How many players is too much on Fall Rosters?

61 players on fall roster at Cisco College (TX) which is a D1 JuCo in NJCAA Region 5. Cisco almost always Fields a really good team in the toughest JuCo Conference in America.  But 61 kids? Really?? How many of those kids knew there would be 60 other players there when they committed? Better do your homework! All of those kids are going home at end of fall semester but at least 20 won’t be going back in the spring. Over-recruiting is rampant at many D3 & NAIA schools also. An NAIA HC recently told me he has over 100 kids in his program. He kids a financial incentive for all he brings in over a certain threshold (80 - I think).  Better do your homework people. Many, many schools are using athletic “walk on roster spots” as a way to bolster tuition income. At these schools the only opportunity the walk on kids get is the opportunity to pay for school. 

I don't know that there is a typical amount at D1 schools l It is largely dependent on the coach's philosophy regarding walk-ons, development, etc.

I would add it is tough to know how many each school has because many do not put out a fall roster so unless you go look for yourself or talk to a player there is very little way to know.  Coaches have different philosophies.  Some say I'm gonna give as many kids as want a chance to earn a spot but I know going in that X number are not up for grabs because those kids have proven they can play.  Others say I have only 2-5 slots open and I'm gonna bring in a limited number to fill those slots of kids I think can help me. 

As has been said, NAIA and D3 are notorious as a group for bringing in a lot of kids in the fall because they get part of their salaries for how many they have.  If you are wondering, you better go look for yourself in the fall.  Not a good time if you are one of the ones who is told in December that there is no room for you in the inn.

55 at a D1?  I've never heard of anything close to that number.  I think upper 30's is about the most I've seen a D1 team have in the fall, but I'm sure there may be some that have more...but 55 seems ridiculous.    Did you son have any idea that they would have that many? 

As far as Juco's, D3's, etc.  Upper 50's, low 60's and even more isn't uncommon.  Keep in mind, those kids are money makers for the school, and if they are willing to come in, even if it's only 1 semester, that's a large chuck of $$$ for the school.   My son is a first year volunteer assistant at an NAIA school.  I know in the past they have had 80+ in the fall....and end up in the upper 50's, low 60's by spring (they play a full JV schedule).   They get a lot of international kids....who ultimately decide that the states (and winter) isn't for them

"All of those kids are going home at the end of the fall semester but at least 20 won’t be going back in the spring."

Let's say you get cut after the Fall? What do you do? Besides throw in the proverbial towel.  What has happened for our experienced commentators? 

Yeah I thought 55 was a ton too!  Program is rebuilding and we thought we would have low mid 40's.. but it appears that they have a ton of Juco transfers that have far exceeded the "whatever typical amount of Juco transfer's " is. 

There are only a few spots that are not up for grabs, maybe like 3 or 4 - the remaining 30 or so rosters spots are pretty much up for grabs.  I know that this isn't typical and you could feel the nervous energy in the freshman's faces when I was there.  But the good news is- if they work hard and do well, they will earn a spot. There will be no waiting behind upper classman .  Freshman will have a decent shot at starting for position players and getting innings as a pitcher. Cather is up for grabs, SS, 1b, 3b  even Friday starter..

still- it seems like a lot.  I am sure the upper classman were astonished as well.   A lot of Plan B's will need to be formulated. 

Son's experience with a strong D2 is typically about 40 in the Fall, with usually 1-2 cuts and 3-5 Freshman are tagged for Redshirt (RS) year.  And RS is legitimate with many of the kids who RS as Freshman contributing in later years. 

Hard to believe any good comes from rosters of 50+ at any level.  It is hard enough for many players on 35 man rosters to get their ABs and innings--there must be little hope for so many kids who have to put in the work and time commitment to be on the team with these huge rosters.

fishnsail posted:

Yeah I thought 55 was a ton too!  Program is rebuilding and we thought we would have low mid 40's.. but it appears that they have a ton of Juco transfers that have far exceeded the "whatever typical amount of Juco transfer's " is. 

There are only a few spots that are not up for grabs, maybe like 3 or 4 - the remaining 30 or so rosters spots are pretty much up for grabs.  I know that this isn't typical and you could feel the nervous energy in the freshman's faces when I was there.  But the good news is- if they work hard and do well, they will earn a spot. There will be no waiting behind upper classman .  Freshman will have a decent shot at starting for position players and getting innings as a pitcher. Cather is up for grabs, SS, 1b, 3b  even Friday starter..

still- it seems like a lot.  I am sure the upper classman were astonished as well.   A lot of Plan B's will need to be formulated. 

Wow, sounds like an awful situation.  I would caution your "freshman will have a decent shot at starting for position players" comment, especially because you mention a ton of Juco transfers.  It's tough enough for a freshman to earn playing time....throw in a bunch of guys 2 or 3 years older and that "tough" just got even tougher.  Juco guys being brought into D1's are typically "D1 guys" that didn't go D1 out of HS, for many different reasons.  Now those guys have a year or two of college experience....and are showing up expecting to contribute.   D1's don't bring in Juco guys unless they expect them to contribute and play right away.  They don't bring them in to "fill roster spots".  Good luck to your son....hopefully things work out well.

JUCO guys are brought in to contribute right away.  They've also been training 5-7+ hours a day for 2 years straight.   Pretty tough for most college freshman to compete in that atmosphere.   D1 Fall Ball for most college freshman is brutal.  D1 Fall Ball for most JUCO guys is a nice easy day.

Backstop22 posted:

Son's experience with a strong D2 is typically about 40 in the Fall, with usually 1-2 cuts and 3-5 Freshman are tagged for Redshirt (RS) year.  And RS is legitimate with many of the kids who RS as Freshman contributing in later years. 

Hard to believe any good comes from rosters of 50+ at any level.  It is hard enough for many players on 35 man rosters to get their ABs and innings--there must be little hope for so many kids who have to put in the work and time commitment to be on the team with these huge rosters.

I agree.  It's tough on these young men who work hard only to sit all season or be "cut", at least in part because of the numbers game.  I suspect some coaches say, why does roster size or number of Fall invitees matter?  What, are you afraid of competition?  Of course not.  But to me that is not exactly a fair point -- when you get over 50 players, can the Coaches truly assess everyone adequately and fairly?  In any case where there are cuts, there is a risk that some favoritism or inequality of opportunity could come into play.  It's just human nature and unavoidable.  If the invited/walk on/preferred walk on player is advised of what the numbers are and goes in with his eyes open, that is one thing.  But it seems there are many instances of the Coach not exactly giving full disclosure.  I would hope a Coach would not encourage a recruit to enroll to meet quotas or to earn a bonus but apparently that does happen.  I agree that due diligence is essential - but as other posters have stated, this information is not always publicly available, and even if you ask the Coach directly (which can be difficult to do) or other players, you may not get the whole truth.

This Board could be useful to report this type of information, but understandably folks are hesitant to report "private" information on a public forum, even with a screen name and the person reporting could be unrealistic or have an axe to grind, which renders some of the information useless.  The power of information is with the HC and hopefully he or she is acting fairly.  The player has to go in with his eyes open, control what he can control and hope for the best!

Son got his eyes opened when he showed up for practice for the D2 JuCo he was recruited to.   First day there were 55 or so.   Throughout most of the fall season, there were 50 or so on average.  A few had quit within a week or so.

Some asked the coach if there would be cuts.  His response was he usually didn't have to.   By spring opening day the roster was down to about 35.   The rest either quit due to grades, disillusionment or injury.   There were a few "red shirted."   By the end of the season the active roster was down to 28 due to some more injuries and a few that quit due to very little playing time.

By contrast the coach of the D2 university that recruited him, only had 28 or so to begin the season.   He did not feel the need to over recruit.  There were a few that were dropped due to injury (usually red shirted) and maybe one or two due to grades.   They still had at least 25 or so actively on the team by end of season.

So just to update on Frosh Son's situation.  They had the first official meeting and it appears there are about 26/27 returnees and 27/28 combo frosh and transfers (50/50 split between the newbies).

Looks like it is going to be a interesting fall, as they also hired a Drill sergeant for workouts , lol,which start immediately.   Son is a little nervous about the situation but I have confidence in him as he has worked his whole life for this.  Just had the first phone pep talk of many I am sure. 

I will keep updating this thread as the fall progresses through all the ups and downs..

thank you all for your support!

An update on Frosh son and Team, One month in for his Mid D1

A few kids quit and left and now they are down to 53ish ... 

Workouts have been tough. He usually gets up at 4:50 to get there at 5:30 five days a week. Then he gets back around 7 ,showers and eats Breakfast then goes to his first classes which start at 8 M,W,F and 9 T,Th.   His classes are done by noon. He will eat lunch after that then heads to the field for practice or bullpens.   

On Saturdays they have to help out at the schools Home football games.  Then Sat night there may be a party or two which he says he is the designated driver(hmmm)

He came to School 6'3" and 175 and  today he is 182lbs and its all muscle gain (per him).  They have him on a  5000 calorie diet, a lot of eggs and protein. 

 They started Intra squad scrimmages this past weekend.  He pitched 1 inning(first inn since july) , did OK ,couple walks a couple errors, 1 weak hit but is figuring things out.  He said velo was down a little but offspeed was working well. spoke to to his pitching coach back home soon after. they spoke and he gave him a fix for his next bullpen..and to bring the velo and his typical control back. 

   He saw the 25 or so other kids pitch too..  He says that it looks wide open for spots. 

Word is there may be some cuts this week (thank god) . 

I will update the progress..

thank you

I think my son has 41 in fall.  A few are hurt so really close to the 35 already.  Son has gotten 2 innings in scrimmage last week and pitched as always 2 K's, 1 hit, no walks and will get 1 today and should get 1 Saturday in Scrimmage with Clemson.  He has gotten 1 at bat and was on deck in another scrimmage.  Probably earned a little respect and maybe more at bats yesterday as he hit 3 of 20 pitches out and 1 was really deep.  Has never worked so hard at his batting as he has in the past 3 months.  It has always come easy but as a pitcher trying to earn a spot on a P5 hitting lineup he has had to put in about 2 hours a day extra and many days by himself because it is after his pitching workouts when the other hitters are already gone. 

PitchingFan posted:

I think my son has 41 in fall.  A few are hurt so really close to the 35 already.  Son has gotten 2 innings in scrimmage last week and pitched as always 2 K's, 1 hit, no walks and will get 1 today and should get 1 Saturday in Scrimmage with Clemson.  He has gotten 1 at bat and was on deck in another scrimmage.  Probably earned a little respect and maybe more at bats yesterday as he hit 3 of 20 pitches out and 1 was really deep.  Has never worked so hard at his batting as he has in the past 3 months.  It has always come easy but as a pitcher trying to earn a spot on a P5 hitting lineup he has had to put in about 2 hours a day extra and many days by himself because it is after his pitching workouts when the other hitters are already gone. 

PItchingfan.....my son tried the 2-way thing his freshman year.  I've got to tell you it was a grind.  I think it effected him on the mound (which was his primary position).  Sophomore year he didn't hit...just a PO.   Junior year, he went back to DH'ing.  He was the closer and they didn't win much so he wasn't throwing much.  Senior year, arm injury so he was the every day DH.  mid-way thru the year he was hitting .370 before he missed some time due to sickness.  Ended up .320.  He could have come back to pitching late in the season, but by that time had just decided that the 2-way thing wasn't worth it.  He couldn't concentrate on either and it effected him in both positions.  He was at a lower level mid-major.  Can't imagine what it'd be like doing it at a P5.

For a successful 2-way player, I direct you'll to Mike Ford. Now playing 1B with the Yankees. Was one of the best all-time pitchers in Princeton's history.

I've never seen a harder worker or more ferocious competitor. (When heckled, he would walk over to the heckler [be it the opposing dugout or stands], tell him how he would retire the side, would deliver, and on his way back to the dugout detour back to the heckler.)

He would literally sleep in the locker room so he could get extra reps.

Danny Hultzen was also a very good two way player at UVA, but was drafted as a P and while it took him 9 years and several injuries/surgeries, is finally a P for the Cubs.

My son was at a D-1 Mid Major for 2 years and they had 40-43 in the fall both years.  Last year he transferred to a D2 Juco and they had over 70 for the fall.  Pretty sure that was done to make some money as they had to pay for t-shirts and hats in he fall.   This year he at a P5 and they have 38 on their roster.  When he was still in HS, his travel team played at an SEC school and before he played his game, the team was scrimmaging.  They had 53 guys in uniform that day.

I just wanted to post an update as maybe this can help other players or parents or both.

We visited our Freshman Son last week at school.  We were quite happy to see him. He is a super good kid that everyone likes..A real good Egg..  The previous few weeks he has been doing well in Academics ,good at getting on with a new busy routine and making friends and doing Ok in baseball.  What does OK mean?  It's probably Borderline at best as you they have 53 kids fighting for 35 roster spots and 27 travel spots with about 15-18 JUCO transfers...on a mid D1

When we visited him you could tell he was off. His mind was on his girlfriend who is at another school far away(who also visited him a few weeks earlier). He seemed nervous and worried about his "making the team" and was often focused on his phone rather than us or the task at hand.  He didn't seem himself. He was focused on how he doesnt like the area where the school is and the town its in and looking at all the negative side instead of the positive side. 

And there are always positive sides. He is healthy, He is smart, He is Free..  I can go on and on. 

It is true that the only reason he picked this school was for baseball and the coaches and he would of never went there if it wasnt for that.  I just want to highlight that.  He seemed like he would be "loved" there and he has some ties to the staff but , in the end, he probably would of stayed more local if he had a better deal closer to home and "if" he knew there would be almost 60 kids at the start of fall ball..

We saw him pitch while we were there  where he did well for 2 innings and then "not so well" in the third.  Same thing happened this week. 2 good innings and roughed up in the 3rd. 

He looked off to me on the mound. After a great dominant summer + working out heavy for the first time  we thought he would have a great fall .  Instead it appeared he was a bit lost and not smooth. Command was off. etc..  He isn't hurt so we can rule that out. 

maybe its the workouts, maybe its eating 5k cals a day to put on weight , maybe it is his girlfriend, maybe its being homesick, maybe it is a combo of all of the above.  

When we left we really tried to accent the positive and good things but realized that a Plan B or C may have to be implemented. 

maybe it wasn't the right fit in the first place. maybe it still is.  Maybe in the next 2 weeks he will turn it around and find himself.

Adversity is a strength builder.  Happiness is key.  

So that is where he is right now. It is tough for us and tougher for him I am sure.   I know that if he gets redshirted he probably will not stay .  It may be time to start looking into this portal thing, or a temporary juco or both. Maybe that was the Universe or God's plan all along for him.  Not to go the easy route. Things are rarely easy.  Of course there are the gifted athletes, the "Freaks" as I call them.  They will make all the teams no matter what. It is the other 90-95% that have to have it in them ..to work hard.... to have it in their heart..to overcome adversity.

I just wanted to put this out for all the players and parents who are in HS right now and looking for schools. 

You need to ask yourself.. "Is baseball the only reason I am going to this school"?  If your answer is mostly yes then maybe it might not be the correct fit. 

best of luck to all of you.  Have a great weekend

Obstacles don't have to stop you. If you run into a wall, don't turn around and give up. Figure out how to climb it, go through it, or work around it. - Michael Jordan