strategy.

Now, in the majors, where catchers have extensive scouting reports and often have seen the same batters hundreds of times, they are, in effect, coaches on the field and are armed with what they need to call a game. In high school, they simply aren't. When the time comes, if they've had the benefit of a good high school/college coach and paid attention to how he calls a game, they'll be ready.

OK, for all of the HS "Non-Shakers" out there. For those of you just in love with the HS coach calling all shots & "playing to win," let me ask you this. If I turn on a MLB game & watch it & Clayton Kershaw or Strassburg or Name a pitcher gets a sign from the catcher & shakes 2X & then throws a pitch, is he "playing to win?" I think we would say yes, but well he is a MLB Pitcher & knows what he is doing etc etc. Yes, correct.

When exactly, then, does he get the green light to shake & throw his own game? Pro Ball? Maybe if he goes to a few select colleges or JUCO? If the answer, according to what appears to be the consensus here, is that there shall be no shaking in MS, HS, College then apparently you need to somehow sign with MiLB in order to shake & learn how to actually pitch. Aren't these guys in MiLB trying to win? Aren't they trying to develop the most polished, winning pitcher possible? Yes, of course they are. This is why they throw their own game. Because it creates a WINNING PITCHER.  "Well, you can't really do that with a youth pitcher." I can hear it already. I will simply call BS on that because I have seen it & done it. It is the COACHING EGO that blocks the development of youth pitchers. Plain & simple. 

I also believe that if you are a good coach, you, your catcher, and your pitcher should be all on the same page.  We talked after innings about different pitches in different situations.  I felt like my pitchers were more at ease knowing that their coach was calling the same pitch that they had planned to throw.  Whenever there was a doubt in their mind, I helped with the decision.  I lived with pitchers for four years in college.  We had lots of discussions about pitching in high pressure situations.  They always agreed that they trusted my decisions.  Little things that the average person doesn't think about can come in to play.  Here are some examples, a hitter moving up and in to bunt, deep in the box, front of the box, on the plate, off the plate.  Hitters give lots of things away from at bat to at bat.  Even as much as what he says to himself under his breath between pitches.  You may laugh, but it's all true.  "Damn, why can't I hit that pitch anymore?'  Good chance he'll see that one again sometime in the at bat.  How about the catcher looking at base runners, do they pay attention to that in HS?  Probably not.  Watch runners on first the next few high school and even college games you are at.  They get the steal sign and a big majority will always take a peek at 2nd base to make sure it is still there.  Pitch out, fastball away, take advantage of what they give you.  Sorry so long. 

totally agree!

Overthehill posted:

Steve A, I wasn't talking about the pressure of the game.  I was talking about the team aspect.  We win together, we lose together, and the decisions made were the coaches fault not a 16 year old kid.  

Yes sir. Respect that & understand your point. I am simply saying that if the coach calls a FB & Billy hits it 400' for a game winner, trust me, Your Pitcher gave up the dinger, not the coach, whether the coach called it or not. He will take it with him forever & the Coach will say he missed his spot.

I'm not sure how a Coach's Ego would come into play here.  Pitchers need to learn how to pitch by paying attention as the game goes.  Do coaches need to let kids steal, hit and run, and bunt whenever they choose?  Your MLB example are of pitchers who HAVE learned how to pitch, and have people behind them to adjust to situations and different hitters.  Most high school teams don't have kids on the same page as MLB players.  They are there because they see the little things, communicate from pitch to pitch and hitter to hitter.  They've learned to look for these things from coaches positioning them and experience.  

Now, I've never had a problem with the pitcher occasionally shaking off the pitch if he doesn't feel comfortable with it as long as it isn't a constant habit.

I truly get both points here. On the one hand I totally agree the pitcher is on the hook. And therefore should be in command. Similar to a recent thread about who was in charge catcher or pitcher. I say it's the pitcher. OTOH it is the coaches job to coach. If the coach feels strongly about a pitch the pitcher needs to throw it. That's the way life works. Ever work in corporate America?  When some less than brilliant middle manager comes up with an idea the lower ranks have to use it no matter how inane it is. Obviously as I stated earlier in the thread it is best when coach, pitcher and catcher all sit together and discuss. Catchers input pretty much stops at what pitches seem to be working and how those pitches are being located. Then coach and pitcher based on this input come up with a plan of attack. Catcher then follows the plan. Understand pitchers need to control his game.  But also think of this, if the pitcher wants to consider himself good shouldn't he be able to throw any pitch at any time?  If he is not strong and confident regardless of what the coach calls maybe he shouldn't be a pitcher. So I see both sides but the development issue I can't buy. Cause the fact of the matter is the catcher is likely never at any level to have full control. And the pitcher will have to reach the highest levels and with great results to have that kind of freedom. So what would you be developing them for?  

I agree, there are lots of times during a game when we gave the pitcher the option to throw his BEST pitch.   There is a happy medium here.  I never called every pitch of every game.  Different pitchers and catchers got more freedom as their confidence and decision making improved.  I never felt like I was constricting any pitcher, just trying to teach him how to pitch.  It's easier to do with kids you coach 2 or 3 years.

cabbagedad posted:

This is a discussion/debate that comes up fairly often here.  As some have pointed out, most HS and college programs have a coach call pitches and there are many valid reasons.  Will your HS son catcher actually be up on scouting reports and spray charts of opponents as much as the most qualified coach on staff?  Even if he is, will his other responsibilities suffer a bit in order for him to keep track of all this?  The catcher has so many responsibilities and things to keep track of without calling pitches.  How many HS kids are really equipped to add that and put the team in a better position to win than if that qualified coach was calling? 

I agree that a catcher will learn a lot from calling games and there are right times to have him do so.  We do it with our summer games and most inter-squads.  In the rare instance where a C shows the ability to handle this well without the rest of his game suffering, we're all for it. 

Also, it does depend on the coach alignment as well.  Is there a qualified coach who knows his P's, can do it and put the team in a better position to win? 

Coach' analogy of the football QB is a good one.  No one ever says "well, how is he supposed to learn the game?" when the QB doesn't call plays.  Is It "over-coaching" when the FB HC calls plays?

Actually, I think I disagree. I think they are a bit different. Football QBs should be learning to read the defense and know his progressions during the play. He should be learning what audibles to call after a defense is set. He needs to be able to identify, along with his center, the MIKE linebacker for that play. With all of those things to learn, I think it's ok for the coach to signal in the play call. The QB has plenty of responsibilities already -- assuming they are running an offense with a bit of sophistication to it. 

 

Of course, there are sophistication levels of the game (that you point out in your post) for a catcher as well regarding defensive alignment, opposing batters history and opposing hitter weaknesses.  And that would be a lot to take on....however, learning to put together a good sequence (changing locations, varying pitches etc. ) would be a nice thing for catchers to get more time in the saddle doing.

I also understand that coaches need to win. So, I agree with the point above about possibly getting more if that training in travel versus high school. 

full disclosure here..,Son  is a catcher so you have to take that into consideration. 

Steve A I'm not sure how it's possible to criticize ironhorse for being close minded for wanting to call pitches as a coach when you've done nothing but generalize and stereotype all the pitch calling coaches as a tyrant that coaches through fear?  Little hypocritical there to be honest.

Couple of observations

1.  Just because a coach calls pitches doesn't mean he's coaching through fear / intimidation.  I typically call pitches but I want input from both pitcher and catcher.  They are out there on the front lines.  It helps create a system to teach them how to call pitches through our conversations.  It helps create ownership in them to learn because their opinion has value

2. You criticize ironhorse way of getting Freshmen, call their games, talk to learn and eventually let them take over because it's better for them to get out there and make mistakes.  But what is the catcher is dumb as a box of rocks?  I've had guys who were amazing physically - block, frame, throw, hit - but just couldn't get it mentally.  I wouldn't even signal plays in through them because I was afraid they couldn't do it after spending hours teaching them.  You willing to let them learn in that way?

3.  Pro ball players get to spend a few more hours honing their craft and be around the most intelligent baseball people than amateur players.  Those amateur players have to go to those silly classes that take up most of the day.  It's easier to teach when you can sit down with a coach and break down film to teach whatever.  But I can't just pull that kid out of biology to break down film especially when I'm teaching the Civil War.

You talk about coaches having egos but you may want to look in the mirror.  You have done nothing but criticize anybody and anything that doesn't fall in line with your beliefs.

PLAYWITHEFFORT-mine is a catcher as well.  Here's the devil's advocate part of this discussion.  What if the high school coach gives the reins to his players?  Who now is in charge?  The pitcher or the catcher?  I could see both having a different plan of action.  My other concern is what about pitch position.  What if you have a pitcher that throws hard?  Me, being a catcher my whole playing career, would like to know is he throwing inside or out?  Putting 1 finger down and knowing a fast ball is coming is ok, but I'd like to know his intentions.   As a catcher, it was my job to take care of the pitcher.  Including taking care of his mistakes, pitches in the dirt, etc.  Is a pitcher really ever in control?  College freshman pitchers didn't get to pitch much shaking off senior catchers.  

Steve A. posted:

ironhorse posted:

If 95% of amateur baseball calls pitches (meaning HS and college really), and 99% of amateur football calls plays (meaning HS and college really), are 95-99% of all coaches simply fueled by ego?

That's ignorant.

I guess you need to pick up the phone & call Billy Wagner & tell him he is ignorant. Surely your wisdom is superior to this guy who was the best. Further, comparing a Football QB & a Pitcher in terms of play calling vs pitch selection is like Apples & Oranges. Not even close to a similar dynamic. The Pitcher / Hitter dynamic is an individual battle. The critical components on the pitchers end of it are confidence, a feel for the particular pitch on a given day, all of his combined experience in reading a hitters reaction / swing & having a plan of attack.

Simply nodding your head to some coach who probably could not play a lick back in the day is not the way to grow as a player. You are displaying a clear lack of understanding & obviously have never been on the mound in any meaningful capacity.

If you could link to the interview, and Billy Wagner actually said that HS coaches call pitches solely because of ego, then yes I would call him ignorant. 

How Wagner's stellar pro career, or whatever minor league career you had, have any impact on my opinion of how to develop pitchers or catchers is something I don't quite follow. I have known a lot of pro ball guys that are crappy coaches. Some are good, no doubt. But being on the mound for a big moment in Scranton-WIlkes Barre on bobblehead night doesn't really give you all the insight you'll ever need of how to teach a growing catcher. 

You obviously are too close minded to have a real discussion about this. Not sure why its so personal to you. More than one way to teach baseball I think. You keep coaching up your 13 year olds the way you want to, and I'll run my program the way I want to. 

 

 

 

Steve A. posted:

Go44dad posted:

Steve A. posted:

Go44dad posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

From my experience it is mostly a case of the coach not having the ability to tuck his ego in his back pocket & let the kids play & learn how to play from their mistakes.

Completely disagree, but to each their own.

I expect my son's HS coach to play to win. Every game.  And that most likely means he calls the pitches.  Just get the calls in quick so kids can play with tempo.

Save the development focus for the travel teams when you pay to get developed.

Let me ask you a couple questions .Let's say your son is a pitcher. Would he be a better off having been on the mound for 4 years with a coach who was OK with letting him shake & throw his own game or simply nodding like a robot for fear of chapping the coach?

I totally understand playing to win & get it. I simply have a differing take on it & understand the fact that this is HS baseball & 1 team wins the State Championship & the rest of them are really irrelevant in terms of Win / Loss records as the years go by. In short, nobody really gives a rip if your team went 18-6, 14-14 or 6-14 within about 10 minutes after the last game.

1) Son is a pitcher 2) that's not really a question

Record doesn't matter.  Playing to win matters.  That's what life is like.

So trusting your son to throw his own game = not playing to win? Is that a question?

Putting a ? at the end of an either/or you created  wouldn't get you a "C" in 7th grade debate class.  Can you tell us what is really bothering you?

Easy guys, It's baseball!  Greatest game ever invented.  There are so many variables in this game that most will never even get close to understanding them all.  Including Me!  That's why I like this website, the good, the bad, and the ugly.  All part of the game.  

Son is a catcher and calls the pitches.  I didn't realize that most coaches call the pitches.  I really need to start paying closer attention at games, haha.

I wonder if that would be a good topic for son to ask coaches at future visits?  "Do your catchers call pitches?"  Might give them something to discuss for a few minutes.

Overthehill posted:

PLAYWITHEFFORT-mine is a catcher as well.  Here's the devil's advocate part of this discussion.  What if the high school coach gives the reins to his players?  Who now is in charge?  The pitcher or the catcher?  I could see both having a different plan of action.  My other concern is what about pitch position.  What if you have a pitcher that throws hard?  Me, being a catcher my whole playing career, would like to know is he throwing inside or out?  Putting 1 finger down and knowing a fast ball is coming is ok, but I'd like to know his intentions.   As a catcher, it was my job to take care of the pitcher.  Including taking care of his mistakes, pitches in the dirt, etc.  Is a pitcher really ever in control?  College freshman pitchers didn't get to pitch much shaking off senior catchers.  

Either coach calls the pitches or you have a catcher that a) either calls the pitches based on his knowledge or b) calls the pitches with a keen insight into what the pitcher is "thinking" - with the ability to shake a few if they miss one another.  Without a solid catcher, then you have no choice but to defer to coach.  I've read about some MLB catchers who basically have the same level of expertise as most of the coaches, but then again they get paid - that is their job to study teams/players as well as their pitchers.  Some MLB pitchers know as much or more about opposing hitters and expect their catcher to get on board and get most calls right with the occasional shake.  Maybe that is a little old school and some of the sabermatics guys are taking over pitch calling duites (maybe there is some computer secretly solving for the most effective pitch at any given time).

Overthehill posted:

Easy guys, It's baseball!  Greatest game ever invented.  There are so many variables in this game that most will never even get close to understanding them all.  Including Me!  That's why I like this website, the good, the bad, and the ugly.  All part of the game.  

I agree on the game.  But I think it is really a very simple game.  Hitter, see ball, hit ball if a strike.  Pitcher, hit catchers glove, change speeds.  Fielder, catch ball when it's hit to you, then throw it where your supposed to.

But not easy to consistently do.

Steve I think maybe you are having a bad day. Or there really is something personal about this. Not sure. I think all of us who have coached and responded to this acknowledged that we consult both pitcher and catcher to varying degrees to make a plan of attack for pitch calling. Now when we take the field why does it matter so much if the coach actually calls those pitches?  The time for a pitcher to express himself was in the meeting!  Occasional shake off in non critical situations is fine. But I have to be honest in a tight situation as a coach I want to be at the reigns. I don't think this makes coaches ego maniacs. Just doing their job. Steve I am sure you have a lot to add but you do have to admit you have been a bit combative on this. Maybe you could help us understand why. Usually in these situations there is a back story. 

Truth is the one guy that knows what pitch is most likely to work... is the pitcher in most situations.  It's not every day that a pitcher has complete command of all his pitches.  He knows what pitch he wants to throw and has the most confidence in.  That is the pitch I would want him to throw.  It is more important for him to throw the pitch he feels best about, than the one I feel best about.  The second guy that knows what pitch is likely to work best... is the catcher, provided he isn't a dunce.

At the same time, often the coach knows his players and feels extra confident his pitcher will perform whatever pitch is called.

But IMO even when the coach is calling the pitches, there has to be some leeway given to the catcher and mostly the pitcher to change that pitch.  That is if the coach has people at those positions that he trusts. 

If all of this sounds like I'm on both sides of the fence about this, it is because I am.  I do think in a few isolated cases, coaches are calling pitches just because others are doing it and some have no idea of what they are doing. Might as well be pulling the pitch call out of a hat. However, especially at the higher levels, there are coaches that are great at it. All those that call pitches, just like all those that throw pitches, are not created equal.

PGStaff posted:

Truth is the one guy that knows what pitch is most likely to work... is the pitcher in most situations.  It's not every day that a pitcher has complete command of all his pitches.  He knows what pitch he wants to throw and has the most confidence in.  That is the pitch I would want him to throw.  It is more important for him to throw the pitch he feels best about, than the one I feel best about.  The second guy that knows what pitch is likely to work best... is the catcher, provided he isn't a dunce.

At the same time, often the coach knows his players and feels extra confident his pitcher will perform whatever pitch is called.

But IMO even when the coach is calling the pitches, there has to be some leeway given to the catcher and mostly the pitcher to change that pitch.  That is if the coach has people at those positions that he trusts. 

If all of this sounds like I'm on both sides of the fence about this, it is because I am.  I do think in a few isolated cases, coaches are calling pitches just because others are doing it and some have no idea of what they are doing. Might as well be pulling the pitch call out of a hat. However, especially at the higher levels, there are coaches that are great at it. All those that call pitches, just like all those that throw pitches, are not created equal.

Exactly. When it's the case that a pitcher isn't comfortable with a pitch I'm calling, he needs to be able to shake it off. If he continues to be uncomfortable with certain pitches in certain situations, then I need to adjust my pitch calling based on his comfort level. There does have to be some give-and-take.

 

An old but good article from the perspective of a highly respected and successful college coach on the subject of calling pitches.

 

http://www.baseballnews.com/ol...s/callingpitches.htm

Backpick25 posted:

 

An old but good article from the perspective of a highly respected and successful college coach on the subject of calling pitches.

 

http://www.baseballnews.com/ol...s/callingpitches.htm

However, that article is a little old and I believe Rice coaches do call the pitches now. At least it seemed that way from the three or four games I watched this year.

Root, As stated, it's old but still applicable. You ever heard of decoy signage. It happens or he might have a dunce  

In my observation, I come to realize this is a debate of where you come from. As a youth player, I was fortunate enough to be coached by a former mlb catcher. He did let his catchers call the game and make their own mistakes.

Former mlb catchers Mike Matheny and Brad Ausmus are advocates of youth catchers calling their own game.  

http://mikematheny.com/mikes-blog/calling-pitches

 

A nice piece on the shortage of catchers. 

https://www.thestar.com/sports...d-catchers-gone.html

I'm not sure  what  there would be to gain by having the catcher look to the dugout, then to the wristband, and then call the pitch. I'm more inclined to believe that 10 years ago Rice had catchers call the game and now they don't.

I have no problem  with  the  catcher calling the game if that's  what a coach wants to do. I just don't do it and don't think I'm  depriving my catchers of anything.

coach2709 posted:

Steve A I'm not sure how it's possible to criticize ironhorse for being close minded for wanting to call pitches as a coach when you've done nothing but generalize and stereotype all the pitch calling coaches as a tyrant that coaches through fear?  Little hypocritical there to be honest.

Couple of observations

1.  Just because a coach calls pitches doesn't mean he's coaching through fear / intimidation.  I typically call pitches but I want input from both pitcher and catcher.  They are out there on the front lines.  It helps create a system to teach them how to call pitches through our conversations.  It helps create ownership in them to learn because their opinion has value

2. You criticize ironhorse way of getting Freshmen, call their games, talk to learn and eventually let them take over because it's better for them to get out there and make mistakes.  But what is the catcher is dumb as a box of rocks?  I've had guys who were amazing physically - block, frame, throw, hit - but just couldn't get it mentally.  I wouldn't even signal plays in through them because I was afraid they couldn't do it after spending hours teaching them.  You willing to let them learn in that way?

3.  Pro ball players get to spend a few more hours honing their craft and be around the most intelligent baseball people than amateur players.  Those amateur players have to go to those silly classes that take up most of the day.  It's easier to teach when you can sit down with a coach and break down film to teach whatever.  But I can't just pull that kid out of biology to break down film especially when I'm teaching the Civil War.

You talk about coaches having egos but you may want to look in the mirror.  You have done nothing but criticize anybody and anything that doesn't fall in line with your beliefs.

Hi Coach, I do not think you have misunderstood some of what my point is. I will boil it down to this: If winning is the #1 Priority for a HS Coach, then absolutely yes, if he has a clue, the team would likely have a better chance to win if he calls pitches. If developing the pitcher is the motive, then absolutely without question letting him shake & throw his own game is the way to go. This is my OPINION that happens to be shared by many with vastly more experience than myself or anyone else probably posting here. I offered it & suggested that the coaching ego is the primary factor in determining which side of this fence you fall on. Ironhorse told me I was "ignorant." Now, I am ignorant on many things but I am not ignorant on this topic.

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

ironhorse posted:

If 95% of amateur baseball calls pitches (meaning HS and college really), and 99% of amateur football calls plays (meaning HS and college really), are 95-99% of all coaches simply fueled by ego?

That's ignorant.

I guess you need to pick up the phone & call Billy Wagner & tell him he is ignorant. Surely your wisdom is superior to this guy who was the best. Further, comparing a Football QB & a Pitcher in terms of play calling vs pitch selection is like Apples & Oranges. Not even close to a similar dynamic. The Pitcher / Hitter dynamic is an individual battle. The critical components on the pitchers end of it are confidence, a feel for the particular pitch on a given day, all of his combined experience in reading a hitters reaction / swing & having a plan of attack.

Simply nodding your head to some coach who probably could not play a lick back in the day is not the way to grow as a player. You are displaying a clear lack of understanding & obviously have never been on the mound in any meaningful capacity.

If you could link to the interview, and Billy Wagner actually said that HS coaches call pitches solely because of ego, then yes I would call him ignorant. 

How Wagner's stellar pro career, or whatever minor league career you had, have any impact on my opinion of how to develop pitchers or catchers is something I don't quite follow. I have known a lot of pro ball guys that are crappy coaches. Some are good, no doubt. But being on the mound for a big moment in Scranton-WIlkes Barre on bobblehead night doesn't really give you all the insight you'll ever need of how to teach a growing catcher. 

You obviously are too close minded to have a real discussion about this. Not sure why its so personal to you. More than one way to teach baseball I think. You keep coaching up your 13 year olds the way you want to, and I'll run my program the way I want to. 

 

 

 

Wow, clearly I pushed the hot button with you. I do not recall Wagner suggesting ego was a factor. That is all me & my observations through the years. I will say this though. If I were a HS coach & someone like Wagner did it a different way & had success, I may be willing to take a second look at my approach. I simply mentioned my experience to lend some insight into where I derive my OPINION. It is simply an OPINION, not fact & certainly subject to debate & I may even be wrong & would be happy to be convinced of it. I have learned more about pitching & mechanics in the years since I hung em up than all of my playing days combined. I have not done this by simply looking at the way I did it & suggesting that is the way it needs to be done.

Finally, if it were ego with me & I knew more than everybody would not I be the guy in the dugout, like you, calling every pitch because I am smarter, more experienced & overall just awesome? Quite the contrary. I am the one letting go & allowing my kids to make mistakes & learn from them. I am the one ADMITTING that I may not know the correct pitch on every scenario & trusting my guys to shake & get to it FOR THEM. At the end of it, nobody really cares about you or "your program" other than maybe your Mom so get over yourself. 

Ignorant to me means lacking knowledge in a subject. Please explain to me how you (or Billy Wagner) have any knowledge of me or my motivations for things I do when coaching. You have never met me, and other than a few posts don't know anything about me. If you can't speak expertly to my mindset and motivations (without generalizations or assumptions), then you are by definition ignorant.

Please also explain the "vast experience" of you and the other people of this position. And please understand that playing experience doesn't expressly translate to understanding coaching or how to develop players. Think that sounds a little egotistical to me.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who feel like you do who have much more experience than me, and are probably better coaches, and I have no problem with that. I'm comfortable with how we do it. (And my ego loves it, too.)

 

 

Now that's funny. Made me laugh. Hey look, you are probably a good dude & a good coach who obviously cares otherwise you would not bother with this stuff. My experience or anybody else's experience does not trump anything. It is simply having been there & living through scenarios where I had pitches I knew were right & being called in from the dugout & then letting it go with bad results. Virtually every time I threw a pitch I did not want to throw it was not a quality offering & usually got hit hard. This was MY experience & I do not think it is uncommon. This is why you hear talk about throwing a pitch "with conviction." You must do this to really be successful at a high level. Most people fall into the category of "if it's my idea, I will have a better rate of success," so to speak. Pitching is no different. If you have a rock head behind the plate, shake him & do your thing.

Your team would probably beat my team in the short run but I would probably churn out more high end polished pitchers. Just a different approach & your ego would feel better  but I would sleep better knowing I churned out kids who could think for themselves, were accountable & had no fear of a big spot. In the end with 99% of HS kids not moving on to a next level, I feel this is a better approach. You feel different but i think you should try it in a soft scenario just to see what happens. The results may surprise you. All good & enjoy the dialogue.    

Steve A. posted:

Your team would probably beat my team in the short run but I would probably churn out more high end polished pitchers. Just a different approach & your ego would feel better  but I would sleep better knowing I churned out kids who could think for themselves, were accountable & had no fear of a big spot. In the end with 99% of HS kids not moving on to a next level, I feel this is a better approach. You feel different but i think you should try it in a soft scenario just to see what happens. The results may surprise you. All good & enjoy the dialogue.    

Eh. We'll agree to disagree on the polished pitchers part. 

Ironically, I don't even call pitches any more. I found a guy (who played pro ball!) and hired him and turned the whole pitching program over to him, because he's a lot more knowledgeable than me at it, and it frees me up a lot during games and practice. He does a great job of creating thinking pitchers.

And we had a freshman start behind the dish this year. My goal is to get him to where he can call a game by his junior year, so believe me, we're not as far apart as you think.

 

 

roothog66 posted:

PGStaff posted:

Truth is the one guy that knows what pitch is most likely to work... is the pitcher in most situations.  It's not every day that a pitcher has complete command of all his pitches.  He knows what pitch he wants to throw and has the most confidence in.  That is the pitch I would want him to throw.  It is more important for him to throw the pitch he feels best about, than the one I feel best about.  The second guy that knows what pitch is likely to work best... is the catcher, provided he isn't a dunce.

At the same time, often the coach knows his players and feels extra confident his pitcher will perform whatever pitch is called.

But IMO even when the coach is calling the pitches, there has to be some leeway given to the catcher and mostly the pitcher to change that pitch.  That is if the coach has people at those positions that he trusts. 

If all of this sounds like I'm on both sides of the fence about this, it is because I am.  I do think in a few isolated cases, coaches are calling pitches just because others are doing it and some have no idea of what they are doing. Might as well be pulling the pitch call out of a hat. However, especially at the higher levels, there are coaches that are great at it. All those that call pitches, just like all those that throw pitches, are not created equal.

Exactly. When it's the case that a pitcher isn't comfortable with a pitch I'm calling, he needs to be able to shake it off. If he continues to be uncomfortable with certain pitches in certain situations, then I need to adjust my pitch calling based on his comfort level. There does have to be some give-and-take.

This makes total sense to me so you had better reevaluate everything you are doing...

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

Your team would probably beat my team in the short run but I would probably churn out more high end polished pitchers. Just a different approach & your ego would feel better  but I would sleep better knowing I churned out kids who could think for themselves, were accountable & had no fear of a big spot. In the end with 99% of HS kids not moving on to a next level, I feel this is a better approach. You feel different but i think you should try it in a soft scenario just to see what happens. The results may surprise you. All good & enjoy the dialogue.    

Eh. We'll agree to disagree on the polished pitchers part. 

Ironically, I don't even call pitches any more. I found a guy (who played pro ball!) and hired him and turned the whole pitching program over to him, because he's a lot more knowledgeable than me at it, and it frees me up a lot during games and practice. He does a great job of creating thinking pitchers.

And we had a freshman start behind the dish this year. My goal is to get him to where he can call a game by his junior year, so believe me, we're not as far apart as you think.

 

 

Ok, great. I am available if you have a spot open on the staff...lol. Hey, good luck & I look forward to mixing it up with you soon. Plus, it's boring if we agree on everything anyway.

Kandkfunk,

 

I agree most HS teams will scout some teams ahead of time, but I’ve never seen or heard of it for ALL opponents. If the schools in your area have the staff and capability to do it, I think it’s great.

 

You said you play 2-3 game series with every team. That’s a lot different than it is here or most other places I’m familiar with. The only teams we play more than once a season, other than the spring tournament or the playoffs, are league opponents.

 

I honestly don’t see how it takes just as long for the battery to call pitches as it does for them to be sent in from the dugout. It’s not as though most HS pitchers have a huge repertoire of pitches to choose from, but perhaps the kid you’re talking about does.

 

The issue really boils down to the philosophy of the HC because there’s no way to prove either side of the argument other than to change philosophies and compare them. Having been a catcher and having had a son who pitched under both philosophies, I can say without question that the game is more fun, success more satisfying, and development stronger for those who don’t get pitches called from the dugout. Whether or not that equates to winning is something different though.

Watch the defense players adjusting to the coaches requests. In Canberra a few years ago our American HS team playing the Aussies. Our "struggling" hitter had no clue to the pitch location.

I mentioned "would you like to know what is pitch location"? He said yes. I mentioned did you notice the CF moving to 5 steps to his left. "where do you think the pitch will be"?

The young man was not aware that the pitch would be outside. PREDICTABLE!

Every at bat, every pitch is a "learning experience". The 6th Tool.

Bob

Stats4Gnats posted:

Kandkfunk,

 

I agree most HS teams will scout some teams ahead of time, but I’ve never seen or heard of it for ALL opponents. If the schools in your area have the staff and capability to do it, I think it’s great.

 

You said you play 2-3 game series with every team. That’s a lot different than it is here or most other places I’m familiar with. The only teams we play more than once a season, other than the spring tournament or the playoffs, are league opponents.

 

I honestly don’t see how it takes just as long for the battery to call pitches as it does for them to be sent in from the dugout. It’s not as though most HS pitchers have a huge repertoire of pitches to choose from, but perhaps the kid you’re talking about does.

 

The issue really boils down to the philosophy of the HC because there’s no way to prove either side of the argument other than to change philosophies and compare them. Having been a catcher and having had a son who pitched under both philosophies, I can say without question that the game is more fun, success more satisfying, and development stronger for those who don’t get pitches called from the dugout. Whether or not that equates to winning is something different though.

1. All is a big word. We don't scout non-district games. But district we'll scout every team (except for the 1 that simply isn't competitive) before the first time we play them. We play everyone twice. 

2. Sign from coach is given very quickly, usually as the hitter has foot out of the box or 3b coach is giving signs. So the extra time spent by the defense is fairly minuscule.

cabbagedad posted:

Well, Stats, I'm certainly not surprised that you came through with yet another thinly veiled insult with your "many VALID reasons or many reasons? wink, wink" remark.

 

Why are you so paranoid about me and sure that I’m out to do nothing but insult and troll? Are you trying to say all the reason for pitches getting called from the dugout would be found valid if they were tested? Perhaps you do feel that way, but why can’t I feel differently?

 

Interesting that you give HS P's virtually no credit for being able to reasonably locate pitches yet you are a consistent proponent of giving HS catchers the added responsibility of calling pitches.  What does the catcher have to keep track of otherwise?  Total awareness of and holding runners, framing fringe pitches, communicate signs to IF's for backpicks, properly anticipate and block balls in the dirt, field bunts and be field general on those he can't get, position cuts and make split second cut/relay decisions early enough, back up IF throws to first situationally, help IF's on pop flies near fence, maintain a stream of communication from the dugout, relay defensive plays, be in tune with P and help keep him in best possible mindset to perform, maintain a favorable working relationship with PU, just to name a few. 

 

I said nothing about all pitchers not being able to “reasonably locate pitches”. You seem to constantly forget that as a whole, HS pitchers don’t meet the same standards as the top pitchers in the country. Heck, I’ve scored for teams with great pitching staffs, but the 4-5-6 guys can’t be compared to the 1&2 in almost any way, but especially in being able to hit locations accurate and often.

 

I won’t argue that the catcher has one Hell of a lot of things to do. What I would argue is whether or not those things would suffer if the catcher was calling pitches.

 

Calling pitches brings into account the added tasks of knowing hitter tendencies, identifying holes in swing, seeing hitter's timing on previous pitches, knowing situationally what offense is trying to execute and calling pitches to defend that, awareness of what pitches are working for that P that day, calling pitches and locations that are count and situation appropriate, recalling history of better hitters from past seasons and earlier games, etc., etc.

 

Perhaps I’ve just not had the privilege of scoring for a coach of your quality so I have nothing to compare what you’re saying too. But I have scored for and against some damned good ones, and haven’t seen what you’re alluding to on the scale you’re suggesting it happens. What you’re suggesting for HS is what generally takes place in ML dugouts where there’s a lot more of everything.

 

But I'm sure you are right.  We should have all HS catchers call the games.  Boy, HS catchers must be WAY smarter, more advanced and more competent than HS pitchers. 

 

What do you think would happen if NFHS made a rule that said pitches could not be sent in and everyone had the integrity to follow that rule? My guess is the smart coaches would figger out a way to teach their catchers how to fit calling pitches in with all their other duties, the way I and every other catcher was taught back when calling pitches was done by the catchers.

 

The catcher has, by far, the most responsibilities on the field.  As others have pointed out, some of the better ones can also call a good game.  But even those aren't in the position to take into account everything in a given situation as well as a qualified coach who is specifically tasked to do so.  Typically, neither are perfect.  Most often, one puts the HS team in a better position to win and the teenage HS P and C in a better position to play and execute to the best of their abilities.  

 

Reading that, your answer to the above scenario seems to be you saying every team would win less which is impossible.

 

The large majority of better HS and college programs call pitches from the dugout.  If only they had someone smarter than them, like you, to help them realize the error in their ways...  Don't you have a database of all HC's stored somewhere?  Maybe you can send them all a wink, wink.

 

Why does it always have to be a war between you and I? All I’m doing is expressing an opinion that’s shared by many other people, just as yours is. So why is it that it always me who’s being insulting and condescending to coaches, and never having a shred of truth in anything he says?

 

I never said I was smarter than anyone! It’s you who’s contending that all coaches are smarter than anyone who isn’t.

 

And FWIW, I have contacted quite a few HS and college coaches and discussed this topic with them. Not one has ever come across as being insulted because they don’t have a built in predisposition to believe I’m calling them stupid or incompetent. It’s simply a different opinion, and I’m sorry if mine has insulted you yet again.

Overthehill posted:

…3.  I agree with the positioning of infielders and outfielders from pitch to pitch that the catcher may not be aware of.  One coach was moving fielders and the other was sending in the pitch….

 

Did hitters ever notice the fielders moving and adjust accordingly?

 

ironhorse posted:

Stats4Gnats posted:

Kandkfunk,

 

I agree most HS teams will scout some teams ahead of time, but I’ve never seen or heard of it for ALL opponents. If the schools in your area have the staff and capability to do it, I think it’s great.

 

You said you play 2-3 game series with every team. That’s a lot different than it is here or most other places I’m familiar with. The only teams we play more than once a season, other than the spring tournament or the playoffs, are league opponents.

 

I honestly don’t see how it takes just as long for the battery to call pitches as it does for them to be sent in from the dugout. It’s not as though most HS pitchers have a huge repertoire of pitches to choose from, but perhaps the kid you’re talking about does.

 

The issue really boils down to the philosophy of the HC because there’s no way to prove either side of the argument other than to change philosophies and compare them. Having been a catcher and having had a son who pitched under both philosophies, I can say without question that the game is more fun, success more satisfying, and development stronger for those who don’t get pitches called from the dugout. Whether or not that equates to winning is something different though.

1. All is a big word. We don't scout non-district games. But district we'll scout every team (except for the 1 that simply isn't competitive) before the first time we play them. We play everyone twice. 

2. Sign from coach is given very quickly, usually as the hitter has foot out of the box or 3b coach is giving signs. So the extra time spent by the defense is fairly minuscule.

We're much like Ironhorse describes. I never said we scouted ALL teams. That was your word Stats.  We don't generally scout non-district games, but we don't have a lot of those - maybe 5.  We see the same kids throughout the year from Spring to summer baseball. It's not really hard to gather data over the course of time. I'm honestly not sure what is so controversial about that.

I'm not hear to argue either way. It's not my call and I have no preference. Someone asked a question. I answered with my experience and what I see in every single varsity game. Some people just like to argue and point out why everyone else is wrong. So be it.

PGStaff posted:

…If all of this sounds like I'm on both sides of the fence about this, it is because I am.  I do think in a few isolated cases, coaches are calling pitches just because others are doing it and some have no idea of what they are doing. Might as well be pulling the pitch call out of a hat. However, especially at the higher levels, there are coaches that are great at it. All those that call pitches, just like all those that throw pitches, are not created equal.

 

Very very true! And something that skews any argument on this topic in a forum like this is that those posters who have been around the longest are generally the best examples of “good” coaches and coaching practices. The problem is, when talking about ALL HS’s, we’re talking about more than 30,000 teams. That makes it ludicrous to believe ALL teams where coaches are calling pitches are doing it the way the best coaches here say they do it!

 

No matter what anyone wants to believe, there is an “average” coach just like there’s an average player or an average anything else for that matter. So even if the average coach is pretty darn good, that’s gonna leave a lot of cases where what people see isn’t very good, so it’s not at all unreasonable to believe someone can easily come across a program where things aren’t being done the best way possible.

 

That doesn’t mean there aren’t a whole lot of top notch coaches out there doing things the right way for the right reason, but it does make it prudent to believe all the good reasons for doing it and the way it should be done aren’t happening everywhere. So it shouldn’t be considered heresy or some kind of insult for someone to not just go with the flow.

Stats4Gnats posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Well, Stats, I'm certainly not surprised that you came through with yet another thinly veiled insult with your "many VALID reasons or many reasons? wink, wink" remark.

 

Why are you so paranoid about me and sure that I’m out to do nothing but insult and troll? ...

Why does it always have to be a war between you and I? ...

Paranoid would indicate irrational and unsubstantiated.  You have been booted from this site and nearly booted again on more than one occasion for this very thing.  You have clearly stood in a class all by yourself with getting into these types of arguments with other posters here over the years.  There are at least dozens of respected long time contributors who generally interpret your comments the exact same way as I do.  I have also been told by others that you have the same reputation on other sites. 

I'll just stick to just defending the initial insult and move on.

Stats4Gnats posted:

Overthehill posted:

Did hitters ever notice the fielders moving and adjust accordingly?

 

Not sure exactly what is being implied here but if, for example,  a soft pitch is being sent from the dugout & the players are shifting as the sign is given I would love to hit against this team.... Leaning to the hole at short on a RH Hitter with a changeup on the way is good baseball. Moving a step in the hole after the sign is given is bad baseball. You are tipping pitches. 

 

Hi Coach, I do not think you have misunderstood some of what my point is. I will boil it down to this: If winning is the #1 Priority for a HS Coach, then absolutely yes, if he has a clue, the team would likely have a better chance to win if he calls pitches. If developing the pitcher is the motive, then absolutely without question letting him shake & throw his own game is the way to go. This is my OPINION that happens to be shared by many with vastly more experience than myself or anyone else probably posting here. I offered it & suggested that the coaching ego is the primary factor in determining which side of this fence you fall on. Ironhorse told me I was "ignorant." Now, I am ignorant on many things but I am not ignorant on this topic.

Just so you know I'm a high school athletic director and to be perfectly honest if the HS coach isn't winning then there's a chance we may go a different route.  So winning is a priority but also being HS and coaches are dealt the hand they are dealt it's not number one priority.  Are they helping to produce good young men and do they act in a way that represents our school positively will help a coach keep their job but yes their win / loss record can play into if they will keep their job or not.  

Whether you mean to or not I'm taking most of your posts as it's one way or the other.  HS coaches are either looking to win and not develop VS just looking to develop.  Overall with most HS coaches they want to do all three - win, develop good ball players and develop good people. None of those are mutually exclusive of each other.  That's what I tried to do when I was a head coach and that's what our overall philosophy is at my school for all athletics.  The whole question of who develops more college / pro ready players is really a loaded question because there's only so much you can get out of someone based on natural God - given talent.

*********EDITED TO ADD***********

Also, I see nothing wrong with an ego.  I have an ego and every good coach has one.  Even bad ones have egos.  Yes part of my ego is tied up in wins and losses.  I want to win and I want people to to know I won.  But my ego is also tied up into developing players.  I want to develop guys in college or pro prospects.  I want people to know those kids came from my program.  Lastly, my ego is tied up in these guys becoming fine young men.  I want people to know if you leave my program you may never play baseball again but you're someone you can hire or will support a family.  Once again there's no reason both sides of the fence can't be accomplished here.

 

cabbagedad posted:…I'll just stick to just defending the initial insult and move on.

 

I can’t do anything about how anyone interprets what someone else writes, but I will say there was no insult intended. I made the observation that there is a difference between reasons and valid reasons, that’s all. You seem to be insisting that any reason is a valid one and I don't buy that.

ironhorse posted:

I never get why this is such a "hot button" for people. Why do they think a HS kid should be calling games? I've had 2 catchers go D1 the past few years, and never did a coach asked if they called their own game. If a college catcher can receive and rake, I don't see him dropping 15 rounds based on the fact his coaches called the game.

I'm not sure anyone cares as much as message boards.

I can't speak for anyone else.  I wanted to teach my catchers how to call a game because I thought that was my responsibility as a coach.  I view it no differently than teaching the various pivots for 2B and SS on a double play.  I never wanted to have a player of mine graduate thinking that I didn't take the time to really teach them the game of baseball. 

Example for yesterday.  We were playing in our Regional game yesterday and the opponent had a runner on 2B signaling location.  My catcher walked out in front of the plate, stuck her hand into the front of her face mask and moved it back and forth as if saying "no" but not moving her head.  That is a signal that her set up does not matter.  The pitcher will now throw to locations off of her body like off of either ear or top of either shin guard.   Pitcher now reads signal of 3 signs with second sign being location regardless of where catcher sets up.  She set up slightly outside and pitcher busted inside rise for a soft popup to first.  Out of the inning and we were all laughing in the dugout. 

All coaches should have this approach to the game.  Teach the kids how to play!!

I reviewed the posts on here and with few exception this is a summary of what I believe are the points of agreement.

1. At the high school varsity level coaches are expected to place their teams in the best position to win
2. At the high school varsity level coaches are supposed to accomplish this while developing players to improve the odds of winning consistently as a program
3. These objectives are not mutually exclusive
4. At the high school varsity level coaches work with the pool of players that attend that school
5. Based on the quality of youth programs, travel programs, middle school, freshman and JV programs in the area the level of that pool of players is hugely diverse.
6. Some catcher are capable, at some point in their HS Varsity career both by baseball acumen and psychological make-up of calling games on their own and achieving # 1 and #2
7. Some catchers as not capable,  at some point in their HS Varsity career both by baseball acumen and /or psychological make-up of calling games on their own and achieving # 1 and #2
8. Communication between the coach/sand the pitching staff and the catching staff helps the coaches know where individual players fall in spectrum of skills, knowledge and capabilities.

With these common understandings the answer to the question is like most answers to strategy question in baseball...IT DEPENDS.  Do you bunt a player from first to second with 0 outs?...IT DEPENDS,  do you play the infield up with 1 out and a man on 3rd? IT DEPENDS...do you play outfielders "no doubles" in the last inning with no one on base and a 1 run lead? IT DEPENDS. 

This is why they're are coach's.  Someone has to make decisions regarding all of the IT DEPENDS moments that impact players, games and programs.  No two coaches will always make the same decisions in any given scenario.  At the end of the day the beauty of baseball is that it is alive...what was "right" in the 1920's (Like letting pitchers throw 200 pitches in a day) would be considered crazy today and frankly I did not see a lot of "shifts" against Ruth or Aaron...the game changes and the best coaches and players adapt. 

IMHO, trying to argue that there is a definitive right or wrong to this topic is like teaching a pig to dance...it embarrasses you and annoys the pig...I LOVE BASEBALL!!!!!

coach2709 posted:

 

Hi Coach, I do not think you have misunderstood some of what my point is. I will boil it down to this: If winning is the #1 Priority for a HS Coach, then absolutely yes, if he has a clue, the team would likely have a better chance to win if he calls pitches. If developing the pitcher is the motive, then absolutely without question letting him shake & throw his own game is the way to go. This is my OPINION that happens to be shared by many with vastly more experience than myself or anyone else probably posting here. I offered it & suggested that the coaching ego is the primary factor in determining which side of this fence you fall on. Ironhorse told me I was "ignorant." Now, I am ignorant on many things but I am not ignorant on this topic.

Just so you know I'm a high school athletic director and to be perfectly honest if the HS coach isn't winning then there's a chance we may go a different route.  So winning is a priority but also being HS and coaches are dealt the hand they are dealt it's not number one priority.  Are they helping to produce good young men and do they act in a way that represents our school positively will help a coach keep their job but yes their win / loss record can play into if they will keep their job or not.  

Whether you mean to or not I'm taking most of your posts as it's one way or the other.  HS coaches are either looking to win and not develop VS just looking to develop.  Overall with most HS coaches they want to do all three - win, develop good ball players and develop good people. None of those are mutually exclusive of each other.  That's what I tried to do when I was a head coach and that's what our overall philosophy is at my school for all athletics.  The whole question of who develops more college / pro ready players is really a loaded question because there's only so much you can get out of someone based on natural God - given talent.

*********EDITED TO ADD***********

Also, I see nothing wrong with an ego.  I have an ego and every good coach has one.  Even bad ones have egos.  Yes part of my ego is tied up in wins and losses.  I want to win and I want people to to know I won.  But my ego is also tied up into developing players.  I want to develop guys in college or pro prospects.  I want people to know those kids came from my program.  Lastly, my ego is tied up in these guys becoming fine young men.  I want people to know if you leave my program you may never play baseball again but you're someone you can hire or will support a family.  Once again there's no reason both sides of the fence can't be accomplished here.

 

Very rational. Makes sense & I understand the perspective. I feel that if the MS Program & JV Program allowed the pitcher / catcher to steer the ship a bit (call & shake pitches), you would have Varsity Players with a far superior understanding of the game & ultimately superior players to those who just nod their head for 7 years & are told how to do it by a coach.

My opinion, again, opinion, is that yes, winning is important & the goal of the team. I get that. I can tell you that the vast majority of people you may think are impressed by your winning really could not care less. What does matter, ultimately, is the quality of individual your program produces, as you admit. I am simply suggesting that this individual would be better suited to tackle life after your program if they were trusted to think for themselves in pressure situations. There is not going to be a coach calling pitches for him in his job interview when he has to think for himself. The coach will not be there to call pitches for him when he is faced with a difficult scenario at work or in everyday life.

I employ 6 people. I can tell you that the ones who come to me every 5 minutes asking me to solve their problem (having done nothing on their own) are the ones who do not last. The ones who take the initiative, are not afraid to fail & like to "call their own game," are the stars. The others are generally yes men with limited creativity who are still looking for the coach to call the pitches. 

 

MDBallDad posted:

I reviewed the posts on here and with few exception this is a summary of what I believe are the points of agreement.

1. At the high school varsity level coaches are expected to place their teams in the best position to win
2. At the high school varsity level coaches are supposed to accomplish this while developing players to improve the odds of winning consistently as a program
3. These objectives are not mutually exclusive
4. At the high school varsity level coaches work with the pool of players that attend that school
5. Based on the quality of youth programs, travel programs, middle school, freshman and JV programs in the area the level of that pool of players is hugely diverse.
6. Some catcher are capable, at some point in their HS Varsity career both by baseball acumen and psychological make-up of calling games on their own and achieving # 1 and #2
7. Some catchers as not capable,  at some point in their HS Varsity career both by baseball acumen and /or psychological make-up of calling games on their own and achieving # 1 and #2
8. Communication between the coach/sand the pitching staff and the catching staff helps the coaches know where individual players fall in spectrum of skills, knowledge and capabilities.

With these common understandings the answer to the question is like most answers to strategy question in baseball...IT DEPENDS.  Do you bunt a player from first to second with 0 outs?...IT DEPENDS,  do you play the infield up with 1 out and a man on 3rd? IT DEPENDS...do you play outfielders "no doubles" in the last inning with no one on base and a 1 run lead? IT DEPENDS. 

This is why they're are coach's.  Someone has to make decisions regarding all of the IT DEPENDS moments that impact players, games and programs.  No two coaches will always make the same decisions in any given scenario.  At the end of the day the beauty of baseball is that it is alive...what was "right" in the 1920's (Like letting pitchers throw 200 pitches in a day) would be considered crazy today and frankly I did not see a lot of "shifts" against Ruth or Aaron...the game changes and the best coaches and players adapt. 

IMHO, trying to argue that there is a definitive right or wrong to this topic is like teaching a pig to dance...it embarrasses you and annoys the pig...I LOVE BASEBALL!!!!!

I love this response! This one of the reasons I love baseball too!

I just gotta say that numbers 4-7 are key. I am envious of the parents on here whose high schools are full of talented players. Not everyone has that luxury. Probably most schools don't have that luxury. You work with the talent and commitment level you have and you make choices about how to develop the kids to give the team the best shot.

Steve A. posted:

...

My opinion, again, opinion, is that yes, winning is important & the goal of the team. I get that. I can tell you that the vast majority of people you may think are impressed by your winning really could not care less. ..

 

Steve A, I say this knowing your background... I know you have made a run as a P in the minors and you now coach a 13u.  I predict that in four years, your perspective on this particular point will change.  HS players, parents, boosters, coaches, community supporters, AD's and others are quite interested in winning.  Do the players shake off the loss as soon as they get on the bus or in the car?  Yup, usually.  But there is a huge difference in being part of a winning program and a losing one and HS V is the level where that spotlight starts to shine.  You will come to find that it is quite different as a coach than it was as a player.  

Those same players who shake off the loss in a minute after it happens will remember very clearly 10-20-30-40 years from now if they had the big hit to win league or state or beat their big rival.  Does it matter to the rest of the world?  No.  But it will matter to each of those HS players you eventually coach over the years.  You will also find that in most HS's for most players, this is the top level, the final stop they will reach with baseball.  That's where it may take a while for you to grasp since you made it some levels beyond.  Competing and winning games at this level is the peak of their baseball careers.  It matters to them.  You will be charged with allowing for that to happen.  Along with developing high-character young men, you will want to help them in their goals to win league or state or against cross-town rival.  Letting a young catcher call your V game with that in the balance may not be quite as appealing when you are in the middle of it.  Just a prediction... 

cabbagedad posted:

Steve A. posted:

...

My opinion, again, opinion, is that yes, winning is important & the goal of the team. I get that. I can tell you that the vast majority of people you may think are impressed by your winning really could not care less. ..

 

Steve A, I say this knowing your background... I know you have made a run as a P in the minors and you now coach a 13u.  I predict that in four years, your perspective on this particular point will change.  HS players, parents, boosters, coaches, community supporters, AD's and others are quite interested in winning.  Do the players shake off the loss as soon as they get on the bus or in the car?  Yup, usually.  But there is a huge difference in being part of a winning program and a losing one and HS V is the level where that spotlight starts to shine.  You will come to find that it is quite different as a coach than it was as a player.  

Those same players who shake off the loss in a minute after it happens will remember very clearly 10-20-30-40 years from now if they had the big hit to win league or state or beat their big rival.  Does it matter to the rest of the world?  No.  But it will matter to each of those HS players you eventually coach over the years.  You will also find that in most HS's, this is the top level, the final stop they will reach with baseball.  That's where it may take a while for you to grasp since you made it some levels beyond.  Competing and winning games at this level is the peak of their baseball careers.  It matters to them.  You will be charged with allowing for that to happen.  Along with developing high-character young men, you will want to help them in their goals to win league or state or against cross-town rival.  Letting a young catcher call your V game with that in the balance may not be quite as appealing when you are in the middle of it.  Just a prediction... 

Hi Cabbage, Thanks for the response. Definitely makes sense & I appreciate the perspective. My take on it has probably been too heavily influenced by some of the coaching I have seen that has been way too heavy handed at the younger levels. Again, thanks.

Steve A. posted:

Hi Cabbage, Thanks for the response. Definitely makes sense & I appreciate the perspective. My take on it has probably been too heavily influenced by some of the coaching I have seen that has been way too heavy handed at the younger levels. Again, thanks.

I had the exact same experience and it affected not only my coaching approach but, more so, my parenting.  With my oldest son, I probably took it too far and purposely backed off in a big way with him and competitive sports.  Then, my last son surprised me when he turned out to be on the far other end of the competitive mentality.  I practically couldn't push him hard enough if I tried.  OK, by then, I sorta tried.

Oops, off topic.  Back to who should call games... I think that was the OP.  

Steve A. posted:

Very rational. Makes sense & I understand the perspective. I feel that if the MS Program & JV Program allowed the pitcher / catcher to steer the ship a bit (call & shake pitches), you would have Varsity Players with a far superior understanding of the game & ultimately superior players to those who just nod their head for 7 years & are told how to do it by a coach.

Yes if JV, MS, Travel, LL - anything before HS varsity - would do more teaching then it would be easier for us at the varsity level to turn pitch calling to catchers earlier.  But vast majority of time they do not so we have to do it if that's our philosophy.  It just takes time usually.  I don't want a head nodder and if I'm allowing him to make decisions in other aspects of the game then they won't be a head nodder in life.  It's not a black and white situation for what we turn out in the world.  A kid could have the greatest coach in the world but if he has parents that do everything for him in the rest of his life he's going to struggle in real world.

My opinion, again, opinion, is that yes, winning is important & the goal of the team. I get that. I can tell you that the vast majority of people you may think are impressed by your winning really could not care less. What does matter, ultimately, is the quality of individual your program produces, as you admit. I am simply suggesting that this individual would be better suited to tackle life after your program if they were trusted to think for themselves in pressure situations. There is not going to be a coach calling pitches for him in his job interview when he has to think for himself. The coach will not be there to call pitches for him when he is faced with a difficult scenario at work or in everyday life.

I don't care who is impressed with my win / loss record until I need it to validate my credibility.  I get a new principal then my win / loss record will go towards me keeping my job.  I want to move to a new school my win / loss record may help me get that job.  If Joe Schmo walking down the street isn't impressed with my record I don't really blame him because I don't care what his win / loss record is.  But as cabbage said wins and losses are important to the kids and that matters.  So if the kids win then so do I so my record does matter.  It may help get a kid moving in to pick my school over another one.  

The coach calling pitches for him in the job interview is trying to make a very complicated situation very simplistic.  I don't think that's a fair comparison.  I'm just a very SMALL piece of the ingredients that make a kid into a good young man who can think for himself.  If he has good parents, good teachers then he's probably going to turn out to be good and able to stand on his own even if I call every single pitch he throws.

I employ 6 people. I can tell you that the ones who come to me every 5 minutes asking me to solve their problem (having done nothing on their own) are the ones who do not last. The ones who take the initiative, are not afraid to fail & like to "call their own game," are the stars. The others are generally yes men with limited creativity who are still looking for the coach to call the pitches. 

I completely agree with this but if they are this type to ask for answers instead of figuring it out on their own probably started well before somebody called their first pitch for them.  Besides what if this guy who wants answers given to him is a right fielder?  Am I going to let him call pitches to help him learn to stand on his own?????  I'm just messing with you here but some truth to it.

 

 

Here's another aspect... our last five varsity program catchers were all pretty good and effective in a similar manner... athletic, good POP, could block, could receive, could hit.  Each was clearly our best option at the position at the time.  Vocal leaders?  One.  Others were anywhere from "took a few years" to "something we'll have to live without".   Thinkers capable of calling a good game?   No.  Four were not even close and didn't have the mindset to want to.  One was the thinker and he was into it.  That one, we tried to groom.  By the start of his senior year, skill set and thought process were coming around.  Torn labrum put a quick end to the process.

So, I know it's not ideal but we are not alone.  Often, in HS ball, the catcher with the best physical skills to play the position doesn't have the desired mindset.   

This will be my last on this subject (well, maybe not). My main objective & opinion here was to suggest that THE PITCHER, at (pick a level) should have the option to shake a pitch & throw his own game. This opinion has clearly met major resistance. In my opinion, the resistance has more to do with the ego of the coach calling the pitches that any other factor. You can pretend it's about winning & on & on but the truth of it is often there is more than 1 pitch that will work in a given scenario if executed properly, with conviction, by the pitcher who had an idea on the pitch before the fingers went down. You could take the 2 best HS Coaches in the Country & have them call a game with the same pitcher & scouting information & the calls would likely be much different. That's it.

My simple, basic philosophy has somehow now developed into my supposed belief that HS Quarterbacks should call their own plays, Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game. The players should be in charge of their own shifts, hit & runs, steals, bunts. I never suggested any of that. Although letting the catcher call em in soft scenarios or small doses will definitely pay dividends down the road for both him & your program. You would then have to coach him up more & discuss the results & selections.

Call your pitches all you want. Steer the ship all you want. Trust your pitcher to shake & throw his own & you will be surprised. If he gives up a rocket, get over yourself. You have called a ton of pitches that went into orbit also. It's the kids game & he will own the result way more than you will.

Well glad to see you read what we posted with an open mind.  But you probably think we are just as close minded as you.

Steve A. posted:

Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game.

You do believe this though, correct? I had a freshman varsity catcher this year. You seem to believe the reason he didn't call pitches was because of my ego. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

(And I had a freshman that threw, too, if that fits your philosophy better.)

 

coach2709 posted:

Well glad to see you read what we posted with an open mind.  But you probably think we are just as close minded as you.

It's all good. Not everyone sees the world the way I do. This is what makes a conversation interesting. I actually like that. It helps keep my mind "close" as you suggest.

Steve A. posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Steve A. posted:

...

My opinion, again, opinion, is that yes, winning is important & the goal of the team. I get that. I can tell you that the vast majority of people you may think are impressed by your winning really could not care less. ..

 

Steve A, I say this knowing your background... I know you have made a run as a P in the minors and you now coach a 13u.  I predict that in four years, your perspective on this particular point will change.  HS players, parents, boosters, coaches, community supporters, AD's and others are quite interested in winning.  Do the players shake off the loss as soon as they get on the bus or in the car?  Yup, usually.  But there is a huge difference in being part of a winning program and a losing one and HS V is the level where that spotlight starts to shine.  You will come to find that it is quite different as a coach than it was as a player.  

Those same players who shake off the loss in a minute after it happens will remember very clearly 10-20-30-40 years from now if they had the big hit to win league or state or beat their big rival.  Does it matter to the rest of the world?  No.  But it will matter to each of those HS players you eventually coach over the years.  You will also find that in most HS's, this is the top level, the final stop they will reach with baseball.  That's where it may take a while for you to grasp since you made it some levels beyond.  Competing and winning games at this level is the peak of their baseball careers.  It matters to them.  You will be charged with allowing for that to happen.  Along with developing high-character young men, you will want to help them in their goals to win league or state or against cross-town rival.  Letting a young catcher call your V game with that in the balance may not be quite as appealing when you are in the middle of it.  Just a prediction... 

Hi Cabbage, Thanks for the response. Definitely makes sense & I appreciate the perspective. My take on it has probably been too heavily influenced by some of the coaching I have seen that has been way too heavy handed at the younger levels. Again, thanks.

As you all know my kid is just entering 9th, so I have no knowledge of HS baseball, HOWEVER, I have a lot of knowledge of 9u-14u baseball and I can backup this statement.  I don't know how to phrase it but it's almost like the most knowledgeable coaches in youth baseball don't want to share their knowledge with an 11u kid, or a 13u kid because they don't want to take the time to explain it.  These kids aren't learning the game, they are learning to follow orders. 

I have seen a 14u pitcher pulled because he shook off ONE pitch the coach called in the third inning, the coach was furious, rather than calling time and talking to the pitcher about his choice or waiting until the inning was over the pitcher was pulled and replaced with a kid who wasn't even warmed up...doesn't sound like development. My son was a 12u 5'8, 130# player who was in 7th grade and needed a new bat in May (so he was almost an 8th grader), he asked the coach if it was okay if he got a drop 5 as opposed to a drop 10, coach said absolutely not, I want you swinging the lightest bat you are allowed to swing, again, that doesn't sound like development. 

Kids right now, for SOME coaches, seem to be learning to be automatons...don't ask questions just do what you are told.  Not sure how they are actually LEARNING the game with coaches acting like that.

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game.

You do believe this though, correct? I had a freshman varsity catcher this year. You seem to believe the reason he didn't call pitches was because of my ego. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

(And I had a freshman that threw, too, if that fits your philosophy better.)

 

Correct. Yes, your ego. Take a soft spot or opponent & let him put the fingers down for an inning or 2. So what. How bad can he really go? Then, when he calls a 2-0 changeup to the 8 hole hitter when you are up 8-0 in the 6th inning, you can discuss why this is the wrong pitch. (your frosh pitcher will probably shake it & throw a heater anyway if you let him)  They now have to think a bit for themselves at minimal risk to your team. You will find that they will throw likely more than 80% of what you would have anyway.

Steve A. posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game.

You do believe this though, correct? I had a freshman varsity catcher this year. You seem to believe the reason he didn't call pitches was because of my ego. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

(And I had a freshman that threw, too, if that fits your philosophy better.)

 

Correct. Yes, your ego. Take a soft spot or opponent & let him put the fingers down for an inning or 2. So what. How bad can he really go? Then, when he calls a 2-0 changeup to the 8 hole hitter when you are up 8-0 in the 6th inning, you can discuss why this is the wrong pitch. (your frosh pitcher will probably shake it & throw a heater anyway if you let him)  They now have to think a bit for themselves at minimal risk to your team. You will find that they will throw likely more than 80% of what you would have anyway.

See this to is what I think and what we do. But again, we pick our spots to develop him, not just let him take over handling it all right away, which is how I tool what you were advocating earlier. I'm hoping by his Junior year he can handle almost all of it. Although to be honest with this one, maybe Senior year.

To me that's not ego, it's just rational. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

 

As you all know my kid is just entering 9th, so I have no knowledge of HS baseball, HOWEVER, I have a lot of knowledge of 9u-14u baseball and I can backup this statement.  I don't know how to phrase it but it's almost like the most knowledgeable coaches in youth baseball don't want to share their knowledge with an 11u kid, or a 13u kid because they don't want to take the time to explain it.  These kids aren't learning the game, they are learning to follow orders. 

I have seen a 14u pitcher pulled because he shook off ONE pitch the coach called in the third inning, the coach was furious, rather than calling time and talking to the pitcher about his choice or waiting until the inning was over the pitcher was pulled and replaced with a kid who wasn't even warmed up...doesn't sound like development. My son was a 12u 5'8, 130# player who was in 7th grade and needed a new bat in May (so he was almost an 8th grader), he asked the coach if it was okay if he got a drop 5 as opposed to a drop 10, coach said absolutely not, I want you swinging the lightest bat you are allowed to swing, again, that doesn't sound like development. 

Kids right now, for SOME coaches, seem to be learning to be automatons...don't ask questions just do what you are told.  Not sure how they are actually LEARNING the game with coaches acting like that.

CaCo, Amen sister! Seen way too much of it. These coaches are chasing the plastic trophy as a monument to themselves under the shield of "winning" & putting development secondary. My kid has a closet full of these trinkets, medallions & plastic statues. At the time of the event, it was the most important thing in the world. Two days later nobody really cares.

This is why when Ironhorse & 2079 get these kids in HS they are reluctant to trust them to call the shots. I get that. Somebody has to step up at some point & teach the game & let these kids make a mistake. It's not the end of the world if they get it wrong.

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

ironhorse posted:

Steve A. posted:

Freshman Catchers should call all of the pitches in a Varsity Game.

You do believe this though, correct? I had a freshman varsity catcher this year. You seem to believe the reason he didn't call pitches was because of my ego. 

Correct me if I'm wrong.

(And I had a freshman that threw, too, if that fits your philosophy better.)

 

Correct. Yes, your ego. Take a soft spot or opponent & let him put the fingers down for an inning or 2. So what. How bad can he really go? Then, when he calls a 2-0 changeup to the 8 hole hitter when you are up 8-0 in the 6th inning, you can discuss why this is the wrong pitch. (your frosh pitcher will probably shake it & throw a heater anyway if you let him)  They now have to think a bit for themselves at minimal risk to your team. You will find that they will throw likely more than 80% of what you would have anyway.

See this to is what I think and what we do. But again, we pick our spots to develop him, not just let him take over handling it all right away, which is how I tool what you were advocating earlier. I'm hoping by his Junior year he can handle almost all of it. Although to be honest with this one, maybe Senior year.

To me that's not ego, it's just rational. 

Holy smokes I think we agree! Have a great Holiday weekend.

Caco3girl,

You may be right and that coach, and certainly most coaches including myself, could always do a better job explaining things.  You know me, I like to offer other possibilities with a given scenario.  

We do call pitches most of the time (as you know, HS V).  We do so with purpose.  It may be sequencing, something we see in a hitter, etc., as has been discussed in some depth here recently.  Yes, we want regular communication with P,C and coach calling.  Yes, we want P to throw what is comfortable and what is working for him that day.  Yes we want him to feel liberty to shake in the right situation.  Yes, some P's need to just throw what is called.  Yes, some coaches need to loosen the reigns and/or be more aware of what the P is comfortable throwing on a given day.  All this said, there are some situations where a P is making a big mistake shaking off a call and the best way for the coach to convey a learning moment is the instant pull.  As much as we discuss things and work through the learning curve, it doesn't happen over night and once in a while, a jolt pushes the process forward.  

In one of our last games this year, we had a P shake off my P coach call in a pivotal situation.  We are usually OK with shakes if there is a reason.  It resulted exactly as feared.  If I had another P ready, I would have yanked in a heartbeat.  I should have anyway.  After the inning, I asked very stearnly "did you shake FB?".  We both knew he did and he knew very well it was a big mistake and he did it for selfish reasons.   He definitely got the message.  He'll be a better pitcher going forward.  That one shake was the only one of many during the season I had a big issue with.  Others were still teaching moments and were discussed often.  Others were probably fine.

Another thing that comes to mind about your comment... "it's almost like the most knowledgeable coaches in youth baseball don't want to share their knowledge with an 11u kid, or a 13u kid because they don't want to take the time to explain it.  These kids aren't learning the game, they are learning to follow orders.  of the kids not learning the game, just to follow orders."  

I don't think people take practice time into full consideration sometimes.  Most coaches I know are coaching because they love the game and do love teaching it.  Most of this occurs during practices.  During games, some coach styles are such that they still teach some while others just let the players play.  there is merit to both.  But to observers, the latter can look like they don't teach the game when this is not true at all.  

The usual disclaimer applies.. there are good ones and bad ones with everything.

 

cabbagedad posted:

Caco3girl,

You may be right and that coach, and certainly most coaches including myself, could always do a better job explaining things.  You know me, I like to offer other possibilities with a given scenario.  

We do call pitches most of the time (as you know, HS V).  We do so with purpose.  It may be sequencing, something we see in a hitter, etc., as has been discussed in some depth here recently.  Yes, we want regular communication with P,C and coach calling.  Yes, we want P to throw what is comfortable and what is working for him that day.  Yes we want him to feel liberty to shake in the right situation.  Yes, some P's need to just throw what is called.  Yes, some coaches need to loosen the reigns and/or be more aware of what the P is comfortable throwing on a given day.  All this said, there are some situations where a P is making a big mistake shaking off a call and the best way for the coach to convey a learning moment is the instant pull.  As much as we discuss things and work through the learning curve, it doesn't happen over night and once in a while, a jolt pushes the process forward.  

In one of our last games this year, we had a P shake off my P coach call in a pivotal situation.  We are usually OK with shakes if there is a reason.  It resulted exactly as feared.  If I had another P ready, I would have yanked in a heartbeat.  I should have anyway.  After the inning, I asked very stearnly "did you shake FB?".  We both knew he did and he knew very well it was a big mistake and he did it for selfish reasons.   He definitely got the message.  He'll be a better pitcher going forward.  That one shake was the only one of many during the season I had a big issue with.  Others were still teaching moments and were discussed often.  Others were probably fine.

Another thing that comes to mind about your comment... "it's almost like the most knowledgeable coaches in youth baseball don't want to share their knowledge with an 11u kid, or a 13u kid because they don't want to take the time to explain it.  These kids aren't learning the game, they are learning to follow orders.  of the kids not learning the game, just to follow orders."  

I don't think people take practice time into full consideration sometimes.  Most coaches I know are coaching because they love the game and do love teaching it.  Most of this occurs during practices.  During games, some coach styles are such that they still teach some while others just let the players play.  there is merit to both.  But to observers, the latter can look like they don't teach the game when this is not true at all.  

The usual disclaimer applies.. there are good ones and bad ones with everything.

 

Cabbage, there are good ones and bad ones and sadly I don't know enough to judge who is who.  I can say that multiple times over the year with MY son he has misinterpreted/misheard a coach and because an explanation was not given it wound up hurting him.  The most blatant that comes to mind was when the coach explained to the 12u team not to swing at curves or change up's, wait for the fast ball.  All of a sudden my kid, who had struck out 5 times the previous YEAR had 2 strike outs in one game against a pitcher that wasn't very special.  When I asked him about it he told me what the coach had said.  I asked him to double check with the coach.  He did and came back with "Yup, that's what he said", having enough of the insanity I talked to the coach WITH my son, it turned out he said don't swing at curves or change up's while you are ahead in the count."  No idea if this is valid advice but at least my kid was no longer standing up there like a statue.  At the time I am not certain my kid even knew what "ahead in the count" meant....and that could have been part of the problem.

Yup, Caco, perfect example.  

Looking fastball early in the count and when ahead (therefore don't swing at curve and change) is a good approach used across all levels.  So the coach is teaching a sound baseball approach.  He explained it to the team and one (or more) player didn't fully understand or properly interpret so was unable to execute properly.  

So, at some point, the perception of the parent was insanity on the coach's part.  In reality, it was sound teaching.  Sometimes it takes a while for either of the three (coach/player/parent) to recognize that the group message didn't come across clearly enough to some of the individuals.  So the coach may have only scored a 90% on conveying a hitting approach to the team but this is far from the earlier perceived insanity status.

BTW, Caco, I still question my son's interpretation of the words and directives of his coaches and he is a fourth year college player   I hope you experience better progress.

I was having a conversation with a little league coach and he told me they call the pitches and the location!!!!!!!  Are you kidding me. Location?????

Will posted:

I was having a conversation with a little league coach and he told me they call the pitches and the location!!!!!!!  Are you kidding me. Location?????

Yup, high, low, inside, outside is also called with pitch.