HS pitcher throws 191 pitches

Thought this would interest you, stats. From a Washington Post article today (can't imagine where they are getting their info- especially since I could come up with 5 or 10 more just off the top of my head):

If 194 sounds like a lot of pitches, it is, even at the major league level. Since 1914, there have been only six games in which a pitcher has thrown 190 or more pitches in a game, and none since Sandy Koufax in 1961.

To rephrase, then:

(1)EVERY study conducted has found a coorelation between the number of pitches thrown in a season and the risk of arm injury.

(2) No study to date has found a coorelation between curveballs (of any type - "proper" or not) and increased rates of injury.

Note: These studys have started with the hypothesis that throwing curves at an early age increases the risk of injury. the studies then attempted to prove this using "self-reported" curves. This means that curves both "proper" and not were included. The only study I kow of that defined what mechanics constituted a curveball was the Nissen study. This research showed LESS torque on the elbow when a curve was thrown than when a fastball was thrown.

Even Tho I was a real a$$ about my guy not throwing a CB until a certain age.I do feel that a properly thrown CB in general is not such a bad thing.Heres the problem these kids go thru enough innings that a FB along with a CU is enough.Until the kid gets tired.Thats when you start seeing the CB every 3rd pitch instead of the 2-3 an inning.So what you end up with is a fatigued arm throwing CB's late in games when everyone watching knows the kids tired and you just hope he can find a way to get off the field and still be OK.The people here stating nothing wrong with the younger kids throwing CB are right.But I would also think these same people have a real good clue on this never ending subject.Thats NOT what a lot of us see.

I don't think Koufax's name is listed twice.He was done and gone before 31st bday for sure.Couldv'e have been 30th.bday.

Now, Dr. Andrews still insists that kids should not throw the curve until they are 16 or so. His logic, though is a bit strange. But, in a twisted way, makes some sense. Whereas he used to contend that young pitchers shouldn't throw a curve because the mechanics raise the risk of injury, he has reversed his position there and now basis the advise on the idea that pitchers who throw the curve when they are young have a lot of success and that success leads to being overused by the coach. This is probably one of the reasons we always associated curves with injured arms. the guys throwing curves were probably a lot more likely to be the guys throwing a lot of pitches overall, so when they got hurt, we just naturally blamed the curve. I am at a loss to explain how we used to think of these things. When I was a kid, it was common to see a LL'er throw 150 pitches and a high school pitcher even more. Then when he blew out his arm, we'd say, "must have been that wicked curve ball." Maybe we should have been saying, "Maybe 150 pitches a game three times a week is too much?"

Which is the REAL culprit. Throwing while fatigued. When fatigued, a pitcher makes suttle changes in his mechanics to compensate. Usually, what you see is that there timing on external rotation of the elbow lags. Personally, I suspect this particular mechanic is a big problem. Throwing any pitch while fatigued increases the risk of injury. Having said that, there's a reason a tired pitcher starts throwing more curves when he's tired. It puts a lot less stress on the elbow.

Something no one has mentioned that just occured to me. 191 pitches in 15 innings. That's less than 13 pitches an inning. That's cruising. Not that I'm condoning this, but usually when you see these high pitch counts, they are over 7-9 innings and 25+ pitches per inning.

Your being way to nice.99.999% of those CB thrown is because of what the pitch being called from the dugout.

Point taken!

Pitchers who regularly throw with a tired arm are 36X more likely to require surgery later. http://t.co/9fJpJfQVmT pic.twitter.com/gxtAUVMhnd

— Duke Orthopedics (@DukeOrtho) May 16, 2014

To be clear, though, Shelby, before you dismiss those studies, at least two were done by ASMI and signed by, among others, Dr. Andrews. The 10 year study concluded in 2009 was conducted, in part, to prove the hypothesis that Dr. Andrews (and others) had been working under concerning the dangers of curve balls and youth pitchers. However, the study didn't show any coorelation at all. He does, as I wrote before, still advise against curves for the reasons I stated above dealing with overuse.

Coach....I understand the "I'm not a prospect" thing...but how about this.  The kid goes off to college....continues to play sports...intramural, club or otherwise...and graduates.  He gets a job...and decides to play a pick up baseball game with friends.  His arms goes....and he has to take a bunch of time off work because he can't write/type or do anything else with his right arm.  See where I'm going??   Yes, the 194 pitches may seem ok to him...and maybe his arm doesn't hurt today....but that's not where these things end up causing problems....it's months or years later when all that wear and tear finally catches up.

This is what we call a "slippery slope" fallacy.

This would be easier to defend  with the argument I'm about to make if it were closer to 150 pitches, but I'll try it anyway. The major problem with a large pitch count in a particular game is that it's been the conclusion of most studies that the highest risk factor for arm injuries is when a pitcher continues to pitch after reaching fatigue. This is true in weight lifting as well.

So let's break it down. the kid threw 194 pitches over 15 innings. That breaks down to just under 13 pitches per inning. That's a remarkable number. Assuming most innings were in that basic neighborhood and he didn't have several 3 pitch innings and several 25 pitch innings, it means that he took 14 breaks after pitching in sets of approximately 13 reps. if I asked you to bench press 200 lbs. 100 times you obviously couldn't do it in one set. If you did it in four sets of 25, you might do it, but in each of those sets you would become fatigued soewhere during the set of 25 and struggle with bad form to make the final lifts. This bad form increases the chance of injury and, indeed, after fatigue, each rep causes more damage than the rep before. Now, instead, lets say I let you lift in 20 sets of 5 reps with a four minute break between sets. You would be likely to succeed in reaching the 100 required lifts with proper form and it would be much less damaging to you.

Pitching is no different. All pitch counts are not equal. A kid throwing 80 pitches over 3 innings has probably thrown many of those pitches while fatigued. the same pitcher throwing 80 pitches over 9 innings has breezed and probably thrown NO pitches under fatigue. Now, 194 is, we all agree, too many pitches. However, spread out over 15 innings with rest periods in between, I will argue it's not as bad as first glance would suggest.

Something I don't understand.

We (PG) have more data on HS age pitchers than anyone in baseball.  This is compiled at our events and includes, time, place, pitch count, IP, velocity, types of pitches, and just about everything you could think of including notes about mechanics And often video. This data would include a very large % of the top pitching prospects Over a long period of time. 

It does not provide information about what takes place at other places, other events, high school baseball, etc.

Here is what I don't understand... You would think this information would be important to anyone doing a study.  Yet not one person has ever requested this information. Not even the 10 year study.

I'm not claiming this information would provide any solution, but surely all information should be looked at if doing a thorough study.  Especially when so much information exists. Especially when Travel Ball and Showcases are mentioned.  After all, this information is about Travel Ball, Showcases, highest velocities, best prospects, etc.  it includes those that have had TJ surgery and those that haven't. Yet, no one has ever asked for it!

I don't disagree with you except that I think we can often tell when a pitcher is fatigued on an individual basis. For some, it will include a drop in velocity. For others a noticeable change in extaernal rotation timing. For others, it's impossible to tell from just watching.

However, there is a wider question as to what exactly is the line between acceptable and ridiculous. if the discussion here were simply whether 194 pitches is ridiculous, it would be a very short discussion. The answer would be a simple "yes."

To give you an example, I watched a state playoff game last week at the 3A level where a pitcher threw 64 pitches in the second inning. His total pitch count was 88. That number won't even raise an eyebrow, but I find the pitches thrown in that one inning to be maybe more ridiculous that the 194 story and probably more damaging to this kid in the long term.

Dunno about that.  If fatigue cannot be observed it seems entirely logical that fatigue occurs after a certain amount of work.  Is there a better alternative for measuring that than output, i.e. pitch count?

If it is my son's arm I am taking Dr. Andrews advice and not a The Earth is Flat approach.  We must let go of old notions from time to time (not all the time) to become more enlightened.

Yes and this drives me nuts. One reason is that the media and mlb haven't really concentrated on HS age pitching as the problem. They want to go earlier and blame youth travel ball. The only accurate data would be through HS ball and I believe this is where the problem really lies and always has. Most elite players who play on travel/showcase teams are on squads with deep pitching by the time they are 14 or 15. Overuse at this level, in my experience, is rare. However, at the high school level, these kids often find themselves on pitching thin rosters where winning requires that they shoulder the majority of the burden.

And herein lies the problem.  It is difficult to quantify the warning signs of fatigue.  It is different from one pitcher to the next.  The experts in kinesiology and the doctors can't agree on and come up with a "checklist" of what to look for and make a decision on.  How could the baseball community possibly come up with something concrete to teach every coach out there how to make a decision on a pitcher based on fatigue?  It's one of those "I'll know it when I see it" deals.

So, to make things more concrete, they came up with a pitch limit.  Much easier to monitor and relay to every coach everywhere.  Even ASMI agrees that the exact number does not apply to every pitcher.  Some will throw less and become fatigued, some can throw more before they become fatigued.  It is a guideline to be used with some discretion.  However, going as high as 194 is well beyond good discretion.

I think the pitch limit thing is more of a way to pass on a way to make a judgement that is more concrete than "look for fatigue" for many of the reasons that roothog66 outlined.

Originally Posted by proudhesmine:

       

I don't think Koufax's name is listed twice.He was done and gone before 31st bday for sure.Couldv'e have been 30th.bday.

       

We lived in Vero Beach, FL the first 10 yrs. of marriage. Until my husband suffered a Stroke, 2 yrs. ago, he was an English educated/ trained Master Craftsmen and made a career as a residential General Contractor. While in Vero Beach, he met & built a home for Sandy Koufax. Never once did my husband bring up Baseball. Probably why Sandy liked my husband so much!
Although 2013 would loved an autographed baseball. Ha! Later read a biography on Sandy. Unbelievable what he went thru and endured to continue playing as long as he did!  A totally different breed back then. Sandy was quoted having a conversation with the infamous Dr. Jobe's, and jokingly saying that if Dr. Jobe's had come up with the TJ / Tommy John surgery a little earlier,  it would have been known as the SK / Sandy Koufax surgery forever.

Wow! That is great. Talk about a guy that pitched through pain.

To make my somewhat muddy position clear, I'm not against pitch count limits. I truly believe they are probably about the best thing we can do from a rules standpoint to protect young pitchers. My only problem is that coaches often use them as a crutch. Instead of educating themselves and becoming familiar with their indivdual pitchers they use the limits as more than a guideline. I've seen plenty pitchers that I'm convinced can throw beyond the pitch limits imposed, but have no problem shutting them down at that number if it helps the majority of young pitchers. However, I've seen coaches stick with pitchers who shouldn't even throw close to those numbers becaus. "hey they still haven't reached their limit." I just worry that some coaches abdicate their responsibilities to some pitch limit. I don't think there is too much you can do about it, however, so maybe I'm just tilting at windmills.

Travel ball is an easy target when making assumptions. School ball has a short, defined season. Travel ball goes on the rest of the year. So it's easy to make the assumption kids pitch too much in travel ball. All it takes to get the research result you want is data that fits. I saw a lot of travel kids pitch too much from 9U to 14U. We played in tournaments in 9U and 10U that allowed nine innings over the weekend. It was after 14U I saw pitching abuse disappear in travel The less talented kids stopped playing travel. The less knowledgeable coaches were gone. Travel baseball was then about talent and knowledge.

I watched almost weekly arm abuse by our high school coach. I felt he knew little about pitching. My son confirmed it. Pitchers stayed in the game until they absolutely lost it. 120-140 pitch complete games were not out of the ordinary.

My son, a closer almost never came in until the tying and winning runs were on base. He almost never started an inning. One time, in upper 20s wind chill the coach asked him to come from his position with no warm up. My son asked to come out of the game for one hitter to get loose on the sideline then come in. The coach got ticked at him. 

The sad thing is the team had plenty of pitching. But the coach liked to ride his two primary starters. The three years my son played varsity there were always at least three decent starters and five overall decent pitchers. We typically had two games per week. About four times there were three.

No one knows how many pitches are too many. Every player is different. Every situation is different. But there are limits in place just because it stands to reason that there is a limit. How many pitches is too many in a given inning? Wouldn't it stand to reason that a big number of pitches in a given inning is just as dangerous if not more than a big number over several innings? What it really comes down to is common sense and caring more for the health, development and safety of the player over a potential win of a single game. The players most at risk are the more talented players who are ridden like a rented mule because they give the coach a better opportunity to win a game. And many times the parent is more interested in the glory of having his son on the hill and being the man than he is with his health. This stems mostly from ignorance of the risks. And the coach is more concerned with getting the win than he is with the health of the player. There is simply no excuse for riding a player like you see them ridden.

Parents need to educate themselves and they need to educate their players. Many of the best arms in LL are ruined before HS. Many of the best arms at the HS level are ruined by the time college comes around. And many college arms are toast before they can have an opportunity to pitch at the professional level. You only have so many bullets in that gun. Instead of developing arms its the destruction of arms. And it starts at the youth levels of the game. It continues at the HS level.

I have seen kids throw 170 pitches plus several times over the years. Heck I have seen youth pitchers throw complete games on Friday at a tourney only to be brought back for complete games on Sunday. And they played SS on the games they didn't pitch. And the Dad was beaming with the praise from the other parents and coaches about him being a stud. If the coach is a clown why are you worried about calling him a clown? Teach your son and educate him. Educate yourself and stand up for him. And don't get caught up in the hype of being a LL super star and a HS work horse.

Then if your son is lucky enough to be a college player research how the pitchers are used. How many innings the guys throw. How they are developed. And make an informed decision. There is risk with everything and your not going to take the risk out of the game. But there is also some common sense to this. And if you don't have it and the coach doesn't have it well your going to get situations like this.

My son's travel ball team (17U) will be very good.  They have a dozen top level pitchers on the roster.  They play 6 games max in a week/weekend....so they won't have any issues with kids throwing too much.  Starters are scheduled a week to 10 days ahead so that scouts/coaches can plan to see the guys they want.  Relievers will throw when needed...but they've got enough kids that there's just no way anyone will get overworked.  Obviously it's not like that on a 12U team....but when comparing HS spring seasons to travel ball, the amount of innings thrown and chance for overuse will be minimal with the travel kids...even though their teams will likely play more games.

Here's another thing.  I frequent another board that really mostly deals with pre-HS kids.  I hear ALOT about roster size and play time and all that.  Most of these coaches of pre-HS kids want to keep as small a roster as possible, really, so that they don't have to deal with parents about lack of play time for their kids.  They don't want to have to deal with rotating kids in and out of the line-up and the other issues that come about with a larger roster.  Therefore, you see teams with a 12 man or fewer rosters.  Unless every kid on the team can pitch, you will run into abuse problems on a long weekend tournament.  When a team gets into a big tournament and wind up playing 8 or 10 games on a weekend, how do you manage a 12 man roster and not run into pitching problems?  

The problem here is that every parent wants their kid to play all the time.  No one understands that there are role players in baseball.  If their kid doesn't play all the time, they start spouting about "politics" and raising heck with the coach.  The coaches are dealing with this by carrying smaller rosters.  Then you run into almost having to overuse pitchers just to make it thru the tournament.

Just another thought.

I guess, until recently, I had not understood how bad high school coaching can be. My only experience was as a pitching coach on a powerhouse private school in the early nineties. Things were run well and so was the competition.

Recently, we moved from Denver to a small farming community of less than 8,000 people. This is the largest town for two hours in any direction. The high school is a 3A powerhouse and plays today in the state quarterfinals. Even though the total student body is less than 600, the school has produced four ML pitchers and several other draft picks as well as 7 state titles.

The talent level is what threw me. The high school team is a talented bunch, but the competition is poor. The team rides on the backs of two juniors who pitch practiucally all of their innings. However, they don't seem to be misused, because they generally run rule their games and don't have to throw a lot of pitches. However, i see the opponents keep kids on the mound for unbelievable numbers of pitches within an inning because they don't have enough pitchers. For example, at a game earlier in the year, I watched the home team score 14 runs in the first inning in an 19-0 shutout. the starting pitcher went the entire way for the losing team, at one point giving up 10 extra base hits in a row. he must have thrown 60-70 pitches in the first alone. I was sitting next to a parent who knew the scene very well. I commented that this must be a bad team. No. They are actually pretty good (in fact, they also made the state tournament and are in the quartefinal as I write). Well, this must have been a scrub pitcher pitching in a non-conference matchup. Nope. I checked later and this was their ace. Unbelievable. I've come to realize that at the smaller schools the pitching talent is very thin and the coaching staffs very poor many times.

It's not as big a problem as you think. For the most part, the teams that go deep in these tournaments have plaenty of pitching depth and tend to have games in pool that only go two or three innings because they dominate, leading to very few actual pitches. the bad teams are gone in two or three games and leave a lot of innings on the board. Some of the middle teams save their pitching for brackets and then get caught hardly using them at all.
For the very good teams, they can use their 7-8-9 pitchers and dominate in pool. For example, as 12's we ran into the Houston Banditos in a pool game at the Super Series Nationals. They run ruled us 20-0. Their pitcher threw two innings and a total of 18 pitches. Our pitchers however, threw two innings and 65 pitches (seven of those pitches went over the fence at 350').