HS pitcher throws 191 pitches

Maybe you have a local sports page that might be interested to know this stat.

wow...who is this coach?  Would be great to hear his side of this idea....

I would say unbelievable except for I believe it!

One of my old players threw 144 pitches last year in march in a meaningless freshman game with a inch of snow on the outfield......he still hasn't been released to throw.

Or a child abuse hotline!

What?  Was it a slow-pitch game?  

191 pitches sounds very irresponsible to me.  If it were my son, as a parent, I'd be livid.  

3 at fault here

coach-should be ? By AD IMO

parents(even if not there I would bet this kid has thrown high numbers before)

pitcher-what's he thinking? No game this early or even In Tourn champ that import to win. Doubt any college coach was there to see him, they would be concerned by the pitch count too. Needs to speak up and tell coach I'm done, even if he has to say sore arm if it's not. 

Unfortunately this kid has chance of bring another statistic. 

This one is all on the HC, IMO.  If parents stepped in at say 110 pitches, or set max pitch count ahead of time, then they appear to be "that" parent... another out of line helicopter parent run amuck.  And not many pitchers are going tell their coach "I can't go anymore"... a talented 16-18 yo will feel invincible and is likely to want nothing more than to continue in there to get the W just as much as the coach obviously wanted it.  The responsibility is on the HC... he abused it and really no excuse.  If it was a state championship... with a Sr pitcher who had no intentions of playing beyond HS... then Maybe...

In all honesty and trying to be objective and give the guy a chance to explanin himself, I cannot fathom any commentary from the coach that would suggest anything other than what my initial thought is: he should be let go ASAP as he clearly is not qualified for the job.  Can anyone disagree with me?  This is not a knee-jerk reaction.  Really, I know that it is harsh and that we are talking about a guy's passion and potential livelihood, so I don't say this lightly.  This falls into the category of:  "On what planet does he live to think that this is remotely acceptable behavior?"

I am not all that convinced, but will give the benefit of the doubt to the OP that this did occur, and the information relayed by the OP's son is accurate. 

191 pitches through 9 innings would have "averaged" 21.2 pitches per inning, which means there were certainly some that were much higher.

I also fall into the category of - "no explanation, can justify that pitch count".  I would hope / expect that this particular coach is reported to the AD, and not allowed to coach another game...that simple!

Here is his pitching line, the other scorekeeper was within a few pitches.  

# Name IP BF Ball Str PIT R RA ER ERA ERA9 K H BB IBB K/BB K/GI BB/GI H/GI HB BK WP HR WHIP OBP BAA 3   10.00 44 77 114 191 6 0.60 5 3.50 4.50 11 11 5 0 2.20 7.70 3.50 7.70 1 0 1 0 1.600 0.386 0.289 16   1.00 8 14 23 37 5 5.00 4 28.00 36.00 2 3 1 0 2.00 14.00 7.00 21.00 0 0 1 1 4.000 0.500 0.429   TOTALS 11.00 52 91 137 228 11 1.00 9 5.73 7.36 13 14 6 0 2.17 8.27 3.82 8.91 1 0 2 1 1.818 0.404 0.311

Good coaches must hate this kind of thing.

 I saw a team lose a game last week because of a strict pitch count of 75. The kid had 12 Ks in 6 innings and was now at 80 and was not allowed to pitch in the 7th even though he was a big strong kid and appeared to be working effortlessly. It stung a little when the new pitcher walked 3 and gave up 2 hits, but every arm on the team is healthy.

I'm gonna reserve judgment. This is something that wouldn't have even raised an eyebrow 20-30 years ago. Yes, we know more now. However, I'm not convinced this is child abuse or grounds for dismissal. Would I do this? No. Nor would I think it very smart. However, note that such a line wouldn't even be all that unusual in a Japanese High School or in the Nippon league and they have far fewere incidence of injury than US high schools. I had a few games in high school where I had to have thrown over 200 pitches (wouldn't know because we didn't count). Was it smart? No. However, my arm didn't fall off and I don't have any lingering problems.

the questions I would want answered were:

Is this a primarily fastball pitcher or a junkball Guy? Heck, maybe this is a knuckleballer.

Is this a common practice of the coach?

Is this kid a 14yo freshman or an 18yo Senior?

Did he consistently throw 19-20 pitches an inning or did he have a 45 pitch inning in there somewhere? that makes a huge difference to me.

Personally, the only times you see this anymore is late in the season when the kid wouldn't be expected to have to take the mound again. I don't think the one outing would have any real effect on a kid if he can keep his mechanics sound or if he isn't a hard thrower who relies just on his fastball. If this is a habit of the coach, though, someone needs to address it.

roothog:  I hear what you are saying, and agree with the direction you went on this, with one caveat.  The Japanese, and pitchers of the past - threw the ball a lot more than players do today.  There is the notion, that the body can achieve, without injury, what it is trained to do.  So if you train your body to throw a lot of pitches, theoretically some believe that is possible without injury.  I happen to believe there is merit in that argument.  The problem is trying to convince MLB to buy into this belief, with the huge contracts.  If anything, the current prevailing belief is inning count / limitations.  For this reason, I don't think you will see anytime soon, any "real" concerted effort to train for heavy work loads.  Maybe this will result in the higher rate of injury, but I don't think anyone really knows for sure.

I would likely wager, 1) there was the high pitch count inning (very bad), and 2) this coach is not training his pitchers for this workload anywhere near what you see in the Nippon league.

For these reasons, I stand firm on my earlier post.

Oh, I agree. I'm just not ready to have the coach dragged into jail for child abuse without knowing a little more. Persoanlly, I train my pitchers for a heavier load, though I don't necessarily put that load on them, if that makes sense. I've had a lot of success following Japanes-style pitching programs, but still don't have my pitchers throw, in games, that kind of load. I can usually sell parents on the heavy training load, but not the in-game load.

But, to be clear, I think this coach was almost definitelty out of line and, if it were my kid, I'd have thrown a fit.

On the other side, my son was playing in a 14maj tournament this past weekend for a coach friend of mine as a guest player. He pulled his ace at 60 pitches because that's all he allows

i am not shocked by this but i totally disagree with you...that is pretty standard though.

even if there is no problem with HUGE pitch counts in a big game, districts states or whatever we are in the begining of APRIL...common logic goes sooooo far in life and this fails every aspect of it.

I graduated HS 26 years ago and our ace begged to stay in a Legion state tournament game after his 130th pitch in the 8th inning of a tie game. our coach looked at him and said no - I should have taken you out sooner. I think you need to go back closer to 40 years ago.

To finish what I was saying earlier, that is what this teams parents were used to (and the team has been intact for about 7 years). I found it amusing that when the opposing pitcher hit 75 pitches, these parents acted like it was child abuse and were making loud comments about how this kid would need TJ surgery. Keep in mind, for both teams, this was about four weeks into the season.

I believe Tampa minor league pitchers throw max of 75 pitchers per outing reguardless of age or level...

I graduated 30 years ago next month (jeez) and we never counted pitches. I do know that MLB didn't keep track as a stat until 1999 and STATS, Inc. started in 1986.

June 14, 1974 Red Sox vs. Angels:

Nolan Ryan - 235 pitches (pitching coach kept track - for what reason I don't know)

Luis Tiant - 190 pitches (estimated from box score)

The pitch count wasn't mentioned by anyone.

In fact Ryan averaged 180 pitches per outing in 1974 and threw 259 vs. KC that year.

I don't think there is any evidence that there are fewer injuries in the pitch count age. I'm also not saying there aren't. While it is the standard noe to strictly limit pitch counts, it isn't universal. Look at what the Rangers are doing.

I am of the camp that these restrictions are more harmful than helpful. However, I'm certainly not willing to test my inclinations on other kids by straying too far from the standard. I'm especially willing to accept ASMI's study that tracked the damage caused by overuse.

I'm also going to have to disclose that I once (fully aware) allowed my son to throw 156 pitches as a 12yo. I had built him up to that. There were absolutely no lingering effects. However, I don't plan to push it like that again. No reason. It probably wasn't worth it then. he just kept telling me he was fine and wanted to stay in and I let him. I vowed after that not to let him make those decisions. I'm also not sure how I would handle his hs coach leaving him out there that long. Would I say something? I'd like to think I would, but I'm not positive.

I had a long reply typed out, but I deleted it. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

I feel bad for kids that are subjected to coaches like this. Ignorance isn't always bliss.

this pretty much sums it up.

I gather from a previous post that your son is now only 14.  You have no idea what the lingering effects might be at this point.

Here is a link to one of the best pitching interviews I have ever seen.  Of course, it's just my opinion.  It's with Tom Seaver.  He states that they did have pitch counts back in the day - late 60's, early 70's.  He said there weren't blanket pitch counts, but it depended on the pitcher.  He said his pitch count was 135, Nolan Ryan was around 155, Jerry Koosman was 145.  Obviously, they were aware of this back then in the MLB even though they may not have kept the official stat.

I encourage you pitching guys to take a look at this.  I love it and go back and watch it every year or so.

http://m.mlb.com/video/v396394...-mechanics/?c_id=mlb

ignoring the innings

Using pitch counts the dumbest thing to use as a hard number to call a child abuse hotline for HS players. Ridiculous. Some kids are gassed after 60 pitches and others are stronger as they hit 100+ over 7 innings. Let them play and if the kid is gassed, he has to open his mouth and a coach worth his salt should be able to see when ofr if his pitcher is losing it or has had it. . Not mommy and daddy.I also disagree that it's maybe all right if it'd a state tournament or a HS pitcher not playing past HS. What's the difference. It's either yay or nay on the 190 pitches. Who cares if he's a D1 or not. No player has priority over another as far as players go. The bigger issue is the HC not paying mind to the max inning limit.

This is the result of mommy and daddy helicoptering over their kids HS after school activities and feel they need to be part of the action instead of supporting their players.

All I was saying (and deleting your post doesn't keep it out of my email box) is that the common school of thought isn't the only one and there are those, like Nolan Ryan, who have a point. First, your anectodal proof of your own injury isn't "proof" of anything. I would also question your claim that it's proven. There has been some research, however, it is far from conclusive. Further, there's a problem with trying to "prove" any of this. It's the basis of the proof. Increase in surgeries can't be proof. They simply didn't operate at the same rate 15-40 years ago. A youth kid with a true injury wasn't likely to even be taken to the doctor, let alone operated on. So the stats, if taken that way, would almost certainly show an increase in REPORTED INJURIES. It works the other way, too. The common piece of proof concerning injury rates among Japanese pitchers is that there are far fewer stints on the DL list for pitchers, but that doesn't really mean anything - it may just be that Japanese pitchers are less likely to be put on the dl, maybe MLB is just far more conservative in this area. However, I don't think you can just, out of hand, dismiss opinions like those in the Nolan Ryan Camp at this juncture. However, I don't think it's ridiculous at all to be very conservative with arms. I didn't agree with what the Nats did with Strasburg, but I understand the approach (however, I don't understand why they aren't more concerned with his mechanics than his pitch counts).

Personally, it's my opinion that pitch counts are disaterous on youth baseball because too many coaches use them as a crutch. Individual pitchers are drastically different and coaches, rather than educate themselves, rely on the pitch count/inning count rules. If, say the pitch count rule (or recommendation) is 85 pitches, they feel like they are doing there job simply by limiting the pitch count. they don't consider at all that some pitchers could easily go beyond that without any risk while others shouldn't (for one reason or another) even pitch anywhere near that number. They also tend to just count pitches rather than take into account how those pitches are accumulated. 80 pitches at 35/30/15 per innings far more strenuous than 15/15/15/10/15/10.

Further, I've never justified what this coach did. I was simply contending that calling for him to be brought up on child abuse charges or fired with no more info than we're given is just a tad bit overreaction.

I'll be honest with you, if it takes a kid 29 pitches to get 3 outs, over 7 innings, I will have second thoughts on him ever pitching for me again.  Just on talent alone.

And I would love to see a pitcher who hits the same velocity, with the same mechanics on pitch 200 as they had on pitch 1.

LOL. That was supposed to be 100+ pitches

Interestingly enough, Tommy John is another who believes that limiting pitches has caused more rather than less injury. I know he's no expert, so I'm not using him as an expert witness - I'm just saying.

I'll bet because they spend so much time worrying how many pitches they throw and even gotten to the point of insanity where people actually want to add in  warmups and throws to 1B instead of just throwing, building up arm strength and proper conditioning on off-days and during off-season to be able to pitch a 9-inning game or 7 for HS, then you want the kid to ramp it up in a big game and never was properly conditioned for the long haul. Then BOOM. Blame it on how many pitches the kid threw in one game when in reality, he probably misused it more outside that one game Also, pitching for a bunch of showcases and regular teams compound the problem on why kids go down with arm trouble.

Ha, gotcha.  makes a little more sense now.

As to my son, my point was that that one day going 156 didn't have any effect. let's say he did have arm problems down the road, would you honestly make the argument  when he's 19 that it was that one effort at 12 that did the damage? Now, if your argument was that customary use in this manner was the contributing cause, you'd have a good argument. However, that was really an isolated event. He will occasionally (maybe twice a year) reach 100 pitches, usually late in the season, but not more than a couple over that.

To the other point, I'd say this must have been a pitch count for Nolan Ryan when with the Mets as a very young guy, because he routinely went over 200 pitches in the seventies and eighties and it certainly didn't cost him a lengthy career.

I'm no expert on this, I'll be honest.  But Here are two points I think need to be brought up from a non baseball point of view.

1.  Is it really good on your body to do the exact same thing, the exact same way over 100 plus times in a two hour period.

2. There are all kinds of examples and research to prove both sides of this argument.  When it came to my son, the other kids I coached, and their future health, I figured it wasnt worth the risk.  So why risk it if others have been hurt by over throwing.

JH,

  I wish you would repost what you deleted. Your opinion adds to the discussion, which is what this is. I think there are some here that are shocked that there is another side to the argument. If the purpose of this forum were to post a story like the OP's and then have averybody take just one side and pile on the guy, it'd get pretty boring. You can go to Foxnews or MSNBC for that.

However, the argument of the minority are that limiting pitching actually LEADS to more injury. If that opinion were ultimately correct, then, by being overcautious, you would actually be increasing the risk of injury. Having said that, if I were to pick a side to be cautious on, I'd go the same way you did.

George Burns lived to be 100 Years old, by all means lets start smoking cigars!

People tend to believe what they want to even if they have to ignore some professional advice to do it.

I'll make one more argument that I don't hear much. I also think a reliance on pitch counts masks a real problem. When a pitcher suffers a serious injury, the first thought is usually pitch counts. This has become a scapegoat for what I believe to be a much more serious concern - mechanics. The evidence is sketchy because there is so little research. I know this is controversial, but I'll tell you what I once did. I simply Googled "Tommy John Surgery." In the article (I believe wickapedia) there were 19 names of mlb pitchers who have had the procedure. I then looked at video of each of those. 18 of the 19 had one thing in common. They relied on the infamous "inverted w" for scap load. Then I looked at guys with longer, fairly injury-free careers like Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson, and Greg Maddux. I think I made a list of 15 such guys. Looked at their video. Not a single "inveted w" guy in the group. That's not really proof, but it is certainly a starting point. This is a mechanic we see FAR more than in the past, mainly because it is a very good engine for velocity increase. Coincidence or are we looking ion the wrong place to find the source of increased reported injuries?

Originally Posted by The Doctor:

I saw a team lose a game last week because of a strict pitch count of 75…

The game wasn’t lost because of the pitch count. It was lost because the coach hadn’t developed any other competent pitchers.

Wow! That's a lot of pitchers. That boxscore must be seven pages long.

Here's another

http://www.maxpreps.com/blogs/...ch-complete-game.htm

Oh I see what your saying, Typical HS coaching!