High School Pitching Velocity

Texan and TR,

Add together what you’re saying, and I think you pretty much have what most of us “older” folks are saying. Although we realize that there’s value in being able to throw the ball hard, we don’t worship it because we know how fickle a God it can be.

As many times as I’ve talked about and thought about this stuff, I have to say I’ve come to a small revelation. Please feel free to either agree or disagree.

As I’ve said before, the main reason I think people like those numbers on the guns is, its really the only objective way of measuring a P that I know of.

However, there are plenty of other ways to measure, but most of them are statistics, and aren’t always reliable because they aren’t always valid. But even if they were, there would be some people who would be glad to use them, but nowhere near a majority. Why is that?

I believe its because in order to truly use stats to analyze pitchers, it takes a lot of time, and a lot of work! To the best of my knowledge, there’s no single stat that can put players in order the way velocities can. The reason is, because of our individual philosophies, we all put different weight on different stats.

You like K’s per BB. Someone else likes WHIP. Another person likes W/L. Another likes ERA. Still another likes strike percentage. Someone else likes opponent BA. Another likes 1st pitch strike percentage. Another likes …. All that is just much more complicated than reading the gun numbers, and being basically lazy, that’s what most folks like.

It’s a shame more people can’t or won’t take the time to look at stats and use them to analyze what’s going on.

Here is a stat. One kid throws 92 and wins. Another throws 82 and wins. Guess who I want on my team?

scorekeeper


I do not think there is anyone "older" on this site than yours truly---a happy 65 years young tomorrow the 29th

I personaly still blieve that there is way to much pressure put on kids to throw harder rather than being able to use deception and throw hitters timing off. I've noticed from my personal experiences that even if I am the on that can get the hitters out my coaches will choose the guy who can throw harder but also may get hit harder. I am a senior and I know that I dont throw hard, only about 75 give or take some, but I am left handed and I just have a way of getting hitters out but still get put behind others. I think the game would be more interesting if coaches would look at how a pitcher throws not how hard he throws.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
scorekeeper

I do not think there is anyone "older" on this site than yours truly---a happy 65 years young tomorrow the 29th

Well, I bow to your seniority. I won’t be 60 until March.

DPHSbasbllplyer,

I’m sorry to say you are now acutely aware of one of the great injustices of baseball. Unfortunately baseball isn’t any more fair than the rest of life.

There are a heck of a lot of coaches like Coach May out there, and I’m not saying they’re wrong, but I am saying that for me, there’s a heck of a lot more to consider.

His assumption implies that somehow the harder throwing guy is more valuable simply because of his greater velocity. Mebbe he is, but then again, mebbe he ain’t. ;-)

quote:

You like K’s per BB. Someone else likes WHIP. Another person likes W/L. Another likes ERA. Still another likes strike percentage. Someone else likes opponent BA. Another likes 1st pitch strike percentage. Another likes …. All that is just much more complicated than reading the gun numbers, and being basically lazy, that’s what most folks like.

It’s a shame more people can’t or won’t take the time to look at stats and use them to analyze what’s going on.

Scorekeeper, I swear I’m not trying to pick you out of the crowd. It’s just that you are very good at stating things that are open for debate.

Are you serious about using stats? Hell, there are professional pitchers who tear up A ball and can’t get anyone out in AA. Should the stats from both levels be weighed equally? Should the pitcher in A ball who has much better statistics than the pitcher in AA be named the better pitcher!

People need to figure out that the millions of dollars spent by who we have to assume are the true experts in baseball (Those running MLB Organizations) has to mean something. Do we really think we are far more superior and knowledgable than those people? They actually do have a reason for what they do. They don’t just provide those guns to their scouts so they can be lazy and get it all wrong! Are we to assume the scouts just read the gun and don’t bother with the rest of the stuff? Are you saying they should work much harder by following the local statistics. Wouldn’t that be the laziest way of all to actually evaluate a pitcher. Wouldn’t even have to leave the house!

So that you know, I’m not totally against statistics and I think some statistics can reveal interesting information. I actually like to see K-BB figures, for example. But for the most part, stats are meaningless to a scout until he can determine the stats belonging to one player, are at the same level as another player. Then those stats wouldn’t mean much when compared to a player competing at a different level of competition. The only place where stats might play a part is when the stats pretty much stink! If we think a player is a good prospect and his stats in high school are terrible… this can be alarming. When you see the top pitchers in the country getting drafted in the early rounds, it’s not just the gun reading alone. They also absolutely dominate at the high school level.

I’m pretty sure you just enjoy the debate, so I’ll stop here.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Are we to assume the scouts just read the gun and don’t bother with the rest of the stuff?

PG, most of the time I'm on the same page with you. But I've got to relate a story that I have seen numerous times.

Scouts are sitting around talking before the game. You hear them say things like: Pitchers have to have mental toughness, they need to throw strikes and have command, they need to have three quality pitches, all the heat in the world is no good if you can't find the plate, etc., etc., etc.

Game starts. Pitcher on the mound is throwing serious heat. Throwing some in the dirt, some over the back stop, some in the batters' ribs and some so far the catcher could't get a glove on it with a ten foot pole. The blue is back there digging a foxhole! The pitcher is getting visibly ticked and starts melting down after he walks his second run of the inning across the plate.

Kind of funny what has happened among the scouts, though. They are salivating all over their guns. All those wise things we heard before the game are gone with the wind. Now what you hear is "You can't teach speed!", "Geezzzz, that last one was 94!!", "Man alive this kid can really bring it!". Not a word mentioned about all those "other characteristics" that are missing in this pitcher.

I have seen that scenario play out on more than a few occasions.

Scouts are human beings. And they fall prey to fads just as surely as corporate CEO's fall for TQM, TPM, Kaizen, Kanban, Six Sigma, BPI and all those other management fads that come and go every five years. You know, each of those fads has some items of merit. But none of them is a sole panacea. Each has some shortcomings. And most of them have been abused to the detriment of the company.

And IMHO, radar readings are the current fad for scouts. Is there some merit? Sure. But it is not a sole panacea.

And the gun does make it a little easier for the scout to get off the hook when someone doesn't work out. [And for crying out loud, there will always been plenty that don't work out. The best scout in the world cannot be expected to be perfect, as some seem to expect them to be. --Not saying at all that you do, PG.] The scout can say, "Dang, but he could sure heave that thing in there. He was lighting the gun up in the mid 90's. Just couldn't quite get that control down. But boy, he could really chunk it..."

quote:

Scouts are sitting around talking before the game. You hear them say things like: Pitchers have to have mental toughness, they need to throw strikes and have command, they need to have three quality pitches, all the heat in the world is no good if you can't find the plate, etc., etc., etc.

Game starts. Pitcher on the mound is throwing serious heat. Throwing some in the dirt, some over the back stop, some in the batters' ribs and some so far the catcher could't get a glove on it with a ten foot pole. The blue is back there digging a foxhole! The pitcher is getting visibly ticked and starts melting down after he walks his second run of the inning across the plate.

Kind of funny what has happened among the scouts, though. They are salivating all over their guns. All those wise things we heard before the game are gone with the wind. Now what you hear is "You can't teach speed!", "Geezzzz, that last one was 94!!", "Man alive this kid can really bring it!". Not a word mentioned about all those "other characteristics" that are missing in this pitcher.

Texan,
You can bet the farm that those scouts wrote what they saw on the report they turned in. The mid 90s is a big deal, but by itself it doesn't make for much of a report. I guarantee you that everyone one of those scouts, scouting director wants to know as much as possible about any mid 90s high school pitcher. Command would be extremely high on the list of what they would want to know. There is no way to avoid that!

Scouting departments have to have something to compare one mid 90s pitcher to the next one. They are not all equal. If someone told me a pitcher throws 95, I would be interested in knowing a lot more about him. That would include many of those things you heard those scouts talking about before the game. But mid 90s, all by itself, will create interest!

What scouts might say in public doesn't neccessarily jell with what they report. If a kid is pitching there's a good chance his parents are setting somewhere close to where the scouts are using the gun. That might be the reason they said what they did, he is mid 90s, can't ignore that, no need to cut him down in front of others.

Texan

Sometimes the more people talk the more they show how little they know

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:Scorekeeper, I swear I’m not trying to pick you out of the crowd. It’s just that you are very good at stating things that are open for debate.

Good. Isn’t it kind of worthless to only say things everyone else agrees with?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:Are you serious about using stats? Hell, there are professional pitchers who tear up A ball and can’t get anyone out in AA. Should the stats from both levels be weighed equally? Should the pitcher in A ball who has much better statistics than the pitcher in AA be named the better pitcher!

Whoa big fella! You’ve done it again! You’re talking about pros, and I’m thinkin’ ‘bout Youth and HS ball.

Now if you want to get into a discussion about stats and their worth, I’ll gladly do that, but this definitely isn’t the place.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:People need to figure out that the millions of dollars spent by who we have to assume are the true experts in baseball (Those running MLB Organizations) has to mean something. Do we really think we are far more superior and knowledgable than those people? They actually do have a reason for what they do. They don’t just provide those guns to their scouts so they can be lazy and get it all wrong! Are we to assume the scouts just read the gun and don’t bother with the rest of the stuff? Are you saying they should work much harder by following the local statistics. Wouldn’t that be the laziest way of all to actually evaluate a pitcher. Wouldn’t even have to leave the house!

Again, you’re making a mountain out of a molehill. I didn’t say jack about how MLB organizations work, and don’t make myself out to be one who knows. I don’t work for them, as obviously you do.

All I was trying to point out was that it isn’t easy using stats to evaluate anything, and because of that, it isn’t done very much, at the levels I was thinking about. Youth and HS!

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:So that you know, I’m not totally against statistics and I think some statistics can reveal interesting information. I actually like to see K-BB figures, for example. But for the most part, stats are meaningless to a scout until he can determine the stats belonging to one player, are at the same level as another player. Then those stats wouldn’t mean much when compared to a player competing at a different level of competition. The only place where stats might play a part is when the stats pretty much stink! If we think a player is a good prospect and his stats in high school are terrible… this can be alarming. When you see the top pitchers in the country getting drafted in the early rounds, it’s not just the gun reading alone. They also absolutely dominate at the high school level.

Once again, you’re thinking ML scouts, something that didn’t even enter my mind!

If you knew more about me, you would know that I’ve spent a considerable amount of time trying desperately to make people understand that the reason stats aren’t reliable at the lower levels is because the numbers stink! The reason the numbers stink is because its rare that anyone gives a flip about how the score is kept. All a lot of people want to is, who won!

Luckily, through a lot of hard work, I’ve managed to gain something of a reputation locally, for someone who not only keeps score pretty darn well, but provides valid statistics. And if anyone looks at the stats I keep on team I score for, they can tell right away that they aren’t normal!

If, and that’s understanding its impossible, every HS and college team had an SK who worked as hard as I have, it would be a lot easier for every evaluator to do their job. It isn’t my fault proper books aren’t kept! I think the Sabermetrics folks have pretty well proved the numbers can be used, even without seeing the players. Math doesn’t lie, unless the beginning numbers aren’t valid.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:I’m pretty sure you just enjoy the debate, so I’ll stop here.

Now that’s the first thing you’ve said I find the least bit insulting.

You made a faulty assumption about who I was talking about, then do a dissertation berating me for saying things I never said, then say I’m the one who simply enjoys the debate.

Fortunately, things like that don’t often bother me for more than a few seconds, because this stuff isn’t life of death to me. I don’t see it as a win or lose life or death situation.

94 on the gun is the same in Vermont, Rhode Island, Florida, Texas and California.

K/BB ratios, WHIP, ERA, etc can not translate from, say, Vermont to Florida and provide any type of comparison for the purpose of evaluating talent. A no hitter with 15 K's is not the same at a small school as it is at a Gulliver Prep, Pace, Hialiah, etc.

Other stats can be meaningless at lower levels because of poor discipline by hitters, poor umping, poor defense affecting pitch counts which in turn affects performance later in game, pitchers overused and also playing other positions, etc.

That being said, I see the difference in a scouts thinking in comparing the 94 mph kid with control problems vs the command pitcher at 76 mph:

Which one can I make more effective quicker.

Can I teach the 94 mph enough command to be effective?

Or, can I develop the kid with good command to get fast enough to be effective against better hitting, because even with his command and current velocity, good hitting is going to have plenty of time to recognize and rip.

In a perfect world, a kid has velocity and command. It is not a perfect world for enough kids. So, which one can more quickly have a blend of both to be effective.

PG, I hear what you are saying. And it obviously makes sense. It is just that it doesn't match what I see play out at times.

But I'm just an ignorant observer.

SK, PG is one of the good guys. I have never seen him intentionally insult anyone.

He offers a great perspective and good knowledge to the board.

Take a deep breath and let those few seconds pass...

PoteetHsbbfan, thanks for posting the question. I've enjoyed the input, you're up to 93 responses so hopefully your question was answered.

This is what I posted. One kid throws 92 and gets kids out the other throws 82 and gets kids out. Guess who I want on my team? Now to say "Im sure there are alot of coaches out there like Coach May" -- Yes a whole lot of them. Are you suggesting that kids should not work to throw hard? Are you suggesting that if you throw hard you can not have command? Here is a fact. Throwing hard and being able to pitch is more valuable than not throwing hard and being able to pitch. You tell me how it is not. I dont care how good your command is and how mentally tough you are if you do not have some velocity to go along with it you are not going to be as effective as the kid that has the same pitching attributes but does have velocity. Scouts want to see a certain range of velocity. Scouts want to see the ability to have command of your pitches. The fact is the more velocity you have the less concerned they are with the ability to have command of your stuff. Why? If you can teach a kid to throw 94 then start your business today and I would like a job because we are going to be rich! You can go to just about any HS game and find a kid that is in the upper 70's low 80's that can locate and pitch. How many of those games can you go to and see a kid throw 90's with the same ability? I wonder why this kid is considered more valuable?

Excellent post Coach May.



PGStaff...you have a PM.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
This is what I posted. One kid throws 92 and gets kids out the other throws 82 and gets kids out. Guess who I want on my team? Now to say "Im sure there are alot of coaches out there like Coach May" -- Yes a whole lot of them.

Like so may other people who take what’s said on these boards personally, you responded with a quote of mine, taken completely out of text!

Let’s post the whole quote.

I’m sorry to say you are now acutely aware of one of the great injustices of baseball. Unfortunately baseball isn’t any more fair than the rest of life.

There are a heck of a lot of coaches like Coach May out there, and I’m not saying they’re wrong, but I am saying that for me, there’s a heck of a lot more to consider.

His assumption implies that somehow the harder throwing guy is more valuable simply because of his greater velocity. Mebbe he is, but then again, mebbe he ain’t. ;-)

You got your panties in a bunch because of what? Because I said there were a heck of a lot of coaches like you? Because I didn’t say you were wrong? Because I said I didn’t agree with you? Or maybe because I said you IMPLIED something you didn’t intend?

You see now what the trouble is when you try to make short posts assuming everyone who reads them will understand perfectly what you mean.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:Are you suggesting that kids should not work to throw hard? Are you suggesting that if you throw hard you can not have command?

I am suggesting no such thing other than that I believe there is more that should be considered than pure velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:Here is a fact. Throwing hard and being able to pitch is more valuable than not throwing hard and being able to pitch. You tell me how it is not.

You didn’t say one word about being able to pitch, skills, or anything else. All you said was there were 2 kids who could get people out. C’mon now coach, are you gonna say you’ve never come across a P who literally stunk on ice in your opinion, but he could get people out?

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:I dont care how good your command is and how mentally tough you are if you do not have some velocity to go along with it you are not going to be as effective as the kid that has the same pitching attributes but does have velocity.

And? Please show me where I said anything that would dispute that. Remember, I’m not the one who put down the scenario.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:Scouts want to see a certain range of velocity. Scouts want to see the ability to have command of your pitches. The fact is the more velocity you have the less concerned they are with the ability to have command of your stuff.

And? Please show me where I said anything that would dispute that.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:Why? If you can teach a kid to throw 94 then start your business today and I would like a job because we are going to be rich! You can go to just about any HS game and find a kid that is in the upper 70's low 80's that can locate and pitch. How many of those games can you go to and see a kid throw 90's with the same ability? I wonder why this kid is considered more valuable?

You’ve convinced yourself that your scenario of 2 pitchers each being able to get people out means they both have equal abilities other than the velocity. I don’t see that as true and it makes you angry. Why?

All you had to do was say in your scenario that other than one having a velocity 10MPH more than the other, they were both equal, and I wouldn’t have commented on the post.

But nooooo! You want to try to make me out to be an a** because you took a shortcut and I took it literally.

I’m sorry that you and I got off to such a terrible beginning, but what can I say. I guess I’ll just keep readin’ what you write and you keep readin’ what you think you wrote. Then you can get angry with me and make some posts trying to make me look foolish.

S’ok. The only thing I can say is, I’m not some HS aged ball player or some parent frightened to say that what you’re sprayin’ in their face ain’t lemonade because they don’t want to endanger their kid’s chances of playing.

We should never confuse MPH with pitching ability.

That being said, it is a fact that no pitcher will be sharp every time out there.

A 90+ guy is more likely to fare well on those days when he isn't as sharp as usual, for the simple reason that he can have reasonable success just throwing it in there. The 75-80 guy cannot last long doing that. In fact, I would say you'd better be throwing above 85 to have any hope of getting away with it. HS hitters are just too good these days!

I thought all the scorekeepers in Sacramento were the Mom's of the starting pitcher or the SS?

Say hi to Rinaldi for me. He is a good guy and a fine coach.

Scorekeep, may I suggest you argue in front of a mirror, it may be therapeutic. And more efficient.
Good gosh man, have a six-pack and watch some television.

I received an alert about this thread, and I just wanted to check in and say I hope you guys are enjoying some good-natured banter back and forth, not gettin' all upset at each other. (Scorekeeper, in case you are wondering why in the world some mom is sticking her nose in, I am the main moderator/administrator.)

I know a few of the posts here have been a little blunt, but truly it looks to me like all the participants in this thread can have a good time discussing the topic if no one gets too personal. (I enjoy reading the velocity discussions even though my son is past HS!) I'll assume you guys are working things out unless you send me another alert.

Julie

Can I go on record as Not being the one to send the alert! Hate to be called a tattle tale!

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
Here is a stat. One kid throws 92 and wins. Another throws 82 and wins. Guess who I want on my team?

Who I want greatly depends upon how they got the win. One game doesn't make a season.

As I mentioned earlier, it is a tool vs skill assessment. A top level player has a balance of both. I don't think anyone suggested pitchers are evaluated only on velocity. There are acceptable ranges to be within to be effective. If a player shows ability at one, but not the other, an assessment needs to be made as to liklihood of being a more balanced player.

The ability for the tool guy to develop skill may depend on his ability to make changes, which is a mental part of the game.

The ability for the skill guy to develop tools may depend on his ability to make physical changes.

There have been success stories on both sides, and there have been failures on both sides to bolster arguments.

But, I'm guessing a scout is more confident in his own ability (or that of his organization) to take the tool guy and develop his skills more easeily than the other way around.

Getting back to the Scorekeeper comment about basing his argument on Sabermetrics (while saying he is only discussing the youth game, where Sabermetrics are pretty much useless) is an indcation he is just looking to keep the argument alive. I think he likes the attention, and to show himself how good a scorekeeper he is. Congratulations, you're a great scorekeeper, and congratulations for being recognized as that. But, that hardly justifies your to coming here to argue with anyone and everyone for the sole purpose of letting everyone see that.

But the stats at youth level are so inconclusive that they cannot be used to measure talent level for comparison purposes. I refer back to undisciplined hitters affecting everything from K ratios to 1st pitch strike ratios. You can destroy every stat at the youth level because of components which affect the game that just do not happen at a higher level. How about pitch counts and the need for a pitcher to get 5 outs per inning and the affect that that has on his effectiveness as the game and season go on? That does not even begin to address the level at which the game and/or opponent is playing.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
We should never confuse MPH with pitching ability.

That being said, it is a fact that no pitcher will be sharp every time out there.

A 90+ guy is more likely to fare well on those days when he isn't as sharp as usual, for the simple reason that he can have reasonable success just throwing it in there. The 75-80 guy cannot last long doing that. In fact, I would say you'd better be throwing above 85 to have any hope of getting away with it. HS hitters are just too good these days!

I want to say I agree with you 100%, and I would if you just didn’t imply that all HS hitters have the ability to chew up and spit out every 75-80 P, even if they’re just layin’ the ball in there.

Even if you take the state champion of any state you might choose, chances are, there’s gonna be a few kids in the lineup who aren’t gonna be what anyone would call much better than average hitters, if that.

But other than that, what you said makes very good sense to me.

I think a lot of us would agree that a typical high school team with three or four GOOD ball players are contenders and one with five or six will be State Champs, or close to it.

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
I thought all the scorekeepers in Sacramento were the Mom's of the starting pitcher or the SS?

Evidently you’ve looked at the HS stats of players from this area!

Maybe this will tell you how I try to keep score.

In the 100+ HS games I scored for my son’s HS team, of the batters who had more than 25 ABs I scored, there were only 6 players in 3 years who batted cumulatively over .300. The highest was .379, and he got a ride to UC Davis.

Our team cumulative BA for 3,054 ABs was .281. Our opponents had a cumulative average of .271. But if we throw out the numbers for the team we played that only won 1 game at any level in 4 years, our cumulative BA would drop to .271 and our opponents average would go up to .275.

To me, at least that’s being pretty even handed, and boy did I take a lot of heat from our parents about that!

quote:

Originally posted by bbscout:
Say hi to Rinaldi for me. He is a good guy and a fine coach.

Will definitely do!

You’re right, he is definitely a cut above most of the coaches in the area. I’m really looking forward to seeing what the kids’ll do this year. Its their 1st year of V ball, and he’s had them since they were frosh.

I think they might be able to pull off a .500 year. I suspect he’d be disappointed with that, but considering the league they’ll be playing in, I’d consider it a great start.

Were you around here when Franklin first got going? My son was a Jr the 1st time we played them, and I told people they were gonna be a serious contender within just a few years. I got to tell a lot of folks I told ya so last year! ;-)

If you have the occasion to do one of PG’s games, please stop by and say hi!

Say, you aren’t the guy Red Adams is always telling me about are you?

Scorekeeper you did not make me angry. I respect everyones opinion. I dont get angry very often. I get angry when kids dont hustle or disrespect the game. But that is not very often.

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:Getting back to the Scorekeeper comment about basing his argument on Sabermetrics (while saying he is only discussing the youth game, where Sabermetrics are pretty much useless) is an indcation he is just looking to keep the argument alive. I think he likes the attention, and to show himself how good a scorekeeper he is. Congratulations, you're a great scorekeeper, and congratulations for being recognized as that. But, that hardly justifies your to coming here to argue with anyone and everyone for the sole purpose of letting everyone see that.

If you can find where I was saying I was only discussing the youth game, I’d appreciate you pointing it out. I’m pretty sure I was saying I wasn’t only thinking of the high level game.

The Sabermetric argument was only intended to show that good numbers can be used as very good predictors.

What I like to do is stick my finger in the eye of someone who tries to say numbers won’t work, just because. They will work for a lot of things, and can easily be used to refute the dogmatic views of hardheads who think they’re perceptions are infallible.

Is it a crime that I’m proud I do a good job? Do you climb on everyone else’s back who trots out their resume trying to make a point?

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:But the stats at youth level are so inconclusive that they cannot be used to measure talent level for comparison purposes. I refer back to undisciplined hitters affecting everything from K ratios to 1st pitch strike ratios. You can destroy every stat at the youth level because of components which affect the game that just do not happen at a higher level. How about pitch counts and the need for a pitcher to get 5 outs per inning and the affect that that has on his effectiveness as the game and season go on? That does not even begin to address the level at which the game and/or opponent is playing.

You’re right, but you didn’t go quite far enough. It isn’t just the stats at the youth level, 13U that are inconclusive, it’s the same thing for the HS and to a large degree the college level too!

Anytime you see the book the stats will come from being kept in a dugout, you can pretty much bet the house the numbers will be invalid, of for no other reason than the scoring isn’t done IAW the rule set the game is being played under.

Is it my fault too that no one feels its necessary to teach players the rules, let alone those being asked to keep score?

You’re pretty much taking the same high and mighty position most other people do. Shoot the messenger!

Guys like you abound in the bleachers of every park in the world. The ump makes a call you don’t agree with and they stink, don’t know the rules, or are out of position. The same thing happens with SKs. They’ll score an error on a ball your kid hit, or won’t score an error on a ball hit off your kid, and they suck and they don’t know what they’re talking about!

Well, get your butt out there and become the umpire everyone thinks never misses a call, or show up for every game to keep score so the numbers will be consistent. If you do either, everyone and the game will be much better for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach May:
Scorekeeper you did not make me angry. I respect everyones opinion. I dont get angry very often. I get angry when kids dont hustle or disrespect the game. But that is not very often.

If that’s true, You have my sincere apology for misinterpreting what I read.

I’m taking a pretty good but whompin’ around here, and most of its because the folks on this board aren’t used to the way I write. And since I’m certainly not used to the way they do ether, its causing a lot of finger pointing because of simple misinterpretations.

I know that will eventually go away, and in the mean time I have no problem at all with apologizing for erroneous conceptions. I’m just getting a little bit rubbed raw when no one else will try to meet me half way.

Scorekeeper continue to post and speak your mind. If everyone agreed with oneanother here it would be too boring for me. I respect everyones opinion and I learn from everyone here. I do not always agree with my fellow posters and they do not always agree with me. I have been blasted before and Im sure I will again. What makes this site so special is we all love baseball and we all care enough to be here. Please continue to be a part of our baseball community and believe me when I say it is never personal with me. We all have opinions and they are all valuable.

SK quote:
"If you can find where I was saying I was only discussing the youth game, I’d appreciate you pointing it out. I’m pretty sure I was saying I wasn’t only thinking of the high level game."

Well, let me help you out pal:

SK quote:
"All I was trying to point out was that it isn’t easy using stats to evaluate anything, and because of that, it isn’t done very much, at the levels I was thinking about. Youth and HS!"

I don't see you including the high level game. In fact, you say: "at the levels I was thinking about. Youth and HS!"

Looks pretty clear to me.


SK quote:
Is it my fault too that no one feels its necessary to teach players the rules, let alone those being asked to keep score?

Who's blaming you for anything?


SK quote:
You’re pretty much taking the same high and mighty position most other people do. Shoot the messenger!

Your message is that you argue for the sake of arguing. Quick to point out to to others...."...that's not what I said". Then you twist their words into something they didn't say, and try to use those words in your argument. You're quite comical.


SK quote:
Guys like you abound in the bleachers of every park in the world. The ump makes a call you don’t agree with and they stink, don’t know the rules, or are out of position. The same thing happens with SKs. They’ll score an error on a ball your kid hit, or won’t score an error on a ball hit off your kid, and they suck and they don’t know what they’re talking about!

I don't know what the heck you're talking about here (there you go twisting words, like you accuse others of doing). But, I said umping at youth level is not as good as pro level. How you twist that to mean I gripe about calls is beyond me. I never complain about calls. Never! That being said, are you saying youth umps are as good as MLB umps? Thus making the balls and strikes reliable for your great stat keeping? C'mon pal, be real. Nor do I question the scorekeeper, which for many years was me (Ahhhhh! BTW, I was quite good at it.) Or, is that just your condescending tone you use with anyone who questions the great Oz, I mean Scorekeeper.


SK quote:
Well, get your butt out there and become the umpire everyone thinks never misses a call, or show up for every game to keep score so the numbers will be consistent. If you do either, everyone and the game will be much better for it.

There you go again. You seem to have a sore spot with the ump thing.


You need to develop some of that California Cool us East Coaster's her about. You sound like a heart attack waiting to happen.

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:
Well, let me help you out pal:

SK quote:
"All I was trying to point out was that it isn’t easy using stats to evaluate anything, and because of that, it isn’t done very much, at the levels I was thinking about. Youth and HS!"

I don't see you including the high level game. In fact, you say: "at the levels I was thinking about. Youth and HS!"

Looks pretty clear to me.

First of all why don’t you quit posturing by using words and phrases intended to do nothing but cause problems. I am not your PAL!

Second, although HS ball is definitely youthful to me, I don’t see it ordinarily included in the term “youth ball”.

But if it will make you feel like a big man, I’ll be glad to admit I completely misspoke. Happy now?

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:
Who's blaming you for anything?

Evidently I thought you were blaming me for all the ills of scorekeeping the world over.

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:
Your message is that you argue for the sake of arguing. Quick to point out to to others...."...that's not what I said". Then you twist their words into something they didn't say, and try to use those words in your argument. You're quite comical.

Excuse me? You’re the one doing all the twisting and attacking for no good reason I can determine.

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:
I don't know what the heck you're talking about here (there you go twisting words, like you accuse others of doing). But, I said umping at youth level is not as good as pro level. How you twist that to mean I gripe about calls is beyond me. I never complain about calls. Never! That being said, are you saying youth umps are as good as MLB umps? Thus making the balls and strikes reliable for your great stat keeping? C'mon pal, be real. Nor do I question the scorekeeper, which for many years was me (Ahhhhh! BTW, I was quite good at it.) Or, is that just your condescending tone you use with anyone who questions the great Oz, I mean Scorekeeper.

Just for the record, you said:

Other stats can be meaningless at lower levels because of poor discipline by hitters, poor umping, poor defense affecting pitch counts which in turn affects performance later in game, pitchers overused and also playing other positions, etc.

Wouldn’t want to be accused of misquoting or twisting.

But, that statement never entered my mind. All I could think of is all the games I’ve sat there and had to listen to people who are legends in their own mind, regaling everyone near them with their great expertise and insight.

You are the only person I’ve ever heard of who has NEVER complained about an umpire’s call. I’m better than most, but even I have had my doubts out loud.

quote:

Originally posted by wayback:
There you go again. You seem to have a sore spot with the ump thing.

You need to develop some of that California Cool us East Coaster's her about. You sound like a heart attack waiting to happen.

What I have is a sore spot for those who can’t or won’t try to do better what they point out in others.

I think I’ve been pretty cool just dealing with someone like you over this stuff. Now that you’ve shown the big bad California dude who’s really the boss around here, you act like a grown up.

Congratulations! You win! Yo da man!

Scorekeeper,

I am getting the distinct impression from your public posts and your PMs to me that you might have come on the site with an agenda other than talking baseball.

Would you please take another look at the Board Manners page of our site and then send me another PM? Thanks.

Other than being a new guy on the block and taking a stand or two, I don't understand what SK had done to deserve the attacks. Sure he can come on strong at times. But no more so than quite a few others on this board (including myself).

The man has a good deal of knowledge. Yes, his posts are long. So what. If someone's attention span can't handle that, then don't read them.

This board has a way of ganging up on new posters. We need to back off that some and cut new folks a little slack.

MN-Mom,

It would appear so IMO.

Seems like every post has at least one - if not more than one - "cyber body slams" in it.

Doesnt make a difference what the topic is - just the same repetitive pattern.

I believe I see Chuck Barris - waiting in the wings. LOL

Texan,

This new "poster" - asked some personal questions - and when he got some answers - he responded like an immature child.

And that may have been his best post. LOL