Hs recruitng - today's world

@RHP_Parent posted:

I didn't know that 30% rule.  I'm baffled as well. Penn had a great team this year, particularly at 3B and C.  Of course their 2nd starter will be drafted next year for sure, but he's a sophomore this year.  I wonder if those other players just had different career goals.

The 30% rule is one of the criteria (one of three I believe) used in determining eligibility for a NCAA hardship waiver--one form of which is commonly known as the "medical-redshirt" waiver. I think they just used this as a way to grant the extra year for 2021.

So not many Padroia's or Altuve's taken.   Less than 10% of players taken in draft are under 6', in fact there are more 6'5" and above then 5'11" and under.

Check out Caleb Durbin. ‘18 HS

Wash U 5’6 175

14th round ‘21

Yankees AA IF prospect

Great hitter, solid SB, low SO %

https://www.milb.com/player/caleb-durbin-702332

There’s a possible Altuve - Pedroi

Goosegg or others, Thanks for info. Helpful.

If pursuing Ivy or Patriot, should a rising Junior also attend some big tourneys (WWBA16u, PBR16u at LakePointe, Boston Open, DN Super 17s) to get in front of peer coaches/ build awareness/ populate the databases w velo ?In addition, to attending the on-campus camps hosted by those various schools.

Does it build street credibility among the Ivy/Patriot coaches to perform well at a large tourney? Do the big tourneys help validate that in the process of their recruiting?  Do they like to know they are getting P5 caliber baseball player but Ivy caliber student?   

@TV posted:

Goosegg or others, Thanks for info. Helpful.

If pursuing Ivy or Patriot, should a rising Junior also attend some big tourneys (WWBA16u, PBR16u at LakePointe, Boston Open, DN Super 17s) to get in front of peer coaches/ build awareness/ populate the databases w velo ?In addition, to attending the on-campus camps hosted by those various schools.

Does it build street credibility among the Ivy/Patriot coaches to perform well at a large tourney? Do the big tourneys help validate that in the process of their recruiting?  Do they like to know they are getting P5 caliber baseball player but Ivy caliber student?   

For my kid, his team skipped 2020 WWBA and played DN and there were some coaches there. For 2021 DN and WWBA I can confirm there were Ivy/Patriot/HAD3 recruiters present.

@TV posted:

Goosegg or others, Thanks for info. Helpful.

If pursuing Ivy or Patriot, should a rising Junior also attend some big tourneys (WWBA16u, PBR16u at LakePointe, Boston Open, DN Super 17s) to get in front of peer coaches/ build awareness/ populate the databases w velo ?In addition, to attending the on-campus camps hosted by those various schools.

Does it build street credibility among the Ivy/Patriot coaches to perform well at a large tourney? Do the big tourneys help validate that in the process of their recruiting?  Do they like to know they are getting P5 caliber baseball player but Ivy caliber student?   

Big tourneys aren't necessary, but I think if you are already on their radar it can be a bonus especially if you are being recruited or have other D1 offers in your back pocket.  My son did attend PG WWBA and was introduced to  an Ivy coach by a mutual friend.  They saw him play, and began recruiting him going forward.  They would eventually offer.

Just my experience.

Yes, for my son playing in the WWBA/Lakepoint tourneys the summer before senior year made the difference in Ivy recruitment.  He was recruited after just a few innings.  Most P5 kids are already committed, so the Ivy coaches are looking for additional uncommitted players with high grades to round out their seven spots.  It is also easier for them to evaluate grades as a rising senior than as a rising sophomore.  The recruiting coach called the travel ball coach for my player's number, and then there was an initial recruiting conversation right during the Lakepoint tourney. These outings seem to have made a difference because different Ivy coaches had observed my son during the HS season in local venues but were less interested.  He may have just improved, but I think the timing/level of competition is a factor.

The Ivy League is a great option IF your coach can promise to get your player into a great summer league. Rising sophomores are often placed in the Futures League, the NECBL, and a few (not as many) leagues out west. Most Ivy coaches have connections to the Cape for placement the summer prior to the player's draft year.  I believe that all of the Ivy League players drafted or signed this year played at least one stint at the Cape.

Also, as a follow-up to the conversation about Penn, the 3B player tweeted that he took his name out of the draft in order to finish school.  .  . 

@RHP_Parent posted:

Also, as a follow-up to the conversation about Penn, the 3B player tweeted that he took his name out of the draft in order to finish school.  .  .

It is very likely his 'advisor' determined where teams were looking to draft him and he decided to finish school instead. I think that's the correct and wise decision because:

1. He graduates from his Ivy institution--the reason he chose Ivy over other D1 schools.

2. He has the ability to increase his draft stock during his senior year.

The last year or two (and for at least next year's draft) this is very possible and differs from the traditional Ivy experience because senior have or have had one or two years of eligibility remaining and thus some draft leverage.

The one Ivy draftee who has signed already did receive the maximum allowable (without team penalty) for rounds 11-20.

Of course this in not unique to Ivy players as you will see plenty of college seniors signing for more than they have in pre-covid drafts.

I'll confirm that at WWBA almost all Ivy's were there, plus GTown, JHopkins, Middlebury, few other HAD3's

@RHP_Parent posted:

The Ivy League is a great option IF your coach can promise to get your player into a great summer league. Rising sophomores are often placed in the Futures League, the NECBL, and a few (not as many) leagues out west. Most Ivy coaches have connections to the Cape for placement the summer prior to the player's draft year.  I believe that all of the Ivy League players drafted or signed this year played at least one stint at the Cape.

In my experience I think the Ivy is not very good in this area.

My recommendation to players is to control your own destiny. Do your own research and try to place yourself on a summer team of your choosing.

While this may not work for all players--as some coaches want to control everything regarding their players, a lot of coaches are really not very good at finding summer teams. They rely on their 'contacts' and those contacts may be limited. Be your own advocate and make an attempt to find a team for yourself. Of course that summer team coach/manager may want to clear it with your coach first but at least you will have gotten the wheels moving.

TV:

Goosegg or others, Thanks for info. Helpful.

If pursuing Ivy or Patriot, should a rising Junior also attend some big tourneys (WWBA16u, PBR16u at LakePointe, Boston Open, DN Super 17s) to get in front of peer coaches/ build awareness/ populate the databases w velo ?In addition, to attending the on-campus camps hosted by those various schools.

Does it build street credibility among the Ivy/Patriot coaches to perform well at a large tourney? Do the big tourneys help validate that in the process of their recruiting?  Do they like to know they are getting P5 caliber baseball player but Ivy caliber student? 

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

I'm sorry if this is a little dense of me... When people refer to  WWBA  for a  junior (2025), which specific event are they referring to?   There are quite a few WWBA events in the summer/fall.   For example, there is a 17u "underclass world championship" 9/28-10/2 in Fort Myers.   

Thank you.

I was referring to the 16u WWBA in Georgia held in early July, mostly composed of 2025s looking to get recruited ahead of the Aug 1 deadline (new rule).  The 17u WWBA is finishing up now and mostly composed of 2024s, a lot of  D1 programs have already finished their 2024 recruiting (maybe they can squeeze 1 more in) and some D3 have just started.

Outside a couple of exclusive, special invite events I saw the 17u national championships in East Cobb (location when my son was 17u) as the big event. It was loaded with scouts.

@RJM posted:

Outside a couple of exclusive, special invite events I saw the 17u national championships in East Cobb (location when my son was 17u) as the big event. It was loaded with scouts.

As of last year it still was - can't speak to it anymore as all mine are in college and no longer attend. Pretty much all the D1s worth anything were there, even the Ivys. The local schools from less than 10 miles away were at his games in GA (a flight away) watching.

The special events like the WS, Jupiter, etc are much better talent wise because there are less teams and it is heavily concentrated but I always thought the WWBA in July was the Super Bowl for travel baseball.

@TV posted:

The 17u WWBA is finishing up now and mostly composed of 2024s, a lot of  D1 programs have already finished their 2024 recruiting (maybe they can squeeze 1 more in) and some D3 have just started.

It's that time of year when many coaches are at the big events  watching their committed players that will sign in November.

My son played in the 17U WWBA in 2014.  When two of the "big name teams" matched up, it wasn't uncommon to see 100+ coaches/scouts at a game.  Golf carts were 10 deep behind the plate at times

@TPM posted:

It's that time of year when many coaches are at the big events  watching their committed players that will sign in November.

That’s true. But they are also looking at their committed players and deciding which ones they want to decommit.

We often talk about recruiting as if the experience is consistent across the board - and it isn’t. Depending on the talent level of the player, the recruiting experience can vary drastically. IMO (and this is a generalization) these are the labels that get assigned to HS players looking to be recruited: D1 P5, D1 mid major/D2, JuCo, HA D3, D3, NAIA. Depending on which category you fall in you could drag a ton of interest or very little. The group that a player falls into at 16 is often not the same as when he is 18 or 21. But a key part of successful recruiting is that the player/parents understand the right pond to be fishing in. That includes making good decisions about the right travel ball team to play for and choosing the right individual events to attend. And by right I mean getting exposed to schools at the proper level for YOU. If the right level of school is targeted from the beginning the odds of being successfully recruited go way up. By far (and I mean by a million miles) the most common mistake I see is kids & parents thinking they are D1 P5 or D1 mid major material when they are not.

Adbono - Thanks for the feedback.   

As a follow-up,  how important are relationships between a travel program coach and the college coaches in terms of creating success ?  fishing in the right pond, pre-selling or positioning the player in front of the correct audience

or travel programs that have successfully placed players on college rosters, will the recruiting coach build on that prior success look for more talent in that same org again?

Vs.   

the "if you are good enough they will find you" approach of showcasing talent in front of large audiences and hoping someone will notice?

@TV posted:

Adbono - Thanks for the feedback.   

As a follow-up,  how important are relationships between a travel program coach and the college coaches in terms of creating success ?  fishing in the right pond, pre-selling or positioning the player in front of the correct audience

or travel programs that have successfully placed players on college rosters, will the recruiting coach build on that prior success look for more talent in that same org again?

Vs.   

the "if you are good enough they will find you" approach of showcasing talent in front of large audiences and hoping someone will notice?

Fair question and I would answer it like this. IF your travel program has a proven track record, and credibility with college coaches (at the right level for YOU) having them pre-sell to college coaches is very effective. Much more so than “if you are good enough someone will notice.” However, if your travel ball org lacks credibility (ie they oversell the ability of their players, don’t have relationships with college coaches, etc) it can actually hurt a player’s chances. If someone tells me that a P is throwing 88-90 and has plus secondary stuff I’m probably gonna go see him if I can because that is right in our recruiting wheelhouse. If I show up and the kid is 84-85 w/ nothing special behind it I’m not gonna be happy. And whoever told me about the kid will lose credibility and I won’t listen to them next time. It takes a while to know who to trust but there are a few travel ball orgs in North Texas that I now avoid altogether because I don’t trust their coaches to be honest. IMO players would be better served if parents did a better job of vetting travel ball orgs before they join them.

@TV posted:

As a follow-up,  how important are relationships between a travel program coach and the college coaches in terms of creating success ?  fishing in the right pond, pre-selling or positioning the player in front of the correct audience

or travel programs that have successfully placed players on college rosters, will the recruiting coach build on that prior success look for more talent in that same org again?

Vs.   

the "if you are good enough they will find you" approach of showcasing talent in front of large audiences and hoping someone will notice?

The vast majority are not 6'5" and throwing 95.  If you are middle-of-the-pack "could-be-mid-major-D1", you really do need someone with credibility to (a) tell you what the right level is, and (b) to communicate that to the right college coaches.

At the D3 level it's a lot less about the travel coach, and more about the player going to showcases or school-based camps.  They have unrestricted roster numbers, so in theory they can take as many players as want to go there.  If you just show up and have what they want, it can work - but having a travel coach contact the schools doesn't hurt, especially if you need the coach's help with admissions.

@adbono posted:

Fair question and I would answer it like this. IF your travel program has a proven track record, and credibility with college coaches (at the right level for YOU) having them pre-sell to college coaches is very effective. Much more so than “if you are good enough someone will notice.” However, if your travel ball org lacks credibility (ie they oversell the ability of their players, don’t have relationships with college coaches, etc) it can actually hurt a player’s chances. If someone tells me that a P is throwing 88-90 and has plus secondary stuff I’m probably gonna go see him if I can because that is right in our recruiting wheelhouse. If I show up and the kid is 84-85 w/ nothing special behind it I’m not gonna be happy. And whoever told me about the kid will lose credibility and I won’t listen to them next time. It takes a while to know who to trust but there are a few travel ball orgs in North Texas that I now avoid altogether because I don’t trust their coaches to be honest. IMO players would be better served if parents did a better job of vetting travel ball orgs before they join them.

Woukd you say recruiting services oversell players because they don’t really know their talent, often haven’t seen them play, only know their metrics and not their instincts and don’t have a grasp on the player’s motivation (heart and guts)?

@RJM posted:

Woukd you say recruiting services oversell players because they don’t really know their talent, often haven’t seen them play, only know their metrics and not their instincts and don’t have a grasp on the player’s motivation (heart and guts)?

If we are talking only about recruiting services I would say that the bad ones (which is most of them) oversell their players for all of those reasons. They try to be all things to all people and don’t have much expertise. What the good ones (like Play to Win for example) do differently is that they specialize in a niche and really know that segment of the market. They screen their applicants. Part of their interview process is a skills evaluation. They also interview your coaches before taking you on as a client. Then they watch you play as if they were a school scouting you. Then they prepare an action plan that maps out the events to attend. They help develop a list of schools that are a good fit based on academics, baseball, and social fit. They contact the coaches from these schools to notify them of the events you attend and presell you to these coaches. Since HA is a small subset of college baseball they actually do know these coaches and have relationships with them. PTW will actually send their representative to some events along with you. After the event their is a debrief to discuss the results. How you did, who is interested, and who is not. They then initiate discussions with the interested parties, help with analyzing the pros & cons of each offer, assist with the admissions process, and maintain contact with the coaching staff until the school has accepted the player. The downside is that they are expensive. Their service costs in the neighborhood of 10k. But they deliver. If you have a good high academic player and you can afford their fees (plus the travel) they are worth it. Can you do it all yourself? Yes you can - with the exception of tapping into existing Coach relationships. And that’s a big exception. This is not a plug for scouting services. I think most of them sell snake oil. This isn’t a plug for PTW either. It’s just a group that I’m familiar with that is good at what they do. And I chose to use them as a way to respond to your question.

I agree with Adbono. I’ve seen some guys take thousands from a family and spray and pray with sending the kid out. I’ve also watched some refuse to take a kid as a client because they didn’t feel the goal was realistic. The good ones can call any coach in their contact list and get a client a look. They don’t push a kid to a school unless the kid has what the coach is looking for.

PTW and Showball are partners who have changed college recruiting.

Everything adbono has posted is 100% accurate.

I worked for a fairly big Travel Program a few years back.  The profit margins on the actual teams is relatively small

The bread and butter of these programs is lessons, clinics, and showcases.  That’s where the real money is made.  And their #1 advertisements are D1 commits and Draft picks, on the website and on the facility wall.

Johnny Sixpack buying lesson packages for 9 year old Johnny Jr is their key, as Johnny Sixpack buys into the concept that the only way Johnny Jr will ever get that D1 commitment and keep up with the Jones’, or even make the varsity team in high school, is weekly lessons, hitting/pitching clinics etc etc

There are plenty of players who are borderline D1 guys who would be way better off at a JUCO, or a D2 or even a perennial powerhouse D3.  And the travel program knows that, and knows that the kid will probably end up transferring to a JUCO, but they push that kid into the D1 commit because they want their website to say “17 D1 commits in the 2023 class” etc etc

Johnny Sixpack doesn’t know how good San Jac is, but he’s impressed with the mid major D1 commits, and out comes the credit card to buy Johnny Jr another lesson package

During a long break between 14u games I walked over to watch part of a 9u game. They were part of an academy that puts all its 17u A team in D1. While chatting with a few dads they believed because their kids were in the program at 9u they were going to play D1.

I knew someone whose kid played for the 17u A team. He said there were only four holdovers from the 13u A team. 13u was his son’s first year in the program.

HA recruiting is its own thing.  But 10K?  I guess it proves you will be able to pay the tuition.  Your regular travel coach, even if he doesn't have a particular connection to HA D3 schools, can still contact a D3 coach with a recommendation before a camp or showcase -  for us that seemed to work, combined with the right baseball and academic qualifications.  So I'm glad we didn't stumble into that particular 10K niche.

@RJM posted:

During a long break between 14u games I walked over to watch part of a 9u game. They were part of an academy that puts all its 17u A team in D1. While chatting with a few dads they believed because their kids were in the program at 9u they were going to play D1.

I knew someone whose kid played for the 17u A team. He said there were only four holdovers from the 13u A team. 13u was his son’s first year in the program.

This is a key point.  If you look at many of the 17u programs with kids going to D1 or any other for that matter, many times that roster is made up of a good percentage of kids that are playing for that program for the first time.  And often several programs claim ownership of the player when showing their commitments on their webpage.  Players often search for the 17u program that has the best recruiting help and programs search for players who are recruit-able and offer them a spot.

Rarely are players DEVELOPED from a young age in the program.  Usually at about 13/14u they make the determination if a kid is big or skilled enough to continue in their program and start searching for kids from other local programs to recruit.  15u is definitely a cutoff.