I've seen the info on scouting for the MLB pop times. What I'm looking for is info on pop times to 2B and 3B for the typical (and also elite) HS catcher. Thanks.
I Timothy 4:8
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Anything around 2.0 to 2nd is pretty darn good IMO. Hven't seen anything for going to 3rd... would think that it would be a shorter time though!
"You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." Bill -Spaceman- Lee
"You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." Bill -Spaceman- Lee
2.0 seems to be the gold standard, but what is realistic for HS. My 06 is playing some C and I'm looking for something for him to shoot for, other than simply being quicker than the other catchers.
I Timothy 4:8
I Timothy 4:8
Yeh....2.0 for a catcher is like 90 for a pitcher. So I sopose that 2.0 would be the # to shoot for.
Suggestion: figure out where he is now, then break down the sequence, and try to speed up the stages. By doing it this way you might be able get quicker times.
Just an aside, but the best catcher my son ever threw to had a terrible pop time! Weak arm, and bad (not just medeocre, but real bad!) footwork but he could really receive the ball, and was almot impossible to get a pitch in the dirt passed him!
My son had so much confidence in this guy it was amazing! Loved pitching to him! Come to find out that he had terrible knees which affected his ability to come out of the crouch. But boy he sure knew how to catch and make the pitcher look good!
"You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." Bill -Spaceman- Lee
Suggestion: figure out where he is now, then break down the sequence, and try to speed up the stages. By doing it this way you might be able get quicker times.
Just an aside, but the best catcher my son ever threw to had a terrible pop time! Weak arm, and bad (not just medeocre, but real bad!) footwork but he could really receive the ball, and was almot impossible to get a pitch in the dirt passed him!
My son had so much confidence in this guy it was amazing! Loved pitching to him! Come to find out that he had terrible knees which affected his ability to come out of the crouch. But boy he sure knew how to catch and make the pitcher look good!
"You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." Bill -Spaceman- Lee
JT,
If we are talking game situation times, then a 2.3 throw right on the mark will throw out alot of HS kids. Alot has to do with how good the pitcher holds the runner, and his time for delivery to plate. HS kid that hits 2.15 in a game regularly will shut down most running games.
Kid with a 90MPH fastball......Potential
Kid with a 90MPH fastball and a great catcher....Results
If we are talking game situation times, then a 2.3 throw right on the mark will throw out alot of HS kids. Alot has to do with how good the pitcher holds the runner, and his time for delivery to plate. HS kid that hits 2.15 in a game regularly will shut down most running games.
Kid with a 90MPH fastball......Potential
Kid with a 90MPH fastball and a great catcher....Results
Catching Coach your right on the money. My posistion that I coach is Catchers. I've timed hundreds of catchers over the last several years in game situations and practice. The average High School catcher is around 2.3. If pitchers hold runners correctly and the throw is accurate 2.3 is adequate to throw out the average high school runner. The good catchers pop at the high school level will be 2.1 to 2.3. Every once in a while you see the kid with 2.0 1.98 times. I have actually seen guys thrown out on 2.5 when the runner got a bad jump and the throw was on the money. I have also seen a 1.98 not get guys because the pitcher could not hold runners close enough or refused to. My youngest son who is an 8th grader is 2.15 - 2.25. My High School starter is 2.25 - 2.35 hes a senior. A good time to shoot for is an accurate 2.0 but a consistent 2.1 2.2 accurate throw is very good.
Im a sophomore in high school and my best pop time was timed at 2.13. In our first game yesterday, our pitcher walked the first batter. He then tried to steal right away, and I gunned him down. The team never ran again for the rest of the game and we shut down their offense because of it.
I am very interested in this conversation as I am the mom of a catcher(8th grade). We have never timed his throws because at this stage his coach was interested in accuracy and technique(no rainbows). Could someone give some instruction on timing a throw to second?
This thread also points out another side of the pitcher-catcher teamwork that happens on the field. My son's coach was complimenting his throws to second, but commented he needed some help from his pitcher to prevent a huge lead off of first.
"Every member of our baseball team at West Point became a general; this proves the value of team sports." --General Omar Bradley
This thread also points out another side of the pitcher-catcher teamwork that happens on the field. My son's coach was complimenting his throws to second, but commented he needed some help from his pitcher to prevent a huge lead off of first.
"Every member of our baseball team at West Point became a general; this proves the value of team sports." --General Omar Bradley
The POP time is the time measured from the instant the ball hits the catchers mit until it hits the second baseman's mit.
2.0 is the magic time that most coaches are looking for. You do not have to have a cannon for an arm to get that but you need good technique. My son has a 70 mph arm, but has oftentimes gotten below 2.0 in practices and hits 2.1=2,2 during game situations.
It is a good idea to find a good catching coach that can instruct your son. They are much more difficult to find than hittting instructors. There is a great deal of technique to catching and throwing. Catchingcoach had a great description of the throw down on this web page about a month ago. You might be a ble to find it. Tell your son to work on his long toss also it will strengthen his arm.
"They tell us to take a round bat and hit a round ball and hit it square" Willie Stargell
2.0 is the magic time that most coaches are looking for. You do not have to have a cannon for an arm to get that but you need good technique. My son has a 70 mph arm, but has oftentimes gotten below 2.0 in practices and hits 2.1=2,2 during game situations.
It is a good idea to find a good catching coach that can instruct your son. They are much more difficult to find than hittting instructors. There is a great deal of technique to catching and throwing. Catchingcoach had a great description of the throw down on this web page about a month ago. You might be a ble to find it. Tell your son to work on his long toss also it will strengthen his arm.
"They tell us to take a round bat and hit a round ball and hit it square" Willie Stargell
Thanks for all the great info--and I now have something for him to shoot for.
I Timothy 4:8
I Timothy 4:8
I'm with 33 here. I'm a college sophomore at a d3. I'm consistently in low 1.9's, but whenever I've been clocked with a radar gun, I've never thrown harder than 72 mph. Our other catcher has the same pop time as i do, but probably will hit 80 on his throws to second. The difference? Definitely footwork and foot speed. I can get my feet ready to throw twice as fast as him. But remember that there is always the factor of who is manning the stop watch.
The key is not the pop time or the radar gun readings--- the key is does the catcher throw out the runners-- it takes more than just the catcher--it takes the pitcher holding the runner on properly; it takes the pitcher throwing a good pitch for the catcher to handle when the runner goes; it takes the catcher having the right merchanics and anticipation when the runner goes.
Pop times and radar gun readings make great fodder for discussion on a website but they do not necessarily throw runners out
TRhit
Pop times and radar gun readings make great fodder for discussion on a website but they do not necessarily throw runners out
TRhit
My son is a senior this year and his average POP to 2nd is 1.96 however, as mentioned, this is only one factor.As Coach May mentioned, the pitchers can really make a difference on the ability to gun down a runner. Another factor is whoever is receiving the catch. There have been many throws on target way ahead of the runner but the tag is not made. At least the catcher does his job in that case but that opens another can of worms being talked about in another forum. Parents assume that if the ball is there, the runner is automatically out, never a missed tag. It seems in our case,the parents who object the LOUDEST know the least about the game. Do others run into that also? (Again probably for another forum)
This is a very nice thread that points out yet another way why performance statistics can not be used in an isolated manner.
That's what I like about baseball. It's not perfect. Sometimes the four hole hitter hits a dinger with bases loaded. Sometime he doesn't. Maybe the wind is different today.
Sometimes the 1.8 catcher throws the runner out. Sometimes he does not. Maybe the wind is different today. Maybe the base path to second has a slight incline. Maybe the dirt in the basepath is looser, deeper, or too wet yesterday or dry today.
It's ALL part of the game.
So many, many variables.
So, AU84, the answer to you question is that others run into that a lot.
Its a part of baseball.
That's what I like about baseball. It's not perfect. Sometimes the four hole hitter hits a dinger with bases loaded. Sometime he doesn't. Maybe the wind is different today.
Sometimes the 1.8 catcher throws the runner out. Sometimes he does not. Maybe the wind is different today. Maybe the base path to second has a slight incline. Maybe the dirt in the basepath is looser, deeper, or too wet yesterday or dry today.
It's ALL part of the game.
So many, many variables.
So, AU84, the answer to you question is that others run into that a lot.
Its a part of baseball.
Some good points here. Since my son is a college catcher I will throw in my 2.0 cents worth. This is nothing more than my observation over the past 4-5 years. Yes, in a game situation the goal is to throw the runner out, but many scouts and college coaches see a player in a showcase setting where velocity and pop times rule.
Pop time is the elapsed time from the “pop” of the catcher’s mitt from a pitched ball, to the “pop” of the infielder’s glove (2nd or SS) on the throw down to second. Arm strength, footwork, receiving the ball, and ball transfer to the throwing hand all contribute to the lower pop times. Just as the elusive 90mph is the standard for the RHP, 2.0 is the benchmark for the catcher. Most pitchers are effective with sub 90 readings and most catchers are effective with over 2.0 pop times.
College coaches and scouts are interested in a number of things when evaluating a catcher. During my son’s pro workouts and college recruiting trips I asked coaches and scouts what they were looking for in a catcher. Most said arm strength, footwork, durable body, ease of receiving, (I guess this could be best described as eye-hand coordination). Blocking was not a main concern because this is one area that can be taught. Foot-speed is not used to measure a catcher. Pro teams might measure a catcher’s foot-speed but they indicated it would not be used in the evaluation.
In my opinion a high school catcher needs to be below 2.3 seconds. I think “great” HS catchers need to be in the 2.1 to 1.9 times and the elite catchers need to be below 1.9. These times are controlled times in a showcase situation and will normally be slightly higher in a game situation.
College coaches and scouts are not concerned with stats. I hear a lot of parents and fans talk about catchers having the ability to call games and catchers handling pitchers but the name of the game is “catch and throw”. Right or wrong, the pop time becomes the standard used to measure catchers.
Fungo
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Pop time is the elapsed time from the “pop” of the catcher’s mitt from a pitched ball, to the “pop” of the infielder’s glove (2nd or SS) on the throw down to second. Arm strength, footwork, receiving the ball, and ball transfer to the throwing hand all contribute to the lower pop times. Just as the elusive 90mph is the standard for the RHP, 2.0 is the benchmark for the catcher. Most pitchers are effective with sub 90 readings and most catchers are effective with over 2.0 pop times.
College coaches and scouts are interested in a number of things when evaluating a catcher. During my son’s pro workouts and college recruiting trips I asked coaches and scouts what they were looking for in a catcher. Most said arm strength, footwork, durable body, ease of receiving, (I guess this could be best described as eye-hand coordination). Blocking was not a main concern because this is one area that can be taught. Foot-speed is not used to measure a catcher. Pro teams might measure a catcher’s foot-speed but they indicated it would not be used in the evaluation.
In my opinion a high school catcher needs to be below 2.3 seconds. I think “great” HS catchers need to be in the 2.1 to 1.9 times and the elite catchers need to be below 1.9. These times are controlled times in a showcase situation and will normally be slightly higher in a game situation.
College coaches and scouts are not concerned with stats. I hear a lot of parents and fans talk about catchers having the ability to call games and catchers handling pitchers but the name of the game is “catch and throw”. Right or wrong, the pop time becomes the standard used to measure catchers.
Fungo
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Fungo,
Great post!
The coach wants catchers who throw runners out. If he throws nearly all runners out the catcher is doing his job.
That said... The scouts and recruiters look to pop times and arm strength as tools that show the ability to throw out runners at the very highest levels of baseball.
The pop time is very much important. Just as the runners time leading off 1B to touching 2B attempting to steal. These are "game" pop times and they're the most important.
The scout or recruiter will always prefer the strong arm and quicker pop times over the catcher who has the weaker arm and slower pop times, even if the slower pop time catcher has the best caught stealing results. In most cases it's the same, but level of competition and level of coaching can make the statistics very misleading. (pitchers who are too slow to the plate falls under coaching)
The best thing that a young catcher can do is work to improve his pop times and arm strength while at the same time maintaining accuracy. The stop watch makes for an easy guide while trying to improve.
Arm strength is perhaps #1, especially if the catcher shows agility and athletic ability. Sometimes we see a catcher with a strong arm but terrible technique. If this player has good feet and overall agility, his strong arm becomes very important in projecting his ability. We know his pop times will get better.
Great post!
The coach wants catchers who throw runners out. If he throws nearly all runners out the catcher is doing his job.
That said... The scouts and recruiters look to pop times and arm strength as tools that show the ability to throw out runners at the very highest levels of baseball.
The pop time is very much important. Just as the runners time leading off 1B to touching 2B attempting to steal. These are "game" pop times and they're the most important.
The scout or recruiter will always prefer the strong arm and quicker pop times over the catcher who has the weaker arm and slower pop times, even if the slower pop time catcher has the best caught stealing results. In most cases it's the same, but level of competition and level of coaching can make the statistics very misleading. (pitchers who are too slow to the plate falls under coaching)
The best thing that a young catcher can do is work to improve his pop times and arm strength while at the same time maintaining accuracy. The stop watch makes for an easy guide while trying to improve.
Arm strength is perhaps #1, especially if the catcher shows agility and athletic ability. Sometimes we see a catcher with a strong arm but terrible technique. If this player has good feet and overall agility, his strong arm becomes very important in projecting his ability. We know his pop times will get better.
I'm a freshman catcher who has been timed at 2.14. I was clocked pitching 78. I have good footwork which I work on with my catcher coach, but I need to improve my arm strength. Many replies have said that this is one of the keys to having a good pop time. My question is does anyone know how to get my arm strength better? My dad has told me long toss which I do every other day, but what are some good exercises I can do to improve my arm strength. Thank you
Check the top96.com website...it has the pop times for the top catchers in the northeast for the past few years. It will give you an idea of realistic game time pop times.
I can tell you that caught stealing percentage is a pretty unreliable statistic the lower the level of BB.
My kid is an 8th grade catcher. Game tonight three baserunners advanced on what would be scored as steals. All three had the runner going, curve in the dirt, my son goes into block position. Blocked all three, but no way in time to even make a throw.
Two other times tonight he had baserunners picked (one at first one at second) and the infielders failed to make the play.
I'm sure the same stuff happens enough at the HS level to make scouts rely on pop times rather than caught stealing percentage.
My kid is an 8th grade catcher. Game tonight three baserunners advanced on what would be scored as steals. All three had the runner going, curve in the dirt, my son goes into block position. Blocked all three, but no way in time to even make a throw.
Two other times tonight he had baserunners picked (one at first one at second) and the infielders failed to make the play.
I'm sure the same stuff happens enough at the HS level to make scouts rely on pop times rather than caught stealing percentage.
When I last posted on this thread my son was an 8th grader and now he is starting on our varsity at the catching posistion. He is a consistent 2.1 accurate. He is now getting some 2.0 times in practice and before games. Every coach times catchers of the opposing team before the game starts to gauge what they are up against. I have always told my guys that I want them to show it off before game starts and sometimes this will deter teams from even attempting to steal. So far this year we have played 21 games. Six attempts and four cs by my son. In conference believe it or not we have had only one player even attempt a stolen base and that was on a first and third and he threw him out. Sometimes just showing that you can throw someone out will deter you from having to throw anyone out. As far as game time pops his fastest time this year was in a game situation. Pitchers have to do their job for the catcher to do his. We work on this ie slide step mixing up our moves etc. An accurate consistent 2.0 is the benchmark. But that doesnt mean that an accurate consistent 2.1 or 2.2 can not get the job done. I would say that my sons footwork is good but not outstanding in my opinon. He needs to keep working on it. He has outstanding arm strength 82-84 mph. Most of the guys we have faced this year are 2.3 some have been 2.2. Very few of them have been consistently accurate. And just about everyone of them have been much slower in game situations.