Does anyone have strong opinions on high school players working out with weighted baseballs to help improve pitching velocity?
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Waste of time.
If you want to improve velocity, develop your core muscles and don't ignore decelerators, like lats, to prevent injury.
If you want to improve velocity, develop your core muscles and don't ignore decelerators, like lats, to prevent injury.
If you're curious, do some digging. There are opinions on both side of the fence, and some are well-considered. I happen to agree with a lot of what I see atDriveline Baseball, mainly because the guy is doing a lot of primary research as well as reviewing almost all of the relevant literature to inform his own pitcher development practice. For his case studies, his subjects have increased velocity using weighted balls as part of a comprehensive program that includes everything from lifting to soft tissue management.
Don't think it is a waste of time at all but should be done in a specific program and combined with the core workouts mentioned along with long toss program.
The research I have done weighs, no pun intended, toward the weighted balls as you guys suggest in a specific program and never from a mound.....
CPLZ, I can't find many articles that speak to the downside alhtough I know it isn't a magic pill as shown on the Real Sports segment....
My son is working out this fall mainly on his core, back and legs along with a long toss regime and a little running.....
The articles I have researched suggest a overload/underload with weighted balls at 4 to 6 ounces about 3 times a week....
However, there are other articles that suggest heavier balls, but I asssume you would have to change mechanics to facilitate.....
His goal is to improve his arm strength and wants to gain 3 to 4 mph on his fb....Since last August he has improved by 6 mph......
CPLZ, I can't find many articles that speak to the downside alhtough I know it isn't a magic pill as shown on the Real Sports segment....
My son is working out this fall mainly on his core, back and legs along with a long toss regime and a little running.....
The articles I have researched suggest a overload/underload with weighted balls at 4 to 6 ounces about 3 times a week....
However, there are other articles that suggest heavier balls, but I asssume you would have to change mechanics to facilitate.....
His goal is to improve his arm strength and wants to gain 3 to 4 mph on his fb....Since last August he has improved by 6 mph......
Based on what I'm hearing in this thread, most MLB pitchers must have used weighted balls in high school?
SultanofSwat, Not sure what you are "hearing" in this thread but not really sure how you made that statement as I don't think anyone said that at all.
There is a bunch of stuff on weighted baseballs in the pitching forum, as well as you can do a historical search and find some more threads there. Steve Elis' site has some stuff also.
There is evidence that they improve performance, but I would wait until after implementing a structured workout program, a good long toss program, and physical maturity. Also any type of speed/over/under training needs to be time phased within the overall plans of an athlete.
There is evidence that they improve performance, but I would wait until after implementing a structured workout program, a good long toss program, and physical maturity. Also any type of speed/over/under training needs to be time phased within the overall plans of an athlete.
Steve Ellis is one of the sites that we have reviewed and from his experience have pretty much trusted the information........
Thanks for the input...
Thanks for the input...
do you believe in over load under load..if you do then weighted baseballs should help
quote:Originally posted by wogdoggy:
do you believe in over load under load..if you do then weighted baseballs should help
That's right. If you believe that overload training is used to build up a muscle (who doesn't?), and that an extra one ounce will build a muscle, then weighted baseballs should help!
/ sorry, couldn't help myself.
Now, if you believe that weighted baseballs might help ensure a complete forearm bounce, and therefore improve your technique, then using weighted baseballs, as a drill only, may help.
/ I have no idea how a 1 oz. underload could help, so I can't help them there.
quote:Originally posted by SultanofSwat:quote:Originally posted by wogdoggy:
do you believe in over load under load..if you do then weighted baseballs should help
That's right. If you believe that overload training is used to build up a muscle (who doesn't), and that an extra one ounce will build a muscle, then weighted baseballs should help!
/ sorry, couldn't help myself.
Now, if you believe that weighted baseballs might help ensure a complete forearm bounce, and therefore improve your technique, then using weighted baseballs, as a drill only, may help.
/ I have no idea how a 1 oz. underload could help, so I can't help them there.
the underload is really more important and devolops the whip..my experience is dont toss the heavy ones at full blown arm action..toos the ounce under with normal whip..8 ounce maximum on the upside.
This fluctuation in weights is dangerous. How can one have repeatable mechanics using different weighted balls? Vary the mechanics and you are asking for shoulder problems, IMHO.
Dumb and dangerous.
Dumb and dangerous.
We had some kids try the weighted ball excercise. I can't really say anything good or bad about it.
However, it is far from unknown, so if it were something that worked real well I would expect nearly every college and MLB club would be utilizing it by now.
Just out of curiousity, who is the poster boy for weighted balls?
However, it is far from unknown, so if it were something that worked real well I would expect nearly every college and MLB club would be utilizing it by now.
Just out of curiousity, who is the poster boy for weighted balls?
quote:
However, it is far from unknown, so if it were something that worked real well I would expect nearly every college and MLB club would be utilizing it by now.
Nice point PG, if it were successful you better beleive that college players as well as pros would be tossing those puppies everyday!
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Just out of curiousity, who is the poster boy for weighted balls?
My guess is that Ron Wolforth would be the current proponent.
SoS, I believe the weight variations come from a +/- 20% load on a std 5.5 oz ball. The Wolforth routines do greater numbers, but I am not that familiar with everything he has in his workouts.
I was thinking "poster boy" such as a current star pitcher like a Strasburg or someone like that.
I guess that would be Trevor Bauer, since he has been a long time student of Wolforth.
To be accurate, I don't believe that anyone in particular is saying that weighted balls are some magic bullet, they are just one aspect of the Wolforth program.
PG, one other comment regarding your observation of professional baseball adopting a particular training program, Jaeger's long toss program was routinely criticized by many pro programs a few years ago(some still do today with the whole 120 ft limit) but quite a few are now utilizing his approach. Same with Yoga, many organizations are now sponsoring the use of Yoga where it was looked down upon a few years ago. Same with Kettlebells and I am sure there are some others.
I have not really studied training methods and how they start and get adopted but I would guess in general new approaches start at the fringe and move their way into mainstream over time as they prove to be successful, or not.
To be accurate, I don't believe that anyone in particular is saying that weighted balls are some magic bullet, they are just one aspect of the Wolforth program.
PG, one other comment regarding your observation of professional baseball adopting a particular training program, Jaeger's long toss program was routinely criticized by many pro programs a few years ago(some still do today with the whole 120 ft limit) but quite a few are now utilizing his approach. Same with Yoga, many organizations are now sponsoring the use of Yoga where it was looked down upon a few years ago. Same with Kettlebells and I am sure there are some others.
I have not really studied training methods and how they start and get adopted but I would guess in general new approaches start at the fringe and move their way into mainstream over time as they prove to be successful, or not.
quote:Originally posted by BOF:
I have not really studied training methods and how they start and get adopted but I would guess in general new approaches start at the fringe and move their way into mainstream over time as they prove to be successful, or not.
Very true, however, weighted balls do not fit the definition of new approaches. Although, like you r Jaeger example, there may be innovation in technique to an old program that makes it more accepted, to the best of my knowledge, that is not the case with weighted balls.
Long toss has been generally accepted as a method for increasing arm strength for a long time now. Jaeger developed a system for long toss that has worked for many. He has many "poster boys".
I've seen pitchers use many different forms of long toss and most successful pitchers don't really use long distances (over 120'). Others have thrown 300' or more, even as far as they possibly can.
I first saw weighted balls being used about 15 years ago. I didn't see any significant improvement in that pitcher. That said, I know there are people much more knowledgable than myself who claim weighted baseballs do work. So I can't say anything bad about it.
The things that have been proven to increase velocity over the long run are...
1. Mechanics
2. Age
3. Size and strength
4. Arm speed
To me... mechanics are the most important, but with the understanding there is no cookie cutter mechanics. The very best mechanics are not the same for every pitcher. Great mechanics for one, might hold back someone else. You must blend standard good mechanics with individual ability to get the best results.
people figure out how they can best throw an object. Their body tells them. From that point on improvement should revolve around the players "natural" ability. Don't mess with Mother Nature! Bob Feller used a baseball and the side of a barn to gain velocity.
Often I hear tips about strengthening the arm or upper body. We have all heard the advice regarding the importance of the lower body. Of course the entire body is important, but to me the secret is what happens inbetween the top and the bottom. I believe the most important part of throwing or improving throwing involves the stomach (your belly).
These days almost anything can be attributed to success when it comes to gaining velocity. I could do nothing but feed a good 15 year old pitcher 10 Snickers a day and guess what?... He will most likely gain a lot of velocity over the next couple years. Maybe I could start the "Snicker Velocity Plan" using that kid as an example.
Hey, every kid is suppose to improve. It would be odd if they didn't. Some just improve more than others and at different times.
I have nothing against anything out there that can help someone improve. However, if there is a "Magic Bullet", it would be called natural ability. With desire and work that bullet seems to be very successful.
I've seen pitchers use many different forms of long toss and most successful pitchers don't really use long distances (over 120'). Others have thrown 300' or more, even as far as they possibly can.
I first saw weighted balls being used about 15 years ago. I didn't see any significant improvement in that pitcher. That said, I know there are people much more knowledgable than myself who claim weighted baseballs do work. So I can't say anything bad about it.
The things that have been proven to increase velocity over the long run are...
1. Mechanics
2. Age
3. Size and strength
4. Arm speed
To me... mechanics are the most important, but with the understanding there is no cookie cutter mechanics. The very best mechanics are not the same for every pitcher. Great mechanics for one, might hold back someone else. You must blend standard good mechanics with individual ability to get the best results.
people figure out how they can best throw an object. Their body tells them. From that point on improvement should revolve around the players "natural" ability. Don't mess with Mother Nature! Bob Feller used a baseball and the side of a barn to gain velocity.
Often I hear tips about strengthening the arm or upper body. We have all heard the advice regarding the importance of the lower body. Of course the entire body is important, but to me the secret is what happens inbetween the top and the bottom. I believe the most important part of throwing or improving throwing involves the stomach (your belly).
These days almost anything can be attributed to success when it comes to gaining velocity. I could do nothing but feed a good 15 year old pitcher 10 Snickers a day and guess what?... He will most likely gain a lot of velocity over the next couple years. Maybe I could start the "Snicker Velocity Plan" using that kid as an example.
Hey, every kid is suppose to improve. It would be odd if they didn't. Some just improve more than others and at different times.
I have nothing against anything out there that can help someone improve. However, if there is a "Magic Bullet", it would be called natural ability. With desire and work that bullet seems to be very successful.
Well put PG and 100% agree. But for the heck of it I'm going to give that snicker thing a try for myself.
quote:These days almost anything can be attributed to success when it comes to gaining velocity. I could do nothing but feed a good 15 year old pitcher 10 Snickers a day and guess what?... He will most likely gain a lot of velocity over the next couple years. Maybe I could start the "Snicker Velocity Plan" using that kid as an example.
PGStaff,
Which type of snicker bar is the best, peanut or caramel or etc. ?
I prefer "Baby Ruth" candy bars. They have really improved greatly over the years. They're some what hard to find, but latch on to one if you can and let me know what you think.
It's a proven fact... All extremely talented and healthy 15 year olds will definitely gain velocity if they eat just one "Baby Ruth" candy bar each day for a full year.
I know I shouldn't give away these valuable secrets to gaining velocity for free.
It's a proven fact... All extremely talented and healthy 15 year olds will definitely gain velocity if they eat just one "Baby Ruth" candy bar each day for a full year.
I know I shouldn't give away these valuable secrets to gaining velocity for free.
Underload/Overload training has been proven to work in track and field. There are studies that show that it works wrt throwing for high schoolers but there are also those who would dispute those studies.
Trevor Bauer would seem to be the poster boy for underload/overload throwing but he also is the poster boy for long toss and just plain hard work among other things so how does one know what contributed the most?
JMO, but it can work for some players.
Trevor Bauer would seem to be the poster boy for underload/overload throwing but he also is the poster boy for long toss and just plain hard work among other things so how does one know what contributed the most?
JMO, but it can work for some players.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
Long toss has been generally accepted as a method for increasing arm strength for a long time now. Jaeger developed a system for long toss that has worked for many. He has many "poster boys".
I've seen pitchers use many different forms of long toss and most successful pitchers don't really use long distances (over 120'). Others have thrown 300' or more, even as far as they possibly can.
I first saw weighted balls being used about 15 years ago. I didn't see any significant improvement in that pitcher. That said, I know there are people much more knowledgable than myself who claim weighted baseballs do work. So I can't say anything bad about it.
The things that have been proven to increase velocity over the long run are...
1. Mechanics
2. Age
3. Size and strength
4. Arm speed
To me... mechanics are the most important, but with the understanding there is no cookie cutter mechanics. The very best mechanics are not the same for every pitcher. Great mechanics for one, might hold back someone else. You must blend standard good mechanics with individual ability to get the best results.
people figure out how they can best throw an object. Their body tells them. From that point on improvement should revolve around the players "natural" ability. Don't mess with Mother Nature! Bob Feller used a baseball and the side of a barn to gain velocity.
Often I hear tips about strengthening the arm or upper body. We have all heard the advice regarding the importance of the lower body. Of course the entire body is important, but to me the secret is what happens inbetween the top and the bottom. I believe the most important part of throwing or improving throwing involves the stomach (your belly).
These days almost anything can be attributed to success when it comes to gaining velocity. I could do nothing but feed a good 15 year old pitcher 10 Snickers a day and guess what?... He will most likely gain a lot of velocity over the next couple years. Maybe I could start the "Snicker Velocity Plan" using that kid as an example.
Hey, every kid is suppose to improve. It would be odd if they didn't. Some just improve more than others and at different times.
I have nothing against anything out there that can help someone improve. However, if there is a "Magic Bullet", it would be called natural ability. With desire and work that bullet seems to be very successful.
Clark Bars are also getting hard to find... but I love Baby Ruth's as well...
I would add pitching as a way to build arm strength PG. I think people get so caught up with the injury factor these days that they become afraid to pitch sometimes. Pitching is a hazardous activity but I believe pitching can also build arm strength... fwiw..
quote:The things that have been proven to increase velocity over the long run are...
1. Mechanics
2. Age
3. Size and strength
4. Arm speed
P.G. Staff has summed this up perfectly!
Just about any exercise that get's you out throwing at max effort regularly, can and will help! Weighted ball "Pyramid training" alone won't add velocity and done improperly can cause injury. Jogging doesn't build sprint times, ankle weights won't increase vertical leap and weighted bats don't increase bat speed, etc.
The application to training of "over and under load principles" I like when used with the P.G. Staff list 1 - 4. With my son, I used only the 7-ounce ball employed in our long toss. That is the lightest of the weighted baseballs at 40% heavier than your traditional baseball. That's plenty to be throwing I think. However, we did use much heavier balls; ten to 16 pounds in a modified throwing motion (no circling back behind the back) when he just stepped forward with throwing side foot) and threw with pronation into a back drop I built. From there we would warm-up, throw, long-toss, medium distance toss heavy (7oz.) then finish close and hard with regulation ball.
to each his own!
2 things I have learned from this thread and one rebuttal........
There is no magic formula to increase veloicty
HSBBW is a terrific resource and forum.....
The rebuttal is that I personally have implemented the Snicker/Baby Ruth/Clark bars program and my velocity with anything has gone down....Maybe I should have started at a younger age...
PG......When you get time there is a reply to the PM
There is no magic formula to increase veloicty
HSBBW is a terrific resource and forum.....
The rebuttal is that I personally have implemented the Snicker/Baby Ruth/Clark bars program and my velocity with anything has gone down....Maybe I should have started at a younger age...
PG......When you get time there is a reply to the PM
Oh Henry bars should be added to the list, but these days can only can be found in Canada!
Pitching can definetly add to ones arm strength, many pitchers do get stronger as the season wears on and many tend to regress, all pitchers are different.
Pitching should never be the primary means to gain velocity. Pitching (not throwing) often and from the mound is dangerous if the pitcher is not conditioned to do so, especially for younger players.
Pitching can definetly add to ones arm strength, many pitchers do get stronger as the season wears on and many tend to regress, all pitchers are different.
Pitching should never be the primary means to gain velocity. Pitching (not throwing) often and from the mound is dangerous if the pitcher is not conditioned to do so, especially for younger players.
I believe that Bob Gibson forced two great changes to the game of baseball...
1. He had the pitchers mound lowered
2. He caused the extinction of the Creamsicle (which by the way, only works with an overload philosophy).
Some things are unforgivable.
1. He had the pitchers mound lowered
2. He caused the extinction of the Creamsicle (which by the way, only works with an overload philosophy).
Some things are unforgivable.
Having been around this game and this website I have to say the more I read answers to people questions the more I know I won't be back here much anymore. Sadly some of the worst comnmets seem to come from the old timers. If most sports would have been following their thoughts we would not have the track and field, swimmers and yes even the tremendous athletes we now see in all levels of baseball. Yes overload and underload have contributed to some of the increases in performance along with the rest of their training improvments. Some of that thinking just like weighted balls is thinking outside the box for many on this site, glad you were not coaching many of the kids. Heck plyo training was outside of the box not too long ago as was the idea of marathon runners doing speed work, but hey mention a different thought on throwing or hitting and you guys come up with candy bar jokes, major leaguer never do it, (I guess tha football that ryan threw was just for fun). Another mentioned you can't repeat the mechanics with different weighted balls and another mentioned over/under load training doesn't improve batspeed, sorry I don't think you have ever really researched this or watched sessions with either swinging or throwing overload/underload training. Another mentioned you can get hurt with weighted balls, yes you can get hurt just like you can get hurt while doing long toss, lifting, running and any type of training that is not done correctly. Many players at lower levels do long toss incorrectly and could certainly get hurt and I am assuming we have all seen players with incorrect form in the weight room or on the track.
If you have never checked out some programs you might find out that they don't just throw weighted balls, in some of the programs there is a great warm up program, cord work working both sides of the body mostly done on balance boards and when the weighted work takes place it is full effort but with different parts of the throwing motion. This program also includes long toss programs and just as important it asks you to work proper form, measure your progress along the way from velocity to distance. Many batspeed programs work the same way, measured from beginning to end with % increases and set number of swings so you do not mechanically break down, just like a kid in a weight room when you see form break down on a lift youy don't want to break down and get hurt.
I guess my biggest complaint here is there are many folks with great information that could be passed on and that used to happen all the time but instead we get the "old timers" that start knocking it right away with no facts and much sarcasim, that does not help anyone especially people that might be new and could use some help and guidance.
I know many will not like this post thats fine, it is one of my last. This will allow me more time to continue working with players as they work on improving there abilities as they progress in this great game, oh and yes that will include some overload/underload training as opposed to the candy bar routine some have joked about on this site.
If you have never checked out some programs you might find out that they don't just throw weighted balls, in some of the programs there is a great warm up program, cord work working both sides of the body mostly done on balance boards and when the weighted work takes place it is full effort but with different parts of the throwing motion. This program also includes long toss programs and just as important it asks you to work proper form, measure your progress along the way from velocity to distance. Many batspeed programs work the same way, measured from beginning to end with % increases and set number of swings so you do not mechanically break down, just like a kid in a weight room when you see form break down on a lift youy don't want to break down and get hurt.
I guess my biggest complaint here is there are many folks with great information that could be passed on and that used to happen all the time but instead we get the "old timers" that start knocking it right away with no facts and much sarcasim, that does not help anyone especially people that might be new and could use some help and guidance.
I know many will not like this post thats fine, it is one of my last. This will allow me more time to continue working with players as they work on improving there abilities as they progress in this great game, oh and yes that will include some overload/underload training as opposed to the candy bar routine some have joked about on this site.
2bagger,
The beauty of a site like this allows people to share their opinion freely, it is up to a reader to judge what works for them or not. For example I have great respect for BUM and we have shared common ideas for a number of years. Just because, he or anyone else for that matter does not believe in an approach does not diminish my opinion of him.
I have always said that "through conflict comes clarity", so sometimes a good "fight" is healthy. I would not let this or any other thread make you not want to participate
The beauty of a site like this allows people to share their opinion freely, it is up to a reader to judge what works for them or not. For example I have great respect for BUM and we have shared common ideas for a number of years. Just because, he or anyone else for that matter does not believe in an approach does not diminish my opinion of him.
I have always said that "through conflict comes clarity", so sometimes a good "fight" is healthy. I would not let this or any other thread make you not want to participate
Bof, yes I understand that quite well, it is how there opinion is stated as I don't beleive that helps anyone. Just seems like we have gotten away from some of the original concepts of this site which has always been very valuable for players, parents and coaches alike.
BOF, I have profound respect for you, too.
This is a great site and it has been a wonderful place to share ideas. We all want what's best for our sons, and HSBBW reminds at time that this journey along with our sons can be both exhilirating and painful.
We share the joy with each other and revel in the achivement but in the end it is entirely up to these young men we help develop to perform on the field.
Whether we agree on the path to success is immaterial: Each of these young men is already immersed in our love, our forgiveness, and well on their way to their dreams not because of us, rather, but because of their hard work, discipline and love of the game. At some point in their development it has become them, not us.
Bum, Jr. is one such story, but there are a thousand others.
So if we share what has worked for us it can be embraced or dismissed but in the end we have shared. That's all that we can do.
This is a great site and it has been a wonderful place to share ideas. We all want what's best for our sons, and HSBBW reminds at time that this journey along with our sons can be both exhilirating and painful.
We share the joy with each other and revel in the achivement but in the end it is entirely up to these young men we help develop to perform on the field.
Whether we agree on the path to success is immaterial: Each of these young men is already immersed in our love, our forgiveness, and well on their way to their dreams not because of us, rather, but because of their hard work, discipline and love of the game. At some point in their development it has become them, not us.
Bum, Jr. is one such story, but there are a thousand others.
So if we share what has worked for us it can be embraced or dismissed but in the end we have shared. That's all that we can do.
quote:Originally posted by 2bagger:
I know many will not like this post thats fine, it is one of my last. This will allow me more time to continue working with players as they work on improving there abilities as they progress in this great game, oh and yes that will include some overload/underload training as opposed to the candy bar routine some have joked about on this site.
A person's ideas should be able to stand a little scrutiny and candy bar jokes.
I question everything I know about baseball. Much of what I was taught over the years was false or misleading.
2bagger,
The joke regarding candy bars wasn't meant to claim weighted balls are a joke. It certainly wasn't meant to belittle anyone's opinion.
Rather it was meant in reference to the thousands of products, programs and information out there about the subject of increasing velocity.
Google "Increase velocity pitching" and check the results. Make sure you have plenty of extra time.
I apologize if my comment regarding candy bars offended anyone. I live baseball nearly every hour of the day, year around. It's the job, and sometimes it actually helps to be a little less serious about it.
Bottom line... I do think that in addition to natural ability it is worthwhile to find out how most pitchers gained velocity. For example, Strasburg gained about 10 MPH while in college. Anyone know how that happened. One thing we do know is he had natural ability and he greatly improved his body. Whatever else he did, obviously worked very well... For him!
I'm pretty sure it wasn't the "Snicker Plan".
The joke regarding candy bars wasn't meant to claim weighted balls are a joke. It certainly wasn't meant to belittle anyone's opinion.
Rather it was meant in reference to the thousands of products, programs and information out there about the subject of increasing velocity.
Google "Increase velocity pitching" and check the results. Make sure you have plenty of extra time.
I apologize if my comment regarding candy bars offended anyone. I live baseball nearly every hour of the day, year around. It's the job, and sometimes it actually helps to be a little less serious about it.
Bottom line... I do think that in addition to natural ability it is worthwhile to find out how most pitchers gained velocity. For example, Strasburg gained about 10 MPH while in college. Anyone know how that happened. One thing we do know is he had natural ability and he greatly improved his body. Whatever else he did, obviously worked very well... For him!
I'm pretty sure it wasn't the "Snicker Plan".
There is no question in my mind that newer training methods have improved overall velocity in baseball. All you have to do is watch MLB games and see teams rolling out pitcher after pitcher throwing 92-95+. Players are working out more effectively at younger ages, but in the end I am starting to believe that hard throwers are born this way. Sure training can get them closer to their genetic maximum, but I am starting to believe that genetics are the dominant factor in achieving high velocities. I look at the kids my son’s age who are now pitching in college and they all pretty much were hard throwers in their youth.
As far as arguments go, I kind of miss some of the flamer’s we used to have here a few years ago.
Of course this is the best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y
As far as arguments go, I kind of miss some of the flamer’s we used to have here a few years ago.
Of course this is the best.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y