How accurate are top pitchers? If pitching were archery?

FO,
grab a seat, thisd could be interesting!

Accuracy. ie location is to me the most important trait for a pitcher-- 100 MPH means nothing if it isnt in the strike zone

I think it all depends on the level of competition. At the high school level the “effectively wild” fastballer will dominate batters because of the lack of plate discipline from the opposing hitters. As the level of play increases and the opposition’s plate discipline increases, the need for control increases. If you can’t hit your spots in college, you probably won’t last long.
Fungo

Watch the pros. See where the catcher puts his mitt, and how often the pitcher is nowhere near the mitt (e.g, catcher moves the mitt a foot or more). Pretty high percentage.

Something to keep in mind when working with young pitchers. Expectations regarding command are often way too high.

What age is a young pitcher?

My "young" pitcher found the strike zone at age 17. He wisely pointed out that this was the first year he hadn't grown anywhere from 3-6 inches over the winter and finally felt like he knew his body. Its hard to find control when everything, especially his stride, changed so fast. When he quit growing, he settled down a lot.

Location without movement is useless. Movement without location is useless. Velocity pitchers can have accuracy and movement as well. All things being equal velocity, movement and location is better than no velocity with movement and location. I agree that accuracy is important, but it is less important than having movement and accuracy. A batter can hit a straight pitch any where in the strike zone. You must have movement, accuracy, and deception. If you have velocity, movement, accuracy, and deception, all the better. jmo

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
I think it all depends on the level of competition. At the high school level the “effectively wild” fastballer will dominate batters because of the lack of plate discipline from the opposing hitters. As the level of play increases and the opposition’s plate discipline increases, the need for control increases. If you can’t hit your spots in college, you probably won’t last long.
Fungo

Agree with Fungo. By the time you get to college - if you cant hit your spots consistently - you
probably wont last very long.

Walks and 90 mph meatballs in college usually spell the end.

quote:

See where the catcher puts his mitt, and how often the pitcher is nowhere near the mitt (e.g, catcher moves the mitt a foot or more). Pretty high percentage.

Of course that may have to do with movement or failed movement. But interesting point. Accurately placing trick pitches is a completely different and more complex subject.

My question is how accurate is accurate with a fastball when precision is required?
With basketball and other sports that's easy to know. Baseball is different. Just how close to the bullseye can a good pitcher usually come?

To be meaningful, I think you have to approach it a slightly different way. Define a target size first (e.g., catcher doesn't move his mitt more than X inches). Then see what percentage of the time the pitch is caught within that target size.

And giving a target size of a foot (re: my previous post) should take care of any pitch movement. Remember, the catcher knows what pitch he called and is anticipating the movement thereof.

A pitch that misses by a foot winds up in the middle of the plate or wild. The standard for top pitchers is inches. 1 or 2. Movement is important but even that has to be controllable. A fastball that moves 7 inches from the outside corner in, winds up being a meatball. KC baseball, mine had the same problem every spring, worked tirelessly on balance and mechanics. Balance being the most important. Only a fool builds a house on sand. Maddux and Glavine may have been the best I have ever seen and neither one was a fireballer. Velocity allows you to make mistakes and get away with them. Late movement allows your mistakes not to get hit quite as hard. Location allows you to work the hitter. All three make you a hall of famer.

I saw Roger Clemens put on a display a few years back. He was throwing at different X's in the strike zone and his accuracy was phenomenal. He could hit the X every time. +/- 1/2 inch. You asked to compare the fastball to the archer??? Dunno! Could the Rocket throw a 90 mph fast ball and knock an apple off his son's head like the legendary archer William Tell did with his arrow?

Just think how good pitchers will really be once somebody invents some archery sights to strap onto the pitcher's glove!

OPP

I strongly recommend that folks sit down & watch a few entire games. See where the catcher puts the mitt. Then, for those who think the average MLB pitcher can "hit his spot" all the time, see who often the catcher doesn't move his mitt more than a few inches. I think folks will find it is a much lower percentage than they believe.

And a significant amount of time in the playoffs this year I saw catchers set up outside only to catch the pitch inside, or vice versa. And that is a difference of a foot.

Rather than argue, watch a few games and keep a written count.

An acquaintance of mine has won more than a few bets off this.

Almost ALL pitchers dont even hit there spot.They just throw it in the area.Even major league pitchers dont have pin point accuracy

quote:

Originally posted by smokky1:
Almost ALL pitchers dont even hit there spot.They just throw it in the area.Even major league pitchers dont have pin point accuracy

It can vary with a pitcher from day-to-day. I've seen days where guys where the mitt will barely move an inch for an entire game. Same pitcher on a different day and he's all over the place. It happens.

Define the ability to throw strikes as control versus the ability to hit your spots as command. It does exist, but will also vary between pitches. You can have command over a FB, but just decent control of a changeup. To the casual observer, it looks like you are missing your spot, but the pitch is different and the change is based on deception and movement.

If you don't believe command exists, break out some tapes of Maddox throughout the 90's and look at his 12 flavors of fastballs.

quote:

I saw Roger Clemens put on a display. He could hit the X every time. +/- 1/2 inch.

This was the sort of info I was looking for. I wouldn't expect even Clemons to do as well in a real game with runners on base, distractions all around and after several tiring innings.

Point is that some top pitchers achieve laser-like control.

Next question: Is it worthwhile for a kid to spend time developing pin-point control...not just hitting corners but coming within an inch of the target?

We see a lot of bragging about "I can hit 90" but never "I can hit a housefly if I want."

Instead of vaguely aiming for the down/away corner, should a HS/college pitcher be encouraged to aim for a spot one inch inside or outside of that spot, for example?

From a professional prospect point of view, VELOCITY is the only thing that matters, otherwise you would see a bunch of 80 mph + high school pitchers getting drafted.

They can coach/refine your delivery/mechanics.

If you don't have velocity, however, you don't have it.

Throw as hard as you can for as long as you can...simple as that.

micdsguy,
Never thought about it before but back when I was an avid archer we always were taught to aim at a very small spot. The smaller the better. From a archery website:

quote:

Make yourself a note here that you`re not just looking at the target in general, you`re looking at the small spot you intend to hit. You lock onto it and see nothing else in your primary vision.

Could it be that the same applies in pitching? Not sure but it does make sense.
Fungo

The first part of your statement is true. Many scouts are incredibly focused on speed above all else. I have been around scouts who talk about the need for a true prospect to have movement, mental toughness, command, etc. Yet when a kid gets on the mound throwing 90+, they start making all sorts of favorable comments even though the kid walks three out of four batters.

What should a kid do at the showcase with the gun on him? Throw as hard as he can. Because most scouts will forgive the lack of command if the velocity is high enough.

But as to the ability to "coach/refine your delivery/mechanics", I must disagree. If that were the case, then the MLB's would only have pitchers throwing 95+ mph. There are plenty of 95+ mph "prospects" to fill the majors. If velocity is so important and if coaching/refining was straightforward, why use a pitcher throwing less than 95 mph?

If things like command, movement, mental toughness were easily taught, then all these young 95+ mph'ers would be on the mound in the MLB parks.

The fact is these other things are not at all easily taught, despite the assertions of some (not all) scouts. That is why you can go to some MLB games and see neither starter break 90 mph. And why so many other MLB starters don't get much past 90 mph.

quote:

Originally posted by Fungo:
micdsguy,
Never thought about it before but back when I was an avid archer we always were taught to aim at a very small spot. The smaller the better. From a archery website:

quote:

Make yourself a note here that you`re not just looking at the target in general, you`re looking at the small spot you intend to hit. You lock onto it and see nothing else in your primary vision.

Could it be that the same applies in pitching? Not sure but it does make sense.
Fungo

It does, and not just to pitchers .... If you want to prove it to yourself, perform the following experiment with a group of 4-6 year olds just learning how to throw a baseball.

Take a 4x8 sheet of plywood, stand the kids a decent distance away from the plywood. Now, tell them to hit the board. Some will, many won't. Now, take a playing card and tack it to the same sheet of plywood. Though none of the kids will probably hit the playing card, virtually every kid will hit the plywood since they are "aiming small".

Good "little kids" baseball training technique.

HHH,

Without knowing what we were doing, we did the "plywood" drill- only with a cement wall and a spray-can painted circle(about 6-8" diameter) when my son was around 8 years old. He developed pretty good control from that point forward and also became exceptional at fielding his position on the rebound off of the wall.

Concerning all of those pro pitchers who seem to "miss" the glove by a rather large distance- often the glove is what the pitcher focuses on to be throwing AT and the catcher has to then move the glove based on where the ball will move once the pitcher has released. This may vary from pitcher/catcher and organization to organization, but it is one reason that many pitches seem to "miss the spot"..... Of course often they do just miss!

Also, pitchers ARE focusing at a smaller area than just the glove, thus the contrasting colored pockets used on many catcher's gloves.

Of course... I still don't know what I am doing concerning pitching, but son is starting to get a small grasp.

OPP

Interesting stuff...all.

9-year old pitchers are thought to be gods if they can throw it somewhere down the middle 70% of the time. Not many coaches would tell that kid he needs to aim for the corners. Or two inches outside when facing a formidable opponent. Name another sport where you first learn to do it 100% wrong?

Enough talk: Anyone know where to buy a set of those circus throwing knives (preferably 5-ouncers)? I'm on a mission!

Maddox?

quote:

Originally posted by micdsguy:
Enough talk: Anyone know where to buy a set of those circus throwing knives (preferably 5-ouncers)? I'm on a mission!

http://www.martialartsgear.com/Knives/Ornamental_Throwi...hrowing_Knives.shtml

(sorry, I couldn't resist .... )

quote:

Originally posted by micdsguy:
Enough talk: Anyone know where to buy a set of those circus throwing knives (preferably 5-ouncers)? I'm on a mission!

I'm not catching that bullpen.

Almost wet my pants reading that throwing knife link above: Does a 70 mph control specialist have a future after HS ball? Carnivals and fairs are hiring!!!

"Throwing Knives

Throwing knives are used in a manner similar to darts. For anyone who has ever been to the circus or been to a fair, you have probably seen throwing knives in action. Knife throwing is a DEVELOPED talent. We recommend that if you are unknowledgeable in this department, that you do not take knife throwing lightly. Find out any information you can on knife throwing from books, the internet, rifle clubs, etc.

Knife Throwing Safety

While circus performers make knife throwing look like a breeze. ..literally and figuratively... nothing could be further from the truth. Professional knife throwers have worked long and hard honing their skills and talent. Yes, knife throwing is a skill! Expecting to be an expert overnight is unrealistic for someone who has never practiced knife throwing before. Make sure you know what you are doing. As we have already mentioned research, research, research!"


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Believe it or not, we know EXACTLY how many spots were hit last year. We stopped paper charting everything and went to a program called Pitcher's Edge. We chart on a palm pilot and can run a Pitcher Command report.

See if you find this interesting...

19% of our pitches were Hit Spots (catcher didn't move the glove): Out of those, only 2% were put in play hard.

27% of pitches were Slight Misses (not dead on the spot, but close): Of those, 8% were hit hard.

54% of pitches were Major Misses (didn't come close to intended spot) Of those, 17% were put in play hard (if they were swung on).

I agree with Texan that in general, the reality of command is that very often we succeed without hitting our spots. 19% may sound terrible, but our opponents hit their spot 15%, and slight missed 20%.

I learned a lot from this charting experiment and we continue to use the program in bullpens, intrasquads, and games. Our pitchers constantly try to improve their numbers. Pretty cool stuff!

coach_22 - REAL DATA rather than assumptions! That's great, & very interesting.

Even allowing for curves & such that have more movement and thus could skew the data some, your data skewers the argument that pitchers can "hit their spots all the time".

And certainly, some "misses" are very successful pitches. Just as some great pitches can get hit hard.

Good info.

Thats some great information Catch-22 ...

Question:
Since the data covers all pitchers, what was the percentages on the best pitchers?? What level was this at (HS, College, Pro)??

Great info !!!!

Well, glad you liked the info. Here's more...

Hit Spots
Fastballs: 15%
Curves: 27%
Change Ups: 25%

One reason the #'s are higher for offspeed pitches is that we tap the screen for the intended spot to be just DOWN for those. On the Fastballs we tap in a more specific area, like Down & Away. On 0-2 counts when we throw curveballs, we tap the area beneath the zone - so our intended spot is Down, out of zone.

The answer to HiHardHeat's question is that our BEST pitcher was 22% hit spot, 29% slight miss.

This is high school data, but I charted many college world series games last year to see how they compare. The #'s were better:
25% hit spot, 30% slight miss.

The other thing you might like to know is that the report boils everything down to a "Command Rating". It adds your "hit spot%" plus half of your "slight miss%". So, our best command rating was 37.

It's very interesting and very informative.

And it's obvious that command can be learned. If the best pitcher was within the slight miss category 51 percent of the time at a HS level, then I'm sure that there are some college/pro guys out there that can exceed that number.

Do you have a link to their website? I'd love to check out this product.

Here ya go...

http://www.inside-edge.com/palmscout/reports/pitchersedge.htm

With all this data can you extrapolate what pitches got batters out etc

That's only the beginning, guys. I've been surprised how many coaches still rely on paper and pencil, when this palm deal is just as easy and you get so much better info. TR Hit - check out the other product they have called PalmScout. We use that too. Great for scouting opposing teams.

I like OPP's understatement:

"Of course... I still don't know what I am doing concerning pitching, but son is starting to get a small grasp."

Heehee, I think Zach is catching on fairly well!

quote:

19% of our pitches were Hit Spots (catcher didn't move the glove): Out of those, only 2% were put in play hard.

That suggests that pin-point control tops any other pitching skill...speed, movement etc.

What % of various types of pitches were hit into play hard? Fastball, change, curve???

What location tended to be hardest to hit? For example, down and away.

Any other rules you came up with? There's been plenty of scientific research done on effective pitching, but not at the HS level.

Hitters' well-hit average was lowest on pitches Down & In (.211) and Down & Away (.257). I like running it by Well Hit of Strikes. That is, if we throw a strike in that particular locaiton, how many of those are well-hit? The answer is .077 (8%) for Down & In, and .081 for Down & Away. Compare that to Middle / Middle, which was .272 (27%).

Command is key. There's no doubt about it. There are other factors too, of course. Count is a big one. We have interesting data there too. Pitch type is another.

Well-Hit of Fastball Strikes was 15%, and Non-Fastballs, 10%. These are our team numbers from 2005. It varies from pitcher to pitcher.

I "heard" from a guy who knew a guy who was a catcher in the minors, never made the show but did catch starters on rehabs. He said that he could tell what level the pitcher came from by the accuracy of their pitches.

Early levels were in the general area, off by 6 inches or so;

Mid levels hit the target much more regularly'

And the big boys hit the target with only occasional misses.