Workout and game pop times are different. But you either compare workout times or game pop times. You do not compare high school workout times to professional game pop times.
One thing for sure... Professional catchers and high DI level catchers have quicker "game" pop times than most catchers below that level.
No matter how you look at it... all runners are not equal in the time it takes them to get to 2B. All catchers are not equal in the pop times to 2B. The quicker the catcher is (pop times)... The better chance he has of throwing out the runners that get there the fastest.
Throwing out slow runners is not very important in pro or high level college. Those guys seldom try to steal bases. Accuracy is very important... The tag is very important... But if you can't get it there on time... Accuracy and the tag mean nothing!
The pop time means everything. That is why every scout in baseball times it! They are not interested in how many "slow" runners a catcher throws out. They want to know if you can get it there quick enough to throw out those who actually steal bases at the highest level.
Here's some advice to improve your skills at the toughest position on the field.
1) Get a good catching coach.
2) Buy a wild dog
3) Put some meat on 2nd base
4) Release the wild dog.
5) Practice throwing the wild dog out.
A simple - yet effective - practice technique.
As PG stated - nobody cares about your pop times - they only care about whether you throw the dog out - and throwing the lumbering elephant out doesnt mean anything.
1) Get a good catching coach.
2) Buy a wild dog
3) Put some meat on 2nd base
4) Release the wild dog.
5) Practice throwing the wild dog out.
A simple - yet effective - practice technique.
As PG stated - nobody cares about your pop times - they only care about whether you throw the dog out - and throwing the lumbering elephant out doesnt mean anything.
quote:Here's some advice to improve your skills at the toughest position on the field.
1) Get a good catching coach.
2) Buy a wild dog
3) Put some meat on 2nd base
4) Release the wild dog.
5) Practice throwing the wild dog out.
A simple - yet effective - practice technique.
ha ha that's pretty good
i have seen accurate one hoopers get guys out on second. Most steals are on the pitcher. Catcher can have best pop time under 2 secs. but if pitcher time isn't down it makes no differance what pop time is or how accurate throw is
drill
i guess we should ask what is a good pitch time to catcher, we all have to work togather.
drill
i guess we should ask what is a good pitch time to catcher, we all have to work togather.
The catchers pop time is the part that the catcher controls. The guys who can get it there on the money consistently in the 1.9 to 2.00 range are BETTER than the guys who get it there 2.2 to 2.3.
Consider that .2 is pretty much a full running stride difference in time.
If the runner gets to 2B in 3.5 seconds and the pitcher is 1.5 seconds, only one of the above catchers has any chance at all!
Consider that .2 is pretty much a full running stride difference in time.
If the runner gets to 2B in 3.5 seconds and the pitcher is 1.5 seconds, only one of the above catchers has any chance at all!
The one thing we have no info on is tag time. Just how long does it take a fielder to catch a ball head high and get his glove to the base. Or shoulder high, or waist high. What about a ball to the left or right.
Whatever the time is, it should be added on to a catchers pop time, as the race is to the bag, not the fielders glove.
From what I have seen, the true test of a catchers ability to throw out runners is determined late in close games.
If it's the 9th inning in a tie game and the other team gets a runner on first, this is the moment the catcher needs to be fast and accurate. This is the time that pitchers focus more on holding runners close so stolen bases late in a game are usually on the catcher. Inaccurate catchers with a big tag time added onto their pop time will be exposed when these situations come up during the season.
Whatever the time is, it should be added on to a catchers pop time, as the race is to the bag, not the fielders glove.
From what I have seen, the true test of a catchers ability to throw out runners is determined late in close games.
If it's the 9th inning in a tie game and the other team gets a runner on first, this is the moment the catcher needs to be fast and accurate. This is the time that pitchers focus more on holding runners close so stolen bases late in a game are usually on the catcher. Inaccurate catchers with a big tag time added onto their pop time will be exposed when these situations come up during the season.
At the very highest level they all get the tag down quickly. The pitchers all get the ball to the catcher fairly quickly. The difference - the pop times! We can't blame the catchers skills for the things he has no control over... Tag times and pitchers time to the catcher.
The pop time is what it is... The quicker you can accurately get the ball to 2B the better you are! The rest is all up to something other than the catcher's ability!
The pop time is what it is... The quicker you can accurately get the ball to 2B the better you are! The rest is all up to something other than the catcher's ability!
Key word being "accurately"
A Pop time of 1.7 does nothing if you are hitting the umpire in the head with it.
Speed - without skill - is garbage.
A Pop time of 1.7 does nothing if you are hitting the umpire in the head with it.
Speed - without skill - is garbage.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
At the very highest level they all get the tag down quickly. The pitchers all get the ball to the catcher fairly quickly. The difference - the pop times! We can't blame the catchers skills for the things he has no control over... Tag times and pitchers time to the catcher.
The pop time is what it is... The quicker you can accurately get the ball to 2B the better you are! The rest is all up to something other than the catcher's ability!
I agree completely...either a catcher can throw or he can't. If you aren't able to get the ball to second quickly, it doesn't matter what the pitcher does or how quick the tag is.
If the runner is 3.3 or 3.4... nothing matters more than speed. Accuracy doesn't metter if you can't get it there in time.
The 2.3 catcher has no chance, the 1.8 catcher might accidently throw it accurately! At least he has the ability that will give him a chance based on his pop time!
Accuracy is no good if it is too late to get the quick guys. Obviously the slower the pitcher is, the less accurate the throw is and the slower the tag is... the more difficult it is to throw out the runner. But the only ability that the catcher controls is his pop time. That part doesn't change because the pitcher is slow or fast or the receiver is slow with the tag.
The 2.3 catcher has no chance, the 1.8 catcher might accidently throw it accurately! At least he has the ability that will give him a chance based on his pop time!
Accuracy is no good if it is too late to get the quick guys. Obviously the slower the pitcher is, the less accurate the throw is and the slower the tag is... the more difficult it is to throw out the runner. But the only ability that the catcher controls is his pop time. That part doesn't change because the pitcher is slow or fast or the receiver is slow with the tag.
You can also ALWAYS improve your accuracy, but it is very hard to improve your pop time once you reach a certain level. Either you have a good arm or you don't to some extent. Yes, there is some room for arm strength improvement and room to improve the quickness of your feet, but it is much harder than having those and improving accuracy.
Is this thread running simultaneously on two different forums, this and the General forum?
While 2.0 is the standard all HS catchers want to strive to acheive, there are some out there who are considerably better than this. We have a couple of the top class of 2009 catchers in the country in our area, Max Stassi and Andrew Susac. Both are early commits, Stassi to UCLA and Susac to Oregon State. One of the main things they each do that seperates them from almost everyone else is shut down the running game. I haven't gotten any recent times on Stassi, but last year he was consistently in the 1.9s in game situations. Susac was clocked as low as 1.84 by Perfect Game in a showcase game, throwing out a runner. This year, Susac has risen to a whole new level, consistently under 1.95 and often in the 1.8s in games. Last week, in a high school playoff game that went 15 innings, Susac went 6 for 6.....not at the plate, but in throwing out runners at second base. At another playoff game tonight, I was sitting with a pitcher who plays for a Pac-10 team, and we got to talking about Susac. His opinion, after watching this entire Pac-10 season, was that Susac would be the starter, right now, for any team in the Pac-10. He felt that he's better than any catcher in the Pac-10 at this time. That's pretty high praise for a high school junior!
While 2.0 is the standard all HS catchers want to strive to acheive, there are some out there who are considerably better than this. We have a couple of the top class of 2009 catchers in the country in our area, Max Stassi and Andrew Susac. Both are early commits, Stassi to UCLA and Susac to Oregon State. One of the main things they each do that seperates them from almost everyone else is shut down the running game. I haven't gotten any recent times on Stassi, but last year he was consistently in the 1.9s in game situations. Susac was clocked as low as 1.84 by Perfect Game in a showcase game, throwing out a runner. This year, Susac has risen to a whole new level, consistently under 1.95 and often in the 1.8s in games. Last week, in a high school playoff game that went 15 innings, Susac went 6 for 6.....not at the plate, but in throwing out runners at second base. At another playoff game tonight, I was sitting with a pitcher who plays for a Pac-10 team, and we got to talking about Susac. His opinion, after watching this entire Pac-10 season, was that Susac would be the starter, right now, for any team in the Pac-10. He felt that he's better than any catcher in the Pac-10 at this time. That's pretty high praise for a high school junior!
Most - if not all - catchers at the higher levels (College and Pros) - have strong arms and quick releases. That goes without saying and they wouldnt be there if they didnt.
The thing that seperates the really good ones from the average ones is how quickly they can combine their throwing skills with accuracy.
Throwing quick and hard wont get the guy out if the throw isnt on the spot.
The thing that seperates the really good ones from the average ones is how quickly they can combine their throwing skills with accuracy.
Throwing quick and hard wont get the guy out if the throw isnt on the spot.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
At the very highest level they all get the tag down quickly. The pitchers all get the ball to the catcher fairly quickly. The difference - the pop times! We can't blame the catchers skills for the things he has no control over... Tag times and pitchers time to the catcher.
The pop time is what it is... The quicker you can accurately get the ball to 2B the better you are! The rest is all up to something other than the catcher's ability!
PG, it seems to me that you don't see the difference between a catcher who puts it on the bag and the catcher who bounces it in or throws it 3 feet left. Tag time is lost time. And that lost time is the catcher's fault. That fact seems pretty obvious to me. The catcher who can consistently keep tag times to a minimum or eliminate them completely is the catcher of choice. If, at the highest level, all middle infielders tag quickly and all pitchers get it to the plate quickly(your words), than all catchers at the highest level have sufficient pop times to get it to 2nd base quickly. The key question becomes, how close to 2nd base.
Many steals are up in the air until we see where the catcher has thrown the ball. An accurate throw versus an inaccurate throw is usually the difference between safe and out. How many times have we heard,'A good throw would have had him.'
Before we get to the catcher in a steal situation there are a number of things out the catchers control
01-- how well the pitcher holds the runner on at first
02-- how quick the pitcher is to the plate
03-- what pitch is thrown---is it off speed?
04-- location of the pitch when caught by the catcher
Basically all of the above have to be near perfect so a catcher can throw out the runner
A 1.8 pop time won't mean beans if the runner gets a great jump, the pitcher is slow to the plate and the pitch is in a bad location ie--down and inside
Throwing out a runner is a "team" effort between the pitcher , catcher and infielder taking the throw
01-- how well the pitcher holds the runner on at first
02-- how quick the pitcher is to the plate
03-- what pitch is thrown---is it off speed?
04-- location of the pitch when caught by the catcher
Basically all of the above have to be near perfect so a catcher can throw out the runner
A 1.8 pop time won't mean beans if the runner gets a great jump, the pitcher is slow to the plate and the pitch is in a bad location ie--down and inside
Throwing out a runner is a "team" effort between the pitcher , catcher and infielder taking the throw
quote:PG, it seems to me that you don't see the difference between a catcher who puts it on the bag and the catcher who bounces it in or throws it 3 feet left.
Dear old Dad,
What did I say that caused you to see it that way?
Every person in the world, even those who don't follow baseball, can easily see that throwing accuracy is very important. Even me!
The difference is... Accuracy doesn't mean much unless the ball gets there on time. Same thing holds true for an infielder throwing to 1B or an outfielder throwing out a runner trying to score. Obviously getting it there accurately is important.
quote:PG, it seems to me that you don't see the difference between a catcher who puts it on the bag and the catcher who bounces it in or throws it 3 feet left.
Maybe it's just me, but D.O.D. do you have any idea how condescending that sounds? Do you know who PG Staff is? I'll bet he has seen more catchers throw down to 2nd in the last 2 months than you have seen in your lifetime!
Oh, yeah, PG Staff sees no difference between an accurate throw and one that is three feet wide. give us a break!
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
A 1.8 pop time won't mean beans if the runner gets a great jump, the pitcher is slow to the plate and the pitch is in a bad location ie--down and inside
If I can find a catcher with a game 1.8 to 2b, and have a RHP who is 1.2 sec on a breaking pitch, mathematically the defense is odds on for 1 SBA the rest of the entire game.
Well, heck, Bear .....
If I can find a runner who is 2.7 from break to 2nd, he can steal at will!
The point being, 1.8/1.2 combos are as rare as a baserunner who can outrun it!
If I can find a runner who is 2.7 from break to 2nd, he can steal at will!
The point being, 1.8/1.2 combos are as rare as a baserunner who can outrun it!
quote:Originally posted by Rob Kremer:quote:PG, it seems to me that you don't see the difference between a catcher who puts it on the bag and the catcher who bounces it in or throws it 3 feet left.
Maybe it's just me, but D.O.D. do you have any idea how condescending that sounds?
Rob, I see what you mean. I will reword it to say "PG, it seems to me that you make no distinction between a catcher who puts it on the bag and the catcher who bounces it in or throws it 3 feet left." I don't want to insult anyone here, just make my point.
From PG's comment, which I quoted, he seemed to me to discount tag time as something that is within the catchers control. I disagree. And I just don't understand the logic that the pop time is enough of a measurement to determine which catcher is better at throwing out runners.
The pop time can give scouts and/or coaches a starting point to work from, but the better pop time doesn't always translate into the best chance to throw a runner out.
No matter how you slice it, pop times do not measure accuracy in any way.
I do agree that if a coach only wants catchers with a 2.0 or better pop time, the system in place now will give him the info he needs. But the catcher that got passed over because of a 2.05 pop time may be much better at throwing out runners than the 1.95 guy that the coach wanted. Why? Because accuracy greatly affects the time it takes to get the ball from the catchers mitt to the bag. And that is the real measurement of importance, not the pop time.
Quote from PGStaff,
Dear old Dad,
What did I say that caused you to see it that way?
PG, you said, "At the very highest level they all get the tag down quickly. The pitchers all get the ball to the catcher fairly quickly. The difference - the pop times! We can't blame the catchers skills for the things he has no control over... Tag times and pitchers time to the catcher.
I say, the catcher does have control over tag times.
The pop time is what it is... The quicker you can accurately get the ball to 2B the better you are! The rest is all up to something other than the catcher's ability!
I say, The pop time only measures how quickly one gets the ball to 2nd base, not how quickly and accurately one can.
It would be interesting to measure the catchers pop times at a PG showcase, then have them throw to 2nd base again but the stopwatch doesn't stop until the fielder touches the bag with his glove. I wonder if the same catchers would still have the best times. It might prove to be an interesting study. PG, you would be the first one measuring the pop to pop to pop time and who knows, it might become the new way of measuring pop times.
Ok, we understand that if there are two guys that throw 1.8, the guy that is more accurate is going to be better at throwing out runners given all other variables the same. The point PG is getting at I believe is that to be considered a good throwing catcher or to have a CHANCE at throwing out runners, the pop time is very important.
I was a shortstop and when I was in high school I threw 90+ across the diamond, but I didn't have a whole lot of accuracy. However, because I threw so hard, scouts and colleges took notice and I was drafted and went to a major D-1 as a result of my arm. Who do you think would stand out at a showcase, given both shortstops have good hands and feet, a player who throws 80 accurately, or the person who is throwing 92 and is wild? I can tell you the kid who is throwing 92 will be noticed by EVERYONE.
PG is correct to say being able to get the ball where it is going in time is very important. Accuracy will most likely come; as wild as I was when I was younger, I was very accurate throwing hard in college. This is the same for catchers..if you throw a 1.8, you can work on your accuracy, but very few catchers can go from a 2.05 to a 1.8 in college.
I was a shortstop and when I was in high school I threw 90+ across the diamond, but I didn't have a whole lot of accuracy. However, because I threw so hard, scouts and colleges took notice and I was drafted and went to a major D-1 as a result of my arm. Who do you think would stand out at a showcase, given both shortstops have good hands and feet, a player who throws 80 accurately, or the person who is throwing 92 and is wild? I can tell you the kid who is throwing 92 will be noticed by EVERYONE.
PG is correct to say being able to get the ball where it is going in time is very important. Accuracy will most likely come; as wild as I was when I was younger, I was very accurate throwing hard in college. This is the same for catchers..if you throw a 1.8, you can work on your accuracy, but very few catchers can go from a 2.05 to a 1.8 in college.
The key is throwing the baserunner and the hitter out---for an infielder a quick release can overcome lack of RADAR VELOCITY---the key is outs
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
The key is throwing the baserunner and the hitter out---for an infielder a quick release can overcome lack of RADAR VELOCITY---the key is outs
I do not disagree, but the radar velocity will get you noticed and give you more opportunities. A strong arm for a shortstop is crucial...there are very few David Ecksteins in the world.
DoD,
Believe it or not all scouts understand that 1.8 on the 1B side of the bag is better than 1.8 three feet wide of the bag. Believe it or not, we even understand the importance of accuracy.
Maybe this will clear it up...
1.8 that is anywhere that can be caught and a tag put down will always be better than a 2.3 right on the money. The quicker the pop time the "less" accurate a catcher needs to be.
Regarding the key being whether you throw the runner out or not. That is true, but a poor catcher with a poor pop time can throw out a poor runner! That is good, he threw out the runner, but he will not get any interest from scouts or college coaches. They have the stop watch on him! The quick guys will run him to death.
I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. This is just the way things are. The idea is to have the ability to throw out the quick guys at the highest possible level. If the runner is 3.3 to 2B and the pitcher is an amazing 1.2 to the plate. It takes 2.00 and "accurate" to even have a chance. If a catcher can't do that, nothing else matters in that case. The slow guys seldom steal bases at the highest levels.
I'm not discounting tag time, but if we are talking tag times, some middle infielders are better at that than others. Everyone notices accuracy on throws. Hard to miss that if you're watching.
Yes, it is teamwork, it takes the pitcher and the tag along with the catcher. However, it has to be a catcher who is capable of getting it there (that means accurately) in time.
Believe it or not all scouts understand that 1.8 on the 1B side of the bag is better than 1.8 three feet wide of the bag. Believe it or not, we even understand the importance of accuracy.
Maybe this will clear it up...
1.8 that is anywhere that can be caught and a tag put down will always be better than a 2.3 right on the money. The quicker the pop time the "less" accurate a catcher needs to be.
Regarding the key being whether you throw the runner out or not. That is true, but a poor catcher with a poor pop time can throw out a poor runner! That is good, he threw out the runner, but he will not get any interest from scouts or college coaches. They have the stop watch on him! The quick guys will run him to death.
I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. This is just the way things are. The idea is to have the ability to throw out the quick guys at the highest possible level. If the runner is 3.3 to 2B and the pitcher is an amazing 1.2 to the plate. It takes 2.00 and "accurate" to even have a chance. If a catcher can't do that, nothing else matters in that case. The slow guys seldom steal bases at the highest levels.
I'm not discounting tag time, but if we are talking tag times, some middle infielders are better at that than others. Everyone notices accuracy on throws. Hard to miss that if you're watching.
Yes, it is teamwork, it takes the pitcher and the tag along with the catcher. However, it has to be a catcher who is capable of getting it there (that means accurately) in time.
I've been following this thread for a while now and wish to add some commentary in support of what PG is saying. Yeah, all these things matter, but when you're evaluating positions, you look at different things. For a pitcher, you measure his velocity of his fastball, as well as secondary pitches. You also look at command, ability to change speeds, pitchability. You might note his time to home from the stretch, but that is only a supplemental note, if mentioned at all. For an infielder, you're going to note how he fields, moves to his left and right. How he throws, can he make the throw from the hole or behind 2nd, that kind of stuff. NOBODY is going to measure or care how he tags runners. It is way down on the list of things to worry about, compared to the other aspects of playing either position.
For a catcher, its a bit different. Throwing out runners is one of his primary responsibilities. Therefore, pop time is an essential measurement of a catcher's ability.
If you're selecting a pitcher based on his time to home, you don't know what you're supposed to be evaluating. In the big picture, that doesn't amount to a pimple on Boog Powell's butt!
For a catcher, its a bit different. Throwing out runners is one of his primary responsibilities. Therefore, pop time is an essential measurement of a catcher's ability.
If you're selecting a pitcher based on his time to home, you don't know what you're supposed to be evaluating. In the big picture, that doesn't amount to a pimple on Boog Powell's butt!
quote:Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
In the big picture, that doesn't amount to a pimple on Boog Powell's butt!
I do know that I won't be pondering on that big picture today or tommorrow!
wHO remembers the Boog vs Hondo days!
(like it was yesterday!)
Boog, 1965-71 180 homers 649 rbi, All Star,'68-'71
Hondo, 1965-71 237 homers 650 rbi, All Star,'68-'71
Boog pw = 6-4, 240.
Hondo pw = 6-7, 255.
Hondo arrived from LAD in '65, (being a NL ROY in LA) and led the AL in taters in '68 & '70 (with 44)and a career high 48 bombs in '69 (and at long ball unfriendly DC Stadium).
Boog played with the O's from '61-'74, with a stint at CLE (F Robinson saved him), & finished
in '77 with LAD.
Today, hanging out Camden Yards (small crowds this year), at Boog's Barb-B-Que is a treat for me when going to the new "old" park. Of course the lines with attendance down are not as long this year.
When in town, Boog's popularity with the loyal 60's fans remains undiminished. Yet ardent fans who watched the most successful team of 1958-85 continue a downward spiral that will probably last for 25+ years.
Of course Hondo looks great, continues to maintain his stroke, and at 71+, can handle a fungo while roving the minor leagues with NYY.
cheers