Thanks for posting the link 2014Dad. If you look near the bottom of the article, you will see the Tweet from the pitcher himself. That Tweet says it all "People might criticize me for throwing 14 innings,but I'm going to do whatever it takes to win!" - this is exactly why, parents NEED to step in, and protect your child. I don't care if he is 18 years old, the Tweet shows the lack of maturity, and inability to separate common sense from emotion. In addition, a player in youth (HS) sports, will believe the "adult" in charge is looking after him. In this case the coach trumped any protection for this kid, with his desire to win at all costs coaching. And here is the best part, the catcher who caught the entire game, came in relief, and then pitched a complete game in the second half of the double header!
Some dudes, just don't possess the essentials to wear the title of "Coach", and unfortunately, many good HS coaches get lumped in with these morons.
I completely understand what you guys are saying. I am a HS coach, and we protect our pitchers a ton. We have played 29 games, and have had 1 game where a kid broke 90 pitches.
However, what if this is the highlight of this kid's athletic career? We are acting like these are all MLB prospects. What if the kid throws 76 mph, is a senior, and isn't going to college. Does that change the equation at all?
I am just wondering. I am fortunate enough to have a pitching staff where most/all of our pitchers will play college baseball. However, what if I was at a different school where the kid was "just a high school pitcher"?
Or what if the pitcher is a senior at an NAIA school, throws 83 and is the staff ace?
realteamcoach - great point, and certainly valid comments. Here's the only problem with I have with the premise. Sure, if this kid is done after this season, will not pitch again, only throws 76, etc., then I can almost agree with the - "give the kid his limelight, and memories"...let's give the kid his day in the sun.
Here is why I don't believe the coach would have acted differently if that wasn't the case (HS senior pitching his last game). He had his catcher come in relief after squatting for 14 innings, then threw that same catcher in the second game of the doubleheader, for a full 7 innings. If that info., wasn't included in the article, I'd maybe think differently, although 191 pitches is a crazy amount,, even if it is the last game for a HS senior.
Originally Posted by Back foot slider:
realteamcoach - great point, and certainly valid comments. Here's the only problem with I have with the premise. Sure, if this kid is done after this season, will not pitch again, only throws 76, etc., then I can almost agree with the - "give the kid his limelight, and memories"...let's give the kid his day in the sun.
Here is why I don't believe the coach would have acted differently if that wasn't the case (HS senior pitching his last game). He had his catcher come in relief after squatting for 14 innings, then threw that same catcher in the second game of the doubleheader, for a full 7 innings. If that info., wasn't included in the article, I'd maybe think differently, although 191 pitches is a crazy amount,, even if it is the last game for a HS senior.
That is crazy. I just now read the article so was unaware of the catcher coming in to pitch. That makes zero sense.
Originally Posted by realteamcoach:
I completely understand what you guys are saying. I am a HS coach, and we protect our pitchers a ton. We have played 29 games, and have had 1 game where a kid broke 90 pitches.
However, what if this is the highlight of this kid's athletic career? We are acting like these are all MLB prospects. What if the kid throws 76 mph, is a senior, and isn't going to college. Does that change the equation at all?
I am just wondering. I am fortunate enough to have a pitching staff where most/all of our pitchers will play college baseball. However, what if I was at a different school where the kid was "just a high school pitcher"?
Or what if the pitcher is a senior at an NAIA school, throws 83 and is the staff ace?
Fair question and I can see extending into the low 100's up to maybe 125 on the pitch count in that circumstance as a one time thing. But the young man has probably 75-80 more years to walk the planet. He will need to have more going for him the glory day he threw 200 pitches in a game no one will remember.
He may want to play catch and throw bp to his son someday and not have his arm hanging off at 37 years old. Nope as another poster said based on what "coach" did with the catcher there is habitual abuse going on there.
Just in this thread alone we have heard about HS pitchers throwing 181, 191, and 194 pitches. But when they come up with reasons for all the injuries, no one ever mentions high school teams.
Never in thousands and thousands of games have I seen a travel ball pitcher throw 190 pitches in a game, not even close to that. I will admit most all of the games I am talking about involve older kids rather than 8 to 13 year olds.
i have always been a supporter of HS baseball and the many "good" HS coaches out there. At the same time I have seen many pitchers being abused in a HS game. It happens even more during playoffs and championship games.
We knew a young sophomore that was the best pitcher in our state. He pitched every district, regional and State tournament game as a sophomore. Some of these with very little rest. By the time he was a senior his fastball lost life and velocity and his breaking ball was below average. He committed to a DI as a junior, but just never was anywhere near as good as he was as a sophomore or even a freshman. He didn't have TJ surgery, but he did suffer labrum and other shoulder surgeries.
He carried the team to the state championship game as a soph. He was never the same after that.
I'm not blaming HS baseball, I'm blaming poor judgement. Just so happens a lot of that happens in HS baseball. In fact, it happens in any type baseball. Good coaches understand that they have a responsibility towards their players/pitchers. That responsibility involves all their players no matter if he is a potential draft pick or HS is as far as he goes.
Originally Posted by PGStaff:
Just in this thread alone we have heard about HS pitchers throwing 181, 191, and 194 pitches. But when they come up with reasons for all the injuries, no one ever mentions high school teams.
Never in thousands and thousands of games have I seen a travel ball pitcher throw 190 pitches in a game, not even close to that. I will admit most all of the games I am talking about involve older kids rather than 8 to 13 year olds.
i have always been a supporter of HS baseball and the many "good" HS coaches out there. At the same time I have seen many pitchers being abused in a HS game. It happens even more during playoffs and championship games.
We knew a young sophomore that was the best pitcher in our state. He pitched every district, regional and State tournament game as a sophomore. Some of these with very little rest. By the time he was a senior his fastball lost life and velocity and his breaking ball was below average. He committed to a DI as a junior, but just never was anywhere near as good as he was as a sophomore or even a freshman. He didn't have TJ surgery, but he did suffer labrum and other shoulder surgeries.
He carried the team to the state championship game as a soph. He was never the same after that.
I'm not blaming HS baseball, I'm blaming poor judgement. Just so happens a lot of that happens in HS baseball. In fact, it happens in any type baseball. Good coaches understand that they have a responsibility towards their players/pitchers. That responsibility involves all their players no matter if he is a potential draft pick or HS is as far as he goes.
Having been involved with travel, American Legion, High School ball, etc. for over two decades both as a coach and as an owner of a sports action photography business I think I see the same thing you see. the VAST majority of overuse I see with pitchers isn't at the travel/showcase level which is getting all of the blame. It's at the youth rec and high school level. Truth is, travel teams generally are much deeper with pitchingand spread out the innings whereas rec teams and high school teams often ride one or two pitcher for an entire season because they have no depth. Back before a reliance on pitching limits, I would commonly see HS pitchers throw this many pitches and then be back on the mound a couple of days later. With rec, I would see teams pitch one kid game after game after game.
Originally Posted by realteamcoach:
I completely understand what you guys are saying. I am a HS coach, and we protect our pitchers a ton. We have played 29 games, and have had 1 game where a kid broke 90 pitches.
However, what if this is the highlight of this kid's athletic career? We are acting like these are all MLB prospects. What if the kid throws 76 mph, is a senior, and isn't going to college. Does that change the equation at all?
I am just wondering. I am fortunate enough to have a pitching staff where most/all of our pitchers will play college baseball. However, what if I was at a different school where the kid was "just a high school pitcher"?
Or what if the pitcher is a senior at an NAIA school, throws 83 and is the staff ace?
I was the prototypical good college pitcher/not a pro prospect. I have a four inch scar on my elbow, I can tell you when it's going to rain and my shoulder aches randomly throughout each day. Do I regret being competitive? No. Do I wish I wasn't in pain and discomfort so much? Yes.
The second kid is a stud and most likely will be playing college ball. Rochester is a small school and these two kids maybe there only pitchers. I agree that the kid won't know whats best for him. Its a rural area and I can see the parents not caring either.
Originally Posted by realteamcoach:
I completely understand what you guys are saying. I am a HS coach, and we protect our pitchers a ton. We have played 29 games, and have had 1 game where a kid broke 90 pitches.
However, what if this is the highlight of this kid's athletic career? We are acting like these are all MLB prospects. What if the kid throws 76 mph, is a senior, and isn't going to college. Does that change the equation at all?
I am just wondering. I am fortunate enough to have a pitching staff where most/all of our pitchers will play college baseball. However, what if I was at a different school where the kid was "just a high school pitcher"?
Or what if the pitcher is a senior at an NAIA school, throws 83 and is the staff ace?
To take this position suggests that you don't really "completely understand what you guys are saying". We're talking about 194 pitches! There is no way it's possible that anyone involved in coaching baseball can not know this is dangerous, at any age or skill level. Little League limit is 85 pitches, everyone knows that. MLB limit is 100 pitches give or take a few, and everyone knows that. We're not talking about going a little past the speed limit here, we're talking about recklessness.
The lynch mob is really riled up about this.
Let's play devil's advocate.
There are no state high school pitch limits, so the state association is not concerned about pitch counts.
The parents, the coach, and the player was not concerned. They are the only ones directly involved, not any of us.
The kid says he wasn't injured or sore. So, how 'dangerous' was it really?
A bunch of doctors get together and suggest that 100 is a nice round number and that should be the limit. Nobody really knows where that number came from.
MLB pitchers used to throw 200 pitches frequently. Now, they throw half that, and injuries are 'on the rise'.
"Want To See Baseball's Young Ace"s? Try The Operating Room!"
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/s...9996/?service=mobile
...when will they ever learn?!!
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/s...9996/?service=mobile
...when will they ever learn?!!
Originally Posted by SultanofSwat:
The lynch mob is really riled up about this.
Let's play devil's advocate.
There are no state high school pitch limits, so the state association is not concerned about pitch counts.
The parents, the coach, and the player was not concerned. They are the only ones directly involved, not any of us.
The kid says he wasn't injured or sore. So, how 'dangerous' was it really?
A bunch of doctors get together and suggest that 100 is a nice round number and that should be the limit. Nobody really knows where that number came from.
MLB pitchers used to throw 200 pitches frequently. Now, they throw half that, and injuries are on the rise.
Eric Cressey recommended yesterday on Twitter that MLB teams require an MRI of their players elbow before they are drafted. This would show that the damage is often occurring prior to professional baseball.
Originally Posted by Bulldog 19:
Originally Posted by SultanofSwat:
The lynch mob is really riled up about this.
Let's play devil's advocate.
There are no state high school pitch limits, so the state association is not concerned about pitch counts.
The parents, the coach, and the player was not concerned. They are the only ones directly involved, not any of us.
The kid says he wasn't injured or sore. So, how 'dangerous' was it really?
A bunch of doctors get together and suggest that 100 is a nice round number and that should be the limit. Nobody really knows where that number came from.
MLB pitchers used to throw 200 pitches frequently. Now, they throw half that, and injuries are on the rise.
Eric Cressey recommended yesterday on Twitter that MLB teams require an MRI of their players elbow before they are drafted. This would show that the damage is often occurring prior to professional baseball.
Or not. If not, what will MLB start using for an excuse when they can't blame travel ball?
Originally Posted by SultanofSwat:
The lynch mob is really riled up about this.
Let's play devil's advocate.
There are no state high school pitch limits, so the state association is not concerned about pitch counts.
The parents, the coach, and the player was not concerned. They are the only ones directly involved, not any of us.
The kid says he wasn't injured or sore. So, how 'dangerous' was it really?
A bunch of doctors get together and suggest that 100 is a nice round number and that should be the limit. Nobody really knows where that number came from.
MLB pitchers used to throw 200 pitches frequently. Now, they throw half that, and injuries are on the rise.
fair point. I'm still waiting for the story where the kid throws 190 pitches AND has his elbow blow up (or at least can't pitch his next start). Haven't seen it. I think it is obvious to all that throwing like this over an extended period of time is something akin to abuse, but I'm not willing to say that doing it one time is going to definitely lead to TJ surgery. However, the thought would be that coaches don't do this ONE TIME.
Bulldog - I would love to see MLB do that, and I would expect they'd pass on a lot of arms prior to draft.
Swat - I understand your devil's advocate stance, but it is flawed. First, just because parents, and player are not concerned, sometimes you just can't fix stupid. The coach, that's his profession, and he should know better.
Also, I agree that work loads were heavier previously. The big difference when folks come with that argument, was brought up yesterday during an MLB pregame show. Steve Busby (play by play guy for Rangers, and ex-MLB pitcher) was asked why he thought there were so many elbow injuries requiring TJ. He mentioned that when he pitched with the Royals, the majority of pitchers actually pitched, and very few were sitting in the 90 - mid 90 range. Sure there were a few, but nowadays, to just get a look, or scouted, you better be hitting 90 by your Jr. year of HS!....His statement was something to the effect, "there are so many young pitchers these days who throw 90, but very few were "MEANT" to throw 90". I know the HS pitcher in question was not throwing 90 MPH, but your argument was that pitchers at the pro level are injured more today, than years past.
SultanofSwat,
While I agree MOST state assns. aren’t concerned about pitch counts, there are two that do. Vt and SD.
You are entitled to you opinion, but it sure sounds like you’re living in the 60’s.
How many times do you think a ML pitcher has thrown 200 pitches in one game? I know Marichal threw 227, Spahn 201, and Ryan 235. That doesn’t seem “frequent” to me.
Originally Posted by SultanofSwat:
The lynch mob is really riled up about this.
Let's play devil's advocate.
There are no state high school pitch limits, so the state association is not concerned about pitch counts.
The parents, the coach, and the player was not concerned. They are the only ones directly involved, not any of us.
The kid says he wasn't injured or sore. So, how 'dangerous' was it really?
A bunch of doctors get together and suggest that 100 is a nice round number and that should be the limit. Nobody really knows where that number came from.
MLB pitchers used to throw 200 pitches frequently. Now, they throw half that, and injuries are on the rise.
Let's play devil's advocate.
There are no state high school pitch limits, so the state association is not concerned about pitch counts.
The parents, the coach, and the player was not concerned. They are the only ones directly involved, not any of us.
The kid says he wasn't injured or sore. So, how 'dangerous' was it really?
A bunch of doctors get together and suggest that 100 is a nice round number and that should be the limit. Nobody really knows where that number came from.
MLB pitchers used to throw 200 pitches frequently. Now, they throw half that, and injuries are on the rise.
Sorry, but I have to disagree with your thinking. As a Parent of a RHP/CF starter that had TJ surgery, the Summer after HS graduation. Red Shirted his College Freshman year, and rehabbing.
Someone of authority, someone with sound reasoning and clarity has to step up, and be the voice of reason... if only for protection from: Either overzealous Or dimwitted Coaches, Parents with their eyes on the prize, Or a young player without the intellectual, emotional maturity to see the potential risks they are placing themselves under in their foreseeable futures, in hopes of being seen, going to their dream. Div. 1 University, getting drafted...chasing their dreams of playing in the Big League. Sometimes, we need protection from the very one's that are supposed to be looking ahead, and what's in a player's best interest. Sad.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by SultanofSwat:
The lynch mob is really riled up about this.
Let's play devil's advocate.
There are no state high school pitch limits, so the state association is not concerned about pitch counts.
The parents, the coach, and the player was not concerned. They are the only ones directly involved, not any of us.
The kid says he wasn't injured or sore. So, how 'dangerous' was it really?
A bunch of doctors get together and suggest that 100 is a nice round number and that should be the limit. Nobody really knows where that number came from.
MLB pitchers used to throw 200 pitches frequently. Now, they throw half that, and injuries are on the rise.
fair point. I'm still waiting for the story where the kid throws 190 pitches AND has his elbow blow up (or at least can't pitch his next start). Haven't seen it. I think it is obvious to all that throwing like this over an extended period of time is something akin to abuse, but I'm not willing to say that doing it one time is going to definitely lead to TJ surgery. However, the thought would be that coaches don't do this ONE TIME.
I believe the Orthopedic Specialist / Surgeons exact words were:
Instabilty and Overuse in the player's formidable growing years... regarding the cause that led to our 2013's TJ surgery. And as a parent, I wouldn't wish it upon any player in their Sr. year in HS. The changes it created in his future options... going the route of: Div. II / medical redshirting as a Freshman, miles from home, not knowing anyone at college. Freshman year is hard enough, without TJ surgery rehab / redshirting thrown in. Then continuing the route, via JUCCO, and hopefully going on to a Div. I / Graduate School.
Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:
SultanofSwat,
While I agree MOST state assns. aren’t concerned about pitch counts, there are two that do. Vt and SD.
You are entitled to you opinion, but it sure sounds like you’re living in the 60’s.
How many times do you think a ML pitcher has thrown 200 pitches in one game? I know Marichal threw 227, Spahn 201, and Ryan 235. That doesn’t seem “frequent” to me.
Ryan reports that he threw several games over 200 pitches in '74 alone. I think it was a lot more common than you would think. However, it wasn't even something anyone thought about back then. The June night where Nolan threw 235, we only know about it because the Angel's pitching coach was one of the very few back then that tracked it. In the same game, Luis Tiant may have also thrown 200+ pitches. Don't know because no one kept track. It has been estimated that it was practically impossible for him to have thrown less than 180 pitches at the very minimum. The interesting thing is that this wasn't something anyone reported and said, "Wow!" It only came to light many years later after pitch counts became a big deal. It's probable that these limits were reached many, many more times than we can even guess. That wouldn't even be counting back to thefirst half of the 20th century where it was probably the norm.
Which is why I've always suspected that much of this may be gentics. Only so many people are born with a body that can withstand this type of punishment and it may be that the advent of pitch counts allowed many hard throwers to actually reach the majors before the danage caught up with them whereas 30-40 years ago they would have simply flamed out in high school.
Originally Posted by SultanofSwat:
The lynch mob is really riled up about this.
Let's play devil's advocate.
There are no state high school pitch limits, so the state association is not concerned about pitch counts. I completely agree! State associations absolutely know better than any of us, and as a result, they do not have limits! They're the smart ones, not us! And the less federal and state regulations, the better for mankind!
The parents, the coach, and the player was not concerned. They are the only ones directly involved, not any of us. Right again! Parents didn't go out there and pull the player, so they automatically approved. And the player wasn't concerned either, that young Master of the Universe who is so knowledgeable! Now the coach is backtracking a bit today, but I'm certain that's due to media pressure!
The kid says he wasn't injured or sore. So, how 'dangerous' was it really? Exactly! Every single teen is smarter than the rest of us! After all, that's what they tell us daily!!!
A bunch of doctors get together and suggest that 100 is a nice round number and that should be the limit. Nobody really knows where that number came from.Bingo again! I can't find anything that points to physicians making this recommendation, so it can't be true. There's no evidence!
MLB pitchers used to throw 200 pitches frequently. Now, they throw half that, and injuries are 'on the rise'. Batting 1.000 here. And I'm of the notion that pitchers should throw 200 pitches a day so that the rate of injuries will decrease!
Keyboards should be a privilege, not a right.
Originally Posted by Bulldog 19:
Originally Posted by SultanofSwat:
The lynch mob is really riled up about this.
Let's play devil's advocate.
There are no state high school pitch limits, so the state association is not concerned about pitch counts.
The parents, the coach, and the player was not concerned. They are the only ones directly involved, not any of us.
The kid says he wasn't injured or sore. So, how 'dangerous' was it really?
A bunch of doctors get together and suggest that 100 is a nice round number and that should be the limit. Nobody really knows where that number came from.
MLB pitchers used to throw 200 pitches frequently. Now, they throw half that, and injuries are on the rise.
Eric Cressey recommended yesterday on Twitter that MLB teams require an MRI of their players elbow before they are drafted. This would show that the damage is often occurring prior to professional baseball.
I'm not sure they don't do that if they suspect something. I know when R.A. Dickey was drafted, they didn't like the way he let his arm dangle in a team picture for Team USA and when tested found that he had been born without a UCL. Strange that this bothered them since he had pitched just fine without one (good enough that they wanted to draft him in the first round).
I am a parent of one of those possible kids.He plays for one of those coaches that give the HS coach a bad name.While I do understand the kid that throws 76 throwing too many pitches because its senior year and he joining the navy.I don't know any of those kids.Those kids are allowed to even pitch where I live.I have a 2016 that when its turn to pitch no matter what is going on in my life I HAVE to be there.His first yr. on V he was allowed to throw 120 and 132 pitches on back to back starts(freshman).I had to say something.This year the only game I missed was two days after his start of 85 pitches he was brought in on TWO days rest and asked to pitch with a 4 run lead.This "kid" throws 90-91.Its very possible baseball and grades will get him a college degree.At least that's what the college pitching coaches/recruiters that come to watch him pitch think.Also this year I have witnessed a freshman throw 111 pitches in 5 innings.Twice one of our lefties coming in to relieve in non save situations with TWO days rest after throwing complete games..I have also watched as one of our seniors holding his pitching elbow with his glove between pitches while having to keep pitching for two more outs.On another thread here someone posted a link that the article stated that 50% of the damage being done to pitchers arms is in high school.From my view its an absolute truth.One would think if there were one place that our youngs arms would be safe is at school.Thats were the people are that understand how important getting a good education can be.How important it can be to get that education for free or a greatly reduce cost.I could go on and on about how things are here.Most reading this would think "can't be true" Oh "hes one of those parents".Well I am not.What I am is one of those parents that has had/is having the enjoyment of watching high school baseball completely taken away from me.I know these kids have coached some.My stomach is in knots just wondering whats next?
Originally Posted by joemktg:
Keyboards should be a privilege, not a right.
A Keyboard Czar! Good idea. Keep the masses under control.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Ryan reports that he threw several games over 200 pitches in '74 alone. I think it was a lot more common than you would think. However, it wasn't even something anyone thought about back then. The June night where Nolan threw 235, we only know about it because the Angel's pitching coach was one of the very few back then that tracked it. In the same game, Luis Tiant may have also thrown 200+ pitches. Don't know because no one kept track. It has been estimated that it was practically impossible for him to have thrown less than 180 pitches at the very minimum. The interesting thing is that this wasn't something anyone reported and said, "Wow!" It only came to light many years later after pitch counts became a big deal. It's probable that these limits were reached many, many more times than we can even guess. That wouldn't even be counting back to thefirst half of the 20th century where it was probably the norm.
Well, I don’t know that I’d trust Nolan Rylan’s memory any more than I’d trust mine about something that wasn’t tracked. I suspect no one said WOW because there was a lot of ignorance about such things back then. Back in the day, there were no batting helmets either, but I don’t hear anyone suggesting going back to those days. 
Which is why I've always suspected that much of this may be gentics. Only so many people are born with a body that can withstand this type of punishment and it may be that the advent of pitch counts allowed many hard throwers to actually reach the majors before the danage caught up with them whereas 30-40 years ago they would have simply flamed out in high school.
I don’t know if its that more people couldn’t take that kind of punishment as much as there aren’t a lot of people willing to do it.
Originally Posted by SultanofSwat:
Originally Posted by joemktg:
Keyboards should be a privilege, not a right.
A Keyboard Czar! Good idea. Keep the masses under control.
Pretty sure that Jonathan Swift is laughing from the great beyond.
Originally Posted by Stats4Gnats:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Ryan reports that he threw several games over 200 pitches in '74 alone. I think it was a lot more common than you would think. However, it wasn't even something anyone thought about back then. The June night where Nolan threw 235, we only know about it because the Angel's pitching coach was one of the very few back then that tracked it. In the same game, Luis Tiant may have also thrown 200+ pitches. Don't know because no one kept track. It has been estimated that it was practically impossible for him to have thrown less than 180 pitches at the very minimum. The interesting thing is that this wasn't something anyone reported and said, "Wow!" It only came to light many years later after pitch counts became a big deal. It's probable that these limits were reached many, many more times than we can even guess. That wouldn't even be counting back to thefirst half of the 20th century where it was probably the norm.
Well, I don’t know that I’d trust Nolan Rylan’s memory any more than I’d trust mine about something that wasn’t tracked. I suspect no one said WOW because there was a lot of ignorance about such things back then. Back in the day, there were no batting helmets either, but I don’t hear anyone suggesting going back to those days.
Which is why I've always suspected that much of this may be gentics. Only so many people are born with a body that can withstand this type of punishment and it may be that the advent of pitch counts allowed many hard throwers to actually reach the majors before the danage caught up with them whereas 30-40 years ago they would have simply flamed out in high school.
I don’t know if its that more people couldn’t take that kind of punishment as much as there aren’t a lot of people willing to do it.
Using Nolan Ryan as the basis for anything related to pitching is crazy. He was a once in a multiple lifetimes freak. David Clyde (insert 5,000-10,000 others or more) is a better and FAR more apt analogy.
The 4 man rotation, 40 starts a year guy died with Richard Nixon's presidency. And when Dr. Andrews saved Tommy John's career a few years later another door was opened to the scientific and medical analysis of what the arm/shoulder can endure - safely.
It is not 60'6" and is something that is the same for everybody but if you think rationally that 90+% of people fit inside the center of the bell curve - it is the best foundation available for letting players finish their playing days in one piece.
As far as a pitcher with any talent for beyond HS - The parent must step up. Coach against 16/17 year old is no match. If the parent is wrapped up in winning the district, region or whatever...shame on them. Their son's health is infinitely worth more than any HS win will ever be.
Proudhesmine,
Proves my earlier point! I know you aren't One of Those parents,
But, like the MLB Pitcher that instructed our son, whom he wouldn't let him throw a CB until he said so, when his body was developed enough to take on that added stress to his arm. Pitching is already an unnatural movement on an arm. He said the majority of Jr/ HS Coaches are more concerned with their team's record and championships, than whether a player will even have an arm left by the end of his HS career. Thus, our son developed a very good CU, and good FB. He said that was all he needed at that point. A former Pitcher, and now a Coach, from the same HS as our son, and one of his Travel Team Coaches, personally sought us out, to warn us about this. He was looking at having his 3rd surgery. Ended his College career. Told he wouldn't be abe to raise his arm above his head by 30-40 without surgery. Told us as parents to stick to our guns and not give in on the CB. We followed the advice we were given. Cost our son, held done to JV til he was a Jr. Then was a Starting Ace Pitcher/ and Closer his last 2 years, to extremes and overuse, without adequate rest between starts. Didn't help that this school's HC's also coached "their MANDATORY - average Legion Travel Teams." Son had to turn down 4 Top Level Chicago Area elite Travel Teams to play their Legion Ball.
Live and Learn....
Proves my earlier point! I know you aren't One of Those parents,
But, like the MLB Pitcher that instructed our son, whom he wouldn't let him throw a CB until he said so, when his body was developed enough to take on that added stress to his arm. Pitching is already an unnatural movement on an arm. He said the majority of Jr/ HS Coaches are more concerned with their team's record and championships, than whether a player will even have an arm left by the end of his HS career. Thus, our son developed a very good CU, and good FB. He said that was all he needed at that point. A former Pitcher, and now a Coach, from the same HS as our son, and one of his Travel Team Coaches, personally sought us out, to warn us about this. He was looking at having his 3rd surgery. Ended his College career. Told he wouldn't be abe to raise his arm above his head by 30-40 without surgery. Told us as parents to stick to our guns and not give in on the CB. We followed the advice we were given. Cost our son, held done to JV til he was a Jr. Then was a Starting Ace Pitcher/ and Closer his last 2 years, to extremes and overuse, without adequate rest between starts. Didn't help that this school's HC's also coached "their MANDATORY - average Legion Travel Teams." Son had to turn down 4 Top Level Chicago Area elite Travel Teams to play their Legion Ball.
Live and Learn....
I would add that I think it is no coincidence that pitchers throwing long toss as a regular regimine has become commonplace in the past 20 years. Some of the same people groaning and moaning about pitch counts have nothing but good things to say about having pitchers throw foul-pole-to-foul-pole on a regular basis.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
I would add that I think it is no coincidence that pitchers throwing long toss as a regular regimine has become commonplace in the past 20 years. Some of the same people groaning and moaning about pitch counts have nothing but good things to say about having pitchers throw foul-pole-to-foul-pole on a regular basis.
Exactly! And we should get back to Eskimo Pies, Yoo-hoo, Wonder Bread and Wheaties. And while we're at it: all Moms should immediately STOP BREAST FEEDING and rely solely on Gerber's Baby Food!!!
Originally Posted by Shelby:
"Want To See Baseball's Young Ace"s? Try The Operating Room!"
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/s...9996/?service=mobile
...when will they ever learn?!!
http://m.theglobeandmail.com/s...9996/?service=mobile
...when will they ever learn?!!
Notice , though, that this article is all over the place as to the "why?" Every possible cause is blamed. Brian Wilson, however, put a lot of it in the correct light:
“I guess I can’t compare the game to the way it was played before, but now people are getting Tommy John with the slightest tear,” Wilson said last week. “I have to believe that people would be pitching through the slightest tear three decades ago. Now you don’t pitch with pain. It’s very precautious.”
Which, by the way, I think is a great way to treat these injuries. However, the point is that I thin the idea there is an "epidemic" is a fiction. Truth is, time on the dl for arm injuries has not increased over the past 15 years. Tommy John surgeries have, indeed increased, but actual injuries have not - just the way we deal with them. This is, I think, a good thing. I'm just tired of hearing about how TJ surgeries are on the rise and we have to figure out what the problem is. There is no problem. At least no new problem. Pitching is a stressful activity and pitchers have been experiencing arm injuries as long as there has been baseball. I'm all for new and improved methods (including pitch counts) to protect arms, but to imply there is a sudden surge in injuries just because we now choose to treat those injuries is absurd logic.
Originally Posted by joemktg:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
I would add that I think it is no coincidence that pitchers throwing long toss as a regular regimine has become commonplace in the past 20 years. Some of the same people groaning and moaning about pitch counts have nothing but good things to say about having pitchers throw foul-pole-to-foul-pole on a regular basis.
Exactly! And we should get back to Eskimo Pies, Yoo-hoo, Wonder Bread and Wheaties. And while we're at it: all Moms should immediately STOP BREAST FEEDING and rely solely on Gerber's Baby Food!!!
I'm afraid your sarcasm went right over my head and wth problem you got with Eskimo Pies??!!
Originally Posted by Shelby:
Proudhesmine,
Proves my earlier point! I know you aren't One of Those parents,
But, like the MLB Pitcher that instructed our son, whom he wouldn't let him throw a CB until he said so, when his body was developed enough to take on that added stress to his arm. Pitching is already an unnatural movement on an arm. He said the majority of Jr/ HS Coaches are more concerned with their team's record and championships, than whether a player will even have an arm left by the end of his HS career. Thus, our son developed a very good CU, and good FB. He said that was all he needed at that point. A former Pitcher, and now a Coach, from the same HS as our son, and one of his Travel Team Coaches, personally sought us out, to warn us about this. He was looking at having his 3rd surgery. Ended his College career. Told he wouldn't be abe to raise his arm above his head by 30-40 without surgery. Told us as parents to stick to our guns and not give in on the CB. We followed the advice we were given. Cost our son, held done to JV til he was a Jr. Then was a Starting Ace Pitcher/ and Closer his last 2 years, to extremes and overuse, without adequate rest between starts. Didn't help that this school's HC's also coached "their MANDATORY - average Legion Travel Teams." Son had to turn down 4 Top Level Chicago Area elite Travel Teams to play their Legion Ball.
Live and Learn....
Proves my earlier point! I know you aren't One of Those parents,
But, like the MLB Pitcher that instructed our son, whom he wouldn't let him throw a CB until he said so, when his body was developed enough to take on that added stress to his arm. Pitching is already an unnatural movement on an arm. He said the majority of Jr/ HS Coaches are more concerned with their team's record and championships, than whether a player will even have an arm left by the end of his HS career. Thus, our son developed a very good CU, and good FB. He said that was all he needed at that point. A former Pitcher, and now a Coach, from the same HS as our son, and one of his Travel Team Coaches, personally sought us out, to warn us about this. He was looking at having his 3rd surgery. Ended his College career. Told he wouldn't be abe to raise his arm above his head by 30-40 without surgery. Told us as parents to stick to our guns and not give in on the CB. We followed the advice we were given. Cost our son, held done to JV til he was a Jr. Then was a Starting Ace Pitcher/ and Closer his last 2 years, to extremes and overuse, without adequate rest between starts. Didn't help that this school's HC's also coached "their MANDATORY - average Legion Travel Teams." Son had to turn down 4 Top Level Chicago Area elite Travel Teams to play their Legion Ball.
Live and Learn....
We are a long way from ultimate arm health, but the current research has revealed basically only two things:
1) Overuse is definitely a contributing factor; and
2) the curve ball is definitely NOT a contributing factor.
As a member of the lynch mob, I believe that there came a point in this game where the coach knew that the potential for injury was increasing as this young man continued to pitch and then made a choice that winning the game was more important. Sometimes players have to be protected from themselves and so, you can't ask a pitcher if they feel good and can throw an inning or two more. Sure, this one has a "happy ending." So, all is good according to some and let it be. You bet until that time that doesn't make the newspaper where the kid felt the pop and knows something is real wrong. That won't make the paper.
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by Shelby:
Proudhesmine,
Proves my earlier point! I know you aren't One of Those parents,
But, like the MLB Pitcher that instructed our son, whom he wouldn't let him throw a CB until he said so, when his body was developed enough to take on that added stress to his arm. Pitching is already an unnatural movement on an arm. He said the majority of Jr/ HS Coaches are more concerned with their team's record and championships, than whether a player will even have an arm left by the end of his HS career. Thus, our son developed a very good CU, and good FB. He said that was all he needed at that point. A former Pitcher, and now a Coach, from the same HS as our son, and one of his Travel Team Coaches, personally sought us out, to warn us about this. He was looking at having his 3rd surgery. Ended his College career. Told he wouldn't be abe to raise his arm above his head by 30-40 without surgery. Told us as parents to stick to our guns and not give in on the CB. We followed the advice we were given. Cost our son, held done to JV til he was a Jr. Then was a Starting Ace Pitcher/ and Closer his last 2 years, to extremes and overuse, without adequate rest between starts. Didn't help that this school's HC's also coached "their MANDATORY - average Legion Travel Teams." Son had to turn down 4 Top Level Chicago Area elite Travel Teams to play their Legion Ball.
Live and Learn....
Proves my earlier point! I know you aren't One of Those parents,
But, like the MLB Pitcher that instructed our son, whom he wouldn't let him throw a CB until he said so, when his body was developed enough to take on that added stress to his arm. Pitching is already an unnatural movement on an arm. He said the majority of Jr/ HS Coaches are more concerned with their team's record and championships, than whether a player will even have an arm left by the end of his HS career. Thus, our son developed a very good CU, and good FB. He said that was all he needed at that point. A former Pitcher, and now a Coach, from the same HS as our son, and one of his Travel Team Coaches, personally sought us out, to warn us about this. He was looking at having his 3rd surgery. Ended his College career. Told he wouldn't be abe to raise his arm above his head by 30-40 without surgery. Told us as parents to stick to our guns and not give in on the CB. We followed the advice we were given. Cost our son, held done to JV til he was a Jr. Then was a Starting Ace Pitcher/ and Closer his last 2 years, to extremes and overuse, without adequate rest between starts. Didn't help that this school's HC's also coached "their MANDATORY - average Legion Travel Teams." Son had to turn down 4 Top Level Chicago Area elite Travel Teams to play their Legion Ball.
Live and Learn....
We are a long way from ultimate arm health, but the current research has revealed basically only two things:
1) Overuse is definitely a contributing factor; and
2) the curve ball is definitely NOT a contributing factor.
I disagree on the CB. I realize that it's a heated topic, like the Chicken & the Egg.
Not all Travel Ball Coaches. (Dad's) or JHS / HS Coaches know how to properly throw a mechanically accurate CB, or have a medical Trainers ability to know when the improper mechanics are putting added stress on an undeveloped / or developing Pitchers arm, when it is fatigued, etc. And even the one's that do know how instruct in how to throw a proper CB, can't / don't watch 100% of a Pitcher throwing in practice or live in a game, to see whether or not a Pitcher is reverting back to improper mechanics, especially when fatigued or frustrated with control.
Originally Posted by CoachB25:
As a member of the lynch mob, I believe that there came a point in this game where the coach knew that the potential for injury was increasing as this young man continued to pitch and then made a choice that winning the game was more important. Sometimes players have to be protected from themselves and so, you can't ask a pitcher if they feel good and can throw an inning or two more. Sure, this one has a "happy ending." So, all is good according to some and let it be. You bet until that time that doesn't make the newspaper where the kid felt the pop and knows something is real wrong. That won't make the paper.
Exactly!!
Originally Posted by Shelby:
Originally Posted by roothog66:
Originally Posted by Shelby:
Proudhesmine,
Proves my earlier point! I know you aren't One of Those parents,
But, like the MLB Pitcher that instructed our son, whom he wouldn't let him throw a CB until he said so, when his body was developed enough to take on that added stress to his arm. Pitching is already an unnatural movement on an arm. He said the majority of Jr/ HS Coaches are more concerned with their team's record and championships, than whether a player will even have an arm left by the end of his HS career. Thus, our son developed a very good CU, and good FB. He said that was all he needed at that point. A former Pitcher, and now a Coach, from the same HS as our son, and one of his Travel Team Coaches, personally sought us out, to warn us about this. He was looking at having his 3rd surgery. Ended his College career. Told he wouldn't be abe to raise his arm above his head by 30-40 without surgery. Told us as parents to stick to our guns and not give in on the CB. We followed the advice we were given. Cost our son, held done to JV til he was a Jr. Then was a Starting Ace Pitcher/ and Closer his last 2 years, to extremes and overuse, without adequate rest between starts. Didn't help that this school's HC's also coached "their MANDATORY - average Legion Travel Teams." Son had to turn down 4 Top Level Chicago Area elite Travel Teams to play their Legion Ball.
Live and Learn....
Proves my earlier point! I know you aren't One of Those parents,
But, like the MLB Pitcher that instructed our son, whom he wouldn't let him throw a CB until he said so, when his body was developed enough to take on that added stress to his arm. Pitching is already an unnatural movement on an arm. He said the majority of Jr/ HS Coaches are more concerned with their team's record and championships, than whether a player will even have an arm left by the end of his HS career. Thus, our son developed a very good CU, and good FB. He said that was all he needed at that point. A former Pitcher, and now a Coach, from the same HS as our son, and one of his Travel Team Coaches, personally sought us out, to warn us about this. He was looking at having his 3rd surgery. Ended his College career. Told he wouldn't be abe to raise his arm above his head by 30-40 without surgery. Told us as parents to stick to our guns and not give in on the CB. We followed the advice we were given. Cost our son, held done to JV til he was a Jr. Then was a Starting Ace Pitcher/ and Closer his last 2 years, to extremes and overuse, without adequate rest between starts. Didn't help that this school's HC's also coached "their MANDATORY - average Legion Travel Teams." Son had to turn down 4 Top Level Chicago Area elite Travel Teams to play their Legion Ball.
Live and Learn....
We are a long way from ultimate arm health, but the current research has revealed basically only two things:
1) Overuse is definitely a contributing factor; and
2) the curve ball is definitely NOT a contributing factor.
I disagree on the CB. I realize that it's a heated topic, like the Chicken & the Egg.
Not all Travel Ball Coaches. (Dad's) or JHS / HS Coaches know how to properly throw a mechanically accurate CB, or have a medical Trainers ability to know when the improper mechanics are putting added stress on an undeveloped / or developing Pitchers arm, when it is fatigued, etc. And even the one's that do know how instruct in how to throw a proper CB, can't / don't watch 100% of a Pitcher throwing in practice or live in a game, to see whether or not a Pitcher is reverting back to improper mechanics, especially when fatigued or frustrated with control.
Throwing fatigued is a problem - maybe THE problem. The curve, however, is not. The arguments of, "well, at least a "proper Curve" is ok" is rubbish. The studies were doene on "self-reported" curves which would include "improperly thrown" curves (not that anyone can even agree what that means). If improper curves were bad, but anothe mechanism OK, this would have tilted all of these studies toward a determination of "curveball bad" not against it. There is not ONE study done that can coorelate curveballs with injuries and that, indeed was the working hypothesis of these studies. However, you still har people saying teaching a kid a curve is child abuse. Why? One of those baseball myths that seemed to make some sense and many can't let go of.
Interesting tweet today from the pitcher:
People just don't understand. I'm not a ace pitcher, I'm a infielder who pitches every now and then. Not a prospect ruining there career
— Dylan Fosnacht (@DFosnacht5) May 15, 2014
Not sure whether I find that inculpatory or exculpatory.
Shelby,
I think that’s a more accurate presentation of current thinking by those who know, than “the curve ball is definitely NOT a contributing factor”. Now if he’d said: “a properly thrown curve ball shouldn’t be any more harmful than a properly thrown fastball”, I’d accept that as well. But I’m afraid everything about pitching is a contributing factor to arm jeopardy.