HS pitcher throws 191 pitches

Last post on this topic I promise!

 Rather he is 16 or 19 the coach is still in charge....just ask him and he will tell you. What if this kid is 100% ok and throws 170 next week? will that make some coaches say (see I told you 150-200 pitches are reasonable) yes it will.

 

When I coached I never thought that I had the right to injure or take a risk at injuring a kids arm just because he played for me. I had some kid's with parents that wanted him on the bump all day, But I am the skipper and I don't want him hurt under my watch. Another thing that I wondered about is that there were probably 3 or 4 kids on the bench that would of loved to get an inning or 2 in.

Well, ignoring that you would have to prove he was acting outside the scope of his job (unless it's a private school - then you would have no such problems), you would need to not only present the recommendations but would be under the burden to show that following those recommendations was the common practice among the local community of high school coaches. That may not be too hard. Let's just say, I don't think it's a case that you would have a hard time finding a lawyer to take. The chances of winning it would be iffy, but it would be high profile and it's certainly not frivoulous. If that kid were from Colorado I might be inclined to follow him and see if there were any subsequent arm or shoulder problems. That's the ambulance-chaser in me talking.

 

Root (and anyone else out there), don't get me wrong.  I am not by any stretch of the imagination advocating that this coach should be sued.  Our society is far too litigious, IMHO.  I'm just playing devil's advocate to your arguments Root.  Not that this is a funny matter, but just having a little fun with you.

 

On the serious side, just to make my stand clear.  191 pitches in a game is FAR too many at the HS level as well as the college level, IMO.  It is probably too many for a MLB pitcher, but they get paid to pitch, so that is more open to discussion.  

 

We always talk about staying away from the coach, other than to address health concerns.  Without a doubt, this is one of those occasions that a parent talks to the coach and demands that it not happen again.  That, I think we can all agree on.

 

The most pitches my son ever threw in HS was 107.  He is a sophomore in college now.  Last year in the conference tournament he threw 119 pitches.  That is the most he has ever thrown, and I think that's all I would want him to throw.  I wouldn't be very comfortable with much over that.  But, he is a 20 year old adult and the decision is up to him.  I would certainly advise him to make sure he let the coach know when he was done (ie too tired to continue).  I've seen him do it before.  Hopefully, he'd do it again.

Perhaps this isn’t the right place for this particular question, but being as people are talking about pitch counts, it should be worth at least some thought.

 

For those of you old farts who actually got to see Eddie Feigner pitch and can testify, that sucker could throw a softball at 100MPH, and he could do it over and over and over again. So why is it that no baseball pitcher’s ever really tried to throw a baseball that way?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbbYx_FqtHU

 

 I don't mind the discussion. I'm still in shock that he threw the kid that many pitches. The coach pitched at FSU. 

Ok, I said I was done with this topic, but with the newfound info that this "coach" pitched at Florida State, I'd have to say that UNLESS I'm missing something, this "coach" has mistaken HS baseball with something much more important.  

 

"Coach" needs some perspective regarding the Importance of winning a game, versus his ability to develop a pitching staff that can come in relief.  Shame on him!

 

Edit to add :  I used the word coach with "" around it, because this person lacks the important aspects required to be called coach.  After being called husband, dad, son/daughter, being called coach comes with a big responsibility....this individual failed that responsibility.

 

 

The kid is a junior

I wonder what Coach Martin would say...?

So do you think that if the folks went to complain to the coach their son may lose playing time?

 

Coach should be publicly reprimanded.  Or fired.

 

If he were a college coach his program and results would be posted in Boyd Nations pitch count watch.

 

BTW, for those who are not aware here is a link, he hasn't updated 2014 yet.

 

http://www.boydsworld.com/data/pitchcount.html

You have it all wrong. The question we all need to be asking is did the team win? If so, that coach deserves a raise and contract extension. What is wrong with you people!?

Sarcasm sounds very familiar!

Okay, now you're just being silly. And no one likes silly around here. 

How do you know what no one likes, you just joined this site a few days ago!

Do you actually think that bothers me?  In 3 days I guess that you have made lots of friends!  Or have you been around a bit longer?

       
       


I like TPM. I guess you can't say no one likes her. This is childish. What's your deal no no?

So I'd be interested to know who thinks the coach at King University should be stoned, fired, arrested for abuse, etc....

 

Tweet from the King University Athletic Department:

BB: Cory Rhodes! Complete-game win on 142 pitches gives King the series sweep over Limestone

142 in 9 innings by an adult, is much different than 191 (49 more pitches) from a 16 year old.  

       
       

+1

Regardless, it's still too many...

When the big boys push these numbers, they have a lot of professionals standing around keeping an eye on things also. They look for things like arm slot, trunk is in position, slow bats catching up to you, catcher might see no late break as usual, or he could be just out there laboring in general. At the lower levels you just have a couple coaches saying (man he's doing great!)

Very astute doc!

Those arent efficient numbers for the big boys so they would have been pulled way before that.
I agree with bulldog, way too many pitches.

While it is a lot of pitches, even for a college or professional pitcher, it is not near as bad as a HS kid throwing 191 pitches. 

I dont recall anybody saying it was. But bad is still bad. It's funny how people can't seem to understand that. If a kid threw 230 pitches in an outing, all of the sudden people wouldn't think 191 is "that bad." 

This makes me wonder.  Why do we think 100 is the right number?  It's a nice round even number.  But where did it come from?

Anything in excess is bad.  Whether the pitcher is 16, 21 or 30 those high numbers represent too many long innings which is not healthy. 

Ever notice that after a ML guy pitches a complete game with high numbers a year later he has an injury?  Or just a very non productive year?

142 pitches over 9 innings is 15.7 pitches per inning. 191 pitches over 7 innings is 27.3 pitches per inning. That's a HUGE difference. The standard for an efficient inning is 15 pitches. So the collge kid throwing 142 pitches in a 9 inning complete game isn't really an inefficient outing.

ASMI Pitching Recommendations/Guidelines

 

http://www.asmi.org/research.p...on=positionStatement

I understand your point.  It still is considered a lot of pitches. The 191 for a 16 year old is irresponsible and you know how I feel about that.

Each pitcher is different, I always had an idea what I wanted to get out of someone based on what I knew about them. I had some little guys with rubber arms that could throw a bunch, And I had guys like my son with a cannon but he was only good for a few innings. Knowing your pitchers helped me make the best decisions, not just managing the game but looking out for their arms.

 

 Hopefully most coaches don't use a magic number that works for everyone. If I was to disclose a certain pitch count I would allow myself a little wiggle room and would say (60-75 pitches). This way if a kid is having a nice smooth effortlessly day you can run him up a little on a good outing, instead of a bad outing when things aren't falling our way.

I think I know how the Little League limits were established, and I believe that all such limits are basically set in the same way.  

 

Roughly 10 years ago, before LL had any limits, they asked a subset of local leagues to take part in a pitch counting survey.  Ours was one of the selected leagues, and the instructions were to count and record for each pitcher the date and number of pitches and innings thrown in the game.  In our league the highest number of pitches in a game was 121.

 

LL massaged all of that data from across the country into pitch count regulations. Here's how I think it was decided:

 

First, it has to be recognized that to minimize the risk of injury, the optimum number of pitches is zero.  If we consider only risk of injury, there is no sweet spot for the number of pitches.  Most of us believe that the risk of injury goes up as the number of pitches in an outing increases.  (As an aside, I'm not aware of any scientifically defensible proof of this, but it is a reasonable default position.)  So we would like to limit the number of pitches in a way that provides an acceptable level of risk, and still allows players to pitch at all.  As a practical matter, LL had to set limits that would be accepted by parents and coaches.  The process, I believe, was similar to how municipal automobile speed limits are typically set:  assume that 80 or 85% of people will drive at or below a safe speed.  Similarly, LL set the pitch count limit such that roughly 80% of outings in the survey would have been less than the limit. 

 

USA baseball came up with something similar, but with a significant difference, probably inspired by what happened after LL instituted pitch limits.  Some coaches then began to ask their pitchers to pitch up to the limit, apparently believing that LL had implied that the limit was entirely safe.  USA Baseball instead listed "guidelines" which are lower than the the LL limits.  Presumably this allows for people to go above the guideline, but doesn't encourage them to routinely pitch up to a limit.  

Three-Finger,

 

I don't doubt that the events you describe happened, but I don't think LL pulled the numbers out of a hat.  I believe that Dr. Andrews, Dr. Fleisig, and ASMI were asked for their recommendation for how pitch counts should work.  A somewhat looser version of their recommendation became the basis for the program.

You wrote "LL pulled numbers out of a hat'.  That isn't the process I described; the numbers were based on finding out what most people do.  

 

Since limits are based on keeping risk of injury to an "acceptable level", how do you think ASMI comes up with their limits/guidelines?  They may have an opinion on the level of risk versus pitch count (although they have never published such an opinion), but how can they gauge acceptable risk?  That's actually up to the participants, and ASMI (who I think provided a recommendation to USA Baseball, but AFAIK didn't for LL) has to depend on the baseball community for determining it.

 

Edited to comment: I should have said AFAIK LL didn't accept ASMI's recommendation.

The story behind the pitcher who threw 181 pitches ...

 

Scroll to bottom of article

 

http://bostonherald.com/sports...x_could_bet_the_farm

I'm pretty old school, I like to rest them before a start, and I like ice and rest after an outing, but ice won't fix stupid!

Local kid yesterday in playoff game went 14 plus innings and threw 194 pitches.  Kid was made he got taken out.  Said his arm felt great.  Bet today he doesn't feel that way.

What state?

 

Rochester HS in Washington. Coach's name is Jerry Striegel. He is also the Athletic Director.

 

 

Mr. Striegel should be relieved of both positions immediately. IMHO