Intent to injure .... what would you do?

I'm surprised that you didn't go kick the coaches ***!! That's what I would have done.

Wow, for a coach of a 16u coach, thats pretty absurd to promote that kind of play. If the players feel thats what needs to be done then thats one thing.

By the way, how did the umpire react to all this? Warnings, etc?

Got a good Lawyer? JUST KIDDING. I agree with previous post about wanting to know if/what the Plate Umpire did in all situations.

First I'd yell and scream a lot. Then I'd vent on the hsbbweb. Then I'd find out who administers legion baseball and send them a copy of the tape.

More importantly, I hope your son recovers quickly and completely.

i wouldve raised my son to charge the opposing teams dugout and fight the other coach (kidding)

goodluck with a speedy recovery!

wow, that is really sad. I hope your son is ok. I would file some type of complaint on this coach.

Get your son healthy and change his mechanics. If one coach thinks he is cheating , all the coaches will think the same thing. Peaking will get you hurt even if you are not peaking. Perception is everything. The truth doesn't mater.

first and most important, is he ok?

i would think you wouldn't have to do anything. if the umpire heard it, your son's coach heard it, the fan's heard it...........they would bring it to the tourney director, on up the ladder.

i would guess at the least he'd be asked to address this. maybe.

I would definitely talk to whatever governing body was in charge here - Legion, tournament director, whomever. No one should be threatening to hurt anyone - and then in fact following through - in a baseball game, for heaven's sake. If the guy said "I'm going to kick your *** after the game" and then actually did it, would it be any different?

I don't get the whole "throw at the batter" mindset anyway. Catch43 says "if the players feel that's what needs to be done" - WHAT? Under what circumstances do you NEED to throw at anyone and risk injuring another player? The whole thing is just stupid. Play the game. If someone is stealing your signs, change them. Be smarter, not dumber.

#3 had a game against our cross-town rivals last week. First two at bats he hits a double, then they walk him. Third time up they bring in a sophomore who has been brought up just for this game. First pitch he drills #3 in the back, up high. If he hadn't moved he would have taken it in the side of the head. #3 takes his base - pitcher goes back to the dugout. He's done his "job". High fives from all his teammates and coaches. Head coach later said "sorry. Hope you don't think we did that on purpose." OH, NO... not at all!

Really? Is that the way you want to play the game? Isn't that just conceding that the hitter is better than you? Dumb.

I hope your son is feeling better this morning and can walk on his own power. It is horrible and I would have been fit to be tied.

My son, very different situation, was playing 2B and taken out intentionally by a player breaking up a DP. Spikes high hitting my son in the knee area chipping off a quarter sized piece of his lower femur. Lost his senior year in HS.

The umpire should have had control of the situation. I would think, particularly at the 16U level, that the coach should stand to be sanctioned, disciplined or barred from coaching for a period of time.

First I hope your son has a speedy recovery and if off the crutches quickly.

Secondly, there is no excuse for a coach throwing at a kid not once but twice in a 16 year old weekend tournament. I would offer this advice is this kind of situations "I tend to ask my self, if i had the chance what would I do difernet in this type of situation"

Obviously, the fault lies with the other coach and there is nothing your son did wrong. However, maybe you could have your son change this step in his pre bat routine. Since he has been doing this for a long time hopefully he could get his hands in the right place with out looking. If does not look and his hand do not get in the right place, I am sure you or his coach could tell him after his at bat.

If he goes on to play ball at a higher level, I am sure he will run into other coaches that will also make this same claim

Hope your son is fine and back playing soon.

I didn't get past the part where you said the COACH of the other team yelled that he was going to drill him in the earhole.

Did the homeplate Umpire hear this?

RJM

Tell your son I hope there is nothing serious with the knee--hopefully just a bruise

If I were you I would have had the next batter drop a bunt down the first base line so the batter and pitcher could meet---like in the old Giant/Dodger games--I firmly believe that what goes on between the lines stays between the lines--players can take care of business

At every level of baseball, intent to injure is supposed to be automatic ejection. If the ump heard this, he should have issued warnings to both the coach and the pitcher. Then, when the pitcher and coach get tossed, the league would know. Something doesn't sound right.


A DVD to the league office with just the coach yelling would be sufficient I think.

quote:

Originally posted by ctandc:
I didn't get past the part where you said the COACH of the other team yelled that he was going to drill him in the earhole.

Did the homeplate Umpire hear this?

If he did hear this, and from the OP, I dont know how he couldnt have....and DID NOTHING....

then he is not an umpire...He is a hack....

You nip this kind of **** in the bud, and then brace yourself to the whining of some of the fans, players and coaches who think you are "taking away part of the game".....

That might be part of the game in MLB, but it isnt supposed to be in scholastic or youth sports....

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
RJM
If I were you I would have had the next batter drop a bunt down the first base line so the batter and pitcher could meet---like in the old Giant/Dodger games--I firmly believe that what goes on between the lines stays between the lines--players can take care of business

And that is where this stuff needs to stay.....in the old giant/dodger games......of the past...

One hurt batsman, a rundown bunt play, some bad blood...a few fights....AND the coaches saying that the "umpires lost control of the game".....

Not a chance...I eject the coach AND pitcher in the
OP....

How the game contiued after this incindent is beyond me.

I would have pulled my team from the filed.

I'll try to respond cummulatively. My son is still on crutches this morning. He said he can put weight on his leg even though it hurts a lot. I just hope nothing got chipped or cracked in his knee. He has a doctor's appointment this afternoon.

We usually have reasonably good umpires at our tournaments. At the 16U level they're all high school and/or Legion certified umpires. This umpire did nothing when the threat occured. My son's coach said nothing since there are coaches who run at the mouth. I was in the stands. I only commented it was an &%$#@! thing to say.

When the coach went to the mound during his next at bat I yelled to my son to watch out. When the first pitch was at his head our coach came out of the dugout reminding the umpire of the threat and requesting the coach and pitcher be tossed. The umpire asked, "What threat?"

After getting kneecapped our coach asked the umpire if he had any idea what was going on and nearly got tossed. There weren't any warnings. My son eventually got up and finished the game. He couldn't play the next game. He only pinch hit. Chances are it's only a deep bruise. But he said it hurt a lot, had no lateral movement and couldn't play in the field. After pinch hitting he had to be run for.

This morning I contacted the owner of the tournaments. He requested I file a complaint and he'll consider banning the coach. He added they only come once a year before the Legion season. He's going to provide the coaches name so I can report him to his Legion district and national headquarters. They may not want an out of control twenty-five year old (guessing age) hot head coaching and being a role model.

I've considered filing charges (and later dropping them) just to let the coach pee his pants a little. My first reaction was to go to the other dugout and tell the coach I'll be waiting for him across the street from the stadium entrance after the game. Then I remembered I'm supposed to be a mature adult.

As the game got within minutes of the time limit (son's team was the home team and winning) the pitcher drilled the last two hitters in the back. I'm not sure what that was about. But it went in the report.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:

When the coach went to the mound during his next at bat I yelled to my son to watch out. When the first pitch was at his head our coach came out of the dugout reminding the umpire of the threat and requesting the coach and pitcher be tossed. The umpire asked, "What threat?"

That is disheartening to hear..... first off.. I hope your son recovers quickly and with no lingering effects....

There is a fine line between "keeping your ears out of my dugout" and being alert to what is going on around you.....

I wish your umpire had been more vigilant to what was going on around him...

Hope your son is ok and nothing serious.

What I don't get is, why didn't the umpire take control of the game? The responsibility (I am assuming) rested with him if he truely ignored much of this. How could he not hear it or see it.

Thats unfortunate the coach took that into his own hands there.Sounds like he is on a power trip. I would file a complaint.This isnt MLB baseball, you dont do certain things in High School

Whenever I was setting up in the box,I would look down at my feet to make sure they were set.In doing so,I was also able to see where the catcher set up inside or out. One time an opposing catcher saw this and apparently called for a bean.Hit me in the thigh.Pitcher is pulled by the coach and put into second base,since he had pitched a long 6 innings already. When I slide into second base on a delayed steal,I made sure I sent the message in return.

With some coaches,some players,theres just no thought in what they do.

quote:

He hit an rbi single.

The next time he came up the coach visited the mound. The next pitch was an 80+ fastball right at his head. He spun out of the way. The pitcher kneecapped him on the next pitch....
A dad was taping his at-bats. We have the entire incident on video plus a stadium full of witnesses.

Hope your son is OK. I'd like to see that video. You should post it on you-tube so all the world can see what went on....

My son smoked two hits off of an opposing team's ace pitcher's FB earlier this year. The next time up they threw nothing but curveballs and struck him out. That's how real pitchers and coaches take care of pesky hitters....

My son threw at a few heads at that age and older, always for cheap shots to one of his teammates or himself and never by coaches direction. (stepping on the first basemans foot. throwing an elbow into a player, other pitcher headhunting, that sort of thing.) Suprisingly seemed to always settle things down. Like he told me, "you can hit a guy if you want, or you can send a message"

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
My first reaction was to go to the other dugout and tell the coach I'll be waiting for him across the street from the stadium entrance after the game. Then I remembered I'm supposed to be a mature adult.

I would have done that. It's not about "being mature", it's about protecting your family and showing people what the consequences are if someone hurts a family member on purpose. He's over 18, you're over 18, so what's the problem.

I would not look back in the future.....

How is the catcher supposed to know you are "intending" to look at your feet and hands while not trying to get a glimpse at his signals etc???

The catcher has many options for dealing with peeking and assistance from coaches or baserunners, including crossing the batter up for an easy out.

As an aside the opposition and/or scouts/coaches watching won't think very highly of the batter's ability, confidence or style of play, if the he appears to be peeking before each pitch.......

quote:

Originally posted by CollegeParent:
I would not look back in the future.....

How is the catcher supposed to know you are "intending" to look at your feet and hands while not trying to get a glimpse at his signals etc???

The catcher has many options for dealing with peeking and assistance from coaches or baserunners, including crossing the batter up for an easy out.

As an aside the opposition and/or scouts/coaches watching won't think very highly of the batter's ability, confidence or style of play, if the he appears to be peeking before each pitch.......

I think this is very good advice.

If the facts are as alleged, you can file a criminal complaint against that coach (Remember the Marty McSorley hockey incident?) and/or you could also file a civil complaint for damages. Even if your son were peaking, there is no justification for an assault.

As you noted, you can alert league officials and hope that coach is fired.

Beyond that, you also had a choice to make to when you heard that threat. You could have told your son not to look back during that game and complained to league officals afterwards. Sure, it might have disrupted his rhythm and cost him a hit or two but he also might not be on crutches today? Somtimes, self-rightousness can get the better of people imho.

A smart catcher and pitcher would develop a system of signals to offset what the batter saw when he
"peeked" without even having the coaches involved

The fact is that the opp coach could have come out to talk to his pitcher/catcher, and on the way in, mentioned to your son that he should not look back anymore. There is the mature way to handle this on your part, like you are trying to do, then there is the hothead way, that would cause a lot of issues, some of the quite costly but would feel darn good. Son could have been bothered by "catcher interference", where he hit the catcher with the bat while swinging at the next pitch after being thrown at in the head. Then you could have offered the other coach an education is exactly what a liquid diet is like for the next 6-8 weeks. Fact of the matter is this. My son pitches, and throws quite hard. He understands that there are times when you need to "make a batter uncomfortable" There are a few reasons for this, and a batter looking back, for whatever reason, is one of them. He also knows to NEVER throw at someones head. That and the opp coaches comment/visit are the issue here, along with the intent to injure by the catcher. Report the scumbag coach and his big mouth, lesson learned for your son, and I honestly hope he feels better very soon.

First of all a hitter should never look back. You just dont look back. Whenever I see a kid looking back or looking down for location the first thing I think is the guy must not be very good if he thinks he needs to do that. The catcher should be setting up at a time when looking back before the pitch should not matter but thats not the point. A hitter looking back really p's players off. It doesnt matter why he was looking back he was looking back. Its just a no no in baseball.

Now having said that if this coach made a comment like that he is absolutely one dumb guy and if he went to the mound and told his guy to hit a player he is not only dumb he is a complete buffoon. I hope your son is ok. I hope he recovers soon and can continue to play very soon.

Personally I would talk to his coach and tell him you want him to deal with this. I would not file a suit. I would not file a complaint. I would tell his coach that you want him to call the other coach , the umpire and find out what they said. Tell them that its not going to be tolerated in the future and if it happens again you will have it on video and take the appropriate measures.

You dont want your son being the guy that is remembered for being the kid that sued for looking back at signals. "Even though he wasn't that is what will be said." You dont want him embroiled in something that could become a huge fiasco. These type of situations never go one sided when all is said and done. No one comes out completely clean. Your son will be made out to be a cheater and a cry baby. You will be made out to be a meddleing dad with a video camera. Is it really worth all of this?

You can be 100% right but that does not mean you will come out of it 100% unscathed. Go through the coach and let him do his job and protect his player and players. Something that he entirely failed to do in the first place judgeing from your story. I would have walked over to the opposing dugout after that first pitch and told that coach if the next pitch so much as sniffs my player I was going to personally come back and kick his a_ss. But hey , thats just me.

On second thought I would have walked over there and told him that after he came out of the dugout and made that idiotic statement. If the umpire had opened his mouth about what I said I would tell him if he was worth a dump I wouldnt have to kick that coaches a_ss.

I think a lot of good things have been said here. I hope your son is ok and yes, the coach has put himself in a very bad situation if you wanna pursue it. The missing piece, as been pointed out, is why the umpire didn't divert the whole thing to begin with. I am really confused about that...it makes no sense to me.

But RJM...this has been said, but I want to reiterate it. Your son has reached the limits of where looking back at his hands will be acceptable...it will be a problem from here on out. Varsity HS/summer ball is where this will not be tolerated anymore by some pitchers (notice the word "some") acting on their own (no coach instruction needed). Is it right? No. But it is what it is. He needs to find another way to remind himself.

Again, I hope he is ok. Register the complaint with the tournament...my younger son went through a similar scenario when he was 13...only he was drilled in the back on a coach's order (overheard by several and bragged about by the opposing pitcher on his way to the dugout) simply because he was pitching so well against the other team. The tournament directors took care of it despite the denials.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
My first reaction was to go to the other dugout and tell the coach I'll be waiting for him across the street from the stadium entrance after the game. Then I remembered I'm supposed to be a mature adult.


I would have done that. It's not about "being mature", it's about protecting your family and showing people what the consequences are if someone hurts a family member on purpose. He's over 18, you're over 18, so what's the problem.

What if the guy is twice as big as you and is known to have a black belt? Then how do we handle this? Probably the same way we would if he was twice as small and twice as old! I doubt that a meeting in the parking lot is likely to produce good results, either way.

BTW, I just read Coach May's advice and I like it better. Do what he said.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
A smart catcher and pitcher would develop a system of signals to offset what the batter saw when he
"peeked" without even having the coaches involved

I agree. Most teams do that now,it seems.I know we did if we felt our signs were being picked up

Let me add that even at the 14/13 age bracket the "smart" coach can make this happen

Another thought :

how do you prove intent to injure?

Hitting a batter is one thing but is it "intent to injure" ???

quote:

Son could have been bothered by "catcher interference", where he hit the catcher with the bat while swinging at the next pitch after being thrown at in the head.

Scouting report

"Player peeked at signs then tried to draw catchers interfernce"

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Another thought :

how do you prove intent to injure?

Hitting a batter is one thing but is it "intent to injure" ???

When the coach threatens to earhole a hitter, visits the mound and the next pitch would have been right in the earhole had the hitter not got out of the way. Or did he just want to tickle his ears?. To me, attempting to bean a hitter is attempting to cause a concussion. We all know that's often the result of a beaning. I'll claim that as intent to injure.

If a team wants to handle a perceived situation, it's much safer for the catcher to zip a throw about a foot in front of the hitter's face. It's much more controllable (save the Roseboro-Marichal story). I can't see attempting to earhole a hitter as anything else as intent to cause harm.

There's no structural damage. Just one hell of a bruise. I'm still going to make the Legion program aware of the coach.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
What if the guy is twice as big as you and is known to have a black belt? Then how do we handle this? Probably the same way we would if he was twice as small and twice as old! I doubt that a meeting in the parking lot is likely to produce good results, either way.

Come on PG, you should know size doesn't matter. I wouldn't care how big he is.
As for the "black belt", it's hard to do karate when you're rolling on the ground.
An the "good results" would be my kid watching me take up for him, no matter what. It's better then being soft filing lawsuits and such.