I've seen the info on scouting for the MLB pop times. What I'm looking for is info on pop times to 2B and 3B for the typical (and also elite) HS catcher. Thanks.
I Timothy 4:8
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Anything around 2.0 to 2nd is pretty darn good IMO. Hven't seen anything for going to 3rd... would think that it would be a shorter time though!
"You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." Bill -Spaceman- Lee
"You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." Bill -Spaceman- Lee
2.0 seems to be the gold standard, but what is realistic for HS. My 06 is playing some C and I'm looking for something for him to shoot for, other than simply being quicker than the other catchers.
I Timothy 4:8
I Timothy 4:8
Yeh....2.0 for a catcher is like 90 for a pitcher. So I sopose that 2.0 would be the # to shoot for.
Suggestion: figure out where he is now, then break down the sequence, and try to speed up the stages. By doing it this way you might be able get quicker times.
Just an aside, but the best catcher my son ever threw to had a terrible pop time! Weak arm, and bad (not just medeocre, but real bad!) footwork but he could really receive the ball, and was almot impossible to get a pitch in the dirt passed him!
My son had so much confidence in this guy it was amazing! Loved pitching to him! Come to find out that he had terrible knees which affected his ability to come out of the crouch. But boy he sure knew how to catch and make the pitcher look good!
"You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." Bill -Spaceman- Lee
Suggestion: figure out where he is now, then break down the sequence, and try to speed up the stages. By doing it this way you might be able get quicker times.
Just an aside, but the best catcher my son ever threw to had a terrible pop time! Weak arm, and bad (not just medeocre, but real bad!) footwork but he could really receive the ball, and was almot impossible to get a pitch in the dirt passed him!
My son had so much confidence in this guy it was amazing! Loved pitching to him! Come to find out that he had terrible knees which affected his ability to come out of the crouch. But boy he sure knew how to catch and make the pitcher look good!
"You should enter a ballpark the way you enter a church." Bill -Spaceman- Lee
JT,
If we are talking game situation times, then a 2.3 throw right on the mark will throw out alot of HS kids. Alot has to do with how good the pitcher holds the runner, and his time for delivery to plate. HS kid that hits 2.15 in a game regularly will shut down most running games.
Kid with a 90MPH fastball......Potential
Kid with a 90MPH fastball and a great catcher....Results
If we are talking game situation times, then a 2.3 throw right on the mark will throw out alot of HS kids. Alot has to do with how good the pitcher holds the runner, and his time for delivery to plate. HS kid that hits 2.15 in a game regularly will shut down most running games.
Kid with a 90MPH fastball......Potential
Kid with a 90MPH fastball and a great catcher....Results
Catching Coach your right on the money. My posistion that I coach is Catchers. I've timed hundreds of catchers over the last several years in game situations and practice. The average High School catcher is around 2.3. If pitchers hold runners correctly and the throw is accurate 2.3 is adequate to throw out the average high school runner. The good catchers pop at the high school level will be 2.1 to 2.3. Every once in a while you see the kid with 2.0 1.98 times. I have actually seen guys thrown out on 2.5 when the runner got a bad jump and the throw was on the money. I have also seen a 1.98 not get guys because the pitcher could not hold runners close enough or refused to. My youngest son who is an 8th grader is 2.15 - 2.25. My High School starter is 2.25 - 2.35 hes a senior. A good time to shoot for is an accurate 2.0 but a consistent 2.1 2.2 accurate throw is very good.
Im a sophomore in high school and my best pop time was timed at 2.13. In our first game yesterday, our pitcher walked the first batter. He then tried to steal right away, and I gunned him down. The team never ran again for the rest of the game and we shut down their offense because of it.
I am very interested in this conversation as I am the mom of a catcher(8th grade). We have never timed his throws because at this stage his coach was interested in accuracy and technique(no rainbows). Could someone give some instruction on timing a throw to second?
This thread also points out another side of the pitcher-catcher teamwork that happens on the field. My son's coach was complimenting his throws to second, but commented he needed some help from his pitcher to prevent a huge lead off of first.
"Every member of our baseball team at West Point became a general; this proves the value of team sports." --General Omar Bradley
This thread also points out another side of the pitcher-catcher teamwork that happens on the field. My son's coach was complimenting his throws to second, but commented he needed some help from his pitcher to prevent a huge lead off of first.
"Every member of our baseball team at West Point became a general; this proves the value of team sports." --General Omar Bradley
The POP time is the time measured from the instant the ball hits the catchers mit until it hits the second baseman's mit.
2.0 is the magic time that most coaches are looking for. You do not have to have a cannon for an arm to get that but you need good technique. My son has a 70 mph arm, but has oftentimes gotten below 2.0 in practices and hits 2.1=2,2 during game situations.
It is a good idea to find a good catching coach that can instruct your son. They are much more difficult to find than hittting instructors. There is a great deal of technique to catching and throwing. Catchingcoach had a great description of the throw down on this web page about a month ago. You might be a ble to find it. Tell your son to work on his long toss also it will strengthen his arm.
"They tell us to take a round bat and hit a round ball and hit it square" Willie Stargell
2.0 is the magic time that most coaches are looking for. You do not have to have a cannon for an arm to get that but you need good technique. My son has a 70 mph arm, but has oftentimes gotten below 2.0 in practices and hits 2.1=2,2 during game situations.
It is a good idea to find a good catching coach that can instruct your son. They are much more difficult to find than hittting instructors. There is a great deal of technique to catching and throwing. Catchingcoach had a great description of the throw down on this web page about a month ago. You might be a ble to find it. Tell your son to work on his long toss also it will strengthen his arm.
"They tell us to take a round bat and hit a round ball and hit it square" Willie Stargell
Thanks for all the great info--and I now have something for him to shoot for.
I Timothy 4:8
I Timothy 4:8
I'm with 33 here. I'm a college sophomore at a d3. I'm consistently in low 1.9's, but whenever I've been clocked with a radar gun, I've never thrown harder than 72 mph. Our other catcher has the same pop time as i do, but probably will hit 80 on his throws to second. The difference? Definitely footwork and foot speed. I can get my feet ready to throw twice as fast as him. But remember that there is always the factor of who is manning the stop watch.
The key is not the pop time or the radar gun readings--- the key is does the catcher throw out the runners-- it takes more than just the catcher--it takes the pitcher holding the runner on properly; it takes the pitcher throwing a good pitch for the catcher to handle when the runner goes; it takes the catcher having the right merchanics and anticipation when the runner goes.
Pop times and radar gun readings make great fodder for discussion on a website but they do not necessarily throw runners out
TRhit
Pop times and radar gun readings make great fodder for discussion on a website but they do not necessarily throw runners out
TRhit
My son is a senior this year and his average POP to 2nd is 1.96 however, as mentioned, this is only one factor.As Coach May mentioned, the pitchers can really make a difference on the ability to gun down a runner. Another factor is whoever is receiving the catch. There have been many throws on target way ahead of the runner but the tag is not made. At least the catcher does his job in that case but that opens another can of worms being talked about in another forum. Parents assume that if the ball is there, the runner is automatically out, never a missed tag. It seems in our case,the parents who object the LOUDEST know the least about the game. Do others run into that also? (Again probably for another forum)
This is a very nice thread that points out yet another way why performance statistics can not be used in an isolated manner.
That's what I like about baseball. It's not perfect. Sometimes the four hole hitter hits a dinger with bases loaded. Sometime he doesn't. Maybe the wind is different today.
Sometimes the 1.8 catcher throws the runner out. Sometimes he does not. Maybe the wind is different today. Maybe the base path to second has a slight incline. Maybe the dirt in the basepath is looser, deeper, or too wet yesterday or dry today.
It's ALL part of the game.
So many, many variables.
So, AU84, the answer to you question is that others run into that a lot.
Its a part of baseball.
That's what I like about baseball. It's not perfect. Sometimes the four hole hitter hits a dinger with bases loaded. Sometime he doesn't. Maybe the wind is different today.
Sometimes the 1.8 catcher throws the runner out. Sometimes he does not. Maybe the wind is different today. Maybe the base path to second has a slight incline. Maybe the dirt in the basepath is looser, deeper, or too wet yesterday or dry today.
It's ALL part of the game.
So many, many variables.
So, AU84, the answer to you question is that others run into that a lot.
Its a part of baseball.
Some good points here. Since my son is a college catcher I will throw in my 2.0 cents worth. This is nothing more than my observation over the past 4-5 years. Yes, in a game situation the goal is to throw the runner out, but many scouts and college coaches see a player in a showcase setting where velocity and pop times rule.
Pop time is the elapsed time from the “pop” of the catcher’s mitt from a pitched ball, to the “pop” of the infielder’s glove (2nd or SS) on the throw down to second. Arm strength, footwork, receiving the ball, and ball transfer to the throwing hand all contribute to the lower pop times. Just as the elusive 90mph is the standard for the RHP, 2.0 is the benchmark for the catcher. Most pitchers are effective with sub 90 readings and most catchers are effective with over 2.0 pop times.
College coaches and scouts are interested in a number of things when evaluating a catcher. During my son’s pro workouts and college recruiting trips I asked coaches and scouts what they were looking for in a catcher. Most said arm strength, footwork, durable body, ease of receiving, (I guess this could be best described as eye-hand coordination). Blocking was not a main concern because this is one area that can be taught. Foot-speed is not used to measure a catcher. Pro teams might measure a catcher’s foot-speed but they indicated it would not be used in the evaluation.
In my opinion a high school catcher needs to be below 2.3 seconds. I think “great” HS catchers need to be in the 2.1 to 1.9 times and the elite catchers need to be below 1.9. These times are controlled times in a showcase situation and will normally be slightly higher in a game situation.
College coaches and scouts are not concerned with stats. I hear a lot of parents and fans talk about catchers having the ability to call games and catchers handling pitchers but the name of the game is “catch and throw”. Right or wrong, the pop time becomes the standard used to measure catchers.
Fungo
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Pop time is the elapsed time from the “pop” of the catcher’s mitt from a pitched ball, to the “pop” of the infielder’s glove (2nd or SS) on the throw down to second. Arm strength, footwork, receiving the ball, and ball transfer to the throwing hand all contribute to the lower pop times. Just as the elusive 90mph is the standard for the RHP, 2.0 is the benchmark for the catcher. Most pitchers are effective with sub 90 readings and most catchers are effective with over 2.0 pop times.
College coaches and scouts are interested in a number of things when evaluating a catcher. During my son’s pro workouts and college recruiting trips I asked coaches and scouts what they were looking for in a catcher. Most said arm strength, footwork, durable body, ease of receiving, (I guess this could be best described as eye-hand coordination). Blocking was not a main concern because this is one area that can be taught. Foot-speed is not used to measure a catcher. Pro teams might measure a catcher’s foot-speed but they indicated it would not be used in the evaluation.
In my opinion a high school catcher needs to be below 2.3 seconds. I think “great” HS catchers need to be in the 2.1 to 1.9 times and the elite catchers need to be below 1.9. These times are controlled times in a showcase situation and will normally be slightly higher in a game situation.
College coaches and scouts are not concerned with stats. I hear a lot of parents and fans talk about catchers having the ability to call games and catchers handling pitchers but the name of the game is “catch and throw”. Right or wrong, the pop time becomes the standard used to measure catchers.
Fungo
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Fungo,
Great post!
The coach wants catchers who throw runners out. If he throws nearly all runners out the catcher is doing his job.
That said... The scouts and recruiters look to pop times and arm strength as tools that show the ability to throw out runners at the very highest levels of baseball.
The pop time is very much important. Just as the runners time leading off 1B to touching 2B attempting to steal. These are "game" pop times and they're the most important.
The scout or recruiter will always prefer the strong arm and quicker pop times over the catcher who has the weaker arm and slower pop times, even if the slower pop time catcher has the best caught stealing results. In most cases it's the same, but level of competition and level of coaching can make the statistics very misleading. (pitchers who are too slow to the plate falls under coaching)
The best thing that a young catcher can do is work to improve his pop times and arm strength while at the same time maintaining accuracy. The stop watch makes for an easy guide while trying to improve.
Arm strength is perhaps #1, especially if the catcher shows agility and athletic ability. Sometimes we see a catcher with a strong arm but terrible technique. If this player has good feet and overall agility, his strong arm becomes very important in projecting his ability. We know his pop times will get better.
Great post!
The coach wants catchers who throw runners out. If he throws nearly all runners out the catcher is doing his job.
That said... The scouts and recruiters look to pop times and arm strength as tools that show the ability to throw out runners at the very highest levels of baseball.
The pop time is very much important. Just as the runners time leading off 1B to touching 2B attempting to steal. These are "game" pop times and they're the most important.
The scout or recruiter will always prefer the strong arm and quicker pop times over the catcher who has the weaker arm and slower pop times, even if the slower pop time catcher has the best caught stealing results. In most cases it's the same, but level of competition and level of coaching can make the statistics very misleading. (pitchers who are too slow to the plate falls under coaching)
The best thing that a young catcher can do is work to improve his pop times and arm strength while at the same time maintaining accuracy. The stop watch makes for an easy guide while trying to improve.
Arm strength is perhaps #1, especially if the catcher shows agility and athletic ability. Sometimes we see a catcher with a strong arm but terrible technique. If this player has good feet and overall agility, his strong arm becomes very important in projecting his ability. We know his pop times will get better.
I'm a freshman catcher who has been timed at 2.14. I was clocked pitching 78. I have good footwork which I work on with my catcher coach, but I need to improve my arm strength. Many replies have said that this is one of the keys to having a good pop time. My question is does anyone know how to get my arm strength better? My dad has told me long toss which I do every other day, but what are some good exercises I can do to improve my arm strength. Thank you
Check the top96.com website...it has the pop times for the top catchers in the northeast for the past few years. It will give you an idea of realistic game time pop times.
I can tell you that caught stealing percentage is a pretty unreliable statistic the lower the level of BB.
My kid is an 8th grade catcher. Game tonight three baserunners advanced on what would be scored as steals. All three had the runner going, curve in the dirt, my son goes into block position. Blocked all three, but no way in time to even make a throw.
Two other times tonight he had baserunners picked (one at first one at second) and the infielders failed to make the play.
I'm sure the same stuff happens enough at the HS level to make scouts rely on pop times rather than caught stealing percentage.
My kid is an 8th grade catcher. Game tonight three baserunners advanced on what would be scored as steals. All three had the runner going, curve in the dirt, my son goes into block position. Blocked all three, but no way in time to even make a throw.
Two other times tonight he had baserunners picked (one at first one at second) and the infielders failed to make the play.
I'm sure the same stuff happens enough at the HS level to make scouts rely on pop times rather than caught stealing percentage.
When I last posted on this thread my son was an 8th grader and now he is starting on our varsity at the catching posistion. He is a consistent 2.1 accurate. He is now getting some 2.0 times in practice and before games. Every coach times catchers of the opposing team before the game starts to gauge what they are up against. I have always told my guys that I want them to show it off before game starts and sometimes this will deter teams from even attempting to steal. So far this year we have played 21 games. Six attempts and four cs by my son. In conference believe it or not we have had only one player even attempt a stolen base and that was on a first and third and he threw him out. Sometimes just showing that you can throw someone out will deter you from having to throw anyone out. As far as game time pops his fastest time this year was in a game situation. Pitchers have to do their job for the catcher to do his. We work on this ie slide step mixing up our moves etc. An accurate consistent 2.0 is the benchmark. But that doesnt mean that an accurate consistent 2.1 or 2.2 can not get the job done. I would say that my sons footwork is good but not outstanding in my opinon. He needs to keep working on it. He has outstanding arm strength 82-84 mph. Most of the guys we have faced this year are 2.3 some have been 2.2. Very few of them have been consistently accurate. And just about everyone of them have been much slower in game situations.
Yea I can get the ball down in a close 2.3 but my pitchers rarely hold the runner on kids are 3/4 the way down the line before I get the pitch. I have 1 throwout on a leadoff batter that came just last week. Can you cant tell a true catcher without a good pitcher imo. Kids get to big of jumps on HS pitching.
But 2 third I have about 10 or so throwouts.
You better learn how to hit the ball well and worry about your pop times second. Anyone who tells you these days that a catcher must have defense first to get drafted or go to college is mislead. Those days are gone. Maybe after you get drafted, defense becomes a little more important
Catchers that get drafted get drafted because they are good catchers but great hitters. Great catchers that are avg hitters go to college. The last two guys made great points. You steal on the pitcher not the catcher. Pitchers that do not hold runners and are slow to the plate just about eliminate a catchers chances of throwing out runners. Ive seen guys thrown out on 2.4's and I have seen 2.0 throws that were not even close. What kind of jump a kid gets depends on how the pitchers are holding the runners and the jump determines the stolen base.
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
The key is not the pop time or the radar gun readings--- the key is does the catcher throw out the runners-- it takes more than just the catcher--it takes the pitcher holding the runner on properly; it takes the pitcher throwing a good pitch for the catcher to handle when the runner goes; it takes the catcher having the right merchanics and anticipation when the runner goes.
Pop times and radar gun readings make great fodder for discussion on a website but they do not necessarily throw runners out
TRhit
Genius at work.
I'm an '06 graduate and I recently had a State Games tryout. I was timed at 1.89-1.94. If you are looking to lower your times, work on your footwork.
One thing to differentiate is game pop time to showoff pop time.
If you can throw 2.1 or better in a game, staying down long enough to give the umpire a chance to call a strike, you can play in college. I saw quite a few D-I catchers this season who couldn't do that.
No batter, no umpire, just you against the watch, if you progress 2.3, 2.2, 2.1, 2.0 through the high school years, you'll be just fine.
If you can throw 2.1 or better in a game, staying down long enough to give the umpire a chance to call a strike, you can play in college. I saw quite a few D-I catchers this season who couldn't do that.
No batter, no umpire, just you against the watch, if you progress 2.3, 2.2, 2.1, 2.0 through the high school years, you'll be just fine.
I have a son in his jun. year of high school. He played third last year and has caught for his summer teams. last Jan. in fort myers he was clocked at 1.89. His coach sent his catching stats to me this week and they are 130 po. 4 errors. 10 thrown out and a 96.somthing feilding persentage. What does his talent level sound like to you guys? thanks for your time
chamos,
Welcome to the high school baseball web. Sounds as if your son has a lot of talent. A 1.89 sec is a VERY good pop time. With his obvious strong arm I'm surprised the high school coach hasn't put him on the mound. Keep us posted.
Fungo
Welcome to the high school baseball web. Sounds as if your son has a lot of talent. A 1.89 sec is a VERY good pop time. With his obvious strong arm I'm surprised the high school coach hasn't put him on the mound. Keep us posted.
Fungo
As the father of a MI, don't forget about the guy putting down the tag. When the catcher doesn't have to worry about being perfect, the pop times go up in games and the catchers look good.
What about the centerfielder who backs up the middle infielder and also the pitcher and first baseman who has to hold the runner on? All are supporting cast of the catcher in picking off the runner. I don't believe the catcher "thinks" about his teammate's talent or lack of talent in this situation, his job is to catch and throw. While we all know picking off the runner takes more than a strong accurate throw from the catcher, we have to give credit where credit is due. The measured "pop time" is the result of the catcher's actions.
Fungo
Fungo
Dave,
Poorly written. Allow me to rewrite and I will send to your web site.
I am a big believer in first improving a young catchers ability to:
- receiving the baseball
- splitting
- transitioning
I have seen a young catcher's arm strength take care of itself (and improve over time).
I was trying to discuss what can be done to improve a catcher pop times, and to do that discuss:
- arm strength vs the above.
- IMHO, after several years of discussions, observations, and digital cameras, a catcher's split times are the area where TT&P improves pop times, thus yielding the most improvement (i.e. 20%). Thus pop times can be reduced from 2.3 sec (nominal 16 y/o) to (in rare cases 20%) 1.84 sec with Tactics, Techniques & Procedures.
I wish I had a catcher (at 16 y/o) throwing 87
(and since dreaming this morning, how about a left handed hitting catcher.....(better yet, equally well on both sides of plate!).
emme for details
cheers
Bear
Thanks for double check.
Poorly written. Allow me to rewrite and I will send to your web site.
I am a big believer in first improving a young catchers ability to:
- receiving the baseball
- splitting
- transitioning
I have seen a young catcher's arm strength take care of itself (and improve over time).
I was trying to discuss what can be done to improve a catcher pop times, and to do that discuss:
- arm strength vs the above.
- IMHO, after several years of discussions, observations, and digital cameras, a catcher's split times are the area where TT&P improves pop times, thus yielding the most improvement (i.e. 20%). Thus pop times can be reduced from 2.3 sec (nominal 16 y/o) to (in rare cases 20%) 1.84 sec with Tactics, Techniques & Procedures.
I wish I had a catcher (at 16 y/o) throwing 87
(and since dreaming this morning, how about a left handed hitting catcher.....(better yet, equally well on both sides of plate!).
emme for details
cheers
Bear
Thanks for double check.
quote:Originally posted by Bear:
After several years of discussion, observation, and digital cameras, a catcher's split times are the area where pop times can improve the most.
Yes, a catcher's increasing arm strength helps,
yet may only account for about 20%. (ie. 0.4 seconds for ball in flight).
The other 80% primarily includes:
- receiving the baseball
- splitting
- transitioning
- releasing
emme for details
Bear, I have always liked your numbers but this one I need you to double check.
Are you saying that on a throw to 2nd only 4/10's of a second is taken up by the in-flight time?
Can't make that number work since it takes a throw of 87MPH to cover the 127ft in one full second. An in-flight time of 4/10's is not possible....I think?
Am I missing something here??
quote:Originally posted by NY-CATCHER:
............. Can you cant tell a true catcher without a good pitcher imo. Kids get to big of jumps on HS pitching.
A truely terrible pitcher will show how good a catcher you really are, IMO, as you'll get to block a lot of pitches, make throws to bases and show the coach you know how to deal with a pitcher in trouble
Coaches and people who know the game can tell if a guy can catch or not no matter how poorly the pitcher holds a runner on. You shouldn't be concerned about the people who can't separate the catchers actions from those of the pitcher as they probebely aren't making the lineup.
Actually, Catching Coach, it takes well over 87 MPH to travel the 127 feet in one second. I think you are forgetting the decelleration of the ball in flight, which is about 1 MPH or every 10 feet.
An 87 MPH throw gets there in 1.07 seconds. It takes a 94 mph muzzle velocity to get to second base in 1.0 seconds.
An 87 MPH throw gets there in 1.07 seconds. It takes a 94 mph muzzle velocity to get to second base in 1.0 seconds.
Well my son is a catcher, and he is interested in improving his throw down to second / pop times.
So just for the heck of it I started recording pop times on some of the college and MLB games I have been watching.
The best pop time so far in a game situation was 1.9 seconds, I have a DVR and run it back just to get a few times just to see if I am correct. Surprisingly most of the pop time in the MLB and college are around 2sec to 2.2seconds.
The best pop time of 1.9 seconds was a perfect pitch and a perfect thrown that got the guy out with a glove tag while the guy was sliding head first. I mean he was out by a mile/few feet.
Ok, my dilemma is you can work all you want to on arm strength, foot work but what I see as the most important thing in just the catchers responsibility when in comes to pop time is accuracy. You can have the best pop time but if you cannot throw down to second with accuracy you are doing nothing but fooling yourself when in comes to good pop time.
Am I missing something here when it comes to just Pop time to second? Is it really that important when I am timing the pros and college at around 2 seconds? With differant pitchs involed here?
Since there is such a range of grow/maturity in HS ball i have seen everything from 2.3 - 3.1 for a young freshemen who now should be throwing in the 2.7 range. at this age it depends on a lot of differnt things. Skills, size/maturity and disire to work on foot work and proper throw down posture to help save time to be more acuurate
Love always that #2 position,
drill
__________________
So just for the heck of it I started recording pop times on some of the college and MLB games I have been watching.
The best pop time so far in a game situation was 1.9 seconds, I have a DVR and run it back just to get a few times just to see if I am correct. Surprisingly most of the pop time in the MLB and college are around 2sec to 2.2seconds.
The best pop time of 1.9 seconds was a perfect pitch and a perfect thrown that got the guy out with a glove tag while the guy was sliding head first. I mean he was out by a mile/few feet.
Ok, my dilemma is you can work all you want to on arm strength, foot work but what I see as the most important thing in just the catchers responsibility when in comes to pop time is accuracy. You can have the best pop time but if you cannot throw down to second with accuracy you are doing nothing but fooling yourself when in comes to good pop time.
Am I missing something here when it comes to just Pop time to second? Is it really that important when I am timing the pros and college at around 2 seconds? With differant pitchs involed here?
Since there is such a range of grow/maturity in HS ball i have seen everything from 2.3 - 3.1 for a young freshemen who now should be throwing in the 2.7 range. at this age it depends on a lot of differnt things. Skills, size/maturity and disire to work on foot work and proper throw down posture to help save time to be more acuurate
Love always that #2 position,
drill
__________________
I was reading this thread and thought: "Coach May has three sons!" 
I sure wish I had another son mom. I sure would love to do it all over again with another one. I read this thread again and couldnt help but notice the steady improvement in my sons times over the last four years. Mainly due to him getting quicker and better mechanics behind the plate. And of course every year his arm strength has improved. The biggest thing is probaly his ability to put himself in a good throwing posistion by the way he receives the baseball. Alot of it is just experience and not rushing. He used to go get the baseball a bit when he heard runner or saw the runner going. He learned to let the ball get to him and catch it deep and not rush. But the bottom line is its an ongoing process where you never get satisfied and always work to improve.
quote:Originally posted by Coach May:
Catchers that get drafted get drafted because they are good catchers but great hitters. Great catchers that are avg hitters go to college. The last two guys made great points. You steal on the pitcher not the catcher. Pitchers that do not hold runners and are slow to the plate just about eliminate a catchers chances of throwing out runners. Ive seen guys thrown out on 2.4's and I have seen 2.0 throws that were not even close. What kind of jump a kid gets depends on how the pitchers are holding the runners and the jump determines the stolen base.
I agree that average hitters go to college. However, the catchers that are truly great as far as calling a game/throwing runners, etc. are the ones that do well after college, even if they aren't necessarily a great hitter. Being able to have the pitchers trust is very important as you get up in levels....unless of course you can just mash.
Workout and game pop times are different. But you either compare workout times or game pop times. You do not compare high school workout times to professional game pop times.
One thing for sure... Professional catchers and high DI level catchers have quicker "game" pop times than most catchers below that level.
No matter how you look at it... all runners are not equal in the time it takes them to get to 2B. All catchers are not equal in the pop times to 2B. The quicker the catcher is (pop times)... The better chance he has of throwing out the runners that get there the fastest.
Throwing out slow runners is not very important in pro or high level college. Those guys seldom try to steal bases. Accuracy is very important... The tag is very important... But if you can't get it there on time... Accuracy and the tag mean nothing!
The pop time means everything. That is why every scout in baseball times it! They are not interested in how many "slow" runners a catcher throws out. They want to know if you can get it there quick enough to throw out those who actually steal bases at the highest level.
One thing for sure... Professional catchers and high DI level catchers have quicker "game" pop times than most catchers below that level.
No matter how you look at it... all runners are not equal in the time it takes them to get to 2B. All catchers are not equal in the pop times to 2B. The quicker the catcher is (pop times)... The better chance he has of throwing out the runners that get there the fastest.
Throwing out slow runners is not very important in pro or high level college. Those guys seldom try to steal bases. Accuracy is very important... The tag is very important... But if you can't get it there on time... Accuracy and the tag mean nothing!
The pop time means everything. That is why every scout in baseball times it! They are not interested in how many "slow" runners a catcher throws out. They want to know if you can get it there quick enough to throw out those who actually steal bases at the highest level.
Here's some advice to improve your skills at the toughest position on the field.
1) Get a good catching coach.
2) Buy a wild dog
3) Put some meat on 2nd base
4) Release the wild dog.
5) Practice throwing the wild dog out.
A simple - yet effective - practice technique.
As PG stated - nobody cares about your pop times - they only care about whether you throw the dog out - and throwing the lumbering elephant out doesnt mean anything.
1) Get a good catching coach.
2) Buy a wild dog
3) Put some meat on 2nd base
4) Release the wild dog.
5) Practice throwing the wild dog out.
A simple - yet effective - practice technique.
As PG stated - nobody cares about your pop times - they only care about whether you throw the dog out - and throwing the lumbering elephant out doesnt mean anything.
quote:Here's some advice to improve your skills at the toughest position on the field.
1) Get a good catching coach.
2) Buy a wild dog
3) Put some meat on 2nd base
4) Release the wild dog.
5) Practice throwing the wild dog out.
A simple - yet effective - practice technique.
ha ha that's pretty good
i have seen accurate one hoopers get guys out on second. Most steals are on the pitcher. Catcher can have best pop time under 2 secs. but if pitcher time isn't down it makes no differance what pop time is or how accurate throw is
drill
i guess we should ask what is a good pitch time to catcher, we all have to work togather.
drill
i guess we should ask what is a good pitch time to catcher, we all have to work togather.
The catchers pop time is the part that the catcher controls. The guys who can get it there on the money consistently in the 1.9 to 2.00 range are BETTER than the guys who get it there 2.2 to 2.3.
Consider that .2 is pretty much a full running stride difference in time.
If the runner gets to 2B in 3.5 seconds and the pitcher is 1.5 seconds, only one of the above catchers has any chance at all!
Consider that .2 is pretty much a full running stride difference in time.
If the runner gets to 2B in 3.5 seconds and the pitcher is 1.5 seconds, only one of the above catchers has any chance at all!
The one thing we have no info on is tag time. Just how long does it take a fielder to catch a ball head high and get his glove to the base. Or shoulder high, or waist high. What about a ball to the left or right.
Whatever the time is, it should be added on to a catchers pop time, as the race is to the bag, not the fielders glove.
From what I have seen, the true test of a catchers ability to throw out runners is determined late in close games.
If it's the 9th inning in a tie game and the other team gets a runner on first, this is the moment the catcher needs to be fast and accurate. This is the time that pitchers focus more on holding runners close so stolen bases late in a game are usually on the catcher. Inaccurate catchers with a big tag time added onto their pop time will be exposed when these situations come up during the season.
Whatever the time is, it should be added on to a catchers pop time, as the race is to the bag, not the fielders glove.
From what I have seen, the true test of a catchers ability to throw out runners is determined late in close games.
If it's the 9th inning in a tie game and the other team gets a runner on first, this is the moment the catcher needs to be fast and accurate. This is the time that pitchers focus more on holding runners close so stolen bases late in a game are usually on the catcher. Inaccurate catchers with a big tag time added onto their pop time will be exposed when these situations come up during the season.
At the very highest level they all get the tag down quickly. The pitchers all get the ball to the catcher fairly quickly. The difference - the pop times! We can't blame the catchers skills for the things he has no control over... Tag times and pitchers time to the catcher.
The pop time is what it is... The quicker you can accurately get the ball to 2B the better you are! The rest is all up to something other than the catcher's ability!
The pop time is what it is... The quicker you can accurately get the ball to 2B the better you are! The rest is all up to something other than the catcher's ability!
Key word being "accurately"
A Pop time of 1.7 does nothing if you are hitting the umpire in the head with it.
Speed - without skill - is garbage.
A Pop time of 1.7 does nothing if you are hitting the umpire in the head with it.
Speed - without skill - is garbage.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
At the very highest level they all get the tag down quickly. The pitchers all get the ball to the catcher fairly quickly. The difference - the pop times! We can't blame the catchers skills for the things he has no control over... Tag times and pitchers time to the catcher.
The pop time is what it is... The quicker you can accurately get the ball to 2B the better you are! The rest is all up to something other than the catcher's ability!
I agree completely...either a catcher can throw or he can't. If you aren't able to get the ball to second quickly, it doesn't matter what the pitcher does or how quick the tag is.
If the runner is 3.3 or 3.4... nothing matters more than speed. Accuracy doesn't metter if you can't get it there in time.
The 2.3 catcher has no chance, the 1.8 catcher might accidently throw it accurately! At least he has the ability that will give him a chance based on his pop time!
Accuracy is no good if it is too late to get the quick guys. Obviously the slower the pitcher is, the less accurate the throw is and the slower the tag is... the more difficult it is to throw out the runner. But the only ability that the catcher controls is his pop time. That part doesn't change because the pitcher is slow or fast or the receiver is slow with the tag.
The 2.3 catcher has no chance, the 1.8 catcher might accidently throw it accurately! At least he has the ability that will give him a chance based on his pop time!
Accuracy is no good if it is too late to get the quick guys. Obviously the slower the pitcher is, the less accurate the throw is and the slower the tag is... the more difficult it is to throw out the runner. But the only ability that the catcher controls is his pop time. That part doesn't change because the pitcher is slow or fast or the receiver is slow with the tag.
You can also ALWAYS improve your accuracy, but it is very hard to improve your pop time once you reach a certain level. Either you have a good arm or you don't to some extent. Yes, there is some room for arm strength improvement and room to improve the quickness of your feet, but it is much harder than having those and improving accuracy.
Is this thread running simultaneously on two different forums, this and the General forum?
While 2.0 is the standard all HS catchers want to strive to acheive, there are some out there who are considerably better than this. We have a couple of the top class of 2009 catchers in the country in our area, Max Stassi and Andrew Susac. Both are early commits, Stassi to UCLA and Susac to Oregon State. One of the main things they each do that seperates them from almost everyone else is shut down the running game. I haven't gotten any recent times on Stassi, but last year he was consistently in the 1.9s in game situations. Susac was clocked as low as 1.84 by Perfect Game in a showcase game, throwing out a runner. This year, Susac has risen to a whole new level, consistently under 1.95 and often in the 1.8s in games. Last week, in a high school playoff game that went 15 innings, Susac went 6 for 6.....not at the plate, but in throwing out runners at second base. At another playoff game tonight, I was sitting with a pitcher who plays for a Pac-10 team, and we got to talking about Susac. His opinion, after watching this entire Pac-10 season, was that Susac would be the starter, right now, for any team in the Pac-10. He felt that he's better than any catcher in the Pac-10 at this time. That's pretty high praise for a high school junior!
While 2.0 is the standard all HS catchers want to strive to acheive, there are some out there who are considerably better than this. We have a couple of the top class of 2009 catchers in the country in our area, Max Stassi and Andrew Susac. Both are early commits, Stassi to UCLA and Susac to Oregon State. One of the main things they each do that seperates them from almost everyone else is shut down the running game. I haven't gotten any recent times on Stassi, but last year he was consistently in the 1.9s in game situations. Susac was clocked as low as 1.84 by Perfect Game in a showcase game, throwing out a runner. This year, Susac has risen to a whole new level, consistently under 1.95 and often in the 1.8s in games. Last week, in a high school playoff game that went 15 innings, Susac went 6 for 6.....not at the plate, but in throwing out runners at second base. At another playoff game tonight, I was sitting with a pitcher who plays for a Pac-10 team, and we got to talking about Susac. His opinion, after watching this entire Pac-10 season, was that Susac would be the starter, right now, for any team in the Pac-10. He felt that he's better than any catcher in the Pac-10 at this time. That's pretty high praise for a high school junior!
Most - if not all - catchers at the higher levels (College and Pros) - have strong arms and quick releases. That goes without saying and they wouldnt be there if they didnt.
The thing that seperates the really good ones from the average ones is how quickly they can combine their throwing skills with accuracy.
Throwing quick and hard wont get the guy out if the throw isnt on the spot.
The thing that seperates the really good ones from the average ones is how quickly they can combine their throwing skills with accuracy.
Throwing quick and hard wont get the guy out if the throw isnt on the spot.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
At the very highest level they all get the tag down quickly. The pitchers all get the ball to the catcher fairly quickly. The difference - the pop times! We can't blame the catchers skills for the things he has no control over... Tag times and pitchers time to the catcher.
The pop time is what it is... The quicker you can accurately get the ball to 2B the better you are! The rest is all up to something other than the catcher's ability!
PG, it seems to me that you don't see the difference between a catcher who puts it on the bag and the catcher who bounces it in or throws it 3 feet left. Tag time is lost time. And that lost time is the catcher's fault. That fact seems pretty obvious to me. The catcher who can consistently keep tag times to a minimum or eliminate them completely is the catcher of choice. If, at the highest level, all middle infielders tag quickly and all pitchers get it to the plate quickly(your words), than all catchers at the highest level have sufficient pop times to get it to 2nd base quickly. The key question becomes, how close to 2nd base.
Many steals are up in the air until we see where the catcher has thrown the ball. An accurate throw versus an inaccurate throw is usually the difference between safe and out. How many times have we heard,'A good throw would have had him.'
Before we get to the catcher in a steal situation there are a number of things out the catchers control
01-- how well the pitcher holds the runner on at first
02-- how quick the pitcher is to the plate
03-- what pitch is thrown---is it off speed?
04-- location of the pitch when caught by the catcher
Basically all of the above have to be near perfect so a catcher can throw out the runner
A 1.8 pop time won't mean beans if the runner gets a great jump, the pitcher is slow to the plate and the pitch is in a bad location ie--down and inside
Throwing out a runner is a "team" effort between the pitcher , catcher and infielder taking the throw
01-- how well the pitcher holds the runner on at first
02-- how quick the pitcher is to the plate
03-- what pitch is thrown---is it off speed?
04-- location of the pitch when caught by the catcher
Basically all of the above have to be near perfect so a catcher can throw out the runner
A 1.8 pop time won't mean beans if the runner gets a great jump, the pitcher is slow to the plate and the pitch is in a bad location ie--down and inside
Throwing out a runner is a "team" effort between the pitcher , catcher and infielder taking the throw
quote:PG, it seems to me that you don't see the difference between a catcher who puts it on the bag and the catcher who bounces it in or throws it 3 feet left.
Dear old Dad,
What did I say that caused you to see it that way?
Every person in the world, even those who don't follow baseball, can easily see that throwing accuracy is very important. Even me!
The difference is... Accuracy doesn't mean much unless the ball gets there on time. Same thing holds true for an infielder throwing to 1B or an outfielder throwing out a runner trying to score. Obviously getting it there accurately is important.
quote:PG, it seems to me that you don't see the difference between a catcher who puts it on the bag and the catcher who bounces it in or throws it 3 feet left.
Maybe it's just me, but D.O.D. do you have any idea how condescending that sounds? Do you know who PG Staff is? I'll bet he has seen more catchers throw down to 2nd in the last 2 months than you have seen in your lifetime!
Oh, yeah, PG Staff sees no difference between an accurate throw and one that is three feet wide. give us a break!
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
A 1.8 pop time won't mean beans if the runner gets a great jump, the pitcher is slow to the plate and the pitch is in a bad location ie--down and inside
If I can find a catcher with a game 1.8 to 2b, and have a RHP who is 1.2 sec on a breaking pitch, mathematically the defense is odds on for 1 SBA the rest of the entire game.
Well, heck, Bear .....
If I can find a runner who is 2.7 from break to 2nd, he can steal at will!
The point being, 1.8/1.2 combos are as rare as a baserunner who can outrun it!
If I can find a runner who is 2.7 from break to 2nd, he can steal at will!
The point being, 1.8/1.2 combos are as rare as a baserunner who can outrun it!
quote:Originally posted by Rob Kremer:quote:PG, it seems to me that you don't see the difference between a catcher who puts it on the bag and the catcher who bounces it in or throws it 3 feet left.
Maybe it's just me, but D.O.D. do you have any idea how condescending that sounds?
Rob, I see what you mean. I will reword it to say "PG, it seems to me that you make no distinction between a catcher who puts it on the bag and the catcher who bounces it in or throws it 3 feet left." I don't want to insult anyone here, just make my point.
From PG's comment, which I quoted, he seemed to me to discount tag time as something that is within the catchers control. I disagree. And I just don't understand the logic that the pop time is enough of a measurement to determine which catcher is better at throwing out runners.
The pop time can give scouts and/or coaches a starting point to work from, but the better pop time doesn't always translate into the best chance to throw a runner out.
No matter how you slice it, pop times do not measure accuracy in any way.
I do agree that if a coach only wants catchers with a 2.0 or better pop time, the system in place now will give him the info he needs. But the catcher that got passed over because of a 2.05 pop time may be much better at throwing out runners than the 1.95 guy that the coach wanted. Why? Because accuracy greatly affects the time it takes to get the ball from the catchers mitt to the bag. And that is the real measurement of importance, not the pop time.
Quote from PGStaff,
Dear old Dad,
What did I say that caused you to see it that way?
PG, you said, "At the very highest level they all get the tag down quickly. The pitchers all get the ball to the catcher fairly quickly. The difference - the pop times! We can't blame the catchers skills for the things he has no control over... Tag times and pitchers time to the catcher.
I say, the catcher does have control over tag times.
The pop time is what it is... The quicker you can accurately get the ball to 2B the better you are! The rest is all up to something other than the catcher's ability!
I say, The pop time only measures how quickly one gets the ball to 2nd base, not how quickly and accurately one can.
It would be interesting to measure the catchers pop times at a PG showcase, then have them throw to 2nd base again but the stopwatch doesn't stop until the fielder touches the bag with his glove. I wonder if the same catchers would still have the best times. It might prove to be an interesting study. PG, you would be the first one measuring the pop to pop to pop time and who knows, it might become the new way of measuring pop times.
Ok, we understand that if there are two guys that throw 1.8, the guy that is more accurate is going to be better at throwing out runners given all other variables the same. The point PG is getting at I believe is that to be considered a good throwing catcher or to have a CHANCE at throwing out runners, the pop time is very important.
I was a shortstop and when I was in high school I threw 90+ across the diamond, but I didn't have a whole lot of accuracy. However, because I threw so hard, scouts and colleges took notice and I was drafted and went to a major D-1 as a result of my arm. Who do you think would stand out at a showcase, given both shortstops have good hands and feet, a player who throws 80 accurately, or the person who is throwing 92 and is wild? I can tell you the kid who is throwing 92 will be noticed by EVERYONE.
PG is correct to say being able to get the ball where it is going in time is very important. Accuracy will most likely come; as wild as I was when I was younger, I was very accurate throwing hard in college. This is the same for catchers..if you throw a 1.8, you can work on your accuracy, but very few catchers can go from a 2.05 to a 1.8 in college.
I was a shortstop and when I was in high school I threw 90+ across the diamond, but I didn't have a whole lot of accuracy. However, because I threw so hard, scouts and colleges took notice and I was drafted and went to a major D-1 as a result of my arm. Who do you think would stand out at a showcase, given both shortstops have good hands and feet, a player who throws 80 accurately, or the person who is throwing 92 and is wild? I can tell you the kid who is throwing 92 will be noticed by EVERYONE.
PG is correct to say being able to get the ball where it is going in time is very important. Accuracy will most likely come; as wild as I was when I was younger, I was very accurate throwing hard in college. This is the same for catchers..if you throw a 1.8, you can work on your accuracy, but very few catchers can go from a 2.05 to a 1.8 in college.
The key is throwing the baserunner and the hitter out---for an infielder a quick release can overcome lack of RADAR VELOCITY---the key is outs
quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
The key is throwing the baserunner and the hitter out---for an infielder a quick release can overcome lack of RADAR VELOCITY---the key is outs
I do not disagree, but the radar velocity will get you noticed and give you more opportunities. A strong arm for a shortstop is crucial...there are very few David Ecksteins in the world.
DoD,
Believe it or not all scouts understand that 1.8 on the 1B side of the bag is better than 1.8 three feet wide of the bag. Believe it or not, we even understand the importance of accuracy.
Maybe this will clear it up...
1.8 that is anywhere that can be caught and a tag put down will always be better than a 2.3 right on the money. The quicker the pop time the "less" accurate a catcher needs to be.
Regarding the key being whether you throw the runner out or not. That is true, but a poor catcher with a poor pop time can throw out a poor runner! That is good, he threw out the runner, but he will not get any interest from scouts or college coaches. They have the stop watch on him! The quick guys will run him to death.
I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. This is just the way things are. The idea is to have the ability to throw out the quick guys at the highest possible level. If the runner is 3.3 to 2B and the pitcher is an amazing 1.2 to the plate. It takes 2.00 and "accurate" to even have a chance. If a catcher can't do that, nothing else matters in that case. The slow guys seldom steal bases at the highest levels.
I'm not discounting tag time, but if we are talking tag times, some middle infielders are better at that than others. Everyone notices accuracy on throws. Hard to miss that if you're watching.
Yes, it is teamwork, it takes the pitcher and the tag along with the catcher. However, it has to be a catcher who is capable of getting it there (that means accurately) in time.
Believe it or not all scouts understand that 1.8 on the 1B side of the bag is better than 1.8 three feet wide of the bag. Believe it or not, we even understand the importance of accuracy.
Maybe this will clear it up...
1.8 that is anywhere that can be caught and a tag put down will always be better than a 2.3 right on the money. The quicker the pop time the "less" accurate a catcher needs to be.
Regarding the key being whether you throw the runner out or not. That is true, but a poor catcher with a poor pop time can throw out a poor runner! That is good, he threw out the runner, but he will not get any interest from scouts or college coaches. They have the stop watch on him! The quick guys will run him to death.
I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. This is just the way things are. The idea is to have the ability to throw out the quick guys at the highest possible level. If the runner is 3.3 to 2B and the pitcher is an amazing 1.2 to the plate. It takes 2.00 and "accurate" to even have a chance. If a catcher can't do that, nothing else matters in that case. The slow guys seldom steal bases at the highest levels.
I'm not discounting tag time, but if we are talking tag times, some middle infielders are better at that than others. Everyone notices accuracy on throws. Hard to miss that if you're watching.
Yes, it is teamwork, it takes the pitcher and the tag along with the catcher. However, it has to be a catcher who is capable of getting it there (that means accurately) in time.
I've been following this thread for a while now and wish to add some commentary in support of what PG is saying. Yeah, all these things matter, but when you're evaluating positions, you look at different things. For a pitcher, you measure his velocity of his fastball, as well as secondary pitches. You also look at command, ability to change speeds, pitchability. You might note his time to home from the stretch, but that is only a supplemental note, if mentioned at all. For an infielder, you're going to note how he fields, moves to his left and right. How he throws, can he make the throw from the hole or behind 2nd, that kind of stuff. NOBODY is going to measure or care how he tags runners. It is way down on the list of things to worry about, compared to the other aspects of playing either position.
For a catcher, its a bit different. Throwing out runners is one of his primary responsibilities. Therefore, pop time is an essential measurement of a catcher's ability.
If you're selecting a pitcher based on his time to home, you don't know what you're supposed to be evaluating. In the big picture, that doesn't amount to a pimple on Boog Powell's butt!
For a catcher, its a bit different. Throwing out runners is one of his primary responsibilities. Therefore, pop time is an essential measurement of a catcher's ability.
If you're selecting a pitcher based on his time to home, you don't know what you're supposed to be evaluating. In the big picture, that doesn't amount to a pimple on Boog Powell's butt!
quote:Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
In the big picture, that doesn't amount to a pimple on Boog Powell's butt!
I do know that I won't be pondering on that big picture today or tommorrow!
wHO remembers the Boog vs Hondo days!
(like it was yesterday!)
Boog, 1965-71 180 homers 649 rbi, All Star,'68-'71
Hondo, 1965-71 237 homers 650 rbi, All Star,'68-'71
Boog pw = 6-4, 240.
Hondo pw = 6-7, 255.
Hondo arrived from LAD in '65, (being a NL ROY in LA) and led the AL in taters in '68 & '70 (with 44)and a career high 48 bombs in '69 (and at long ball unfriendly DC Stadium).
Boog played with the O's from '61-'74, with a stint at CLE (F Robinson saved him), & finished
in '77 with LAD.
Today, hanging out Camden Yards (small crowds this year), at Boog's Barb-B-Que is a treat for me when going to the new "old" park. Of course the lines with attendance down are not as long this year.
When in town, Boog's popularity with the loyal 60's fans remains undiminished. Yet ardent fans who watched the most successful team of 1958-85 continue a downward spiral that will probably last for 25+ years.
Of course Hondo looks great, continues to maintain his stroke, and at 71+, can handle a fungo while roving the minor leagues with NYY.
cheers